Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. Shook the whole building.

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. Any other thoughts?
thanks

On 2008-08-31, Kelly Jones wrote:
Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. Shook the whole building.

I would, at first, change the RPM from 60 to 45 or, alternatively,
75. This may help if this RPM causes resonance effect. 6x6 is not that
big.

i

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. Any other thoughts?
thanks



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On Aug 31, 11:13*am, "Kelly Jones" wrote:
Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. *I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. *Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. *Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. *Shook the whole building..

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. *Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. *The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. *Any other thoughts?
thanks

"Hot-rolled" and "cold-rolled" are actually finishes, not steel
grades. 1018, 1060 and 1090 are typical steel grade designations and
can be had in both hot-rolled and cold-rolled finishes. What you
really wanted was mild steel, like 1018, in a hot-rolled finish. When
you're shopping the drop boxes, it's hard to say what you'll get.
Probably what you got was somebody's pre-hardened plate remnants. If
it's a straight carbon steel, you'll be able to anneal it the way you
describe. If it's something fancy, like an air-hardening alloy, that
won't do it. Sometimes mystery metal isn't a bargain.

Stan

I do this sort of thing often. I have a large side grinder and grind away
the heat affected zone (HAZ). Doesn't take long with a good grinder. The
rest of the material machines fairly easy.

Karl

What did the material do to your bandsaw blade? Depending on the
bandsaw/blade combination, 1/2 hour may not be too bad. It takes me
about 12 minutes to cut through a 4" round of mild steel on my Taiwan
4X6 inch saw using a fresh Doall Imperial 100 14 tooth blade.

Try a good file on the edge that you are trying to cut. Compare the
"fileability" to some known mild steel (something that does machine well
on your equipment). If it files well, then it's not that hard. If the
file "skates" across the cut edge then it IS hard and definitely is NOT
mild steel. If there is one edge that was not Plasma-cut, try filing
there as well. If the plasma cut edge files about the same as the other
edge, then the heat didn't do it. If the edges file about the same and
file easily, then its your equipment; tooling or machine rigidity.
You didn't say how heavy your tools are. 30 thou on a micro mill may
be too much. Are you taking a full depth (1") cut? Try taking only a
quarter inch at a time. Are your tools sharp?

In any event, if the metal did harden up, the hard zone won't be deep.
Get some carbide cutters to get through it.

One way to get a feel for the material would be to bandsaw a 1/4 inch
wide slice off about 3 or 4 inches long. Heat the piece to red hot (so
a magnet is not attracked to it, plus a little) and quench it in water.
If it gets so hard that the file won't cut it at all, forget that
piece and go get something that is truly mild steel. You don't want to
deal with it at this time anyway. Consider it a lesson learned.

Pete Stanaitis
--------------------------------------


Kelly Jones wrote:
Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. Shook the whole building.

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. Any other thoughts?
thanks

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:13:34 -0700, "Kelly Jones"
wrote:


Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).


It's possible. Should be visible sign of that on the cut edge though.
Shouldn't be thick enough to prevent machining.


Don't bother with lathe or mill for trimming the corners. The bandsaw will do
the job with less effort. If it is too big for the vice, clamp it vertically
and feed very gently until the blade has cut a flat for itself.

If the piece really has got a deep heat-hardened edge, compromise slightly on
flywheel size and trim the HAZ off with the bandsaw.


Mark Rand
RTFM

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:09:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Aug 31, 11:13*am, "Kelly Jones" wrote:
Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. *I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. *Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. *Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. *Shook the whole building.

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. *Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. *The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. *Any other thoughts?
thanks

"Hot-rolled" and "cold-rolled" are actually finishes, not steel
grades. 1018, 1060 and 1090 are typical steel grade designations and
can be had in both hot-rolled and cold-rolled finishes. What you
really wanted was mild steel, like 1018, in a hot-rolled finish. When
you're shopping the drop boxes, it's hard to say what you'll get.
Probably what you got was somebody's pre-hardened plate remnants. If
it's a straight carbon steel, you'll be able to anneal it the way you
describe. If it's something fancy, like an air-hardening alloy, that
won't do it. Sometimes mystery metal isn't a bargain.

Stan


Indeed. I grabbed some 3/8' x 3" by 12" rems

Took em home to make some brackets. Stripped the teeth off a new
bandsaw. WTF?

Put it on the grinder..bright white sparks...wtf

Used the hardness tester...RC 55 aprox

Freaking 20 lbs of D2.....sign....

Too thinck to make knives out of without milling em thinner..did made
some splatter scrappers for MIG welding though.

I got my moneys worth...on stuff I couldnt use for much. Still got
some kicking around..might make some custome shaper tooling out of it

Gunner

"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On 2008-09-01, Gunner Asch wrote:
Freaking 20 lbs of D2.....sign....

I got my moneys worth...on stuff I couldnt use for much. Still got
some kicking around..might make some custome shaper tooling out of it


D2 is used a lot for punch dies. I have some D2 also, it is
unbelievably strong stuff. Cuts steel like butter. I have some
pictures of it he

http://yabe.algebra.com/~ichudov/mis.../Punch-Blanks/

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Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Aug 31, 1:13*pm, "Kelly Jones" wrote:
Hi all.

I'm trying to make a hit and miss engine from plans. *I went down to the
local steel supply company the other day and bought a remnant of 1" X 6" X
26" plate. *Asked for and was told it was hot rolled steel.

Took half an hour to cut it on the band saw. *Loaded the 6" X 6" work piece
on the lathe and started to turn it for one of the flywheels using HSS tool
and 60 RPM, very small feed and depth of cut. *Shook the whole building..

