Errol Groff wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:09:48 -0600, RoyJ
wrote:



To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.



Roy:

I don't have any experience with a cold saw but PLENTY of experience
with a bandsaw. We have the same situation, inexperienced students
shoving anything through the saw, sometime a brand new blade can be
demolished almost as soon as it is installed.

You should see what happens in the machine shops which are open out of
hours. I was in a postgraduate machine shop a while back, and there was
a tiny vertical bandsaw there. One of those machines which is only
really meant for cutting plywood. A guy was trying to cut a 5" x 3" cast
aluminium ingot with the saw. One of those unmarked ingots which is full
of sand. I told him that perhaps he should wait until the morning and
use a more appropriate saw in a different shop, but no, the research
project was too urgent :-).

A power hacksaw may be another possibility for your shop. They cut
straight and the blades are a lot cheaper than cold saw blades.

Best wishes,

Chris

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the machine.
You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. But maybe if his
department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to do better.
'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably never do.

Surely you could have one of those traditional American perp walks? :-)

Chris

I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states
vs blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12
horizontal band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty
ratty, needs to be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm
pushing for a bandsaw because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of
long sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything
including stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly.
I can't depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:09:48 -0600, RoyJ
wrote:



To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.


Roy:

I don't have any experience with a cold saw but PLENTY of experience
with a bandsaw. We have the same situation, inexperienced students
shoving anything through the saw, sometime a brand new blade can be
demolished almost as soon as it is installed.

Band saw blades while not cheap are much more affordable in a student
shop. Maybe a hands on demo with a sign off sheet before students are
allowed to use the saw would help.

Good luck with a losing battle!

Errol Groff

Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Technical High School
Danielson, CT

RoyJ wrote:

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.


I do not believe anyone that likes you will tell you to get the cold saw in your case.

Cold saws are neat when you know they will only cut suitable materials.


Wes

Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the machine.
You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. But maybe if his
department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to do better.
'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably never do.

I feel your pain,
Bob

--FWIW I'd get the cold saw to supplement the bandsaw. I've had a
cold saw for two decades and I'd be lost without it. Once you've got it and
use it you'll find the bandsaw will last a lot longer due to its reduced
work load. Heh.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Never thought I'd live to see
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : our "iron curtain" crumble...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"RoyJ" wrote in message
news
I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states vs
blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12 horizontal
band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty ratty, needs to
be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm pushing for a bandsaw
because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of long
sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything including
stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly. I can't
depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade life
of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid I'd
be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not going
to happen on my watch.

Pity that you have to choose, eh?

Altho a lot depends on what you make/setup you buy, a band saw does seem
more practical in overall general use.
The advantage to a cold saw is near-finished cut faces, high accuracy (.005
or better reproducibility in some cases), and nice centering vises, good for
short material.

A properly set up band saw can give .015 reproducibility, but this is all
proly moot in a proto shop.

On a band saw, once tooth loss occurs, you can stem its progression by
dremel-ing a "ramp" from the no-tooth region up to the full-tooth region, so
no more teeth break. I usually give about a 1/2"-1" "lead" up to
full-tooth, on 1/2" 12-tooth blades.

If blade breakage is a problem, get a good blade welder. I've almost never
had a blade re-break at a weld, and have used "patch-work" blades, of 10 or
more welds, in 130" 1" blades. Of course, this won't help if the blade is
simply dull all the way around.

Steamboat mentioned "lightening the burden", which is a very good point,
esp. when you "match" saw to material.
For example, a radial arm saw or chop saw with carbide can be great for
aluminum, very nice cuts.
Use progressive cuts depth-wise on thick wide alum. Sometimes this is the
only solution for things like long length of 14" wide x 1/4" alum.

But the best supplement to a band saw -- an almost necessary one -- is a
cheap chop saw with an abrasive blade (as thin as is practical, 3/32 being a
good compromise), which serves as a very efficient and economical
brute-force solution for "ugly" stuff -- thin crappy mat'l, drill rod, SS,
hard to hold stuff, thin-wall tubing, you name it -- a god-sent solution
that will save boucou $$ in blades, time, and misery.

You can also put an abrasive blade on an RAS, as well. I've done this to
cut sheets of spring steel, using progressive-depth cuts as well, if thick
mat'l.

It's best to push the RAS blade into the material, rather than pull, but you
do what you have to do.
You can also "rip" alum lengthwise on a RAS/carbide, for example, getting
two pieces of angle out of channel, or channel out of tubing, etc.

Consider rigging up recirc. coolant if your saw doesn't already have it.
Altho a bandsaw blade appears to run over-all cool, local tooth temps can
get mighty high, esp. on SS -- watch the puffs of smoke come off SS, even on
lite cuts.

