What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


I think I can do it with CATIA Richard.
You'd think the board maker would have this capability. Did you ask?

JC

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


I think I can do it with CATIA Richard.
You'd think the board maker would have this capability. Did you ask?

Never mind.
I can write out machine instructions for a bunch of machines but can't
output Gerber's file format.
You might try these guys. I believe they offer file translation as a
service.

http://www.graphicode.com

JC

cavelamb himself wrote:
What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.


(...)

Your fastest, cheapest way is probably to re-capture using a freeware
schematic / PCB layout tool. http://www.expresspcb.com/

Their pricing formula is: $55 + ($0.65 * NumberOfBoards *
BoardAreaInSquareInches) + ($1.00 * NumberOfBoards) + Shipping.

(Plus tax, inside California)

If shipping is ~12 bux,

Boards
1 89.45
2 111.9
3 134.35
4 156.8
5 179.25


Standard 2 layer layout size is limited to 12" x 14".
As you know, it's silly to buy just one board.

Their fab shop is captive and they probably won't release the Gerber
to a competitor.


--Winston

John R. Carroll wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...

What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.



I think I can do it with CATIA Richard.
You'd think the board maker would have this capability. Did you ask?

JC



THOSE shops, the ones that have layout capability seem to be the most
expensive. The local guy was really nice, but said he couldn't even
look at it for less than $1500 to $1800 NRE. I read that as his
'staying in business money' - or maybe 'don't waste my time' money?

So far, the three I've actually talked to just insist that it has to be
in Gerber. I don't think the actual people have a clue what that means.
It's just what the company wants - so that's what they say.

The china shop? Beats me. I haven't spoken them yet. (what a hoot!)

But at the bottom of the page they want Gerber 274 files and NC drill
file(?).

http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php

I'd get 4 boards from a panel. With the heavier copper plate option
they would come to $35 to 40 a piece. Which I can live with for 4
boards. (It's not like anybody else would be interested in an 8 Mhz
XT core at this late date)


Remove the mighty X from my return address.

Better yet, I'll CC this to the address(es) I have for you, John.
Sending to both UBU and non-ubu.
One of 'em outta get through!

If that works, I'll send you the files.

Would you prefer DFX or DWG for import?
I made version 13 of both. But they bulk some.

And, hey John, whether it works or not, thanks for offering.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

John R. Carroll wrote:


Never mind.
I can write out machine instructions for a bunch of machines but can't
output Gerber's file format.
You might try these guys. I believe they offer file translation as a
service.

http://www.graphicode.com

JC

According to their web site they are pretty confident they can.
I'll send them a note and get started!

Thanks.



--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
John R. Carroll wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...


But at the bottom of the page they want Gerber 274 files and NC drill
file(?).

What I think I can write out is RS274-X. The NC drilling code is a piece of
cake.
At least I'm familiar with that. Circuit board layout is beyond my
experience but I have the module.



http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php

I'd get 4 boards from a panel. With the heavier copper plate option
they would come to $35 to 40 a piece. Which I can live with for 4
boards. (It's not like anybody else would be interested in an 8 Mhz
XT core at this late date)


Remove the mighty X from my return address.

Better yet, I'll CC this to the address(es) I have for you, John.
Sending to both UBU and non-ubu.
One of 'em outta get through!

UBU is a black Lab. I put that in thinking a munged address would decease
SPAM but apparently that's old hat.


If that works, I'll send you the files.

Would you prefer DFX or DWG for import?
I made version 13 of both. But they bulk some.

And, hey John, whether it works or not, thanks for offering.

No prob.
I've got a new 64 bit box to finish seting up and an injector body and fuel
manifold for a third stage TKUS workhorse engine that has suddenly decided
to give me a little grief again. It's really been one of those days...

