I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw blades
do not consist of HSS.

The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Typically, all saw blades are bimetal, since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

On Nov 30, 11:46*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw blades
do not consist of HSS.

What type of saw blade are you referring to? I'm assuming band saw,
hacksaw, sawzall, hole saw, etc?


The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Are you telling us, or asking?

I've only ever seen "bi-metal" referring to HSS teeth welded to a more
flexible/less hard backing.


Typically, all saw blades are bimetal,

No. You can get HCS (high-carbon steel) blades, bi-metal blades and
solid HSS blades (power hacksaw blades are commonly available as
either bi-metal or solid HSS).

since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

HSS is not simply high-carbon steel. There is a rather strict
technical definition of what HSS is composed, and HSS is not simply
high-carbon steel. Google is your friend.


Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

Can you provide specific examples? Perhaps we can take a look and
advise you...

Regards,

Robin

The quoted text didn't get marked as quoted GD Microsoft**** products

Robin's remarks are ***

wrote in message
...
On Nov 30, 11:46 pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw
blades
do not consist of HSS.

*** What type of saw blade are you referring to? I'm assuming band saw,
hacksaw, sawzall, hole saw, etc?

There have been countless references to all types of HSS saw blades here in
RCM.


The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

*** Are you telling us, or asking?

I'm saying this as a deterrent to the too-common usage of HSS in blades.

*** I've only ever seen "bi-metal" referring to HSS teeth welded to a more
flexible/less hard backing.

Are you referring to individual HSS teeth welded to steel, such as a
circular saw blade? (commonly misrepresented as a skilsaw)

Circular saw blades that have carbide teeth brazed to a mild steel disk, are
common, but I'm unaware of other common saw blades with individual brazed
teeth.

Are you saying HSS bends? As in HSS bandsaw blade? HSS hole saw blade formed
into a circle?
I disagree.

If you're the same Robin that's been partcipating in RCM discussions for
years (haven't seen you here for a while), I can't believe that you haven't
seen a broken HSS cutting tool, such as a HSS cutoff/parting tool.

Generally, broken cutoff/parting tools happen when they are improperly
supported or improperly loaded (side pressure), snap.. as in not flexible.


Typically, all saw blades are bimetal,

*** No. You can get HCS (high-carbon steel) blades, bi-metal blades and
solid HSS blades (power hacksaw blades are commonly available as
either bi-metal or solid HSS).

I'd like to see an example of a solid HSS saw blade. The only ones I'm aware
of are slitting blades (small like a Dremel saw, or larger like a slitting
blade typically for use on a mill).
And when they are flexed, they snap, which is my primary point.

since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel
continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

*** HSS is not simply high-carbon steel. There is a rather strict
technical definition of what HSS is composed, and HSS is not simply
high-carbon steel. Google is your friend.

I'm aware that HSS is not HCS, I tried to make that distinction by typing
out high carbon steel when I was referring to high carbon steel, I thought
that was obvious.


Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

*** Can you provide specific examples? Perhaps we can take a look and
advise you...

*** Regards,

*** Robin

A specific example woud be a slitting saw. Properly supported and properly
loaded in the direction of a cut, they perform fantasticlly.
However when flexed, they snap.

A HSS bandsaw would not flex. It couldn't be formed into a circle for
welding without breaking the HSS "tooth section". The same goes for hole saw
fabrication.

A HSS hacksaw blade would snap if not supported or used very cautiously,
loaded as lightly as a jewelers saw blade, essentially.

Summation: HSS does not bend. Thin cross-sections of HSS will snap.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

On Nov 30, 11:46*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw blades
do not consist of HSS.

The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Typically, all saw blades are bimetal, since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

--
WB
.........
metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

I guess I can disprove it, Bill.

I have hack saw blades that are solid HSS. I have hack saw blades
that are bi-metal - HSS edge with alloy or carbon steel back. And I
have hack saw blades that are solid carbon steel.

I have band saw blades that are bi-metal. I have band saw blades that
are solid carbon steel - same steel from teeth to back. I don't
happen to have any solid HSS band saw blades, but they are made.

I have circular saws that are solid HSS. I have circular saws that
are solid carbon or alloy steel. I don't recall seeing any bi-metal
circular saws, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

There are bi-metal hole saws, and solid carbon or alloy steel hole
saws.

Coping saws, hand saws and other human-powered woodworking saws are
typically carbon steel, but who knows what might be available?

You are correct that The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely
mean that a blade consists partly of HSS, or that a blade could. But
if you check those that are available, you'll find that that is
exactly what they are.

All saw blades are not bi-metal. As I've listed, some are, but others
are solid HSS or solid carbon or alloy steel.

Your knowledge concerning HSS is a bit off too, I'm afraid. It can
flex, and it can be filed. Not in the fully hardened state, maybe,
and not as well as some other steels, maybe, but it can.

John Martin

Thanks for your input, John. I have seen blade manufacturers state that
their blades are HSS, and often label them as HSS, but I'm not aware that
any version of HSS is soft enough to flex.

Because a package states that a blade is HSS isn't convincing to me.

A commonly available HSS in it's annealed state is the shank section of HSS
twist drills. In the annealed state HSS doesn't make a good cutting tool for
metalworking.
I'm fairly certain that the annealed shank of a drill or reamer wouldn't
bend before breaking, such as a Cleveland or other quality genuine HSS
drill, not HFeuroasia-somewhere cheese steel.

I wonder how many HSMs have found a way to bend or reshape a HSS drill or
reamer shank.

I would suggest that solid HSS hacksaw blades would not flex before
snapping.

A solid HSS hacksaw blade would have the brittle characteristics of a HSS
cutoff/parting blade/tool, with the extra fragility of having tooth gullets
ground into the edge.
Or why wouldn't it?

I can't recall ever hearing of a problem where a cutoff/parting tool became
bent.. they either snap (or chip) or they don't.

You might be implying that a 100+ inch length (of thin cross-section or any
other shape) of solid HSS could be formed into a circle to form a bandsaw
blade, then tensioned and run continuously in a loop, while applying
pressure to the blade edge.

I just wonder how you accept that this is logical, that's all.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"John Martin" wrote in message
...
On Nov 30, 11:46 pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw
blades
do not consist of HSS.

The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Typically, all saw blades are bimetal, since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel
continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

--
WB
.........
metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

I guess I can disprove it, Bill.

I have hack saw blades that are solid HSS. I have hack saw blades
that are bi-metal - HSS edge with alloy or carbon steel back. And I
have hack saw blades that are solid carbon steel.

I have band saw blades that are bi-metal. I have band saw blades that
are solid carbon steel - same steel from teeth to back. I don't
happen to have any solid HSS band saw blades, but they are made.

I have circular saws that are solid HSS. I have circular saws that
are solid carbon or alloy steel. I don't recall seeing any bi-metal
circular saws, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

There are bi-metal hole saws, and solid carbon or alloy steel hole
saws.

Coping saws, hand saws and other human-powered woodworking saws are
typically carbon steel, but who knows what might be available?

You are correct that The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely
mean that a blade consists partly of HSS, or that a blade could. But
if you check those that are available, you'll find that that is
exactly what they are.

All saw blades are not bi-metal. As I've listed, some are, but others
are solid HSS or solid carbon or alloy steel.

Your knowledge concerning HSS is a bit off too, I'm afraid. It can
flex, and it can be filed. Not in the fully hardened state, maybe,
and not as well as some other steels, maybe, but it can.

John Martin

On Dec 1, 2:15*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
Thanks for your input, John. I have seen blade manufacturers state that
their blades are HSS, and often label them as HSS, but I'm not aware that
any version of HSS is soft enough to flex.

Because a package states that a blade is HSS isn't convincing to me.

A commonly available HSS in it's annealed state is the shank section of HSS
twist drills. In the annealed state HSS doesn't make a good cutting tool for
metalworking.
I'm fairly certain that the annealed shank of a drill or reamer wouldn't
bend before breaking, such as a Cleveland or other quality genuine HSS
drill, not HFeuroasia-somewhere cheese steel.

I wonder how many HSMs have found a way to bend or reshape a HSS drill or
reamer shank.

I would suggest that solid HSS hacksaw blades would not flex before
snapping.

A solid HSS hacksaw blade would have the brittle characteristics of a HSS
cutoff/parting blade/tool, with the extra fragility of having tooth gullets
ground into the edge.
Or why wouldn't it?

I can't recall ever hearing of a problem where a cutoff/parting tool became
bent.. they either snap (or chip) or they don't.

