Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of the
side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on such a
contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to keep as
much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in height to work
with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also need to be able to
extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36" to 42". The trolley
for the hoist will need to travel the entire length of the track or rather
from the drivers side clear out the passenger side door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a "C"
cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the outer
tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I" beam that
is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.

Thanks!

C

On Aug 10, 6:43*am, "croq" wrote:
Hi Folks,
I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of the
side opening of a van. *...
C

http://www.bruno.com/

Installation is fairly easy as long as you can find or make a strong
attachment point.

Jim Wilkins

You can nest (telescope) two pieces of square tubing, as is done in,
for example, a Harbor Freight "shop crane" aka "engine hoist". Drill
some holes for a holding pin. Add a wider flat on the bottom of both
parts so that you can have a trolley. In the case of those flats,
obviously, you would need to remove and insert the thinner tube with
every use, instead of telescoping.

In most cases, a winch and a set of ramps would work well also.

i


on 2008-08-10, croq wrote:
Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of the
side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on such a
contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to keep as
much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in height to work
with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also need to be able to
extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36" to 42". The trolley
for the hoist will need to travel the entire length of the track or rather
from the drivers side clear out the passenger side door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a "C"
cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the outer
tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I" beam that
is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.

Thanks!

C

"croq" wrote: I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will
extend out of the
side opening of a van. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You will also need a vertical support outside the van--otherwise, the weight
will make the van lean to that side. Such a support could be hinged to the
end of the track, or simply placed by hand each time the crane is used. It
could be as simple as a 2 x 4 and a scissor jack. It will also allow you to
use a lighter beam for the track, since you won't be using a cantilever.

In article ,
"croq" wrote:

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of the
side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on such a
contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to keep as
much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in height to work
with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs.

IIRC there are some drawer slides that can handle heavy loads

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

"croq" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of
the side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on
such a contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to
keep as much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in
height to work with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also
need to be able to extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36"
to 42". The trolley for the hoist will need to travel the entire length
of the track or rather from the drivers side clear out the passenger side
door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a
"C" cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the
outer tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I"
beam that is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.

ATM removal tool?

Bob La Londe wrote:
"croq" wrote in message
...

Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of
the side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on
such a contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to
keep as much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in
height to work with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also
need to be able to extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36"
to 42". The trolley for the hoist will need to travel the entire length
of the track or rather from the drivers side clear out the passenger side
door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a
"C" cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the
outer tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I"
beam that is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.


ATM removal tool?

You mean one of these?
http://www.publiquip.com/photo/JCB-3CX-Backhoe-K.jpg

Chris

"Ignoramus6985" wrote in message
...
You can nest (telescope) two pieces of square tubing, as is done in,
for example, a Harbor Freight "shop crane" aka "engine hoist". Drill
some holes for a holding pin. Add a wider flat on the bottom of both
parts so that you can have a trolley. In the case of those flats,
obviously, you would need to remove and insert the thinner tube with
every use, instead of telescoping.

In most cases, a winch and a set of ramps would work well also.

i

I need to avoid a possible drop hazard so it must remain a unit. The
addition of a flat may come in handy as far as support for the cantilevered
piece.

Thanks
C

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"croq" wrote: I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that
will extend out of the
side opening of a van. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You will also need a vertical support outside the van--otherwise, the
weight will make the van lean to that side. Such a support could be
hinged to the end of the track, or simply placed by hand each time the
crane is used. It could be as simple as a 2 x 4 and a scissor jack. It
will also allow you to use a lighter beam for the track, since you won't
be using a cantilever.


Thanks Leo, I can not have a support leg outside the van. I can imagine a
little lean but nothing unsafe for a full size GMC Savannah or Ford E350.
400 pounds is the outside maximum capacity this will ever see and odds are
it will never be over 200.

Thanks again

C

"nick hull" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"croq" wrote:

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of
the
side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on such
a
contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to keep as
much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in height to
work
with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs.