I'm getting to old for this stuff but there has been so little money put
into rocket engine development since the shuttle that most of the people
that knew how to do this work are either dead or retired and the young bucks
that are coming in are great designers but have little experience with the
manufacturing side of the business.The machine shops that used to build
prototypes are long gone, mostly because they couldn't find kids that wanted
to be anything but investment bankers and we live in a country that seems to
feel that makin' stuff is beneath us.
Idiots.....

JC

Winston wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.


(...)

Your fastest, cheapest way is probably to re-capture using a freeware
schematic / PCB layout tool. http://www.expresspcb.com/

Their pricing formula is: $55 + ($0.65 * NumberOfBoards *
BoardAreaInSquareInches) + ($1.00 * NumberOfBoards) + Shipping.

(Plus tax, inside California)

If shipping is ~12 bux,

Boards
1 89.45
2 111.9
3 134.35
4 156.8
5 179.25


Standard 2 layer layout size is limited to 12" x 14".
As you know, it's silly to buy just one board.

Their fab shop is captive and they probably won't release the Gerber
to a competitor.


--Winston

Unless the Chineese take off for Thanksgiving Day...
(hey, it's a global village, remember? It could happen!)

This one looked pretty good to me.
http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php

I downloaded Eagle CAD, but I'm not too impressed with it.
(And it doesn't seem to make Gerber files either, so WTF?)

Besides, it's a bit of a job drawing that mess out.
Even if you already know where everything goes.
So I'd rather not, if I can get away with it.

Here is a pic of the board.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm#cpu
It's not real big, but way too much to hand drill at home!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

John R. Carroll wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:


"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:O92dncHwGMVUtHHVnZ2dnUVZ_o7inZ2d@earthlink .com...


But at the bottom of the page they want Gerber 274 files and NC drill
file(?).


What I think I can write out is RS274-X. The NC drilling code is a piece of
cake.

That's the stuff they want!
I'd offer a wooden nickle if you might be willing to give it a try!?!

At least I'm familiar with that. Circuit board layout is beyond my
experience but I have the module.


It's kind of a cross between jigsaw puzzles and psycho self abuse...
You definately go blind.


snip

I'm getting to old for this stuff but there has been so little money put
into rocket engine development since the shuttle that most of the people
that knew how to do this work are either dead or retired and the young bucks
that are coming in are great designers but have little experience with the
manufacturing side of the business.The machine shops that used to build
prototypes are long gone, mostly because they couldn't find kids that wanted
to be anything but investment bankers and we live in a country that seems to
feel that makin' stuff is beneath us.
Idiots.....

JC



Big Belly Laugh that would make Gunner jealous!

Just wait till those new kids start trying to build Saturn V's again!!!

'No Sir, no idea why it blew up!
The Computer Analysis said it was fine!"



--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

"Winston" wrote in message
...
cavelamb himself wrote:
(...)

I downloaded Eagle CAD, but I'm not too impressed with it.
(And it doesn't seem to make Gerber files either, so WTF?)

Shore it does. Real RS274X and 40 other flavors.
Select 'board' then 'CAM'.
Select your post processor and layers.
Click 'Process Job'
You are off to the races.


That sounds a like what I'd have to do.
It also sounds like you actually know what you are doing.

JC

cavelamb himself wrote:
(...)

I downloaded Eagle CAD, but I'm not too impressed with it.
(And it doesn't seem to make Gerber files either, so WTF?)

Shore it does. Real RS274X and 40 other flavors.
Select 'board' then 'CAM'.
Select your post processor and layers.
Click 'Process Job'
You are off to the races.

Besides, it's a bit of a job drawing that mess out.
Even if you already know where everything goes.
So I'd rather not, if I can get away with it.

Here is a pic of the board.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm#cpu
It's not real big, but way too much to hand drill at home!

You're a brave man, Richard. 2 layers?

--Winston

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
John R. Carroll wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

John R. Carroll wrote:
What I think I can write out is RS274-X. The NC drilling code is a piece
of cake.

That's the stuff they want!
I'd offer a wooden nickle if you might be willing to give it a try!?!

