After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
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Ignoramus25555 wrote:

After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

The "purple" HVLP conversion type guns from Harbor Freight have a number
of positive reviews from various auto body forums. A friend of mine got
one and uses it for poly on woodworking projects and reports it works
well. These guns are regularly on sale for $40 or less and there are a
couple sizes and a version with a remote paint tank.


2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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posting on Usenet.
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"Ignoramus25555" wrote in message
...
After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.


I have a binks HVLP gun, a high end chinese gun, and a harbor freight gun, -
I haven't used the harbor freight one yet - the binks cost $450, the chinese
one $150, the HF $14 - I use the binks for putting paint on cars, I use the
chinese one for putting primer on cars - I also used it to paint the imron
on my delta drill press (photos on my web site) - the Binks is nicer - you
can decide if it's enough nicer


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On 2008-06-16, William Noble wrote:

"Ignoramus25555" wrote in message
...
After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.


I have a binks HVLP gun, a high end chinese gun, and a harbor freight gun, -
I haven't used the harbor freight one yet - the binks cost $450, the chinese
one $150, the HF $14 - I use the binks for putting paint on cars, I use the
chinese one for putting primer on cars - I also used it to paint the imron
on my delta drill press (photos on my web site) - the Binks is nicer - you
can decide if it's enough nicer

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:57:48 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?

Generally, you figure out what paints you want to shoot and match the
gun to that range. (Unless you're too che^H^H^Hfrugal, as I am.)

HVLPs don't shoot latex well at all, but warming the paint, adding
thinner and Floetrol helps a whole lot. That's all I've shot with my
HF HVLP gun so far.

Alkyd and oil paints shoot a bit better with their lighter
viscosities. Your gun should have a suggested thinning and mixing
chart in the instructions, Ig.

Also, buy a viscosity cup and use it. I found that and cheap filter
cones on eBay. Use them every time and clean up the gun with the
proper solvents the -second- you stop shooting with it.

--
Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is a nobler art of
leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination
of nonessentials. -- Lin Yutang

On 2008-06-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:57:48 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?

Generally, you figure out what paints you want to shoot and match the
gun to that range. (Unless you're too che^H^H^Hfrugal, as I am.)

HVLPs don't shoot latex well at all, but warming the paint, adding
thinner and Floetrol helps a whole lot. That's all I've shot with my
HF HVLP gun so far.

Alkyd and oil paints shoot a bit better with their lighter
viscosities. Your gun should have a suggested thinning and mixing
chart in the instructions, Ig.

Also, buy a viscosity cup and use it. I found that and cheap filter
cones on eBay. Use them every time and clean up the gun with the
proper solvents the -second- you stop shooting with it.


Thanks Larry. I am very excited about this HVLP concept. I hope that
it works as well as I imagine.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:24:00 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

On 2008-06-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:57:48 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?

Generally, you figure out what paints you want to shoot and match the
gun to that range. (Unless you're too che^H^H^Hfrugal, as I am.)

HVLPs don't shoot latex well at all, but warming the paint, adding
thinner and Floetrol helps a whole lot. That's all I've shot with my
HF HVLP gun so far.

Alkyd and oil paints shoot a bit better with their lighter
viscosities. Your gun should have a suggested thinning and mixing
chart in the instructions, Ig.

Also, buy a viscosity cup and use it. I found that and cheap filter
cones on eBay. Use them every time and clean up the gun with the
proper solvents the -second- you stop shooting with it.


Thanks Larry. I am very excited about this HVLP concept. I hope that
it works as well as I imagine.

It doesn't work much better than a good gun, but it sure is less messy
and cheaper to use with expensive products. I haven't really gotten a
lot of experience with it yet, but I picked up Andy Charron's painting
books so I could look into it more deeply when that bug bit me, too.
http://tinyurl.com/4gu8us and http://tinyurl.com/44365u

I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

I repainted my old 1920 Davis and Wells table saw with an alkyd paint,
but I used a brush. (This was before I got the HVLP gun.) It went on
nicely and self-leveled wonderfully. Spraying is quicker, though, but
not by much once you've included mixing and cleanup chores in the
overall time.

--
Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is a nobler art of
leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination
of nonessentials. -- Lin Yutang

On 2008-06-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:24:00 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

On 2008-06-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:57:48 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?

Generally, you figure out what paints you want to shoot and match the
gun to that range. (Unless you're too che^H^H^Hfrugal, as I am.)

HVLPs don't shoot latex well at all, but warming the paint, adding
thinner and Floetrol helps a whole lot. That's all I've shot with my
HF HVLP gun so far.

Alkyd and oil paints shoot a bit better with their lighter
viscosities. Your gun should have a suggested thinning and mixing
chart in the instructions, Ig.

Also, buy a viscosity cup and use it. I found that and cheap filter
cones on eBay. Use them every time and clean up the gun with the
proper solvents the -second- you stop shooting with it.


Thanks Larry. I am very excited about this HVLP concept. I hope that
it works as well as I imagine.

It doesn't work much better than a good gun, but it sure is less messy
and cheaper to use with expensive products. I haven't really gotten a
lot of experience with it yet, but I picked up Andy Charron's painting
books so I could look into it more deeply when that bug bit me, too.
http://tinyurl.com/4gu8us and http://tinyurl.com/44365u

Just bought the first one that you mentioned. Thank you.

I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

I repainted my old 1920 Davis and Wells table saw with an alkyd paint,
but I used a brush. (This was before I got the HVLP gun.) It went on
nicely and self-leveled wonderfully. Spraying is quicker, though, but
not by much once you've included mixing and cleanup chores in the
overall time.