Consider *two* cheapie band saws, one set up just for ferrous (steel, cast
iron, SS -- fine-ish tooth and slowwww), and the other for non-ferrous
(brass alum) -- the roughest tooth you can buy, at the fastest speed, which
just whizzes through the material. This will overall save time and blades,
because people just don't like changing belts and blades.

Also, consider using a VFD with a 3-ph motor, for much wider speed control.
You may still need to change belt pulley settings, but not as often.

--
PV'd

Errol Groff wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:09:48 -0600, RoyJ
wrote:



To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.



Roy:

I don't have any experience with a cold saw but PLENTY of experience
with a bandsaw. We have the same situation, inexperienced students
shoving anything through the saw, sometime a brand new blade can be
demolished almost as soon as it is installed.


Sounds like what used to happen down the votech college in Wichita. I
used to attend the machining evening class and someone in the day
classes used to ruin the band saw blades in short order. It annoyed the
instructors and on a number of occasions I ended up sawing 2" aluminium
plate by hand because it was quicker than using the saw.
Band saw blades while not cheap are much more affordable in a student
shop. Maybe a hands on demo with a sign off sheet before students are
allowed to use the saw would help.

Good luck with a losing battle!

Errol Groff

Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Technical High School
Danielson, CT

I get fairly tired of 0800 e-mails from the lab supervisor detailing the
transgressions from the day or weekend before. Then I walk around and
see what projects have newly minted stainless steel parts, congratulate
the team on their choice of an almost indestructible material, and the
perp steps forward to take the praise (blame). Current plan is to get
all of the alloy steels including 4140, drill rod, tool steels, spring
steels and stainless loaded into racks with "see lab supervisor before
using" signs. THEN I have a big stick to club them with.

This semester I made a big deal of using virgin 6061-T6 aluminum,
extolling the virtues of it's 30kpsi tensile strength. I made it the
most easily accessable material, picked a bunch of common sizes from
..032" to .250". I'm getting MUCH better life out of the vertical bandsaw
blades.

Now off to getting the horizontal machine back in good order.

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the
machine. You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. But
maybe if his department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to
do better. 'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably
never do.

Surely you could have one of those traditional American perp walks? :-)

Chris

A horizontal saw and stocking metals that cut well is the best you
can
do I think. Doall had a chart that showed how to break in a new blade
and match blades to the material. It showed what the chips should and
should not look like. Cheaper blades from a good company might be
the answer too.

I worked at the U of MD for 35 years first at Ag Engineering and then
ran
the Wind Tunnel shop. Many stories, At Ag a professor cut up frozen
cat fish for a project on a 14" Delta one weekend and the saw stank
for
years. At the Wind Tunnel a couple of students marched up to our 36"
wood bandsaw and asked if it was the saw we used to cut titanium.
Our co-op student threw them out in a hurry.

Even a grad student who was very good in the shop forgot that Thompson
linear bearing 1" bar was case hardened and killed a new blade in an
instant
For a while we kept the 36" Doall set at 50 feet per minute with the
control
handles taken off.

A lot of our stock was surplus from WWII that had been hoarded for
many years. Some of it was pretty awful.

Foreign students were better because most had had training in high
school shops at home. One of our fellows born here had not figured
out single edge razor blades and cut himself twice in one lab class.

Student shops are in a class by themselves.

Charlie, retired with my own shop in the celler


On Nov 27, 3:07*pm, RoyJ wrote:
I get fairly tired of 0800 e-mails from the lab supervisor detailing the
transgressions from the day or weekend before. Then I walk around and
see what projects have newly minted stainless steel parts, congratulate
the team on their choice of an almost indestructible material, and the
perp steps forward to take the praise (blame). *Current plan is to get
all of the alloy steels including 4140, drill rod, tool steels, spring
steels and stainless loaded into racks with "see lab supervisor before
using" signs. THEN I have a big stick to club them with.

This semester I made a big deal of using virgin 6061-T6 aluminum,
extolling the virtues of it's 30kpsi tensile strength. *I made it the
most easily accessable material, picked a bunch of common sizes from
.032" to .250". I'm getting MUCH better life out of the vertical bandsaw
blades.

Now off to getting the horizontal machine back in good order.



Christopher Tidy wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the
machine. *You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. *But
maybe if his department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to
do better. 'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably
never do.

Surely you could have one of those traditional American perp walks? :-)

Chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I can relate!