I will, but Winston seems to have a better solution for you.

snip

I'm getting to old for this stuff but there has been so little money put
into rocket engine development since the shuttle that most of the people
that knew how to do this work are either dead or retired and the young
bucks that are coming in are great designers but have little experience
with the manufacturing side of the business.The machine shops that used
to build prototypes are long gone, mostly because they couldn't find kids
that wanted to be anything but investment bankers and we live in a
country that seems to feel that makin' stuff is beneath us.
Idiots.....

JC



Big Belly Laugh that would make Gunner jealous!

Just wait till those new kids start trying to build Saturn V's again!!!

That isn't going to happen unless the Ruskies get sideways on us.
The work here is the third generation of a design proposed for heavy lift
back in the seventies.
The stuff I'm doing is for land and sea based interceptors.


'No Sir, no idea why it blew up!
The Computer Analysis said it was fine!"

We've had pretty good luck so far. I'm lucky to be working with a bunch of
really smart guys.

JC

John R. Carroll wrote:

(...)

That sounds a like what I'd have to do.
It also sounds like you actually know what you are doing.

JC

I've done that stuff, once or twice.

--Winston

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.

Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Winston wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:
(...)

I downloaded Eagle CAD, but I'm not too impressed with it.
(And it doesn't seem to make Gerber files either, so WTF?)


Shore it does. Real RS274X and 40 other flavors.
Select 'board' then 'CAM'.
Select your post processor and layers.
Click 'Process Job'
You are off to the races.

Besides, it's a bit of a job drawing that mess out.
Even if you already know where everything goes.
So I'd rather not, if I can get away with it.

Here is a pic of the board.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm#cpu
It's not real big, but way too much to hand drill at home!


You're a brave man, Richard. 2 layers?

--Winston


No Guts, No Gory!

(or was that gLory??)

I think it's done, Winston.

Except for the probably painful redrawing in Eagle.
But maybe these guys at Graphicode will come through.

Getting enough metal in the grounds is the real challenge.
I have a magic trick for that - should it be needed.
But it's a pretty small board, so maybe not.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

John R. Carroll wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...

John R. Carroll wrote:


"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...


John R. Carroll wrote:

What I think I can write out is RS274-X. The NC drilling code is a piece
of cake.

That's the stuff they want!
I'd offer a wooden nickle if you might be willing to give it a try!?!


I will, but Winston seems to have a better solution for you.


snip

I'm getting to old for this stuff but there has been so little money put
into rocket engine development since the shuttle that most of the people
that knew how to do this work are either dead or retired and the young
bucks that are coming in are great designers but have little experience
with the manufacturing side of the business.The machine shops that used
to build prototypes are long gone, mostly because they couldn't find kids
that wanted to be anything but investment bankers and we live in a
country that seems to feel that makin' stuff is beneath us.
Idiots.....

JC



Big Belly Laugh that would make Gunner jealous!

Just wait till those new kids start trying to build Saturn V's again!!!


That isn't going to happen unless the Ruskies get sideways on us.
The work here is the third generation of a design proposed for heavy lift
back in the seventies.
The stuff I'm doing is for land and sea based interceptors.


'No Sir, no idea why it blew up!
The Computer Analysis said it was fine!"


We've had pretty good luck so far. I'm lucky to be working with a bunch of
really smart guys.

JC



I dunno, John.

They keep saying we are going back to the moon (someday real soon now).

We aren't going to do that with small efficient rockets.
Takes raw brute force.
And LOTS of it.

But you probably know more about that than I do.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Here is a pic of the board.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm#cpu
It's not real big, but way too much to hand drill at home!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


You can drill that by hand no problems, probably take 15 to 20 minutes. Get
some HSS 3mm shank pcb drill bits and whack them in the drill press on max
rpm. I find they blunt very quickly using FR4 fibreglass board as the drill
speed is not high enough. If you can get it try using phenolic board, its
cheaper and drills way easier. I've found the carbide drillbits a too
brittle for hand use in a drill press, they do cut superbly though.