I think that I want to paint my trailer, as I do not want it to rust.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

It doesn't work much better than a good gun, but it sure is less messy
and cheaper to use with expensive products. I haven't really gotten a
lot of experience with it yet, but I picked up Andy Charron's painting
books so I could look into it more deeply when that bug bit me, too.
http://tinyurl.com/4gu8us and http://tinyurl.com/44365u

I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

I repainted my old 1920 Davis and Wells table saw with an alkyd paint,
but I used a brush. (This was before I got the HVLP gun.) It went on
nicely and self-leveled wonderfully. Spraying is quicker, though, but
not by much once you've included mixing and cleanup chores in the
overall time.

--
Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is a nobler art of
leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination
of nonessentials. -- Lin Yutang


I have been using these disposable paint cups on my gravity feed guns. They
pay for themselves in saved time, lacquer thinner and disposal costs.
I get mine through my Auto Value PPG paint rep. Here is the same product
online. There is also a gun cleaning bottle available although I can't find
it online that really saves on thinner usage too. Similar to this but mine
has a different cap and tube. Devilbiss DPC-8 Gun Cleaning Bottle

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com
or
http://www.handsontools.com/
search for
RBL 325 Disposable Economy Paint Cup & Filter System, 50/bx

Steve

Ignoramus21958 wrote:


Thanks Larry. I am very excited about this HVLP concept. I hope that
it works as well as I imagine.

For me, painting has had the biggest learning curve of any of the skills I
have learned. Here are some hints that have worked for me:

As with any gun, disassemble and clean the gun when you are finished. Skip
mineral spirits and go for lacquer thinner. Much hotter. You can reclaim
dirty solvent to clean dirty gun parts. You can usually get away with only
a few ounces of fresh clean solvent each go around. Wear nitrile gloves.

If your gun isn't equipped with an air pressure valve, put one in line right
before the gun. It makes adjustment much easier. You'll need less air
than you think. Start with the paint and air valves closed & work up to
acceptable coverage. Otherwise you'll have overspray all over the garage,
house, hvac system, etc...

Use a mesh strainer. With cheaper paints, all kinds of debris is filtered
out.

Use a good quality respirator with the appropriate filters. I use a 3M 6200
facepiece with 3M 6001 filters.

Use good paint. I use Sherwin Williams. Cheap paint will have you chasing
your tail trying to figure out what the problem is. Most of the painting I
do is ironwork. I use industrial alkyd enamels reduced with xylene.

I usually get the worst results with fast-dry paint.

Don't paint too thick of a coat. It'll take forever and a day to dry.

Obviously store paint and solvents away from ignition sources, preferably in
a haz-mat cabinet.

I'm not a painter, I'm an "AINT"-er.

Happy shootin'

--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

The cheapy HF units are just fine.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Ignoramus25555 wrote:
After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:24:00 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

On 2008-06-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:57:48 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus21958 quickly quoth:

I bought an Ingersoll rand HVLP gun. I figured that they would not
make junk.

http://www.amazon.com/Ingersoll-Rand.../dp/B001AKHUTS

(not an affiliate link)

What sorts of paints can I use with them? Will thinned oil paint work?

Generally, you figure out what paints you want to shoot and match the
gun to that range. (Unless you're too che^H^H^Hfrugal, as I am.)

HVLPs don't shoot latex well at all, but warming the paint, adding
thinner and Floetrol helps a whole lot. That's all I've shot with my
HF HVLP gun so far.

Alkyd and oil paints shoot a bit better with their lighter
viscosities. Your gun should have a suggested thinning and mixing
chart in the instructions, Ig.

Also, buy a viscosity cup and use it. I found that and cheap filter
cones on eBay. Use them every time and clean up the gun with the
proper solvents the -second- you stop shooting with it.


Thanks Larry. I am very excited about this HVLP concept. I hope that
it works as well as I imagine.

It doesn't work much better than a good gun, but it sure is less messy
and cheaper to use with expensive products. I haven't really gotten a
lot of experience with it yet, but I picked up Andy Charron's painting
books so I could look into it more deeply when that bug bit me, too.
http://tinyurl.com/4gu8us and http://tinyurl.com/44365u

I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

That's why I used acrylic lacquer on the three cars I painted in years past.
First, I was able to use an oilless, tankless Sears compressor. It was
plenty of pressure and volume. Second, in no time at all, you can sand the
last layer you screwed up right off of there, and shoot it again until you
get it right.

It may not be the toughest paint around, but five or six coats and some
elbow grease sure does make it shine. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:32:00 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Up
North" quickly quoth:

I said:
I repainted my old 1920 Davis and Wells table saw with an alkyd paint,
but I used a brush. (This was before I got the HVLP gun.) It went on
nicely and self-leveled wonderfully. Spraying is quicker, though, but
not by much once you've included mixing and cleanup chores in the
overall time.

I have been using these disposable paint cups on my gravity feed guns. They
pay for themselves in saved time, lacquer thinner and disposal costs.
I get mine through my Auto Value PPG paint rep. Here is the same product
online. There is also a gun cleaning bottle available although I can't find
it online that really saves on thinner usage too. Similar to this but mine
has a different cap and tube. Devilbiss DPC-8 Gun Cleaning Bottle

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com

That's $80 delivered to me, a few more than I'd need for a decade or
two. They look handy for frequent painters, though.

--
The only way not to think about money is to have a great deal of it.
-- Edith Wharton

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:32:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

That's why I used acrylic lacquer on the three cars I painted in years past.
First, I was able to use an oilless, tankless Sears compressor. It was
plenty of pressure and volume. Second, in no time at all, you can sand the
last layer you screwed up right off of there, and shoot it again until you
get it right.