Moved it to the milling machine and started to try to cut the corners off
with similar results. *Made sure I had a new cutter. Small depth of cut
(about 30 thou) and very low feed. *The mill complains mightily.

I am thinking the piece was cut with a plasma torch and is now locally heat
treated (very hard).

Thought about lighting a charcoal fire and throwing it in for a few hours to
see if I could anneal it myself. *Any other thoughts?
thanks

Plasma hardens a thin layer, a cutting torch is worse. I anneal those
pieces in the wood stove overnight. If they are back in a ways away
from the oxygen-rich draft they won't develop much scale. The metal
starts to soften when it turns blue but it's better to heat it to
glowing red, until a magnet doesn't stick, then let it cool slowly at
least until the glow is completely gone. Then you can dip it in water
or let it cool by itself. The old-timers say that quenching when the
red is gone, called water annealing, makes steel the most machineable.
At best I've seen only a slight difference.

You might be able to use it without annealing if you drill a hole near
the hard edge and grind through into the hole. Then the bandsaw can
saw through the rest. Saw the square octagonal by cutting in from a
previous cut, stop before the blade hits the skin, then break the
piece free with a chisel. The lathe bit may work better if you begin
each pass in solid metal and cut outward rather than going across the
edge.

I learned not to buy flame-cut scrap pieces too big to fit the stove.
A couple of them are tractor counterweights.

A plain open fire won't do you much good. If the fire dept. allows it,
try a vertical box of firebricks or fluepipe big enough to hold the
plate upright in the middle so the fire burns on both sides. Support
the plate a few inches above the bottom of the fire. A chimney at
least three or four feet tall should have enough natural draft to heat
the steel red in an hour or so. It will emit showers of sparks but
probably little smoke. I built a blast furnace like this when I was a
kid. The grate was the two halves of a broken garden rake, kept cool
enough to support the metal in the column above it by the incoming
air.

You can grind the thin layer off or try to machine it with carbide.
The tool seems to last longer if the cutting direction allows the hard
skin to chip off. I use a brazed bits because they can be
resharpened.

Good luck with it,
Jim Wilkins

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Don't bother with lathe or mill for trimming the corners. The bandsaw will
do
the job with less effort. If it is too big for the vice, clamp it
vertically
and feed very gently until the blade has cut a flat for itself.

If the piece really has got a deep heat-hardened edge, compromise slightly
on
flywheel size and trim the HAZ off with the bandsaw.


Mark Rand
RTFM

That worked great. I have also determined that it isn't hard throughout,
just about 0.050 deep all along the cut surface. I also checked the mill
for looseness. All I found was some unexpected backlash inthe spindle. I
suspect that as someone else said it was near it's resonante frequency and
the cutter was bouncing back and forth in the backlash as it cut. I bumped
up the speed to around 850 RPM and reduced the cut to less than half the
cutter diameer and no more than 0.100 deep (0.030 deep near the HAZ) and all
seems to be working out.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I am curious now about the backlash in the spindle. This is a "new"
machine, one owner, and low hours. (It's a Grizzly vertical-horizontal
mill.) I haven't seen any wat to adjust this backlash. IT appears to be in
the spline between the spindle and the drive shaft. Any thoughts would be
appreciated.

thanks

Kelly Jones wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Don't bother with lathe or mill for trimming the corners. The
bandsaw will do
the job with less effort. If it is too big for the vice, clamp it
vertically
and feed very gently until the blade has cut a flat for itself.

If the piece really has got a deep heat-hardened edge, compromise
slightly on
flywheel size and trim the HAZ off with the bandsaw.


Mark Rand
RTFM

That worked great. I have also determined that it isn't hard
throughout, just about 0.050 deep all along the cut surface. I also
checked the mill for looseness. All I found was some unexpected
backlash inthe spindle. I suspect that as someone else said it was
near it's resonante frequency and the cutter was bouncing back and
forth in the backlash as it cut. I bumped up the speed to around 850
RPM and reduced the cut to less than half the cutter diameer and no
more than 0.100 deep (0.030 deep near the HAZ) and all seems to be
working out.
Thanks for the suggestions.

I am curious now about the backlash in the spindle. This is a "new"
machine, one owner, and low hours. (It's a Grizzly
vertical-horizontal mill.) I haven't seen any wat to adjust this
backlash. IT appears to be in the spline between the spindle and the
drive shaft. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks

I have a new RF45 clone , it also has backlash in the spindle . Is yours
gear drive ? I'm sure most all of mine is in the drivetrain ... doesn't seem
to make any difference , except a lotta noise on interrupted cuts .
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
. ..


That worked great. I have also determined that it isn't hard
throughout, just about 0.050 deep all along the cut surface. I also
checked the mill for looseness. All I found was some unexpected
backlash inthe spindle. I suspect that as someone else said it was
near it's resonante frequency and the cutter was bouncing back and
forth in the backlash as it cut. I bumped up the speed to around 850
RPM and reduced the cut to less than half the cutter diameer and no
more than 0.100 deep (0.030 deep near the HAZ) and all seems to be
working out.
Thanks for the suggestions.

I am curious now about the backlash in the spindle. This is a "new"
machine, one owner, and low hours. (It's a Grizzly
vertical-horizontal mill.) I haven't seen any wat to adjust this
backlash. IT appears to be in the spline between the spindle and the
drive shaft. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks

I have a new RF45 clone , it also has backlash in the spindle . Is yours
gear drive ? I'm sure most all of mine is in the drivetrain ... doesn't
seem to make any difference , except a lotta noise on interrupted cuts .
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck


no, belt drive. I never noticed it before now.