To line up the two sides print to overhead film on a laser and lay them back
to back, line up the pad holes and run some tape down the side of the two
overhead films. Have the taped bit an inch or two from the edge of the pcb
to minimise the error due to the thickness of the pcb that will be placed
between them. Expose one side, then the other. It takes a littke care but
I'm pretty rough and have not had too many problems. Increase pad and track
sizes as much as practical - makes it more robust for homeshop
manufacturing.

For outsourcing it maybe look at www.pcbcart.com I found them inexpensive,
quick & good quality. For a Chinese company their email communications were
fast and intelligible.

cavelamb himself wrote:

What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Pickup a copy of Circuit Cellar (Fry's, B&N, etc), there are plenty of
ads for PCB houses that will do your board for around $50.

cavelamb himself wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Dude, that looks like a really old design, can you even source some of
those parts? I think a redesign with more modern parts would cut the
parts count, board complexity and physical size considerably.

cavelamb himself wrote:

What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Ask on news:sci.electronics.design


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Den wrote:
Here is a pic of the board.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm#cpu
It's not real big, but way too much to hand drill at home!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)



You can drill that by hand no problems, probably take 15 to 20 minutes. Get
some HSS 3mm shank pcb drill bits and whack them in the drill press on max
rpm. I find they blunt very quickly using FR4 fibreglass board as the drill
speed is not high enough. If you can get it try using phenolic board, its
cheaper and drills way easier. I've found the carbide drillbits a too
brittle for hand use in a drill press, they do cut superbly though.

To line up the two sides print to overhead film on a laser and lay them back
to back, line up the pad holes and run some tape down the side of the two
overhead films. Have the taped bit an inch or two from the edge of the pcb
to minimise the error due to the thickness of the pcb that will be placed
between them. Expose one side, then the other. It takes a littke care but
I'm pretty rough and have not had too many problems. Increase pad and track
sizes as much as practical - makes it more robust for homeshop
manufacturing.

For outsourcing it maybe look at www.pcbcart.com I found them inexpensive,
quick & good quality. For a Chinese company their email communications were
fast and intelligible.



You are a braver soul than I, Dan.
I wouldn't even consider that short of end of the world conditions!

The mechanical aspects aside, the next step after drilling is replating
with another 2 ounces of copper. Or hand solder both sides of every via?
Pass!

The tracks on this one are pretty much maxed out at .013.
Making them .015 eats up the clearance between pads right quick.

The pads started off as .050 circles, but were soon squished .8 width
and 1.25 height (nice pretty ellipses!) to compromise between solder pad
size and trace clearance.

The link that Don Foreman offered looks like a winner to me.

I downloaded their PCD program and played with it some last night.
Not too bad. Not great, but not too bad. (ok, I'm spoiled rotten)

It will taks some time to get it up and running for real because the
library didn't include any of the CPU or mempry parts. Those have to
be made properly in order to take full advantage.
But I did get all my parts on the board with it.

I think I'll stick with them and give it a try.

Might even get a Happy Meal out of it!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:


On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:



What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Dude, that looks like a really old design, can you even source some of
those parts? I think a redesign with more modern parts would cut the
parts count, board complexity and physical size considerably.

You obviously know your stuff, Pete.

It is indeed an old design.
An 8088 cpu running at either 5 or 8 Mhz.
Basically the central core of a Turbo XT clone.

Yes, all the parts are still available - and cheap!

The only "new" parts on the board are the memory and Max232 level shifter.

(I have an 8256 in my parts box - which would really reduce parts count,
but I'm not convinved that one is still easily available)

The memory parts are 512k x 8 static ram (and EPROM) in 32 pin DIPS
(awesome stuff!)

I have software for Z80 and 8088 BIOS / monitor.
After a lot of head scratching I picked the 8088 over the Z80 because
it's code compatable with my host computer. And I like MASM.