IIRC there are some drawer slides that can handle heavy loads

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

Thanks Nick I'll check into those.

C

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"croq" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of
the side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on
such a contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to
keep as much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in
height to work with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also
need to be able to extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36"
to 42". The trolley for the hoist will need to travel the entire length
of the track or rather from the drivers side clear out the passenger side
door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a
"C" cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the
outer tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I"
beam that is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.

ATM removal tool?


Had not thought of alternative uses at this point Bob however I like the
idea. Actually this device will be used to transfer my wheelchair
bound sister. Ironically, she can not travel in the wheelchair.

C

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:15:04 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"croq" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out of
the side opening of a van. I'm wondering if anyone might have a lead on
such a contraption or advice on how to accomplish this feat. I need to
keep as much headroom as possible so I have approximately 4 inches in
height to work with. Maximum weight capacity would be 400 lbs. I also
need to be able to extend the end of the track out of the van roughly 36"
to 42". The trolley for the hoist will need to travel the entire length
of the track or rather from the drivers side clear out the passenger side
door.

So far I figure I either need to use nesting tube steel/aluminum with a
"C" cross section in order to have a trolley inside the inner tube, the
outer tube mounted to the van. Or I need to hang a trolley on an "I"
beam that is hanging from another "I" beam.

Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would be
most welcome.

ATM removal tool?


Had not thought of alternative uses at this point Bob however I like the
idea. Actually this device will be used to transfer my wheelchair
bound sister. Ironically, she can not travel in the wheelchair.

I can hear your sister now..."What's all this grease on the floor and
greasy fingerprints all over my lift, hmmm?" g

See www.Accuride.com for their #9301 slides. You'll likely need some
sort of damper for them, either air or hydraulic, for safety.
They're $160-$350 a pair, depending on size and where you buy them.
Shop around.

Will you be transferring her to a mobile bed in the van, or regular
vehicular seats?

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:15:04 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"croq" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

I have a need to build a track for a cable hoist that will extend out
of
the side opening of a van.
Any other ideas or specs on wall thickness, tube size, beam size would
be
most welcome.

ATM removal tool?


Had not thought of alternative uses at this point Bob however I like the
idea. Actually this device will be used to transfer my wheelchair
bound sister. Ironically, she can not travel in the wheelchair.

I can hear your sister now..."What's all this grease on the floor and
greasy fingerprints all over my lift, hmmm?" g

See www.Accuride.com for their #9301 slides. You'll likely need some
sort of damper for them, either air or hydraulic, for safety.
They're $160-$350 a pair, depending on size and where you buy them.
Shop around.

Will you be transferring her to a mobile bed in the van, or regular
vehicular seats?

Hey Larry, Unless I can find a safe way of strapping her into a bed we'll
be transferring to an upgraded automotive reclining seat.

C

"croq" wrote: (clip) I can imagine a
little lean but nothing unsafe for a full size GMC Savannah or Ford E350.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wasn't thinking of safety. I was thinking of a way to make the
construction lighter. But, you also need to consider that whatever lean
there is will make your extended track slope. You will have to plan on that
when you are moving your sister in her wheelchair into and out of the van.
(Not being critical--trying to be helpful.)

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"croq" wrote: (clip) I can imagine a
little lean but nothing unsafe for a full size GMC Savannah or Ford E350.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wasn't thinking of safety. I was thinking of a way to make the
construction lighter. But, you also need to consider that whatever lean
there is will make your extended track slope. You will have to plan on
that when you are moving your sister in her wheelchair into and out of the
van. (Not being critical--trying to be helpful.)


Thanks Leo,

I appreciate the help! I have to admit I knew I would have to watch where
I parked because of the tilt on the beam but it did not occur to me her
weight could cause the same problem. Tis why I like this group, all the
holes in an idea are soon found. As Larry had pointed out a damper would be
necessary, I thought a power extend/retract feature would be a great option.
After caring for her for 35 years I'm getting a little old and slow to keep
throwing my body between her and whatever harm is waiting to surprise us.
I need to start doing that work smarter verses harder idea I keep reading
about.


C

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:40:07 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"croq" wrote: (clip) I can imagine a
little lean but nothing unsafe for a full size GMC Savannah or Ford E350.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wasn't thinking of safety. I was thinking of a way to make the
construction lighter. But, you also need to consider that whatever lean
there is will make your extended track slope. You will have to plan on
that when you are moving your sister in her wheelchair into and out of the
van. (Not being critical--trying to be helpful.)


Thanks Leo,

I appreciate the help! I have to admit I knew I would have to watch where
I parked because of the tilt on the beam but it did not occur to me her
weight could cause the same problem. Tis why I like this group, all the
holes in an idea are soon found. As Larry had pointed out a damper would be
necessary, I thought a power extend/retract feature would be a great option.

Yes, power movement is a great idea. It would overcome any tilt
problem, allowing you to pick her up from any angle.

Have you figured out a 4-point people-harness for her? You could set
it open in her wheelchair and drop her on it, then use it to lift her
into and out of the vehicle as needed. One other potential problem is
between a homemade medical lift and your insurance company.


After caring for her for 35 years I'm getting a little old and slow to keep
throwing my body between her and whatever harm is waiting to surprise us.
I need to start doing that work smarter verses harder idea I keep reading
about.

Definitely. It could save you an injury which would prevent you from
being able to care for her, too. You sound like much too good a
sibling to want that.

Which automotive seat will you be using?


BTW, please keep us informed. This is an interesting thread!

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:40:07 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:



Have you figured out a 4-point people-harness for her? You could set
it open in her wheelchair and drop her on it, then use it to lift her
into and out of the vehicle as needed. One other potential problem is
between a homemade medical lift and your insurance company.


Of course designing a better harness and lift would be my goal,
understandably I'd have a hard time getting the engineers in here to put
their seal on a people lifter. So with that knowledge I have been looking
at the Liko portable lift.
http://www.liko.se/web/bildarkiv/mul...-res/25-02.jpg They already
have slings and as you point out she could remain sitting on the sling while
driving.




After caring for her for 35 years I'm getting a little old and slow to
keep
throwing my body between her and whatever harm is waiting to surprise us.
I need to start doing that work smarter verses harder idea I keep reading
about.

Definitely. It could save you an injury which would prevent you from
being able to care for her, too. You sound like much too good a
sibling to want that.


Thanks, this is what I am after but with the abuse I have subjected my back
too already, lifting 130 lbs ten to twenty times a day for the last few
decades, it's getting more and more difficult to get the vertebrae excited
about the day.

Which automotive seat will you be using?


This is still open. I have done percursory searches to see what is
available. She can not communicate so I have to go with what I assume would
be the most comfortable, PLUSH. This is not a supplier but a decent example
http://www.elkapitan.com/conquestlopop1.html Nice side and decent lumbar
support that reclines and possibly has a foot rest. Another example
http://www.rvandvansurplus.com/eshop...uctCode=102004

We take for granted the ability to fidget while we are driving but she is
stuck until someone moves her or her legs. Obviously reclining would be the
best help so as to move the pressure areas around a little quicker
preventing a stop every 15-20 minutes to slide her hips around. I'll tell
you, a 100 mile trip is a major excursion for us.


BTW, please keep us informed. This is an interesting thread!

Will do, cost is my only constraint. The plan is to aquire the van first
then add the high top conversion if it does not already have one. Next
would be the lift. The local dealer priced it at $2800 however I have yet
to find any special needs equipment dealer that has even seen this style of
lift in person. I may be able to find a dealer that would sell at cost just
to see it work(at least it works that way in my dreams). Some carpet, some
baling wire, a few stitches and I'll have a $25,000 conversion van for
$35,000.

Isn't that the reason to do it yourself? It will cost more but in smaller
increments so you don't notice it. hehehe

Thanks for ALL the help, it is much appreciated!