OK, I guess I can't relate to the cat fish but I do have to put up with
the worm experiments in the dock area where we keep our engine related
stuff.

wrote:
A horizontal saw and stocking metals that cut well is the best you
can
do I think. Doall had a chart that showed how to break in a new blade
and match blades to the material. It showed what the chips should and
should not look like. Cheaper blades from a good company might be
the answer too.

I worked at the U of MD for 35 years first at Ag Engineering and then
ran
the Wind Tunnel shop. Many stories, At Ag a professor cut up frozen
cat fish for a project on a 14" Delta one weekend and the saw stank
for
years. At the Wind Tunnel a couple of students marched up to our 36"
wood bandsaw and asked if it was the saw we used to cut titanium.
Our co-op student threw them out in a hurry.

Even a grad student who was very good in the shop forgot that Thompson
linear bearing 1" bar was case hardened and killed a new blade in an
instant
For a while we kept the 36" Doall set at 50 feet per minute with the
control
handles taken off.

A lot of our stock was surplus from WWII that had been hoarded for
many years. Some of it was pretty awful.

Foreign students were better because most had had training in high
school shops at home. One of our fellows born here had not figured
out single edge razor blades and cut himself twice in one lab class.

Student shops are in a class by themselves.

Charlie, retired with my own shop in the celler


On Nov 27, 3:07 pm, RoyJ wrote:
I get fairly tired of 0800 e-mails from the lab supervisor detailing the
transgressions from the day or weekend before. Then I walk around and
see what projects have newly minted stainless steel parts, congratulate
the team on their choice of an almost indestructible material, and the
perp steps forward to take the praise (blame). Current plan is to get
all of the alloy steels including 4140, drill rod, tool steels, spring
steels and stainless loaded into racks with "see lab supervisor before
using" signs. THEN I have a big stick to club them with.

This semester I made a big deal of using virgin 6061-T6 aluminum,
extolling the virtues of it's 30kpsi tensile strength. I made it the
most easily accessable material, picked a bunch of common sizes from
.032" to .250". I'm getting MUCH better life out of the vertical bandsaw
blades.

Now off to getting the horizontal machine back in good order.



Christopher Tidy wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the
machine. You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. But
maybe if his department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to
do better. 'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably
never do.
Surely you could have one of those traditional American perp walks? :-)
Chris- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

RoyJ wrote:
I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states
vs blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12
horizontal band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty
ratty, needs to be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm
pushing for a bandsaw because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of
long sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything
including stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly.
I can't depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.

Hi Roy,

Sorry you're stuck with this, I've been re-treaded twice (part time)
with the instructor stuff (vo-tech and university). I'd like to think
I've more patience now, but shop habits either start early or come "HARD".

I'd go for the cheap band saw (most work), "and" the cold saw (precise
potato chip thin error work), "then" a dry abrasive saw (for the
beautiful sand pounding children, whom their parents enrolled at birth,
can use) if they're not sure. I can just imagine myself starting the
semester with that...

It's about shop habits, if your going to treat your workers well, your
co-workers well, or keep your employer solid, you better know where your
starting and going. A concept or design is not the start, or the end, in
a "blink of an eye".

The best instructors I can remember always "set the groundwork of
performance" and were taskmasters at your getting there.

"Known and unknown materials ????", tell the students there might be
depleted uranium in the materials rack and see if they pay attention,
and check before they grab it!!!! (and of course, know how to find out
if it is, and how to work with it if they want too).


Matt

Hey Roy,

There is a discussion "further up the page" here on RCM right now
about abrasive cut-off wheels. Don't you have one or two of those
dirty things for "students"?

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:09:48 -0600, RoyJ
wrote:

I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states
vs blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12
horizontal band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty
ratty, needs to be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm
pushing for a bandsaw because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of
long sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything
including stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly.
I can't depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.

Nope. Too noisy, too dirty, too much fire hazard for the area. That and
they don't seem to understand the difference between ferrous materials
that cut nicely on an abrasive saw and aluminum that just clogs it up.
Sigh.

I need to have a discussion with the materials guy to clue him in on
subjects near and dear to my heart. What's funny is that he will be
happy to cover the subjects I ask him about without any conversation.

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Roy,

There is a discussion "further up the page" here on RCM right now
about abrasive cut-off wheels. Don't you have one or two of those
dirty things for "students"?

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:09:48 -0600, RoyJ
wrote:

I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states
vs blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12
horizontal band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty
ratty, needs to be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm
pushing for a bandsaw because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of
long sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything
including stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly.
I can't depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Roy,

There is a discussion "further up the page" here on RCM right now
about abrasive cut-off wheels. Don't you have one or two of those
dirty things for "students"?