And there is less brain dammage potential sticking to a single assembler.

As for board size and complexity, it's a 512K XT (minus video and
keyboard) with timer, interupt controller, serial port, switch port,
4 blinky LEDs, and a virgin 8255 for user IO.

And a good bit of MSDOS compatable interupt functions.

If you can't blink an LED with all that it's time to take up knitting!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Michael A. Terrell wrote:



Ask on news:sci.electronics.design



Yehabut, ya get better answere\s here...

Two male mathematicians are in a bar. The first one says to the second
that the average person knows very little about basic mathematics. The
second one disagrees, and claims that most people can cope with a
reasonable amount of math.

The first mathematician goes off to the washroom, and in his absence the
second calls over the waitress. He tells her that in a few minutes,
after his friend has returned, he will call her over and ask her a
question. All she has to do is answer one third x cubed.

She repeats "one thir -- dex cue"?

He repeats "one third x cubed".

Her: `one thir dex cuebd'? Yes, that's right, he says. So she agrees,
and goes off mumbling to herself, "one thir dex cuebd...".

The first guy returns and the second proposes a bet to prove his point,
that most people do know something about basic math. He says he will
ask the blonde waitress an integral, and the first laughingly agrees.

The second man calls over the waitress and asks "what is the integral
of x squared?".

The waitress says "one third x cubed" and while walking away, turns
back and says over her shoulder "plus a constant!"

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

(...)

Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

(...)

Those guys have been around forever!
Might be just the ticket.

http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

Doesn't work that way.
You work with the autorouter interactively to place (and replace)
traces. Most of the time, the autorouter leaves a significant
number of your connections undone. At least that's how it goes
using 'hobby level' autorouters.

I really recommend going to a 4 layer design if the budget will
allow. Digital electronics that use high impedance power and
ground paths tend to unexpectedly 'branch to ozone'.

--Winston

cavelamb himself wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:


On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:



What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Dude, that looks like a really old design, can you even source some of
those parts? I think a redesign with more modern parts would cut the
parts count, board complexity and physical size considerably.

You obviously know your stuff, Pete.

It is indeed an old design.
An 8088 cpu running at either 5 or 8 Mhz.
Basically the central core of a Turbo XT clone.

Yes, all the parts are still available - and cheap!

The only "new" parts on the board are the memory and Max232 level shifter.

(I have an 8256 in my parts box - which would really reduce parts count,
but I'm not convinved that one is still easily available)

The memory parts are 512k x 8 static ram (and EPROM) in 32 pin DIPS
(awesome stuff!)

I have software for Z80 and 8088 BIOS / monitor.
After a lot of head scratching I picked the 8088 over the Z80 because
it's code compatable with my host computer. And I like MASM.

And there is less brain dammage potential sticking to a single assembler.

As for board size and complexity, it's a 512K XT (minus video and
keyboard) with timer, interupt controller, serial port, switch port,
4 blinky LEDs, and a virgin 8255 for user IO.

And a good bit of MSDOS compatable interupt functions.

If you can't blink an LED with all that it's time to take up knitting!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Might want to pickup that copy of Circuit Cellar and review all the PC
type SBCs that are available for a couple hundred dollars complete
before you reinvent the wheel.

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


cavelamb himself wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:



On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:




What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Dude, that looks like a really old design, can you even source some of
those parts? I think a redesign with more modern parts would cut the
parts count, board complexity and physical size considerably.

You obviously know your stuff, Pete.

It is indeed an old design.
An 8088 cpu running at either 5 or 8 Mhz.
Basically the central core of a Turbo XT clone.

Yes, all the parts are still available - and cheap!

The only "new" parts on the board are the memory and Max232 level shifter.

(I have an 8256 in my parts box - which would really reduce parts count,
but I'm not convinved that one is still easily available)

The memory parts are 512k x 8 static ram (and EPROM) in 32 pin DIPS
(awesome stuff!)

I have software for Z80 and 8088 BIOS / monitor.
After a lot of head scratching I picked the 8088 over the Z80 because
it's code compatable with my host computer. And I like MASM.

And there is less brain dammage potential sticking to a single assembler.

As for board size and complexity, it's a 512K XT (minus video and
keyboard) with timer, interupt controller, serial port, switch port,
4 blinky LEDs, and a virgin 8255 for user IO.

And a good bit of MSDOS compatable interupt functions.

If you can't blink an LED with all that it's time to take up knitting!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Might want to pickup that copy of Circuit Cellar and review all the PC
type SBCs that are available for a couple hundred dollars complete
before you reinvent the wheel.

I've read Circuit Cellar since it was an article in Byte magazine.
But they have pretty much gone the way of the OPic.

My intent here IS to reinvent the wheel.
Or ACTUALLY, to simplify a wheel.


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...


Let ya know how it smells after I get one powered up.
Film at eleven!

That's the spirit!

JC

Winston wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:


(...)

Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/


(...)

Those guys have been around forever!
Might be just the ticket.

http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.


Doesn't work that way.
You work with the autorouter interactively to place (and replace)
traces. Most of the time, the autorouter leaves a significant
number of your connections undone. At least that's how it goes
using 'hobby level' autorouters.

I really recommend going to a 4 layer design if the budget will
allow. Digital electronics that use high impedance power and
ground paths tend to unexpectedly 'branch to ozone'.

--Winston

I don't think four layers is really necessary here.
Nice, maybe, but not necessary.

Let ya know how it smells after I get one powered up.
Film at eleven!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

cavelamb himself wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


cavelamb himself wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:



On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:




What a mixed up strange world.

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.

Not surprising, I guess. The last circuit board I had made was 20+
years ago - done with tape and stickies on film and photo reduced.

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Or?
Know of a PCB prototyping house that's affordable and can translate?

A single double-sided board - 5-12" x 6" - with silkscreen - less than
1000 holes.

It's not a commercial product - just something I wanted to play with.


Ping these guys:
http://www.4pcb.com/

Pinged! Or is it Punged?

That's a pretty good offer - about the same as China.
But I'd like to have 4 OZ copper.
Will talk to them tomorrow.

I really like the special student offer!

Free MacDonald's gift card with every order of less than 4 and special
pricing too!

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Dude, that looks like a really old design, can you even source some of
those parts? I think a redesign with more modern parts would cut the
parts count, board complexity and physical size considerably.

You obviously know your stuff, Pete.

It is indeed an old design.
An 8088 cpu running at either 5 or 8 Mhz.
Basically the central core of a Turbo XT clone.

Yes, all the parts are still available - and cheap!

The only "new" parts on the board are the memory and Max232 level shifter.

(I have an 8256 in my parts box - which would really reduce parts count,
but I'm not convinved that one is still easily available)

The memory parts are 512k x 8 static ram (and EPROM) in 32 pin DIPS
(awesome stuff!)

I have software for Z80 and 8088 BIOS / monitor.
After a lot of head scratching I picked the 8088 over the Z80 because
it's code compatable with my host computer. And I like MASM.

And there is less brain dammage potential sticking to a single assembler.

As for board size and complexity, it's a 512K XT (minus video and
keyboard) with timer, interupt controller, serial port, switch port,
4 blinky LEDs, and a virgin 8255 for user IO.

And a good bit of MSDOS compatable interupt functions.

If you can't blink an LED with all that it's time to take up knitting!

--

Richard

(remove the X to email)


Might want to pickup that copy of Circuit Cellar and review all the PC
type SBCs that are available for a couple hundred dollars complete
before you reinvent the wheel.

I've read Circuit Cellar since it was an article in Byte magazine.

Same here. I subscribed to CCI when it was first announced in Byte as
Byte was crashing and burning.

But they have pretty much gone the way of the OPic.

My intent here IS to reinvent the wheel.
Or ACTUALLY, to simplify a wheel.

Dunno, if it were me, I'd select a suitable SBC for the couple bills and
get on with the project.

cavelamb himself writes:

I've read Circuit Cellar since it was an article in Byte magazine.
But they have pretty much gone the way of the OPic.

The way of the OPic? I don't get the reference.

My intent here IS to reinvent the wheel.
Or ACTUALLY, to simplify a wheel.

cavelamb himself wrote:

The local PCB shops won't touch a simple job for less than $2000 NRE +
board costs, but several shops in China can knock out a panel for $99 -
almost flat rate.

But (of course) they need a particular file format - which I don't have.


Is the gerber file format published? You seem like a guy that could write his own
translator.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Pete C." wrote:

(remove the X to email)

Pickup a copy of Circuit Cellar (Fry's, B&N, etc), there are plenty of
ads for PCB houses that will do your board for around $50.

Cavelamb,

I don't normally pass on copyrighted material but if you send an address to my clutch
address, I'll forward you a recent pdf copy of Circuit Cellar. I'm a online subscriber, I
think Steve Ciarcia will forgive me this one transgression.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wes wrote:

Is the gerber file format published? You seem like a guy that could write his own
translator.

Replying to my own post after DAGS. http://www.artwork.com/gerber/274x/rs274xrevd_e.pdf

Wiki pointed to it.

Wes

Wes wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

(remove the X to email)

Pickup a copy of Circuit Cellar (Fry's, B&N, etc), there are plenty of
ads for PCB houses that will do your board for around $50.

Cavelamb,

I don't normally pass on copyrighted material but if you send an address to my clutch
address, I'll forward you a recent pdf copy of Circuit Cellar. I'm a online subscriber, I
think Steve Ciarcia will forgive me this one transgression.

It seems that Cavelamb is also a subscriber. A friend of mine does the
cover graphics for CCI. Small world

On 2008-10-08, cavelamb himself wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:32:21 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

[ ... ]

I've been all over the net tonight looking for a DFX to Gerber
translator - which are avialable - Free Download!, but cost big bucks
to license. (trial copies work - but leave out some items)

Is there anyone in the house translate a few dxf files to gerber?

Hmm ... you posted from a Windows system -- but do you have any
unix or linux systems in your collection? There is a program, simply
named "pcb" which will produce Gerber plots.

The version which I downloaded and compiled in 2007 was
pcb-1.7.3. I wonder what version they are up to by now? The author is:
Thomas Nau, but I can't find where I downloaded the source. I could,
however, pass the source on to you if you want, since it is GPL'd.

[ ... ]

This looks like more complete software than Eagle.
http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46

Anybody want to make odds on whether an autorouter can complete my
little board in the same space?

I'm offering 10:1 against.


If you want to see an excerpt from a Gerber output file, this is
the start of the silkscreen layer:


================================================== ====================
G04 Title: (unknown), silkscreen component side *
G04 Creator: pcb 1.6.3 *
G04 CreationDate: Sun Sep 19 02:01:17 2004 UTC *
G04 For: dnichols *
G04 Format: Gerber/RS-274X *
G04 PCB-Dimensions: 3500 1875 *
G04 PCB-Coordinate-Origin: lower left *
G04 Color: R0 G0 B0 *
*
%FSLAX23Y23*%
%MOIN*%
%ADD11C,0.010*%
%ADD12C,0.025*%
%ADD13C,0.040*%
%ADD14R,0.060X0.060*%
%ADD15R,0.090X0.090*%
%ADD16C,0.060*%
%ADD17C,0.090*%
%ADD18C,0.008*%
%ADD19C,0.020*%
%ADD20R,0.050X0.050*%
%ADD21R,0.080X0.080*%
%ADD22C,0.050*%
%ADD23C,0.080*%
%ADD24R,0.110X0.110*%
%ADD25C,0.110*%
%IPPOS*%
G01*
*G04 Alignment Targets ***