C

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:06:52 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:40:07 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:



Have you figured out a 4-point people-harness for her? You could set
it open in her wheelchair and drop her on it, then use it to lift her
into and out of the vehicle as needed. One other potential problem is
between a homemade medical lift and your insurance company.


Of course designing a better harness and lift would be my goal,
understandably I'd have a hard time getting the engineers in here to put
their seal on a people lifter. So with that knowledge I have been looking
at the Liko portable lift.
http://www.liko.se/web/bildarkiv/mul...-res/25-02.jpg They already
have slings and as you point out she could remain sitting on the sling while
driving.

While _driving_? With the hoist in the back of the van, I had
imagined her to be the passenger. To hoist her into the driver's
seat, ah reckon you need a whole 'nother pivoting/rolling setup.

Draw us perspective diagrams with measurements, eh?


After caring for her for 35 years I'm getting a little old and slow to
keep
throwing my body between her and whatever harm is waiting to surprise us.
I need to start doing that work smarter verses harder idea I keep reading
about.

Definitely. It could save you an injury which would prevent you from
being able to care for her, too. You sound like much too good a
sibling to want that.


Thanks, this is what I am after but with the abuse I have subjected my back
too already, lifting 130 lbs ten to twenty times a day for the last few
decades, it's getting more and more difficult to get the vertebrae excited
about the day.

I hear that. I help lift a 93 y/o man into his Bronco once or twice a
month for doctor and bank visits. He's 230 lbs and weakens by the day.
I have to be very careful to keep the load close or I'll screw my own
back up again. Most of my problems are in the upper thoracic area (T3,
top of the shoulder blades, guys) so I have no possibility of lifting
at an extension at all any more. But I can lift 200 lbs at my body.

I was cleaning my mechanic's rolling toolbox one day (about 35 years
ago) when I removed the bottom drawer. I thought it might be 100 lbs
and it turned out to be closer to 200. As soon as it came loose from
the drawer slides, it took me to the ground with it. I heard a
vertebra pop and knew something had given from the weight. Luckily, I
recovered from that after taking it easy for a week and it has never
botherd me at all. I'm thankful for that.


Which automotive seat will you be using?


This is still open. I have done percursory searches to see what is
available. She can not communicate so I have to go with what I assume would
be the most comfortable, PLUSH. This is not a supplier but a decent example
http://www.elkapitan.com/conquestlopop1.html Nice side and decent lumbar
support that reclines and possibly has a foot rest. Another example
http://www.rvandvansurplus.com/eshop...uctCode=102004

We take for granted the ability to fidget while we are driving but she is
stuck until someone moves her or her legs. Obviously reclining would be the
best help so as to move the pressure areas around a little quicker
preventing a stop every 15-20 minutes to slide her hips around. I'll tell
you, a 100 mile trip is a major excursion for us.

From what you said above, I thought she would be driving. I'm sure
confused.


BTW, please keep us informed. This is an interesting thread!

Will do, cost is my only constraint. The plan is to aquire the van first
then add the high top conversion if it does not already have one. Next
would be the lift. The local dealer priced it at $2800 however I have yet
to find any special needs equipment dealer that has even seen this style of
lift in person. I may be able to find a dealer that would sell at cost just
to see it work(at least it works that way in my dreams). Some carpet, some
baling wire, a few stitches and I'll have a $25,000 conversion van for
$35,000.

Yeah, call around and get pricing for all those med devices. There has
to be thousands of dollars of wiggle room there. I think my sister
still has an older Dodge wheelchair van for sale. It needs a
transmission rebuild. She bought it from a guy "cheap" and was going
to resell it "high" when the transmichigan popped.


Isn't that the reason to do it yourself? It will cost more but in smaller
increments so you don't notice it. hehehe

Yeah, we've all had those expensive DIY projects, but the kicker is
that we get to KEEP ALL THE TOOLS when we're done. It doesn't get any
better than that.


Thanks for ALL the help, it is much appreciated!

De nada.

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

"Larry Jaques" wrote: (clip) While _driving_? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a little glitch in Croq's grammar--I'm SURE he meant "while I'm
driving." However, if you were trying to be funny, look for a less
sensitive subject.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:06:52 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


While _driving_? With the hoist in the back of the van, I had
imagined her to be the passenger. To hoist her into the driver's
seat, ah reckon you need a whole 'nother pivoting/rolling setup.


Sorry, as Leo pointed out, my grammar sucks(my opinion). I did mean while
I'm driving. I should not post at 4am.


Draw us perspective diagrams with measurements, eh?

As soon as I get Google Sketch figured out.




I hear that. I help lift a 93 y/o man into his Bronco once or twice a
month for doctor and bank visits. He's 230 lbs and weakens by the day.
I have to be very careful to keep the load close or I'll screw my own
back up again. Most of my problems are in the upper thoracic area (T3,
top of the shoulder blades, guys) so I have no possibility of lifting
at an extension at all any more. But I can lift 200 lbs at my body.

Have you tried using a Gait belt on the man? It gives you better handle and
may allow you to keep everything closer to your body.

C

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:13:54 -0500, "croq"
wrote:

snip
Draw us perspective diagrams with measurements, eh?

As soon as I get Google Sketch figured out.

Good old paper, pencil (colored if you want to get fancy)
and a digital camera and/or scanner gets the job done too.
If you just want to convey an idea and not exact dimensions
probably a lot quicker too

Don't try to post/tack it on in this group though. Post a
link here to a web page or photo-server with your images.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:56:04 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Leo
Lichtman" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote: (clip) While _driving_? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a little glitch in Croq's grammar--I'm SURE he meant "while I'm
driving." However, if you were trying to be funny, look for a less
sensitive subject.

Ho hum. To the politically correct, _no_ subject is proper for humor,
so I don't even try to comply. (F'rinstance, see dead baby joke below)
AFAIC, sensitivity trainers can KMA, too.

Q: What do you call that blue thing in the corner?
A: A baby in a baggie.


P.S: Had you tried reading the whole message, you whould have been
able to clearly see whether or not I was trying to be funny, Leo.

P.P.S: You can find other dead baby jokes (and MORE!) at
alt.tasteless.jokes on a server near you!

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:13:54 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:06:52 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"croq" quickly quoth:


While _driving_? With the hoist in the back of the van, I had
imagined her to be the passenger. To hoist her into the driver's
seat, ah reckon you need a whole 'nother pivoting/rolling setup.


Sorry, as Leo pointed out, my grammar sucks(my opinion). I did mean while
I'm driving. I should not post at 4am.

As I read on, I kinda figgered dat.


Draw us perspective diagrams with measurements, eh?

As soon as I get Google Sketch figured out.

Cool program, isn't it?


I hear that. I help lift a 93 y/o man into his Bronco once or twice a
month for doctor and bank visits. He's 230 lbs and weakens by the day.
I have to be very careful to keep the load close or I'll screw my own
back up again. Most of my problems are in the upper thoracic area (T3,
top of the shoulder blades, guys) so I have no possibility of lifting
at an extension at all any more. But I can lift 200 lbs at my body.

Have you tried using a Gait belt on the man? It gives you better handle and
may allow you to keep everything closer to your body.

No, but I'll look into it. Thanks.

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

"Larry Jaques" wrote: Ho hum. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh, yeah. I remember you now. That is evidently your favorite line, even
ahead of the John Patrick one.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:47:43 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Leo
Lichtman" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote: Ho hum. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh, yeah. I remember you now. That is evidently your favorite line, even
ahead of the John Patrick one.

What's a "Jonh Patrick one", Leo?

--
Pain makes man think. Thought makes man wise. Wisdom makes life endurable.
-- John Patrick

"Larry Jaques" wrote: What's a "Jonh Patrick one", Leo?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can't remember it exactly, but you could look it up. Something like,
"Pain makes man cry. Thought makes man hesitant. Wisdom eludes me at the
moment."