Watch it ... I just yesterday bought a 10" chopsaw and some 7" wheels ...
because it's more accurate on square and miter cuts than my
portaband-in-a-vertical-adapter . Used properly , an abrasive wheel can be a
good choice . Used wrong , it can be a death sentence .
--
Snag
sometimes ya gotta
shovel manure
to pay the bills

"RoyJ" wrote in message
news
I'm probably going to open a question that sounds like the 'red states
vs blue states' but I gotta ask:

I deal with a University Engineering proto shop that has a 8x12
horizontal band saw was inexpensive to start with, is getting pretty
ratty, needs to be replaced. The question: cold saw or bandsaw? I'm
pushing for a bandsaw because blade costs are so much lower.

The kicker: this shop is used by inexperienced users doing all sorts of
known and unknown materials. Much of the work is not easy cutting of
long sticks of hot rolled angle. More like short chunks of anything
including stainless. I can't depend on them clamping the part correctly.
I can't depend on smooth entry feed or even the right feed pressure.

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.

I think I may opt for the cold saw, but add to it a key actuated switch so
that you can have a modicum of control over it's use. That way you could
eyeball the setup prior to the cut to be sure of things.

The cold saw works fine for stainless with the right setup and technique.
It also is much faster than the band saw so monitoring it's use would not
kill too much of your time.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:08:21 -0500, Wes wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

To give you a feel for things: the Delta vertical bandsaw has a blade
life of around 2 weeks, usually winds up missing most of the teeth after
someone tries to cut some .120 stainless, snags the teeth. I'm afraid
I'd be looking at sending in a $500 cold saw blade every other week. Not
going to happen on my watch.


I do not believe anyone that likes you will tell you to get the cold saw in your case.

Cold saws are neat when you know they will only cut suitable materials.


Wes


I agee. Bandsaw it is. And a blade welder and boxes of blade stock.

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:15:10 -0600, RoyJ wrote:

I can relate!

OK, I guess I can't relate to the cat fish but I do have to put up with
the worm experiments in the dock area where we keep our engine related
stuff.

I use my 16" Walker Turner to cut meat with great regularity. Goes
through pork ribs marvelously. Id never cut fish with it though..I dont
eat fish.

But..I always clean up afterwards. The one time a bud used it to cut up
most of a wild boar while I was gone down south..and I found maggots in
the base of the machine cause he didnt clean it......

wrote:
A horizontal saw and stocking metals that cut well is the best you
can
do I think. Doall had a chart that showed how to break in a new blade
and match blades to the material. It showed what the chips should and
should not look like. Cheaper blades from a good company might be
the answer too.

I worked at the U of MD for 35 years first at Ag Engineering and then
ran
the Wind Tunnel shop. Many stories, At Ag a professor cut up frozen
cat fish for a project on a 14" Delta one weekend and the saw stank
for
years. At the Wind Tunnel a couple of students marched up to our 36"
wood bandsaw and asked if it was the saw we used to cut titanium.
Our co-op student threw them out in a hurry.

Even a grad student who was very good in the shop forgot that Thompson
linear bearing 1" bar was case hardened and killed a new blade in an
instant
For a while we kept the 36" Doall set at 50 feet per minute with the
control
handles taken off.

A lot of our stock was surplus from WWII that had been hoarded for
many years. Some of it was pretty awful.

Foreign students were better because most had had training in high
school shops at home. One of our fellows born here had not figured
out single edge razor blades and cut himself twice in one lab class.

Student shops are in a class by themselves.

Charlie, retired with my own shop in the celler


On Nov 27, 3:07 pm, RoyJ wrote:
I get fairly tired of 0800 e-mails from the lab supervisor detailing the
transgressions from the day or weekend before. Then I walk around and
see what projects have newly minted stainless steel parts, congratulate
the team on their choice of an almost indestructible material, and the
perp steps forward to take the praise (blame). Current plan is to get
all of the alloy steels including 4140, drill rod, tool steels, spring
steels and stainless loaded into racks with "see lab supervisor before
using" signs. THEN I have a big stick to club them with.

This semester I made a big deal of using virgin 6061-T6 aluminum,
extolling the virtues of it's 30kpsi tensile strength. I made it the
most easily accessable material, picked a bunch of common sizes from
.032" to .250". I'm getting MUCH better life out of the vertical bandsaw
blades.

Now off to getting the horizontal machine back in good order.



Christopher Tidy wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jeez, there should be SOME consequence for somebody abusing the
machine. You're not going to get him to pay for it, I'm sure. But
maybe if his department had to pay, there would be pressure on him to
do better. 'Course you'd have to know who the perp was & you probably
never do.
Surely you could have one of those traditional American perp walks? :-)
Chris- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -


"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania