Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system.
Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.

Anyone hear of this or can provide info?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in news:gku5q5-qtb2.ln1
@news.infowest.com:

Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system.
Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.

Anyone hear of this or can provide info?

Steve


Propane augmentation of Diesel engines has been around for awhile.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming, etc. -
one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

The claims of each type of augmentation product are based upon
1. Higher HP/Torque as demonstrated on a Dynomometer
2. Increased fuel economy when driven "conservatively"
rather than in a "performance" mode

The problems with a Propane Injection system is that the small Propane
bottle has to be refilled relatively frequently and, once installed, are
difficult to remove when taking the vehicle in for Warranty repairs.

The problem with "chipping" via add-on boxes that modify fuel delivery to
the engine is that they're hard to remove and/or replace easily when
taking the vehicle in for Warranty repairs.

Re-programming the engine's computer requires no modification to the
manufacturer's wiring or mechanical systems and can be easily reset to
"factory" while waiting for the Service Writer to appear and, later, to
be reloaded before even leaving the Dealer's lot.

The reason that I brought up the Warranty issue is that some vehicle
owners like to keep their Warranty intact rather than having a Service
Writer take one look under the hood and start beaming with big dollar
signs in his eyes in the full knowledge that he'll get to charge the
owner big bux since the Warranty has been voided.

BTW, if you DO decide to augment your Diesel, be sure to install Exhaust
Gas Temperture and Boost guages first.

RAM³ wrote:.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming, etc. -
one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine.
The propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner
because the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would
be more powerful.

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
RAM³ wrote:.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming, etc. -
one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine. The
propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner because
the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would be more
powerful.

Question: would you pay the money to have this done to your vehicle? A '06
Dodge 2500 Cummins Turbo with 45k miles.

Steve

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
RAM³ wrote:.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming,
etc. - one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine. The
propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner because
the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would be more
powerful.

Question: would you pay the money to have this done to your vehicle? A
'06 Dodge 2500 Cummins Turbo with 45k miles.

Steve


I'm driving an '03.5 Dodge 3500 Cummins Turbo and, at most, would go with a
"programmer" so that I can maintain the Warranty on the Cummins.

I would most emphatically *NOT* put one of the Propane kits on *MY* truck.

If you're trying to run the engine strictly off of Propane, be advised that
you'll have to pony up the *taxes* for a road vehicle yourself since most
Propane dealers don't collect it. Most State Governments get pretty anal
about this issue.

If you're just wanting more HP/Torque, a "programmer" has, as I said,
disticnct advantages over a "hardware" approach.

If you don't care about the Warranty on your fine engine, head on over to
http://www.turbodieselregister.com where you'll find a whole lot of
power-boosting information from a big bunch of *serious* Cummins
Hot-Rodders. GRIN

BTW, My truck is primarily used to tow a 7-ton fifth-wheel RV around the US
West of the Big Muddy and, so far, I've not had much of a power issue even
on 10% grades like the drive into Mt. Rushmore.

"RAM³" wrote in message
...
"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
RAM³ wrote:.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming,
etc. - one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine. The
propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner because
the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would be more
powerful.

Question: would you pay the money to have this done to your vehicle? A
'06 Dodge 2500 Cummins Turbo with 45k miles.

Steve


I'm driving an '03.5 Dodge 3500 Cummins Turbo and, at most, would go with
a "programmer" so that I can maintain the Warranty on the Cummins.

I would most emphatically *NOT* put one of the Propane kits on *MY* truck.

If you're trying to run the engine strictly off of Propane, be advised
that you'll have to pony up the *taxes* for a road vehicle yourself since
most Propane dealers don't collect it. Most State Governments get pretty
anal about this issue.

If you're just wanting more HP/Torque, a "programmer" has, as I said,
disticnct advantages over a "hardware" approach.

If you don't care about the Warranty on your fine engine, head on over to
http://www.turbodieselregister.com where you'll find a whole lot of
power-boosting information from a big bunch of *serious* Cummins
Hot-Rodders. GRIN

BTW, My truck is primarily used to tow a 7-ton fifth-wheel RV around the
US West of the Big Muddy and, so far, I've not had much of a power issue
even on 10% grades like the drive into Mt. Rushmore.

I'm always open to new ideas, but I want to hear from others who have tried
them rather than me being the guinea pig.

That being said, I'm in no rush to go out and start tweaking my Cummins
turbo all over the place, as I think it runs fine as it is. Sure, it could
get more hp, or torque, or better mileage. But, hell, at 325 hp and 610
foot pounds of torque for a truck that runs empty most of the time, I don't
really think I need all that boost. I kind of grew out of that with
pubertyhood, although it's still fun to hot rod in the right places
occasionally.

I'm surely not in a hurry to start changing all sorts of major components.

The claims were very interesting, as I heard an extra 100hp, lots more
torque, and MUCH better mileage, approaching doubling the MPG. I filed it
mentally in the gas magnets/fuel additives category that the evil oil
companies and government stifled because they would ruin the economy and
mankind as we know it now.

I just wanted to know if anyone has done this, how it works, what's the
downsides, etc.

I'm going to have to hear a lot more positives before I even consider this,
and I think I've already made up my mind.

Steve

"RAM³" wrote in message
...

SNIP
If you're trying to run the engine strictly off of Propane, be advised
that you'll have to pony up the *taxes* for a road vehicle yourself since
most Propane dealers don't collect it. Most State Governments get pretty
anal about this issue.

Only if you buy your propane from a retail place, like the tanks at gas
stations...and you won't like the price there anyway. Propane purchased at a
distibutor "as motor fuel" comes with road use taxes of all kinds included,
and still generally less expensive than the retailers sell for. I used to
run a 1 ton truck on propane, so have some idea of what I speak.

regards,
bill

Don Stauffer wrote:
RAM³ wrote:.

The goal of these systems is similar to Nitrous Oxide augmentation of
Gasoline engines: boosting power beyond normal output levels.

As with other augmentation approaches - "chipping", reprogramming,
etc. - one must be cautious lest one "blow" the engine.

Except that Nitrous Oxide adds oxidizer (free oxygen) to the engine. The
propane thing adds a different fuel (hydrocarbon). It is cleaner because
the ratio of hydrogen to carbon is higher. Not sure why it would be more
powerful.

Mainly because the propane hits the combustion chamber and acts as a
catalyst for the diesel fuel. It breaks down chemically and frees oxygen
to help all the fuel burn.
It's not uncommon to see 75-100 HP boost on a street diesel when using
propane injection for performance.

The drawbacks are that you have a second tank to fill and YOU have to
pay the highway use taxes on that fuel, If you go overboard with it you
can achieve the same results as a nitrous kit (BANG).


--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...
Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system.
Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.

Anyone hear of this or can provide info?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be
done." Theodore Roosevelt 1891

I don't know if it's pertinent or not but Cooper Bessemer (and likely
others) have built large engines for many years that are "dual fuel". They
can operate on 100% diesel or on natural gas with a diesel "pilot" injection
only for ignition. They start on diesel and a valving system brings on the
gas as the diesel is reduced. This is very, very old technology and is
commonly used in power plants.

My knowledge came from the power plants for the Safeguard anti-missile
system in the early 70's. The engines normally ran on natural gas but could
go to full diesel in self-contained alert mode when all external systems
were disconnected.

Don Young

In article
nternetservicesprovide
inc,
"Don Young" wrote:

I don't know if it's pertinent or not but Cooper Bessemer (and likely
others) have built large engines for many years that are "dual fuel". They
can operate on 100% diesel or on natural gas with a diesel "pilot" injection
only for ignition. They start on diesel and a valving system brings on the
gas as the diesel is reduced. This is very, very old technology and is
commonly used in power plants.

There is also a modern company that converts diesels to CNG with spark
ignition, claims at least a 25% reduction in fuel costs.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

I'd be real leary of those high hp and efficiency claims. Where do they
get the extra oxygen to combine with the additional fuel?
Dual fuel engines make sense when there's a possibility of running
out of one or the other fuel keeps you up and running.
One of the possibilities that intersts me is running a diesel on
pilot fuel and wood gas.

Saving money on fuel is another issue. If the information that the
claims are based on is only 6-12 months old, the difference in diesel
fuel and propane prices might make the conversion sound real good. But
propane prices have soared so much during that period that any fuel COST
savings may be gone. My propane cost for home heating went from
$1.54/gal to $2.27 during that period.

As far as using a pilot fuel of diesel: I have heard that it doesn't
work well (or maybe not at all) with diesel engines having precombustion
chambers --- direct injection only.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

SteveB wrote:
Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system.
Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.

Anyone hear of this or can provide info?

Steve

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:13:34 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

Today, I saw a company that is promoting a propane/diesel fuel system.
Touted to have all kinds of upsides including increased horsepower and
double fuel efficiency.

Claims probably highly exaggerated as far as fuel economy goes,
probably 10 - 15% better.


I have run an 89 Nissan Patrol on LPG for the last 8 years, however
it is a petrol (gasoline) motor, not diesel. The motor is getting a
bit sick at 385000, the last 120k on lpg.

Current fuel prices near my home are LPG 62.9c, unleaded
$1.43.5, diesel $1.63.9, all per litre, multiply by 3.8 to get
USgallon price.

I filled my Iseki tractor with diesel the other day, just over 16
litres or a bit more than 4 USg, cost $25.

My Patrol costs $56.60 for 90 litres of LPG, $129.15 for unleaded or
if it was diesel, $147.50. Cost of using LPG instead of unleaded is
about 50% as I use about 10% more LPG and drop about 10% power as
well. Acceleration is not exactly mind boggling when towing about 2.5
tonnes of tractor & trailer.

I had considered getting a diesel motor from a wrecker, but with
the high price of diesel fuel I have decided to keep the existing
motor and run it into the ground, with #2 son doing any required
maintenance. He should be able to keep it going as he has got 800+
bhp at the wheels from a GM Gen 3 V8 motor.

You should be able to get some useful info from the following 2 web
sites.

http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au/

http://www.dieselgas.com.au/home.htm

HTH,
Alan