Lacquer is sweet, isn't it? I often helped the painter prep cars (OK,
for a few minutes at a time, waiting for the beer to get there) and
the acrylic lacquers were easy to smooth/remove runs. That guy,
Dennis, could make any metalflake stand at precisely the correct angle
to match the existing paint and the repainted patch would be invisible
5 years later. Other painters' work would start showing flaws within a
few months. Dennis was a true artist with a gun.


It may not be the toughest paint around, but five or six coats and some
elbow grease sure does make it shine. d8-)

Now put on a polymer sealant and it'll shine without added elbows.
The Scot side of me likes NuFinish, $6.50 at Wally. Easy wipeon, easy
buffoff. A better finish, which I'll try when this jug is gone, is
Klasse (German import, about $20.)

--
The only way not to think about money is to have a great deal of it.
-- Edith Wharton

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:32:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
I found out that the local shops wanted FOUR GRAND to paint a truck.
I bought the gun and then sold my old truck complete with blems
instead of repainting it, figuring that the paint job would probably
only fetch another $500 and might cost $300 to shoot. I sold my Ford
for $1,100 instead of maybe $1,600.

The thick enamel I shot with the gun did tend to blotch until I got it
thinner, then it tended to run. Isn't experience fun to gather?

That's why I used acrylic lacquer on the three cars I painted in years
past.
First, I was able to use an oilless, tankless Sears compressor. It was
plenty of pressure and volume. Second, in no time at all, you can sand the
last layer you screwed up right off of there, and shoot it again until you
get it right.

Lacquer is sweet, isn't it?

Yes. For the beginner who wants the job to turn out right, and who doesn't
mind sanding out his mistakes, it's damned near sure-fire. Since I painted a
car about every two or three years, there was no way I was going to
accumulate enough experience to get a good-looking job with enamel, and I
don't even want to think about what I'd have to go through to spray
polyurethane. I'll leave those for the experts. Lacquer is for everyman, and
it can look great if you don't mind putting in some work.

I often helped the painter prep cars (OK,
for a few minutes at a time, waiting for the beer to get there) and
the acrylic lacquers were easy to smooth/remove runs. That guy,
Dennis, could make any metalflake stand at precisely the correct angle
to match the existing paint and the repainted patch would be invisible
5 years later. Other painters' work would start showing flaws within a
few months. Dennis was a true artist with a gun.

I'd never even attempt it. That's where it's worth it to pay an experienced
hand.

It may not be the toughest paint around, but five or six coats and some
elbow grease sure does make it shine. d8-)

Now put on a polymer sealant and it'll shine without added elbows.

Well, I was talking about sanding out the orange peel and the dry spray and
runs. A series of wet-and-dry, up to 800 grit (I went to 2,000 the last
time, but it wasn't worth it, because the rubbing compound did the job just
as well after 800) will take care of anything but fisheye. Then the DuPont
No. 7, good wax, and it's done.

The Scot side of me likes NuFinish, $6.50 at Wally. Easy wipeon, easy
buffoff.

I never did like the stuff. I used it on my wife's Mazda (an '87, notorious
for its soft paint) and it just didn't shine as well as it did when I used
Meguiar's. I did patch comparisons and I could see the difference.

I used Classic in the old days, and Meguiar's more recently. Classic was
really great for hand waxing the softer finishes like lacquer because it had
a lot of jeweler's rouge in it. It wasn't very good on harder paints.

A better finish, which I'll try when this jug is gone, is
Klasse (German import, about $20.)

I'll keep it in mind.

--
Ed Huntress

notes on lacquer

1. it is brittle and it shrinks as it dries - thick coats will crack - I
have to redo some of a car that has never been out of the garage for this
reason

2. it is not available in districts where VOC is an issue, such as much of
California

3. a trick with lacquer - sand to about 400 and get it flat, then spray a
thin coat of slow thinner - that will give you the shine and let you quickly
see if your job is any good - not like a buffed shine but plenty good enough
to look for little ripples and whatnot


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

I have been using these disposable paint cups on my gravity feed guns.
They
pay for themselves in saved time, lacquer thinner and disposal costs.
I get mine through my Auto Value PPG paint rep. Here is the same product
online. There is also a gun cleaning bottle available although I can't
find
it online that really saves on thinner usage too. Similar to this but mine
has a different cap and tube. Devilbiss DPC-8 Gun Cleaning Bottle

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com



That's $80 delivered to me, a few more than I'd need for a decade or
two. They look handy for frequent painters, though.


Yes, they do seem expensive for a box of 50 and that is how I buy them.
About a buck apiece and no shipping. They should be available individually
through a body shop or paint supplier as they are with my source. Handy also
for storing unused paint for a week or two and swapping colors in the middle
of a job.
Steve

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:22:37 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Up
North" quickly quoth:

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com

That's $80 delivered to me, a few more than I'd need for a decade or
two. They look handy for frequent painters, though.

Yes, they do seem expensive for a box of 50 and that is how I buy them.
About a buck apiece and no shipping. They should be available individually
through a body shop or paint supplier as they are with my source. Handy also
for storing unused paint for a week or two and swapping colors in the middle
of a job.

Steve, how do you remove the cup without losing paint?!?

--
The only way not to think about money is to have a great deal of it.
-- Edith Wharton

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:22:37 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Up
North" quickly quoth:

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com

That's $80 delivered to me, a few more than I'd need for a decade or
two. They look handy for frequent painters, though.

Yes, they do seem expensive for a box of 50 and that is how I buy them.
About a buck apiece and no shipping. They should be available individually
through a body shop or paint supplier as they are with my source. Handy
also
for storing unused paint for a week or two and swapping colors in the
middle
of a job.

Steve, how do you remove the cup without losing paint?!?

I put the plug in the vent, flip the gun upside down put the lid on the work
bench and unscrew the gun. The cups come with a plug for both the vent and
the bottom or gun end.
Steve

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:30:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Up
North" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:22:37 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Up
North" quickly quoth:

http://www.handsontools.com/store-pr...hopzilla .com

That's $80 delivered to me, a few more than I'd need for a decade or
two. They look handy for frequent painters, though.

Yes, they do seem expensive for a box of 50 and that is how I buy them.
About a buck apiece and no shipping. They should be available individually
through a body shop or paint supplier as they are with my source. Handy
also
for storing unused paint for a week or two and swapping colors in the
middle
of a job.

Steve, how do you remove the cup without losing paint?!?

I put the plug in the vent, flip the gun upside down put the lid on the work
bench and unscrew the gun. The cups come with a plug for both the vent and
the bottom or gun end.

Handy!

--
The only way not to think about money is to have a great deal of it.
-- Edith Wharton

"William Noble" wrote in message
...
notes on lacquer

1. it is brittle and it shrinks as it dries - thick coats will crack - I
have to redo some of a car that has never been out of the garage for this
reason

Right. Not sanding *every* coat is a mistake. But the sanding goes very
quick.


2. it is not available in districts where VOC is an issue, such as much of
California

Time for a road trip...g


3. a trick with lacquer - sand to about 400 and get it flat, then spray a
thin coat of slow thinner - that will give you the shine and let you
quickly see if your job is any good - not like a buffed shine but plenty
good enough to look for little ripples and whatnot

I forgot about that one. A really good painter can even fix some mistakes
with a shot of thinner.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"William Noble" wrote in message
...

notes on lacquer

1. it is brittle and it shrinks as it dries - thick coats will crack - I
have to redo some of a car that has never been out of the garage for this
reason


Right. Not sanding *every* coat is a mistake. But the sanding goes very
quick.

I understand what you in the US call lacquer is what we in the UK call
cellulose. I have sprayed a number of cars in cellulose in solid colours
and metallics having taken advice from a semi-professional
bodywork/spray friend and while sanding each coat might be done on
primer coats, using contrast coats to highlight high/low areas, would
not be done on top coats unless a show car finish was required. All the
hard work being in the primer filler preparation finally ending up at
P600 IIRC (a bit finer than US 600 AFAIK), the topcoat application being
the easy bit. Multiple top coats being applied rapidly one after the
other as required and the paint then allowed to dry. This does assume
that you can spray the paint straight from the gun and get a high gloss
finish without runs which I have been able to do. Many shy away from
applying the paint that thick and suffer orange peal effect which
subsequently needs to be flatted and polished.

Regarding shrinkage I wonder how many coats that would take. I have
applied 10 coats of cellulose topcoat before and never had issues with
that cracking. The only time I have seen paint coats crack is when
preparation has been poor or incompatible paint system have been used.


2. it is not available in districts where VOC is an issue, such as much of
California


Time for a road trip...g


3. a trick with lacquer - sand to about 400 and get it flat, then spray a
thin coat of slow thinner - that will give you the shine and let you
quickly see if your job is any good - not like a buffed shine but plenty
good enough to look for little ripples and whatnot


I forgot about that one. A really good painter can even fix some mistakes
with a shot of thinner.

--
Ed Huntress

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"William Noble" wrote in message
...

notes on lacquer

1. it is brittle and it shrinks as it dries - thick coats will crack - I
have to redo some of a car that has never been out of the garage for
this reason


Right. Not sanding *every* coat is a mistake. But the sanding goes very
quick.

I understand what you in the US call lacquer is what we in the UK call
cellulose.

Yes -- based on my understanding from an ill-spent youth reading British car
books.

I have sprayed a number of cars in cellulose in solid colours and
metallics having taken advice from a semi-professional bodywork/spray
friend and while sanding each coat might be done on primer coats, using
contrast coats to highlight high/low areas, would not be done on top
coats unless a show car finish was required. All the hard work being in
the primer filler preparation finally ending up at P600 IIRC (a bit finer
than US 600 AFAIK), the topcoat application being the easy bit. Multiple
top coats being applied rapidly one after the other as required and the
paint then allowed to dry. This does assume that you can spray the paint
straight from the gun and get a high gloss finish without runs which I
have been able to do. Many shy away from applying the paint that thick and
suffer orange peal effect which subsequently needs to be flatted and
polished.

Right. But if you're good enough to get a good gloss from lacquer sprayed
one coat on top of the other, without sanding, you probably could spray
acrylic enamel and get a tougher finish in one coat, to begin with.


Regarding shrinkage I wonder how many coats that would take. I have
applied 10 coats of cellulose topcoat before and never had issues with
that cracking. The only time I have seen paint coats crack is when
preparation has been poor or incompatible paint system have been used.

I think the cracking is a result of spraying thick coats on top of each
other without allowing complete drying. My slow, thin-coat approach never
produced a crack that I know of.

It is possible that you're referring to nitrocellulose lacquer, which I
don't think has been used in the US for 50 years. We switched to acrylic
lacquer in the '50s. I do recall reading as a boy about a few show-car jobs
being done in "real" (nitrocellulose) lacquer, but the material that was
available to us, by the time I was old enough to paint a car (mid-'60s) was
acrylic lacquer.

Some of the things that have been brought up in this discussion, such as
spraying a coat of thinner and spaying multiple coats without sanding, are
things I'd forgotten about but which were over my head at the time, anyway.
An expert can do things that I wouldn't even attempt. The things I learned
about spraying cars, from a car restorer who was quite good, were for the
real tyro who wanted a great looking job without having much experience.
That was me. g Acrylic lacquer would still be my first choice for a job
done at home because it dries so fast that you can spray it outdoors (under
a tarpaulin, on a windless day, after wetting down the area with a garden
hose) and have only a minimum number of insects to sand out; it sands very
easily and quickly; you can work so fast with it that you can sand out a
screwed-up coat with no real hardship; and so on.

If I were to get serious about it I'd use two-part polyurethane today. But
that is very serious business indeed, between the toxicity, the breathing
equipment, and the good spraying equipment and expertise required.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"William Noble" wrote in message
...


notes on lacquer

1. it is brittle and it shrinks as it dries - thick coats will crack - I
have to redo some of a car that has never been out of the garage for
this reason


Right. Not sanding *every* coat is a mistake. But the sanding goes very
quick.


I understand what you in the US call lacquer is what we in the UK call
cellulose.


Yes -- based on my understanding from an ill-spent youth reading British car
books.


I have sprayed a number of cars in cellulose in solid colours and
metallics having taken advice from a semi-professional bodywork/spray
friend and while sanding each coat might be done on primer coats, using
contrast coats to highlight high/low areas, would not be done on top
coats unless a show car finish was required. All the hard work being in
the primer filler preparation finally ending up at P600 IIRC (a bit finer
than US 600 AFAIK), the topcoat application being the easy bit. Multiple
top coats being applied rapidly one after the other as required and the
paint then allowed to dry. This does assume that you can spray the paint
straight from the gun and get a high gloss finish without runs which I
have been able to do. Many shy away from applying the paint that thick and
suffer orange peal effect which subsequently needs to be flatted and
polished.


Right. But if you're good enough to get a good gloss from lacquer sprayed
one coat on top of the other, without sanding, you probably could spray
acrylic enamel and get a tougher finish in one coat, to begin with.


Problems with terminology, I have no idea what acrylic enamel is
although it does seem to be available in the UK. We have something
called one pack, or used to, which is like coach enamel. It didn't give
the finish of cellulose but was tough and very forgiving of poor prep,
but took a while to dry fully.

Regarding shrinkage I wonder how many coats that would take. I have
applied 10 coats of cellulose topcoat before and never had issues with
that cracking. The only time I have seen paint coats crack is when
preparation has been poor or incompatible paint system have been used.


I think the cracking is a result of spraying thick coats on top of each
other without allowing complete drying. My slow, thin-coat approach never
produced a crack that I know of.

Well I have sprayed cellulose many times coat on coat on the edge of
causing runs but not quite in order to get the finish and never had
cracking problems.
It is possible that you're referring to nitrocellulose lacquer, which I
don't think has been used in the US for 50 years. We switched to acrylic
lacquer in the '50s. I do recall reading as a boy about a few show-car jobs
being done in "real" (nitrocellulose) lacquer, but the material that was
available to us, by the time I was old enough to paint a car (mid-'60s) was
acrylic lacquer.

Terminology again maybe. I started spraying about 1985 and used
cellulose and I can still buy cellulose from certain car refinish places
although most are running down stocks as it was banned in the UK and
maybe Europe 18 months ago for car refinish use. I presume as it's
called cellulose it has a nitro cellulose base. I have some old tins of
paint, some maybe 40 years old, with titles like cellulose enamel,
synthetic enamel and a few other which all look, smell and behave like
what I know as cellulose, not very scientific I know, so the names are
rather confusing. The older ones seem to have the most potent solvent
when you get a wiff of it, one even tops the thinner used for
International 2k yacht paint my neighbour uses.

When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel
mentioned earlier.

Some of the things that have been brought up in this discussion, such as
spraying a coat of thinner and spaying multiple coats without sanding, are
things I'd forgotten about but which were over my head at the time, anyway.
An expert can do things that I wouldn't even attempt.
I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means but found that with a
bit of practice and playing with the gun set-up to get it right for me I
could put the paint on thick and get a great finish straight from the
gun and rarely get runs. One of the things I learned early on was that
the local mixing scheme cocked up the colour mixing occasionally so I
could buy that paint cheap so practicing wasn't expensive. I would do
some practice on some spare sheet metal or old panels removed from the
vehicle.

The things I learned
about spraying cars, from a car restorer who was quite good, were for the
real tyro who wanted a great looking job without having much experience.
That was me. g

Acrylic lacquer would still be my first choice for a job
done at home because it dries so fast that you can spray it outdoors (under
a tarpaulin, on a windless day, after wetting down the area with a garden
hose) and have only a minimum number of insects to sand out; it sands very
easily and quickly; you can work so fast with it that you can sand out a
screwed-up coat with no real hardship; and so on.


Description of the properties of acrylic enamel match my experience with
cellulose in the UK although I would leave it for a few days normally to
allow full solvent evaporation before flatting so the paint is fully
settled or near it.

If I were to get serious about it I'd use two-part polyurethane today. But
that is very serious business indeed, between the toxicity, the breathing
equipment, and the good spraying equipment and expertise required.

Yes I agree about 2k paints. I'm not that serious.
--
Ed Huntress

"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip

When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel mentioned
earlier.

Two peoples separated by a common language. d8-) I won't try to untangle
that one. If you have an old can of it, the ingredients list probably would
straighten it all out.

The material I'm calling enamel goes on much thicker than the lacquer, and
it can't be sanded out without sanding off the protective film of resin that
floats to the top. The really old enamels (before the mid-'50s or so)
contained drying oil rather than plastic resins, and they took a month or
more to dry completely. Acrylic lacquer could be waxed in a couple of days,
if you allowed it to dry well between coats. Acrylic enamel could be waxed
in about two weeks. I imagine it still can, because I think it's still
around, along with the acrylic lacquer.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip


When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel mentioned
earlier.


Two peoples separated by a common language. d8-) I won't try to untangle
that one. If you have an old can of it, the ingredients list probably would
straighten it all out.


While the new tins gives details of all the nasty solvents involved the
old ones just contain exactly what it says on the tin, ie paint , no
ingredients list per se .

The material I'm calling enamel goes on much thicker than the lacquer, and
it can't be sanded out without sanding off the protective film of resin that
floats to the top. The really old enamels (before the mid-'50s or so)
contained drying oil rather than plastic resins, and they took a month or
more to dry completely. Acrylic lacquer could be waxed in a couple of days,
if you allowed it to dry well between coats. Acrylic enamel could be waxed
in about two weeks. I imagine it still can, because I think it's still
around, along with the acrylic lacquer.

--
Ed Huntress



Need to find a paint expert for this one I guess. Your lacquer
description sounds like what I know of cellulose properties where the
paint dries by solvent evaporation, the enamel properties sound like
what is often called one pack, coach enamel and other names in the UK
and while has some solvent to flash off and firm the paint, the main
paint binder cures in the presence of oxygen IIRC hence the longer
hardening time compared to the purely solvent based lacquer.

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip


When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel
mentioned earlier.


Two peoples separated by a common language. d8-) I won't try to untangle
that one. If you have an old can of it, the ingredients list probably
would straighten it all out.


While the new tins gives details of all the nasty solvents involved the
old ones just contain exactly what it says on the tin, ie paint , no
ingredients list per se .

The material I'm calling enamel goes on much thicker than the lacquer,
and it can't be sanded out without sanding off the protective film of
resin that floats to the top. The really old enamels (before the mid-'50s
or so) contained drying oil rather than plastic resins, and they took a
month or more to dry completely. Acrylic lacquer could be waxed in a
couple of days, if you allowed it to dry well between coats. Acrylic
enamel could be waxed in about two weeks. I imagine it still can, because
I think it's still around, along with the acrylic lacquer.

--
Ed Huntress


Need to find a paint expert for this one I guess. Your lacquer description
sounds like what I know of cellulose properties where the paint dries by
solvent evaporation, the enamel properties sound like what is often
called one pack, coach enamel and other names in the UK and while has some
solvent to flash off and firm the paint, the main paint binder cures in
the presence of oxygen IIRC hence the longer hardening time compared to
the purely solvent based lacquer.

That's it. The confusion may come from the fact that the basic resin in car
lacquer was changed here in the 1950's from nitrocellulose to an acrylic
resin. The behavior of both is very similar, although old-time restorers and
show-car people have often said that you could get a higher gloss with the
nitrocellulose. I don't know that for a fact, only what others have said.

Enamel was also switched to an acrylic resin base here, a few years later
than lacquer. The drying mechanism still appears to be oxidation, as with
the older enamels. In any case, it behaves similarly to the old enamels but
it dries somewhat quicker. It's still much slower than either type of
lacquer.

There also are alkyd enamels but I won't go there, because now it's starting
to go over my head.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip



When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel
mentioned earlier.


Two peoples separated by a common language. d8-) I won't try to untangle
that one. If you have an old can of it, the ingredients list probably
would straighten it all out.


While the new tins gives details of all the nasty solvents involved the
old ones just contain exactly what it says on the tin, ie paint , no
ingredients list per se .


The material I'm calling enamel goes on much thicker than the lacquer,
and it can't be sanded out without sanding off the protective film of
resin that floats to the top. The really old enamels (before the mid-'50s
or so) contained drying oil rather than plastic resins, and they took a
month or more to dry completely. Acrylic lacquer could be waxed in a
couple of days, if you allowed it to dry well between coats. Acrylic
enamel could be waxed in about two weeks. I imagine it still can, because
I think it's still around, along with the acrylic lacquer.

--
Ed Huntress



Need to find a paint expert for this one I guess. Your lacquer description
sounds like what I know of cellulose properties where the paint dries by
solvent evaporation, the enamel properties sound like what is often
called one pack, coach enamel and other names in the UK and while has some
solvent to flash off and firm the paint, the main paint binder cures in
the presence of oxygen IIRC hence the longer hardening time compared to
the purely solvent based lacquer.


That's it. The confusion may come from the fact that the basic resin in car
lacquer was changed here in the 1950's from nitrocellulose to an acrylic
resin. The behavior of both is very similar, although old-time restorers and
show-car people have often said that you could get a higher gloss with the
nitrocellulose. I don't know that for a fact, only what others have said.

Enamel was also switched to an acrylic resin base here, a few years later
than lacquer. The drying mechanism still appears to be oxidation, as with
the older enamels. In any case, it behaves similarly to the old enamels but
it dries somewhat quicker. It's still much slower than either type of
lacquer.


I would expect as the paint industry seems to be somewhat International,
pardon the pun, these days that if it happened in the US, it happened
here also at some point but the colloquial term "cellulose" was
maintained generically for a paint with the same basic characteristics
but may explain terms such as "synthetic" on the tins. I started using
International brand cellulose then the supplier switched to PPG ,
Pennsylvania Painted Glass IIRC. Most likely the same with enamel. A
recent look at the PPG UK site still lists cellulose paint for
industrial applications which is still allowed as far as I know.

There also are alkyd enamels but I won't go there, because now it's starting
to go over my head.


Heard of them but thats about it. I'll stick to the true enamel as I
understand it, ground glass fused to copper or silver substrate so that
gets us back to metal working. Must try enameling on some of my spun
copper shells, maybe even some cloisonne work.

--
Ed Huntress

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip



When you say acrylic lacquer is that the same as acrylic enamel
mentioned earlier.


Two peoples separated by a common language. d8-) I won't try to
untangle that one. If you have an old can of it, the ingredients list
probably would straighten it all out.


While the new tins gives details of all the nasty solvents involved the
old ones just contain exactly what it says on the tin, ie paint , no
ingredients list per se .


The material I'm calling enamel goes on much thicker than the lacquer,
and it can't be sanded out without sanding off the protective film of
resin that floats to the top. The really old enamels (before the
mid-'50s or so) contained drying oil rather than plastic resins, and
they took a month or more to dry completely. Acrylic lacquer could be
waxed in a couple of days, if you allowed it to dry well between coats.
Acrylic enamel could be waxed in about two weeks. I imagine it still
can, because I think it's still around, along with the acrylic lacquer.

--
Ed Huntress



Need to find a paint expert for this one I guess. Your lacquer
description sounds like what I know of cellulose properties where the
paint dries by solvent evaporation, the enamel properties sound like
what is often called one pack, coach enamel and other names in the UK
and while has some solvent to flash off and firm the paint, the main
paint binder cures in the presence of oxygen IIRC hence the longer
hardening time compared to the purely solvent based lacquer.


That's it. The confusion may come from the fact that the basic resin in
car lacquer was changed here in the 1950's from nitrocellulose to an
acrylic resin. The behavior of both is very similar, although old-time
restorers and show-car people have often said that you could get a higher
gloss with the nitrocellulose. I don't know that for a fact, only what
others have said.

Enamel was also switched to an acrylic resin base here, a few years later
than lacquer. The drying mechanism still appears to be oxidation, as with
the older enamels. In any case, it behaves similarly to the old enamels
but it dries somewhat quicker. It's still much slower than either type of
lacquer.


I would expect as the paint industry seems to be somewhat International,
pardon the pun, these days that if it happened in the US, it happened here
also at some point but the colloquial term "cellulose" was maintained
generically for a paint with the same basic characteristics but may
explain terms such as "synthetic" on the tins. I started using
International brand cellulose then the supplier switched to PPG ,
Pennsylvania Painted Glass IIRC. Most likely the same with enamel. A
recent look at the PPG UK site still lists cellulose paint for industrial
applications which is still allowed as far as I know.

That's Pittsburgh Plate Glass. g Or it was. I think they just use the
"PPG" now. They're still a big producer of automotive paints.

The first time I saw the terms "cellulose" and "cellulosing" applied to
automotive paint was in a book titled _Sports Car Bodywork_, published in
the UK sometime in the early or mid-'60s (I still have the book). Then I saw
the term again in some British car magazines. So I suspect that PPG used the
term for your market, as it's not a familiar one in the US. That's not to
say it isn't used, but it's not the common term.


There also are alkyd enamels but I won't go there, because now it's
starting to go over my head.


Heard of them but thats about it. I'll stick to the true enamel as I
understand it, ground glass fused to copper or silver substrate so that
gets us back to metal working. Must try enameling on some of my spun
copper shells, maybe even some cloisonne work.

Do you have any photos to post?

--
Ed Huntress

{...}
That's Pittsburgh Plate Glass. g Or it was. I think they just use the
"PPG" now. They're still a big producer of automotive paints.

The first time I saw the terms "cellulose" and "cellulosing" applied to
automotive paint was in a book titled _Sports Car Bodywork_, published in
the UK sometime in the early or mid-'60s (I still have the book). Then I saw
the term again in some British car magazines. So I suspect that PPG used the
term for your market, as it's not a familiar one in the US. That's not to
say it isn't used, but it's not the common term.


There also are alkyd enamels but I won't go there, because now it's
starting to go over my head.


Heard of them but thats about it. I'll stick to the true enamel as I
understand it, ground glass fused to copper or silver substrate so that
gets us back to metal working. Must try enameling on some of my spun
copper shells, maybe even some cloisonne work.


Do you have any photos to post?

Well the shell I had in mind is this
http://www.metal-arts.co.uk/~djb/coppershell.jpg although I think I
would spin a bead at the top edge, bottom edge in photo. The shell is
currently used to slump glass over so it takes the shape of the shell. A
guy I now told me about some amazing work he saw with enamel and
cloisonne on the outside where once done, the copper was etched away
leaving just the enamel and cloisonne. Got the enamel just need the time
to play amongst other projects and work.

--
Ed Huntress

"David Billington" wrote in message
...

snip

Heard of them but thats about it. I'll stick to the true enamel as I
understand it, ground glass fused to copper or silver substrate so that
gets us back to metal working. Must try enameling on some of my spun
copper shells, maybe even some cloisonne work.


Do you have any photos to post?

Well the shell I had in mind is this
http://www.metal-arts.co.uk/~djb/coppershell.jpg although I think I would
spin a bead at the top edge, bottom edge in photo. The shell is currently
used to slump glass over so it takes the shape of the shell. A guy I now
told me about some amazing work he saw with enamel and cloisonne on the
outside where once done, the copper was etched away leaving just the
enamel and cloisonne. Got the enamel just need the time to play amongst
other projects and work.

It certainly sounds interesting. My only exposure to doing that kind of
enameling was in a high-school shop class. If you get to it and finish the
job, post a photo, OK?

--
Ed Huntress

here are some definitions

Enamel - a paint that cures by polymerizing
Lacquer - a paint that cures by solvent evaporation - originally from the
Lacq (?) beetle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer
In a general sense, lacquer is a clear or colored varnish, that dries by
solvent evaporation and often a curing process as well that produces a hard,
durable finish, in any sheen level from ultra matte to high gloss and that
can be further polished as required.

The term lacquer originates from the portuguese word for lac, a type of
resin excreted from certain insects[1]. Regardless, in modern usage,
lac-based varnishes are refered to as shellac, while lacquer refers to other
polymers dissolved in Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs), such as
nitrocellulose and later acrylic compounds dissolved in a solvent generally
referred to as lacquer thinner.[2]

While both lacquer and shellac are traditional finishes, lacquer is more
durable than shellac.