[ ... ]

D02*X3177Y1075D01*
X3167Y1100D02*X3177D01*
X3193Y1075D02*X3208D01*
D02*X3213Y1080D01*
X3208Y1085D02*X3213Y1080D01*
X3193Y1085D02*X3208D01*
X3188Y1090D02*X3193Y1085D01*
X3188Y1090D02*X3193Y1095D01*
D02*X3208D01*
D02*X3213Y1090D01*
X3188Y1080D02*X3193Y1075D01*
D02*
M02*
================================================== ====================

Quite a bit like G-code for CNC work.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Pete C." wrote:

It seems that Cavelamb is also a subscriber. A friend of mine does the
cover graphics for CCI. Small world

He does nice covers.

I remember first seeing SC's work in Byte. For a number of years I took the print version
but stopped because I have way too many periodicals cluttering the place. I once
subscribed to way too many magazines.

When I learned I could subscribe via pdf, I was thrilled, I can keep it on line and on a
dvd backup and barely take up a bit of physical space.

I wish the other mags I read would offer the same option.

15 bucks a year for PDF's is a deal!

I see the EAA (experimental aircraft association) is making past magazines available
online for members. I wish I could just buy a dvd and toss out my stacks of mags. Same
for National Geographic, Air and Space, American Rifleman, ect.


Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wes wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

It seems that Cavelamb is also a subscriber. A friend of mine does the
cover graphics for CCI. Small world

He does nice covers.

I've provided props for a few of them


I remember first seeing SC's work in Byte. For a number of years I took the print version
but stopped because I have way too many periodicals cluttering the place. I once
subscribed to way too many magazines.

I started reading the Byte column around the time of the HCS I, then
followed to CCI. I still do the print version since pdfs are somewhat
inconvenient to read in the tiled reading room. I also get the CDs so I
can more easily find old articles when I want.


When I learned I could subscribe via pdf, I was thrilled, I can keep it on line and on a
dvd backup and barely take up a bit of physical space.

Yes, a bit more compact.


I wish the other mags I read would offer the same option.

Some do. I get Homepower in pdf form.


15 bucks a year for PDF's is a deal!

I see the EAA (experimental aircraft association) is making past magazines available
online for members. I wish I could just buy a dvd and toss out my stacks of mags. Same
for National Geographic, Air and Space, American Rifleman, ect.

Eventually print medium will disapear, the technology just isn't quite
there yet. The "E paper" stuff is getting closer to making E media
practical to read in the tiled reading room.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:16:56 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

Might want to pickup that copy of Circuit Cellar and review all the PC
type SBCs that are available for a couple hundred dollars complete
before you reinvent the wheel.

Reinventing the wheel has a bad rep. It's often fun and occasionally
one gets a significantly better wheel.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:53:25 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:



Ask on news:sci.electronics.design



Yehabut, ya get better answere\s here...

Two male mathematicians are in a bar. The first one says to the second
that the average person knows very little about basic mathematics. The
second one disagrees, and claims that most people can cope with a
reasonable amount of math.

The first mathematician goes off to the washroom, and in his absence the
second calls over the waitress. He tells her that in a few minutes,
after his friend has returned, he will call her over and ask her a
question. All she has to do is answer one third x cubed.

She repeats "one thir -- dex cue"?

He repeats "one third x cubed".

Her: `one thir dex cuebd'? Yes, that's right, he says. So she agrees,
and goes off mumbling to herself, "one thir dex cuebd...".

The first guy returns and the second proposes a bet to prove his point,
that most people do know something about basic math. He says he will
ask the blonde waitress an integral, and the first laughingly agrees.

The second man calls over the waitress and asks "what is the integral
of x squared?".

The waitress says "one third x cubed" and while walking away, turns
back and says over her shoulder "plus a constant!"

I love it!