You might be implying that a 100+ inch length (of thin cross-section or any
other shape) of solid HSS could be formed into a circle to form a bandsaw
blade, then tensioned and run continuously in a loop, while applying
pressure to the blade edge.

I just wonder how you accept that this is logical, that's all.

--
WB
-

- Show quoted text -

My brother-in-law manufactures band saw, hack saw and hole saw
blades. When the catalog says a blade is HSS, the package says it is
HSS, and it says on the blade that it is HSS, I tend to believe that
it is HSS. Maybe I'm too trusting, though.

Their Redstripe hack saw blades are solid HSS. They do flex, but not
as much as their bi-metal or carbon steel blades - which is why they
recommend them where the work is firmly held and the blade is not
subject to much twisting. They will snap if flexed too much.

They do not currently list a solid HSS band saw blade. They had one
in their 1985 catalog, which I have in front of me, but do not offer
it today. It was a thin blade - .020" or .025" against the .035" of
their typical bi-metal blades.

Now, this next part is just my own guess, because I don't in any way
speak for them. I believe that the solid HSS band saw blades were,
like the solid HSS hack saw blades, more subject to breakage from
twisting and flexing than the bi-metal blades. The bi-metal blades
were more subject to stripping teeth, although welding technology has
improved. But again, that's all just my guess.

Take almost any carbon steel hack saw blade. Bend it double, and roll
the bend around a bit. Listen carefully while you do it, and you just
may hear the cracking sounds as the blade cracks at the gullets.
Without cracking completely across. How can it do that? Since it's
solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your logic have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

Shouldn't it be impossible to make a spring from the very same
material you make a brittle cutting blade from? But you can do that,
can't you? So, maybe it's similarly possible to heat treat HSS to get
a wide range of characteristics, just as you can with the high carbon
steel.

I accept that it is logical because it is, to me, just that.
Logical. Not sure what it might take to convince you, though.

John Martin

I was following you right along John, until you brought up the high carbon
steel hypothesis.

*** Since it's solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your logic
have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

High carbon steel is easily annealed, but HSS not so much.
As I said earlier, the saw blade backing (backbone?) material is generally a
milder steel. It could be similar to steel banding material. It flexes very
easily and doesn't work harden.

Springs should not, and aren't usually made from brittle materials, because
they wouldn't serve their purpose.
Generally, when a spring is bent by hand for example, it bends (until the
radius becomes too small, such as around the corner/edge of a vise jaw).

We seem to be approaching the area of modulus of elasticity, which isn't at
all what I was referring to, as far as HSS being suitable (or even possible)
for use as a flexible blade material, such as a bandsaw blade.

I'm no metallurgist, but if HSS has a MoE, I'd guess that it wouldn't even
resemble mild steel, and I'm guessing that it would be significantly
different than high carbon steel and/or spring steel.

I remember using some hacksaw blades decades ago, that would snap completely
thru their width, and I believe they were high carbon steel entirely, with
very little or no annealing of the blade back material, so it was as brittle
(or nearly as brittle) as the tooth area.
I suspect that these may have been the cheapest blades available at that
time, and
I haven't encountered any hacksaw blades made like that, since then.

Modern, commonly available, general use hacksaw blades are typically a
softer/mild steel back material with a hardened tooth area (generally a
welded section added to the mild steel back material by continuous welding).
But it's highly unlikely that the hard tooth section is actually HSS, as HSS
does not bend.

To offer an answer to the question "wouldn't/can't the cracking be heard as
the blade is bent".. well yes, and that's because the tooth area is a strip
of high carbon steel mated to a flexible back material, but the tooth
strip/area is not likely to be HSS, because solid HSS doesn't bend.

So what good would a bandsaw blade be, if all the teeth cracked at the tooth
gullets?

I don't know if HSS can be combined with high carbon steel to create a HSS
alloy, but if it can, my swag would be that the percentage amount of HSS
would be small.

I strongly suspect that the concept of HSS bandsaw blades (or any other
flexible HSS blade) was created in a marketing department or firm.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html



"John Martin" wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 2:15 am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:

My brother-in-law manufactures band saw, hack saw and hole saw
blades. When the catalog says a blade is HSS, the package says it is
HSS, and it says on the blade that it is HSS, I tend to believe that
it is HSS. Maybe I'm too trusting, though.

Their Redstripe hack saw blades are solid HSS. They do flex, but not
as much as their bi-metal or carbon steel blades - which is why they
recommend them where the work is firmly held and the blade is not
subject to much twisting. They will snap if flexed too much.

They do not currently list a solid HSS band saw blade. They had one
in their 1985 catalog, which I have in front of me, but do not offer
it today. It was a thin blade - .020" or .025" against the .035" of
their typical bi-metal blades.

Now, this next part is just my own guess, because I don't in any way
speak for them. I believe that the solid HSS band saw blades were,
like the solid HSS hack saw blades, more subject to breakage from
twisting and flexing than the bi-metal blades. The bi-metal blades
were more subject to stripping teeth, although welding technology has
improved. But again, that's all just my guess.

Take almost any carbon steel hack saw blade. Bend it double, and roll
the bend around a bit. Listen carefully while you do it, and you just
may hear the cracking sounds as the blade cracks at the gullets.
Without cracking completely across. How can it do that? Since it's
solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your logic have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

Shouldn't it be impossible to make a spring from the very same
material you make a brittle cutting blade from? But you can do that,
can't you? So, maybe it's similarly possible to heat treat HSS to get
a wide range of characteristics, just as you can with the high carbon
steel.

I accept that it is logical because it is, to me, just that.
Logical. Not sure what it might take to convince you, though.

John Martin

Wild_Bill wrote:

Never considered the subject???

(snip)
Springs should not, and aren't usually made from brittle materials,
because they wouldn't serve their purpose.

Springs (old days) = AISI 1050R to 1090, and can be tempered from
tough(30-45Rc) to brittle (45-60Rc). Leaf springs are often in the 45 to
50 range). Yield and tensile are essentially the same as quenched.



Modern, commonly available, general use hacksaw blades are typically a
softer/mild steel back material with a hardened tooth area (generally a
welded section added to the mild steel back material by continuous
welding).

I'll have to check my ASM lit, (I just have the HT lit at home), for
materials commonly used for hack/band saw blades.

But it's highly unlikely that the hard tooth section is actually HSS, as
HSS does not bend.

(snip)


I don't know if HSS can be combined with high carbon steel to create a
HSS alloy,

You'd be right, different melt point, molecule (face/cubic centered),
different structure, etc. etc. It would be near impossible to join by
fusion weld.


I strongly suspect that the concept of HSS bandsaw blades (or any other
flexible HSS blade) was created in a marketing department or firm.


Probably right, the Bi-metal is more likely done using one of the "S" or
"H" type tool steels.

Matt

Thanks Matt, I'm interested in any further info you can offer.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"matthew maguire" wrote in message
...
Wild_Bill wrote:

Never considered the subject???

(snip)
Springs should not, and aren't usually made from brittle materials,
because they wouldn't serve their purpose.

Springs (old days) = AISI 1050R to 1090, and can be tempered from
tough(30-45Rc) to brittle (45-60Rc). Leaf springs are often in the 45 to
50 range). Yield and tensile are essentially the same as quenched.



Modern, commonly available, general use hacksaw blades are typically a
softer/mild steel back material with a hardened tooth area (generally a
welded section added to the mild steel back material by continuous
welding).

I'll have to check my ASM lit, (I just have the HT lit at home), for
materials commonly used for hack/band saw blades.

But it's highly unlikely that the hard tooth section is actually HSS, as
HSS does not bend.

(snip)


I don't know if HSS can be combined with high carbon steel to create a
HSS alloy,

You'd be right, different melt point, molecule (face/cubic centered),
different structure, etc. etc. It would be near impossible to join by
fusion weld.


I strongly suspect that the concept of HSS bandsaw blades (or any other
flexible HSS blade) was created in a marketing department or firm.


Probably right, the Bi-metal is more likely done using one of the "S" or
"H" type tool steels.

Matt

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...

snip

I'd like to see an example of a solid HSS saw blade. The only ones I'm
aware of are slitting blades (small like a Dremel saw, or larger like a
slitting blade typically for use on a mill).
And when they are flexed, they snap, which is my primary point.

I have two boxes of Sandvik HSS power hacksaw blades here, HSS through and
through, but they're quite thick and they're not expected to flex in
service. However, they do flex somewhat -- I don't know how much because
I've never broken one. But they are a bit bendy.

It may be they're tempered differently for use as a sawblade than they are
for a lathe cutting tool.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:24:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous John Martin
scrawled the following:


metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

I guess I can disprove it, Bill.

--big snip--

I have circular saws that are solid HSS. I have circular saws that
are solid carbon or alloy steel. I don't recall seeing any bi-metal
circular saws, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I use only bi-metal circular saw blades. They're soft-steel centered
with carbide tips brazed on.

--
The only difference between a rut and a grave...is in their dimensions.
-- Ellen Glasglow

In comaprison to John's suggestion to flex a hacksaw blade below,

I'm fairly certain what would happen if I were to take a 1/8"x1/2"
(cross-sectional dimension) x 4" length of HSS, which could be a
cutoff/parting blade, and attempt to bow it so that it deflects even 1/8" in
the center.

Uri Geller could do it. (Ahhh ****, I dunno why I even remembered that name
correctly)

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"John Martin" wrote in message
...

snippings

Take almost any carbon steel hack saw blade. Bend it double, and roll
the bend around a bit. Listen carefully while you do it, and you just
may hear the cracking sounds as the blade cracks at the gullets.
Without cracking completely across. How can it do that? Since it's
solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your logic have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

Shouldn't it be impossible to make a spring from the very same
material you make a brittle cutting blade from? But you can do that,
can't you? So, maybe it's similarly possible to heat treat HSS to get
a wide range of characteristics, just as you can with the high carbon
steel.

I accept that it is logical because it is, to me, just that.
Logical. Not sure what it might take to convince you, though.

John Martin

Thanks, Ed. I was interested in what you're perspective would be. I saw a
Starrett Redline 18" power hacksaw blade advertised as HSS (though not
specifically stated as solid HSS), about $22 each US, at Ace Hardware's
online store.

Power hacksaw blade duty is a long way from a flexing bandsaw blade, and
Starrett makes the claim that their Redline bandsaw blades are also HSS.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...

snip

I'd like to see an example of a solid HSS saw blade. The only ones I'm
aware of are slitting blades (small like a Dremel saw, or larger like a
slitting blade typically for use on a mill).
And when they are flexed, they snap, which is my primary point.

I have two boxes of Sandvik HSS power hacksaw blades here, HSS through and
through, but they're quite thick and they're not expected to flex in
service. However, they do flex somewhat -- I don't know how much because
I've never broken one. But they are a bit bendy.

It may be they're tempered differently for use as a sawblade than they are
for a lathe cutting tool.

--
Ed Huntress

That would be tri-metal, my good man.. to also include the braze filler.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:24:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous John Martin
scrawled the following:


metalworking projectswww.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html

I guess I can disprove it, Bill.

--big snip--

I have circular saws that are solid HSS. I have circular saws that
are solid carbon or alloy steel. I don't recall seeing any bi-metal
circular saws, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I use only bi-metal circular saw blades. They're soft-steel centered
with carbide tips brazed on.

--
The only difference between a rut and a grave...is in their dimensions.
-- Ellen Glasglow

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:47:04 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I was following you right along John, until you brought up the high carbon
steel hypothesis.

*** Since it's solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your logic
have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

High carbon steel is easily annealed, but HSS not so much.
As I said earlier, the saw blade backing (backbone?) material is generally a
milder steel. It could be similar to steel banding material. It flexes very
easily and doesn't work harden.

Springs should not, and aren't usually made from brittle materials, because
they wouldn't serve their purpose.
Generally, when a spring is bent by hand for example, it bends (until the
radius becomes too small, such as around the corner/edge of a vise jaw).

We seem to be approaching the area of modulus of elasticity, which isn't at
all what I was referring to, as far as HSS being suitable (or even possible)
for use as a flexible blade material, such as a bandsaw blade.

I'm no metallurgist, but if HSS has a MoE, I'd guess that it wouldn't even
resemble mild steel, and I'm guessing that it would be significantly
different than high carbon steel and/or spring steel.

The modulus of elasticity of all those alloys, in fact all steels,
falls in a very narrow range. But that has little to do with this
discussion.


I remember using some hacksaw blades decades ago, that would snap completely
thru their width, and I believe they were high carbon steel entirely, with
very little or no annealing of the blade back material, so it was as brittle
(or nearly as brittle) as the tooth area.
I suspect that these may have been the cheapest blades available at that
time, and
I haven't encountered any hacksaw blades made like that, since then.

Modern, commonly available, general use hacksaw blades are typically a
softer/mild steel back material with a hardened tooth area (generally a
welded section added to the mild steel back material by continuous welding).
But it's highly unlikely that the hard tooth section is actually HSS, as HSS
does not bend.

You need to clarify what you mean by "bend." Clearly HSS can bend
without breaking, just like any metal, as long as its ultimate tensile
strength is not exceeded. What's different about fully hard HSS,
compared to materials you might consider "springier" (using that term
very loosely), is that the difference between its yield and ultimate
tensile is very small. In other words, there's not much difference
between how much it can bend and spring back and the point where it
will break, i.e., it's brittle.

The difference between carbon steel hacksaw blades vs. HSS bimetal
blades when cutting difficult materials (SS, alloy steels) is
remarkable. Get yourself a carbon blade from a good manufacturer and a
Lenox (sorry, John g) bimetal blade and try cutting an allen wrench
in half. I doubt you'll make much of a dent with the carbon blade. The
bimetal blade will be a bit worse for the wear, but it will cut the
wrench.

The edge on good bimetal hole saws is clearly HSS -- otherwise the
speed required to run a 3" hole saw in steel without instantly dulling
the teeth would be abysmally slow. If you've ever tried using a carbon
steel twist drill in steel, you'll know what I mean.


To offer an answer to the question "wouldn't/can't the cracking be heard as
the blade is bent".. well yes, and that's because the tooth area is a strip
of high carbon steel mated to a flexible back material, but the tooth
strip/area is not likely to be HSS, because solid HSS doesn't bend.

There'd be no good reason to weld a carbon steel edge to a carbon
steel back. If the goal is a hard edge and softer back, then
differential hardening/tempering of the blade will accomplish that,
and is exactly what's done for carbon steel bandsaw blades.

So what good would a bandsaw blade be, if all the teeth cracked at the tooth
gullets?

As long as the teeth stay attached to the back, I don't see that the
cracks would be a problem.

--
Ned Simmons

Thanks Ned, but I can't help but see some holes in your remarks.

I was trying to steer away from the modulus characteristics because they
aren't relevent, but you're right, that all steels fall within a small
range, I forgot while I was thinking too hard about flexibility.

HSS can be annealed, but then it doesn't cut steel. The shank of a HSS drill
or reamer can be filed, but it's not a grade/level of hardness that would
make a good cutting tool for metalworking.
Full hard HSS cuts most steels very well, annealed does not.

Full hard HSS doesn't flex, it snaps.

Several times when I referred to a saw blade bending, I was talking about
traveling around bandsaw wheels, bending (and then straightening)
repeatedly.

I find it real dificult to read that you would suggest that it doesn't
matter if the tooth gullets in a saw blade were cracked. Yer yankin a chain,
but it's not mine. Good Grief.
With cracked gullets, I wouldn't expect anything less than a fairly sudden
blade failure, especially on a commercial horizontal bandsaw.

There are saw blades where all the teeth are interrupted, they're
carbide-toothed blades.

Bi-metal, in reference to most (if not all) saw blades really means nothing
more than a hard alloy strip for cutting is mated to a softer, more flexible
(and probably cheaper) material that makes up the majority of the width of
the blade.

The hard cutting strip (I referred to earlier as a coping saw blade) section
of a bi-metal saw blade is fused with a softer, more flexible backbone on
quality saw blades.
I've seen the illustrations in literature within the last few years, but
can't locate them now.

I've also seen the mating line between the hard cutting strip and the softer
backbone of quality holesaws and hacksaw blades (which was not the HAZ
transition between induction hardening and the annealed softer backbone of
cheaper blades).

The cutting strip of quality saw blades is a hard alloy, but it's not going
to be full hard HSS (the type of HSS that cuts steels) because HSS doesn't
bend around bandsaw wheels, nor would it be formed into circles from flat
blade stock to fabricate hole saws.

Ed mentioned HSS power hacksaw blades, but Starrett and some others keep
attaching HSS to their bandsaw blade features. There have been many
references to HSS saw blades here in RCM that probably aren't based upon
anything other than the packaging markings.
I believe it's crap, just marketing.

I did just look thru the Lenox online bandsaw material, and didn't find any
mention of HSS in bandsaw blades, but I might've missed it.
http://www.lenoxtools.com/enUS/Products/BI-METAL.html

I don't think I have implied that a carbon steel cutting strip would be
mated with a carbon steel backbone, as you say there would be no reason for
it.
I've maintained that the backbone of the blade will be a softer steel, more
flexible than the harder alloy used for the cutting edge, but not a HSS
cutting edge (because full hard HSS doesn't bend).

I don't own a hardness tester, but if I were to choose, I think a high
carbon steel drill would drill steel better than the annealed shank of a HSS
drill or reamer (properly fluted and sharpened equally).
The reason for my choice would be that the high carbon drill would resist
filing better than the annealed shank of a HSS drill or reamer.

I understand that you were using the hex/allen wrench for an example, but
for cutting those, a hacksaw wouldn't be a choice, only an abrasive disk.

It's a bit confusing when you agree that HSS is brittle, then go on to say
that the cutting edge of a bi-metal holesaw is clearly HSS.
Did it not occur to you that the brittle HSS would snap before being formed
into a circle.

My smallest Millers Falls holesaw is 7/16" and then I have some Lenox in
between, and the big 3" new ones are Starrett, not marked HSS, not marked
bi-metal, but the label reads High Speed Welded Edge. Starrett Safe-Flex
Hole Saw Variable Pitch.
There is a distinctly visible seam about 1/16" behind the deeper gullets,
all the way around the saw.
At the rear edge of the blade there is a wider welded area (looks more like
TIG) to join the circular top arbor plate to the blade. A similar looking
narrower weld joins the ends of the blade to form the circle.

I don't believe this Starrett holesaw is anywhere near the quality of a
commercial shop grade metal cutter, though.. just an example.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:47:04 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I was following you right along John, until you brought up the high carbon
steel hypothesis.

*** Since it's solid carbon steel, shouldn't the entire blade by your
logic
have the
brittle characteristics that the tooth edge does?

High carbon steel is easily annealed, but HSS not so much.
As I said earlier, the saw blade backing (backbone?) material is generally
a
milder steel. It could be similar to steel banding material. It flexes
very
easily and doesn't work harden.

Springs should not, and aren't usually made from brittle materials,
because
they wouldn't serve their purpose.
Generally, when a spring is bent by hand for example, it bends (until the
radius becomes too small, such as around the corner/edge of a vise jaw).

We seem to be approaching the area of modulus of elasticity, which isn't
at
all what I was referring to, as far as HSS being suitable (or even
possible)
for use as a flexible blade material, such as a bandsaw blade.

I'm no metallurgist, but if HSS has a MoE, I'd guess that it wouldn't even
resemble mild steel, and I'm guessing that it would be significantly
different than high carbon steel and/or spring steel.

The modulus of elasticity of all those alloys, in fact all steels,
falls in a very narrow range. But that has little to do with this
discussion.


I remember using some hacksaw blades decades ago, that would snap
completely
thru their width, and I believe they were high carbon steel entirely, with
very little or no annealing of the blade back material, so it was as
brittle
(or nearly as brittle) as the tooth area.
I suspect that these may have been the cheapest blades available at that
time, and
I haven't encountered any hacksaw blades made like that, since then.

Modern, commonly available, general use hacksaw blades are typically a
softer/mild steel back material with a hardened tooth area (generally a
welded section added to the mild steel back material by continuous
welding).
But it's highly unlikely that the hard tooth section is actually HSS, as
HSS
does not bend.

You need to clarify what you mean by "bend." Clearly HSS can bend
without breaking, just like any metal, as long as its ultimate tensile
strength is not exceeded. What's different about fully hard HSS,
compared to materials you might consider "springier" (using that term
very loosely), is that the difference between its yield and ultimate
tensile is very small. In other words, there's not much difference
between how much it can bend and spring back and the point where it
will break, i.e., it's brittle.

The difference between carbon steel hacksaw blades vs. HSS bimetal
blades when cutting difficult materials (SS, alloy steels) is
remarkable. Get yourself a carbon blade from a good manufacturer and a
Lenox (sorry, John g) bimetal blade and try cutting an allen wrench
in half. I doubt you'll make much of a dent with the carbon blade. The
bimetal blade will be a bit worse for the wear, but it will cut the
wrench.

The edge on good bimetal hole saws is clearly HSS -- otherwise the
speed required to run a 3" hole saw in steel without instantly dulling
the teeth would be abysmally slow. If you've ever tried using a carbon
steel twist drill in steel, you'll know what I mean.


To offer an answer to the question "wouldn't/can't the cracking be heard
as
the blade is bent".. well yes, and that's because the tooth area is a
strip
of high carbon steel mated to a flexible back material, but the tooth
strip/area is not likely to be HSS, because solid HSS doesn't bend.

There'd be no good reason to weld a carbon steel edge to a carbon
steel back. If the goal is a hard edge and softer back, then
differential hardening/tempering of the blade will accomplish that,
and is exactly what's done for carbon steel bandsaw blades.

So what good would a bandsaw blade be, if all the teeth cracked at the
tooth
gullets?

As long as the teeth stay attached to the back, I don't see that the
cracks would be a problem.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:04:57 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Thanks Ned, but I can't help but see some holes in your remarks.

I was trying to steer away from the modulus characteristics because they
aren't relevent, but you're right, that all steels fall within a small
range, I forgot while I was thinking too hard about flexibility.

HSS can be annealed, but then it doesn't cut steel. The shank of a HSS drill
or reamer can be filed, but it's not a grade/level of hardness that would
make a good cutting tool for metalworking.
Full hard HSS cuts most steels very well, annealed does not.

Full hard HSS doesn't flex, it snaps.

As I said before, you need to be more specific about these terms. If
by "flex" you mean, "deflects then springs back to its original
shape," then HSS does indeed flex. More, in fact, than a softer carbon
steel.

If "flex" means, "permanently deforms before it breaks," then yes, HSS
doesn't flex much. But the first definition fits better with the
everyday sense of flex.


Several times when I referred to a saw blade bending, I was talking about
traveling around bandsaw wheels, bending (and then straightening)
repeatedly.

I find it real dificult to read that you would suggest that it doesn't
matter if the tooth gullets in a saw blade were cracked. Yer yankin a chain,
but it's not mine. Good Grief.
With cracked gullets, I wouldn't expect anything less than a fairly sudden
blade failure, especially on a commercial horizontal bandsaw.

There are saw blades where all the teeth are interrupted, they're
carbide-toothed blades.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. If blades with independent teeth
work, why does it matter whether they were applied that way, or were
separated by cracking in use?


Bi-metal, in reference to most (if not all) saw blades really means nothing
more than a hard alloy strip for cutting is mated to a softer, more flexible
(and probably cheaper) material that makes up the majority of the width of
the blade.

That's your thesis. No one else has agreed yet.


The hard cutting strip (I referred to earlier as a coping saw blade) section
of a bi-metal saw blade is fused with a softer, more flexible backbone on
quality saw blades.
I've seen the illustrations in literature within the last few years, but
can't locate them now.

I've also seen the mating line between the hard cutting strip and the softer
backbone of quality holesaws and hacksaw blades (which was not the HAZ
transition between induction hardening and the annealed softer backbone of
cheaper blades).

The cutting strip of quality saw blades is a hard alloy, but it's not going
to be full hard HSS (the type of HSS that cuts steels) because HSS doesn't
bend around bandsaw wheels, nor would it be formed into circles from flat
blade stock to fabricate hole saws.

We haven't determined whether or not the HSS steel on the edge of a
bandsaw blade will bend to the radius of the wheel without fracturing.
The calculation is not difficult -- give it a shot.

As for hole saws, I agree that hardened HSS will not bend to the small
radii required. Presumably the edge is formed before heat treat.


Ed mentioned HSS power hacksaw blades, but Starrett and some others keep
attaching HSS to their bandsaw blade features. There have been many
references to HSS saw blades here in RCM that probably aren't based upon
anything other than the packaging markings.
I believe it's crap, just marketing.

I did just look thru the Lenox online bandsaw material, and didn't find any
mention of HSS in bandsaw blades, but I might've missed it.
http://www.lenoxtools.com/enUS/Products/BI-METAL.html

I don't think I have implied that a carbon steel cutting strip would be
mated with a carbon steel backbone, as you say there would be no reason for
it.
I've maintained that the backbone of the blade will be a softer steel, more
flexible than the harder alloy used for the cutting edge, but not a HSS
cutting edge (because full hard HSS doesn't bend).

Again, define your terms (bend, flexible).


I don't own a hardness tester, but if I were to choose, I think a high
carbon steel drill would drill steel better than the annealed shank of a HSS
drill or reamer (properly fluted and sharpened equally).
The reason for my choice would be that the high carbon drill would resist
filing better than the annealed shank of a HSS drill or reamer.

The carbon steel drill will not retain its hardness unless you run it
at a very low speed. This is not true of good bimetal hole saws.


I understand that you were using the hex/allen wrench for an example, but
for cutting those, a hacksaw wouldn't be a choice, only an abrasive disk.

I've cut many allen wrenches this way when an abrasive saw was not
handy. Lots of box and open end wrenches, too, but they're usually not
nearly as hard as allen wrenches.


It's a bit confusing when you agree that HSS is brittle, then go on to say
that the cutting edge of a bi-metal holesaw is clearly HSS.
Did it not occur to you that the brittle HSS would snap before being formed
into a circle.

It's formed before heat treat.


My smallest Millers Falls holesaw is 7/16" and then I have some Lenox in
between, and the big 3" new ones are Starrett, not marked HSS, not marked
bi-metal, but the label reads High Speed Welded Edge. Starrett Safe-Flex
Hole Saw Variable Pitch.
There is a distinctly visible seam about 1/16" behind the deeper gullets,
all the way around the saw.
At the rear edge of the blade there is a wider welded area (looks more like
TIG) to join the circular top arbor plate to the blade. A similar looking
narrower weld joins the ends of the blade to form the circle.

I don't believe this Starrett holesaw is anywhere near the quality of a
commercial shop grade metal cutter, though.. just an example.

Clearly a hole saw is not as fussy as an endmill, but that doesn't
mean that the edge can't be made from a similar material. Some spark
testing comparing hole saws with drills or milling cutters might be
instructive.

--
Ned Simmons

On Dec 1, 1:22*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:


Summation: HSS does not bend. Thin cross-sections of HSS will snap.


STOP saying "does not bend" - it is fully and completely wrong.

Get an indicator and a lever of some type and watch. Even carbide will
bend to some degree without shattering. Otherwise, your cutting tools
would shatter as soon as they touched the work. And that's ENTIRELY
enough about that.

Take a look at http://www.starrett.com/pages/934_bi...technology.cfm

The HSS strip is welded onto the flexible backing, and then the teeth
are ground into the blade. The grind SEEMS to finish past the weld
boundary, meaning there are individual HSS teeth created. The grind
likely occurs before the coil is wound up again, thus, the HSS strip
is never coiled while hard.

If you really want a good answer, call Starrett's band saw blade
facility at 336-789-5141 and ask for "someone in technical". Don't
make accusations and don't patronize these people - all they do is
make really good band saw blades!

ULTIMATELY you believe all these manufacturers are basically lying.
Well, run a good quality hole saw at HSS surface speed and see if it
melts. Simple. No magic. Absolute answer. NO NEED to post one more
reply until you've done this or similar.

Regards,

Robin

Wow, Ned.. you're sounding very much like a PhD that can't hear anything
that isn't spoken by another PhD.

Am I making stupid sounding muttering noises? It's everyday English, and
while I'm not an expert, it doesn't seem to mystify most folks I meet.

You ask me *again* to define flex, bend.. and what else did you need help
understanding?
This was a discussion, not an actual computer-modeled stress analysis of a
crisis situation unfolding in front of our eyes. Parameters don't need to be
defined in absolute terms.. common words usually suffice.

Several times when I referred to a saw blade bending, I was talking about
traveling around bandsaw wheels, bending (and then straightening)
repeatedly.
How was that not even remotely clear?

"deflects then springs back to its original shape,"
The subject material was never about selecting a good material for a mouth
harp.

Yes, a bandsaw blade will spring back to it's original shape (after it
breaks from the cracks originating in the tooth gullets).

That's exactly where I'm coming from. If blades with independent teeth
work, why does it matter whether they were applied that way, or were
separated by cracking in use?
Stress risers possibly into the backbone material, and lost teeth from a saw
blade doesn't make a very efficiet cutting tool.

Blades with independent teeth are typically brazed carbide, and cracks in
those gullets could mean that a larger pojectile may be released.

With cracked gullets, I wouldn't expect anything less than a fairly sudden
blade failure, especially on a commercial horizontal bandsaw.

Are you not familiar with the blade travel on a horizontal bandsaw? Can you
understand what continuous bending, flexing and maybe even twisting are
taking place (with high blade tension and a feed rate into the stationary
workpiece)?

Bi-metal, in reference to most (if not all) saw blades really means
nothing
more than a hard alloy strip for cutting is mated to a softer, more
flexible
(and probably cheaper) material that makes up the majority of the width of
the blade.

That's your thesis. No one else has agreed yet.
No, not my thesis, see, because I'm not writing a thesis, and I haven't a
clue why it seems you're taking the discussion as seriously as if getting a
degree depended upon it.
I could tolerate a few more degrees, there are only about 38 of 'em here
today.

Still, it's not my unproven opinion, it was precisely the way a blade
manufacturer illustrated and described the process of fabricating their
blades, which I had also explained.

We haven't determined whether or not the HSS steel on the edge of a
bandsaw blade will bend to the radius of the wheel without fracturing.
The calculation is not difficult -- give it a shot.
It depends on what you mean by bend, Ned. Are you referring to something
which is not straight? By how many degrees, minutes and seconds are you
suggesting?
Please be concise, but no more than 64 pages, please.

Most anyone that's seen HSS snap would conclude that it's not going to bend,
roll, conform to or wrap around a bandsaw wheel, but you're not sure about
that. OK.

As for hole saws, I agree that hardened HSS will not bend to the small
radii required. Presumably the edge is formed before heat treat.

Hole saws are made from roll stock, much like bandsaw blades are, but don't
believe that if you can't.
But then I would have referred to the diameter, anyway. Maybe your holesaws
are marked as radius though.

Again, define your terms (bend, flexible).

Or in your case, don't bend, be inflexible.

If the box states that the contents are HSS, then the contents couldn't
possibly be anything else.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


relevent content quoted above, it's pretty much all up there

Until I complete my new assignment Robin, I only have this to clarify "does
not bend" = not easily bent.. in an arc.. roughly estimating the diameter of
a bandsaw wheel (or radius for you physicists out there).

But also,
When the discussion refers to bandsaw blades numerous times, what is so
difficult about understanding "bend"?

When you've experienced HSS snapping, were you attempting to do something to
it other than bending? Flexing? Twisting? Just aggravating it maybe?

The method of bandsaw/holesaw and straight saw blade fabrication I referred
to earlier was the Traditional weld or laser bonding process, as I had
described.. adding a hard cutting material to the edge of a softer, flexible
backbone.

You have partially answered some of my question, but then based it upon your
own assumptions..

The HSS strip is welded onto the flexible backing, and then the teeth
are ground into the blade.

Or the teeth are milled.

Your words: SEEMS to, followed by likely occurs

OK, I shall not be patronizing because you said not to.

The Starrett page doesn't state that the "new" technology (at that time, see
article 2005 issue of Modern Metals) Bi-Metal Unique product blade material
is available in coil (roll was the wrong word) stock, only that straight
blades and portable band saw blades are available.

So what level of real production performance are you seeing with this
Bi-Metal Unique product?

Seems odd to exclude coil (not roll) stock.
Maybe the stuff can't be welded with a common blade welder.

When I looked for coil stock of the HSS with 8% Cobalt Bi-metal Unique, it
only showed portable bandsaw coil stock for the Flex-Back product, not the
Bi-Metal Unique product.

But then a footnote states.. bi-metal unique and M42 blades also available
100 per box (if they didn't mean 100' per box).

It's all highly confusing, good thing that they list phone numbers though.

What I've said is I think HSS bandsaw blades were created in a marketing
department or firm (based on my experiences that HSS does not bend (which
means not easily bent.. in an arc.. roughly estimating the diameter of a
bandsaw wheel).

The reason crapVista Window**** products Mail isn't quoting the couple of
random messages is because the posters are commenting thru TheGoogGroups, it
appears.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html



wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 1:22 am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:


Summation: HSS does not bend. Thin cross-sections of HSS will snap.


STOP saying "does not bend" - it is fully and completely wrong.

Get an indicator and a lever of some type and watch. Even carbide will
bend to some degree without shattering. Otherwise, your cutting tools
would shatter as soon as they touched the work. And that's ENTIRELY
enough about that.

Take a look at
http://www.starrett.com/pages/934_bi...technology.cfm

The HSS strip is welded onto the flexible backing, and then the teeth
are ground into the blade. The grind SEEMS to finish past the weld
boundary, meaning there are individual HSS teeth created. The grind
likely occurs before the coil is wound up again, thus, the HSS strip
is never coiled while hard.

If you really want a good answer, call Starrett's band saw blade
facility at 336-789-5141 and ask for "someone in technical". Don't
make accusations and don't patronize these people - all they do is
make really good band saw blades!

ULTIMATELY you believe all these manufacturers are basically lying.
Well, run a good quality hole saw at HSS surface speed and see if it
melts. Simple. No magic. Absolute answer. NO NEED to post one more
reply until you've done this or similar.

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 1, 6:57*pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:

While there are many points in your message to which I would love to
respond, I have only one request:

State your question in one sentence.

Regards,

Robin

My question has already been addressed, Robin

Warmest Regards

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 6:57 pm, "Wild_Bill" wrote:

While there are many points in your message to which I would love to
respond, I have only one request:

State your question in one sentence.

Regards,

Robin

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:32:34 -0500, the infamous "Wild_Bill"
scrawled the following:

That would be tri-metal, my good man.. to also include the braze filler.

Nah, metals in quantities of less than 1% don't count.

--
The only difference between a rut and a grave...is in their dimensions.
-- Ellen Glasglow

On 2008-12-01, Wild_Bill wrote:

[ ... ]

To offer an answer to the question "wouldn't/can't the cracking be heard as
the blade is bent".. well yes, and that's because the tooth area is a strip
of high carbon steel mated to a flexible back material, but the tooth
strip/area is not likely to be HSS, because solid HSS doesn't bend.

O.K. I propose another experiment:

1) Take about a #1 drill bit, and drill into mild steel just
enough to make a cone almost the diameter of the drill bit.

2) Then replace it with a #50 known HSS drill bit, shift the
workpiece just enough so the drill bit's point comes down on the
sloped surface of the previous cone. (I'm assuming a drill
press with little or no perceptible slop in the bearings).

3) Turn on the drill press, and bring the bit down into contact,
watching it closely (with ey protection, of course). When the
bit contacts the cone, does the bit proceed to drill right below
its contact point, or does it bend towards the center of the
cone?

4) If it bends, are you going to say that the drill bit is not
HSS?

5) Now -- with a solid carbide bit of the same size, it will
almost certainly break, but even it will bend a little before
breaking.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:19:53 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Wow, Ned.. you're sounding very much like a PhD that can't hear anything
that isn't spoken by another PhD.

Sorry, Bill, I thought you might be willing to invest a little effort
in learning something, when in fact it appears all you're interested
in is hand waving arguments that support your preconceived notion that
Starret, Lenox, Sandvik, et al are out to screw you.

--
Ned Simmons

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:46:35 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw blades
do not consist of HSS.

The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Typically, all saw blades are bimetal, since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

See
http://www.doallsawing.com/saw_blades.aspx
http://www.toolstop.co.uk/sandvik-39...-10-pack-p1869
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/webapp/..._192547_192327

I don't think these descriptions are marketing bull****. The blades
definitely perform.

A very worthwhile demonstration DoN. Not that I'm not unfamiliar with a
drill missing a centerpunch mark, though.

I welcome your demonstration as a generous sharing of wisdom in a kindly
fashion (which many of us in RCM have been accustomed to in your replies).

The part that remains a mystery to me is that HSS can be wrapped around
bandsaw wheels under enough tension to produce a note when plucked, and then
bend, deflect, flex and endure feed pressure into a workpiece while
continuously running around in a loop (plus the added continuous
twisting/straightening of a blade on a horizontal bandsaw).. a metal
composition which is a material that I know snaps because it's brittle (as
brittle as glass, for a rough estimation).

I can, however, fully understand that high carbon steel alloys would perform
as described above, due to applying specific controllable levels of
annealing (with anticipated results) to the materials.

For some, it seems to be beyond comprehension that anyone could possibly
doubt a manufacturer's claim? I question things, that's all. Some do, some
don't.

Your use of the term bend is highly suspect, BTW. Perhaps there is a code
that could be developed, for times when it's convenient to use common words
to express infinitely complex principles.

The conclusion that I've arrived at is that the teeth tips can be HSS, with
interruptions between the teeth, so in some cases (brands, processes) the
HSS is not a continuous, brittle strip enduring all the extreme conditions
described above.

I think I mighta just learnt something agin, and I can only hope that
doesn't happen again too soon.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2008-12-01, Wild_Bill wrote:

[ ... ]

To offer an answer to the question "wouldn't/can't the cracking be heard
as
the blade is bent".. well yes, and that's because the tooth area is a
strip
of high carbon steel mated to a flexible back material, but the tooth
strip/area is not likely to be HSS, because solid HSS doesn't bend.

O.K. I propose another experiment:

1) Take about a #1 drill bit, and drill into mild steel just
enough to make a cone almost the diameter of the drill bit.

2) Then replace it with a #50 known HSS drill bit, shift the
workpiece just enough so the drill bit's point comes down on the
sloped surface of the previous cone. (I'm assuming a drill
press with little or no perceptible slop in the bearings).

3) Turn on the drill press, and bring the bit down into contact,
watching it closely (with ey protection, of course). When the
bit contacts the cone, does the bit proceed to drill right below
its contact point, or does it bend towards the center of the
cone?

4) If it bends, are you going to say that the drill bit is not
HSS?

5) Now -- with a solid carbide bit of the same size, it will
almost certainly break, but even it will bend a little before
breaking.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Just put plainly Ned, it was your nagging, bitchy approach.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:19:53 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Wow, Ned.. you're sounding very much like a PhD that can't hear anything
that isn't spoken by another PhD.

Sorry, Bill, I thought you might be willing to invest a little effort
in learning something, when in fact it appears all you're interested
in is hand waving arguments that support your preconceived notion that
Starret, Lenox, Sandvik, et al are out to screw you.

--
Ned Simmons

Thanks for the references, Don. Here is another high performance blade
http://www.lenoxtools.com/enUS/Produ...-TECH_CT_.html

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:46:35 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I'm wondering if someone can disprove or absolutely confirm that saw
blades
do not consist of HSS.

The term Bimetal or bi-metal doesn't absolutely mean that a blade consists
partly of HSS, or that a blade could.

Typically, all saw blades are bimetal, since the blade backing section is
somewhat mild steel, and the tooth section is high carbon steel
continuously
welded along the length of the blade (including hole saws).

Envision a coping saw blade (tooth section) welded to a steel backing
section that makes up the overall width of the blade, such as a hacksaw,
bandsaw or hole saw blade. When the paint is removed from some new saw
blades, this is evident.

The little knowlege that I'm certain of concerning HSS is that;
1. it doesn't bend (or flex repeatedly)
2. it can't be filed with an ordinary file

When I see references to HSS saw blades, it sounds like a crock to me,
although these references are common.

See
http://www.doallsawing.com/saw_blades.aspx
http://www.toolstop.co.uk/sandvik-39...-10-pack-p1869
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/webapp/..._192547_192327

I don't think these descriptions are marketing bull****. The blades
definitely perform.

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:51:37 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
The part that remains a mystery to me is that HSS can be wrapped around
bandsaw wheels under enough tension to produce a note when plucked, and then
bend, deflect, flex and endure feed pressure into a workpiece while
continuously running around in a loop (plus the added continuous
twisting/straightening of a blade on a horizontal bandsaw).. a metal
composition which is a material that I know snaps because it's brittle (as
brittle as glass, for a rough estimation).

Example:-
A 62.5 micron fibre optic fibre can bend to 1" radius (2"dia). It won't work
properly because the light will tend to leak out, but it won't break. If you
scale that up, you get a 25 thou thick sheet of glass being able to bend
around a 15" diameter wheel without breaking.


Mark Rand
RTFM

Thanks for the example Mark. Do you know of any sources of online
information (or manuals, books) that describe interfacing lenses to fiber
optic cable/bundles not just for light transmission, but the fibrescope type
applications?

Do you know of sources for a visual image optic cable approximately 0.68mm
(.027") in diameter (enclosed in a sheath)?

I have a used fiberscope with a significant number of broken fibres. I'm
wondering if the cable can be replaced, because I suspect that it's unlkely
that it could be shortened or repaired.
The light carrying fibres (a loose bundle) in the fibrescope are fairly
coarse by comparison, looking more like they could actually be worked with
by hand.
The overall size of the cable is 3mm diameter x about 3.3M.

I can see a very small optical window/lens element at the tip, but I know
nothing about the end termination methods involved with fibreoptics.
The limited information that I've discovered about mating lenses in optical
equipment involves Canadian balsam (?) or special grades of epoxies.

I haven't seen the interface at the eyepiece end yet, and I'm curious about
how that's accomplished.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:51:37 -0500, "Wild_Bill"

The part that remains a mystery to me is that HSS can be wrapped around
bandsaw wheels under enough tension to produce a note when plucked, and
then
bend, deflect, flex and endure feed pressure into a workpiece while
continuously running around in a loop (plus the added continuous
twisting/straightening of a blade on a horizontal bandsaw).. a metal
composition which is a material that I know snaps because it's brittle (as
brittle as glass, for a rough estimation).

Example:-
A 62.5 micron fibre optic fibre can bend to 1" radius (2"dia). It won't
work
properly because the light will tend to leak out, but it won't break. If
you
scale that up, you get a 25 thou thick sheet of glass being able to bend
around a 15" diameter wheel without breaking.


Mark Rand
RTFM

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Just put plainly Ned, it was your nagging, bitchy approach.

Oh fercrissake, is this usenet or 7th grade?

--
Ned Simmons

Wild_Bill wrote:
Thanks Matt, I'm interested in any further info you can offer.


Well Wild_Bill;

I went searching for what in the HS steels could be welded successfully
to a med/high carbon backing. It looks like maybe all of the "M" HSS
grades could be joined without screwing up the carbides in the HSS part
and work OK.

None of the HS steels "like" to be normalized so there has to be some
provision for retarding the cooling after weld.

"T" series HSS austenitise at 2300 - 2375 (T9 and T15 a bit lower), "M"
series will go at ranges from 2150 - 2275. So either would have to be
hardened first, then tempered, then some provision for annealing
everything below the tooth edges would have to be made for a weld to be
made.

Not all the processes could be done quickly, heating and quench would
occur in a furnace, then temper, then if the HSS section was in a coil
it would need to go back up to over 1400 but less than 1600 to be joined
with the backing. After welding (quickly, while everything is straight)
induction units could raise the temp to 1600 with the teeth in some heat
sink medium. Then the slow part... For a full anneal the temp drop
cannot exceed 40 degrees per hour, for a quick "partial" anneal up to
200 is possible. I don't see how it could be "hot" coiled into a furnace
for the anneal (remember the teeth have to stay under 1600).

I couldn't work a solution for welding both parts annealed then do the
hardening, quench and draw, and then anneal again (the HSS part).

I also first thought after you posted that it probably was one of the
"H" (hot work tool steels) but it appears only the "T" and "M" types
would have any abrasion advantage over plain old AISI 1060 blades with
induction hardened teeth.

I liked the "M" series because the are less brittle than the "T" and
have almost as much abrasion resistance (much cheaper too)..


Matt

I think you read what you were replying to that time Ned.

Keep up the good work.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Just put plainly Ned, it was your nagging, bitchy approach.

Oh fercrissake, is this usenet or 7th grade?

--
Ned Simmons

Fantastic, thanks again Matt.

It is extremely unlikely that I would've ever found out that much, or as
concise information on my own.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"matthew maguire" wrote in message
...
Wild_Bill wrote:
Thanks Matt, I'm interested in any further info you can offer.


Well Wild_Bill;

I went searching for what in the HS steels could be welded successfully to
a med/high carbon backing. It looks like maybe all of the "M" HSS grades
could be joined without screwing up the carbides in the HSS part and work
OK.

None of the HS steels "like" to be normalized so there has to be some
provision for retarding the cooling after weld.

"T" series HSS austenitise at 2300 - 2375 (T9 and T15 a bit lower), "M"
series will go at ranges from 2150 - 2275. So either would have to be
hardened first, then tempered, then some provision for annealing
everything below the tooth edges would have to be made for a weld to be
made.

Not all the processes could be done quickly, heating and quench would
occur in a furnace, then temper, then if the HSS section was in a coil it
would need to go back up to over 1400 but less than 1600 to be joined with
the backing. After welding (quickly, while everything is straight)
induction units could raise the temp to 1600 with the teeth in some heat
sink medium. Then the slow part... For a full anneal the temp drop cannot
exceed 40 degrees per hour, for a quick "partial" anneal up to 200 is
possible. I don't see how it could be "hot" coiled into a furnace for the
anneal (remember the teeth have to stay under 1600).

I couldn't work a solution for welding both parts annealed then do the
hardening, quench and draw, and then anneal again (the HSS part).

I also first thought after you posted that it probably was one of the "H"
(hot work tool steels) but it appears only the "T" and "M" types would
have any abrasion advantage over plain old AISI 1060 blades with induction
hardened teeth.

I liked the "M" series because the are less brittle than the "T" and have
almost as much abrasion resistance (much cheaper too)..


Matt

On 2008-12-03, Wild_Bill wrote:
Thanks for the example Mark. Do you know of any sources of online
information (or manuals, books) that describe interfacing lenses to fiber
optic cable/bundles not just for light transmission, but the fibrescope type
applications?

Do you know of sources for a visual image optic cable approximately 0.68mm
(.027") in diameter (enclosed in a sheath)?

I have a used fiberscope with a significant number of broken fibres. I'm
wondering if the cable can be replaced, because I suspect that it's unlkely
that it could be shortened or repaired.
The light carrying fibres (a loose bundle) in the fibrescope are fairly
coarse by comparison, looking more like they could actually be worked with
by hand.
The overall size of the cable is 3mm diameter x about 3.3M.

I can see a very small optical window/lens element at the tip, but I know
nothing about the end termination methods involved with fibreoptics.

The fibers are typically two different glasses, selected for
different index of refraction, one solid as the center, and the other
hollow around the first. They are heated and the ends drawn apart, and
the outer sheath collapses onto the inner core and they fuse together.

I have seen rigid fiber optic devices which have been made by
drawing down the center of a bundle, then cutting it in the middle,
grinding polishing it. The result is a bundle which will enlarge or
shrink an image. You can get these from Edmund Scientific or Edmund
Optics (I forget which sells that) as demonstration pieces.

You can also get ones where the fibers have been fused together
and then twisted while still hot enough for the glass to bend, so the
image is twisted 180 degrees.

I've also seen fiber optic bundles fused together in a
hex, then the center drawn out to make a smaller hex bundle, gathered
with more hex bundles to farm a larger one, then drawn again through
about three cycles -- then cut into thin slices and the inner core is
removed by chemical etching leaving a honeycomb prior to coating (vacuum
evaporation of metal) to form a channel for electrons as part of an
image intensifier tube. This was called a microchannel, and was used to
intensify the tiny signals which were common in serious astronomy. The
electrons bouncing along the tubes from side to side, and accelerated by
a voltage difference between the ends of the tubes, keep kicking out
multiple additional electrons every time they hit, thus increasing the
signal strength.

Before microchannels -- larger intensifier tubes were made with
rigid fiber optic bundles ground to a curve to match the electrostatic
focusing in the tube, and ground to flat on the end -- joined to two
other similar intensifier tubes by a silicone grease to couple the fiber
images together.

The limited information that I've discovered about mating lenses in optical
equipment involves Canadian balsam (?) or special grades of epoxies.

This is normally for joining the surfaces (usually curved) of
different glasses to build a lens with just the needed index of
refraction. You'll find a lot of these joints in the more complex
camera lenses (faster and zoom lenses), and even the early Zeiss Tessar
design had four elements -- the rear two cemented together, then a space
for the iris diaphragm and shutter, and then two more elements which had
an air gap between them -- and for folding cameras typically had the
spacing between these two lens elements adjustable for focusing.

I haven't seen the interface at the eyepiece end yet, and I'm curious about
how that's accomplished.

Well ... typically the bundle for the image scopes is made by
laying out fibers one at a time into a precise pattern, then fusing the
ends (leaving the majority of the length loose for flexibility) and
polishing the ends. The objective lens focuses the image on the flat
polished surface at one end, and the eyepiece picks it up from the other
end.

Aside from the occasional broken fibers (which increase with
use), there are also occasionally misplaced fibers which move a dot from
one place to another.

If *I* were to try to make an optimum quality image fiber
bundle, what I would try to do is to lay the fibers in a loop and
optically weld the ends together. (I've seen the device which does this
with fiber optic lines used for telephone and network here in this
neighborhood, and it is a neat device.) Anyway -- the welds would be
scattered around the bundle, and the clamped group of fibers would be
fused together (again two glass types -- the center for the optical
signal, and the outer to protect the inner fiber and to fuse to adjacent
ones). Once about two inches or so of fiber is fused into a rigid
block, I would then diamond saw through the block and polish both ends
to optically flat. This way, the fibers could not shift where the images
are formed, and it does not really matter how much they shift in
between, as long as they don't get broken. That's what the sheath is to
prevent.

------------------------------------------------------------

But I *think* that the original mention of how small a radius
bend you can put in a glass fiber was to suggest that thin HSS (which
you had said was as brittle as glass) could be bent to an equally tight
radius if it was no thicker than the glass fiber's diameter.

IIRC -- when someone in this thread mentioned solid HSS bandsaw
blades, he did say that they were thinner than the usual carbon steel
blades.

And from bending which I have observed in a HSS (actually cobalt
steel) parting blade with a maximum thickness of 1/8", I would say that
that can be bent into a circle of about ten feet diameter or so. And
that is a *lot* thicker than any bandsaw blade which I have ever used.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:33:34 -0500, the infamous Ned Simmons
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Just put plainly Ned, it was your nagging, bitchy approach.

Oh fercrissake, is this usenet or 7th grade?

C: Both of the above.

Kids, please learn to play nicely with one another now. Thank you.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Your reply is a great one, and a large serving of stuff to digest, DoN.
Thanks for including the detailed info concerning the glass fibers. I had no
previous knowlege of the glass strands other than some of the early ones
were made in tall tower-type structures at one point IIRC.

I hadn't realized the necessity to keep the individual fibers in correct
order/orientation to reproduce a proper image until you mentioned it. Yeah..
I could see where that would matter, heh.

The ITI brand fiberscope I mentioned was apparently a fairly good one, when
it was new. It's one of the flexible ones (3mm dia.) that can be articulated
near the tip by two fine stranded wire cables tied to a knob on the
hand/eyepiece/body.
Clever little gizmo that works similarly to the earlier mechanical remote
control automotive outside side/rear-view mirrors (but only two opposed
directions, not four).

I took Mark's mention of bending a thin glass fiber to suggest it would be
possible with thin HSS, as you mentioned.
I was originally thinking in terms of the traditional process of producing
bandsaw blades, which would require the cutting edge to be .025" or .035"
thick (as those are common thicknesses of bandsaw blades).
From there, the strip of hard material that's typically the hardened tooth
material area on bandsaw blades, is wider than the thickness by many times
(looks like about 5 times wider or more).
The wheels on my 4x6 bandsaw are maybe 10" diameter, a port-a-band maybe
smaller, but larger wheels on big saws naturally, and the possibility of
running a brittle material around wheels with the numerous high forces
mentioned earlier, seemed highly unlikely to me.

Previous to Mark's example, Robin had referred to a somewhat new technology
developed by Starrett, where two thinner ribbons/foils of HSS are fused
to/with the region near the edge of the supporting band material, resulting
in a "steel on HSS sandwich" at one edge of the band.
Then, when the tooth profiles are ground or milled into the edge of this
region, it leaves less than the full width of the HSS ribbons/foils to
bend/flex/twist etc. (or possibly even interrupted HSS-clad teeth, the image
wasn't very detailed and the description not very specific).

Ed had mentioned Sandvik solid HSS power hacksaw blades being thick but
somewhat bendy.

As per your suggestion of 1/8" cobalt making a wrap around maybe a 10'
wheel..
An extremely long 1/8" thick solid HSS saw blade would've been handy for the
cruise ship retrofitters that were assigned the task of adding a section in
the center of a cruise ship, so they proceeded to cut the ship in half, and
added the section.
I don't know that the story was true, but there was an online story about
it, maybe a couple of years ago.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

The fibers are typically two different glasses, selected for
different index of refraction, one solid as the center, and the other
hollow around the first. They are heated and the ends drawn apart, and
the outer sheath collapses onto the inner core and they fuse together.

I have seen rigid fiber optic devices which have been made by
drawing down the center of a bundle, then cutting it in the middle,
grinding polishing it. The result is a bundle which will enlarge or
shrink an image. You can get these from Edmund Scientific or Edmund
Optics (I forget which sells that) as demonstration pieces.

You can also get ones where the fibers have been fused together
and then twisted while still hot enough for the glass to bend, so the
image is twisted 180 degrees.

I've also seen fiber optic bundles fused together in a
hex, then the center drawn out to make a smaller hex bundle, gathered
with more hex bundles to farm a larger one, then drawn again through
about three cycles -- then cut into thin slices and the inner core is
removed by chemical etching leaving a honeycomb prior to coating (vacuum
evaporation of metal) to form a channel for electrons as part of an
image intensifier tube. This was called a microchannel, and was used to
intensify the tiny signals which were common in serious astronomy. The
electrons bouncing along the tubes from side to side, and accelerated by
a voltage difference between the ends of the tubes, keep kicking out
multiple additional electrons every time they hit, thus increasing the
signal strength.

Before microchannels -- larger intensifier tubes were made with
rigid fiber optic bundles ground to a curve to match the electrostatic
focusing in the tube, and ground to flat on the end -- joined to two
other similar intensifier tubes by a silicone grease to couple the fiber
images together.

The limited information that I've discovered about mating lenses in
optical
equipment involves Canadian balsam (?) or special grades of epoxies.

This is normally for joining the surfaces (usually curved) of
different glasses to build a lens with just the needed index of
refraction. You'll find a lot of these joints in the more complex
camera lenses (faster and zoom lenses), and even the early Zeiss Tessar
design had four elements -- the rear two cemented together, then a space
for the iris diaphragm and shutter, and then two more elements which had
an air gap between them -- and for folding cameras typically had the
spacing between these two lens elements adjustable for focusing.

I haven't seen the interface at the eyepiece end yet, and I'm curious
about
how that's accomplished.

Well ... typically the bundle for the image scopes is made by
laying out fibers one at a time into a precise pattern, then fusing the
ends (leaving the majority of the length loose for flexibility) and
polishing the ends. The objective lens focuses the image on the flat
polished surface at one end, and the eyepiece picks it up from the other
end.

Aside from the occasional broken fibers (which increase with
use), there are also occasionally misplaced fibers which move a dot from
one place to another.

If *I* were to try to make an optimum quality image fiber
bundle, what I would try to do is to lay the fibers in a loop and
optically weld the ends together. (I've seen the device which does this
with fiber optic lines used for telephone and network here in this
neighborhood, and it is a neat device.) Anyway -- the welds would be
scattered around the bundle, and the clamped group of fibers would be
fused together (again two glass types -- the center for the optical
signal, and the outer to protect the inner fiber and to fuse to adjacent
ones). Once about two inches or so of fiber is fused into a rigid
block, I would then diamond saw through the block and polish both ends
to optically flat. This way, the fibers could not shift where the images
are formed, and it does not really matter how much they shift in
between, as long as they don't get broken. That's what the sheath is to
prevent.

------------------------------------------------------------

But I *think* that the original mention of how small a radius
bend you can put in a glass fiber was to suggest that thin HSS (which
you had said was as brittle as glass) could be bent to an equally tight
radius if it was no thicker than the glass fiber's diameter.

IIRC -- when someone in this thread mentioned solid HSS bandsaw
blades, he did say that they were thinner than the usual carbon steel
blades.

And from bending which I have observed in a HSS (actually cobalt
steel) parting blade with a maximum thickness of 1/8", I would say that
that can be bent into a circle of about ten feet diameter or so. And
that is a *lot* thicker than any bandsaw blade which I have ever used.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I don't remember what it was that I've read about usenet that goes something
like; at any point in a discussion (or maybe eventually in every discussion)
a lot of name-calling starts, followed by someone being compared to Hitler,
and maybe followed by some other predictable (customary, traditional?)
trends.

Downright ****in goofy, and often outrageously funny place sometimes.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:33:34 -0500, the infamous Ned Simmons
scrawled the following:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Just put plainly Ned, it was your nagging, bitchy approach.

Oh fercrissake, is this usenet or 7th grade?

C: Both of the above.

Kids, please learn to play nicely with one another now. Thank you.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On 2008-12-03, Wild_Bill wrote:
I don't remember what it was that I've read about usenet that goes something
like; at any point in a discussion (or maybe eventually in every discussion)
a lot of name-calling starts, followed by someone being compared to Hitler,
and maybe followed by some other predictable (customary, traditional?)
trends.

It is called "Godwin's Law", and it declares the thread in which
the invocation of the term "Nazi" (or perhaps also Hitler) to be
terminated. Good advice, I think. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---