Nitrocellulose lacquers

Quick-drying solvent-based lacquers that contain nitrocellulose, a resin
obtained from the nitration of cotton and other cellulostic materials, were
developed in the early 1920s, and extensively used in the automobile
industry for 30 years. Prior to their introduction, mass produced automotive
finishes were limited in colour, with Japan Black being the fastest drying
and thus most popular. General Motors Oakland automobile brand automobile
was the first (1923) to introduce one of the new fast drying nitrocelluous
lacquers, a bright blue, produced by DuPont under their Duco tradename.

Acrylic lacquers
Lacquers using acrylic resin, a synthetic polymer, were developed in the
1950s. Acrylic resin is colourless, transparent thermoplastic, obtained by
the polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acid. Acrylic is also used in
enamels, which have the advantage of not needing to be buffed to obtain a
shine. Enamels, however, are slow drying. The advantage of acrylic lacquers,
which was recognized by General Motors, is an exceptionally fast drying
time. The use of lacquers in automobile finishes was discontinued when
tougher, more durable, weather and chemical resistant two-component
polyurethane coatings were developed. The system usually consists of a
primer, colour coat and clear topcoat, commonly known as clear coat
finishes. It is extensively used for wooden finishing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enamel_paint

An enamel paint is a paint that supposedly dries to an extremely hard,
usually glossy, finish. In reality, most commercially-available enamel
paints are significantly softer than either vitreous enamel or stoved
synthetic resins.

With respect to paints enamel is a fanciful term, implying that an ordinary
latex or oil-based paint has the same properties as true, fired vitreous
enamel.

Some enamel paints have been made by adding varnish to oil-based paint.

The term sometimes refers to oil-modified polyesters that were introduced in
the early 1930s. The oil is required to stop or enhance the crosslinking of
the paint in order to achieve sufficient flexibility of the paint film.

Typically the term "enamel paint" is used to describe oil-based covering
products, usually with a significant amount of gloss in them, however
recently many latex or water-based paints have adopted the term as well. The
term today means "hard surfaced paint" and usually is in reference to paint
brands of higher quality, floor coatings of a high gloss finish, or spray
paints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

A polyurethane, commonly abbreviated PU, is any polymer consisting of a
chain of organic units joined by urethane links. Polyurethane polymers are
formed by reacting a monomer containing at least two isocyanate functional
groups with another monomer containing at least two alcohol groups in the
presence of a catalyst.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Jun 15, 9:06*pm, Ignoramus25555 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25555.invalid wrote:
After today's compressor painting session, I am very interested in
buying a good "HVLP gun". I have seen some videos on Youtube of these
guns in operation and I was impressed. They leave nice swaths of
quality paint and do not make much overspray.

So I basically have two questions.

1. Can anyone recommend a good HVLP sprayer, I do not mind paying a
premium price for something that works very well and for which parts
are available.

2. What kinds of paints can be sprayed from said HVLP sprayers.

There's actually two sorts of systems called "HVLP", one type uses a
dedicated turbine blower and a very large air hose, this is the "true"
HVLP. The other types have been retailed as "conversion" guns, they
hook up to shop air. The turbine systems are very nice, I've played
with them at woodworking shows, very much used in cabinet and
furniture finishing. They have virtually NO overspray and can handle
heavier water-based finishes like polyurethane. The air hose is about
the size of small vacuum cleaner hose, the system runs at very low
pressures compared with the conversion guns. They used to start in at
about a grand, price has come down over the years and HF has one for a
few hundred now. You can lay down stripes of finish almost like they
were masked.

The conversion guns have a lot more overspray by comparison, I've got
a couple I've used for car painting and wood finishing. HF sells
various cap and needle combinations for various materials, a viscosity
cup is a must to get best results. The set that comes with the
cheapies is usually only suited for really thin finishes, I use it for
thinned shellac on woodworking projects. It'll also handle two-part
urethane, which is about the only thing you can get anymore for auto
finishing around here, lacquer and other solvent systems are dead,
dead, dead. Too many VOCs, air pollution greenies are down on them.
Price range is a lot greater here, a 50% off coupon at HF brings one
down to almost pocket change when they're on sale. Make sure your
compressor is up to the challenge, the typical 115v airless isn't
going to cut it for any projects much bigger than a couple of feet
square.

Stan

"William Noble" wrote in message
...

here are some definitions

Enamel - a paint that cures by polymerizing
Lacquer - a paint that cures by solvent evaporation - originally from the
Lacq (?) beetle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer
In a general sense, lacquer is a clear or colored varnish, that dries by
solvent evaporation and often a curing process as well that produces a
hard, durable finish, in any sheen level from ultra matte to high gloss
and that can be further polished as required.

The term lacquer originates from the portuguese word for lac, a type of
resin excreted from certain insects[1]. Regardless, in modern usage,
lac-based varnishes are refered to as shellac, while lacquer refers to
other polymers dissolved in Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs), such as
nitrocellulose and later acrylic compounds dissolved in a solvent
generally referred to as lacquer thinner.[2]

While both lacquer and shellac are traditional finishes, lacquer is more
durable than shellac.



Nitrocellulose lacquers

Quick-drying solvent-based lacquers that contain nitrocellulose, a resin
obtained from the nitration of cotton and other cellulostic materials,
were developed in the early 1920s, and extensively used in the automobile
industry for 30 years. Prior to their introduction, mass produced
automotive finishes were limited in colour, with Japan Black being the
fastest drying and thus most popular. General Motors Oakland automobile
brand automobile was the first (1923) to introduce one of the new fast
drying nitrocelluous lacquers, a bright blue, produced by DuPont under
their Duco tradename.

Acrylic lacquers
Lacquers using acrylic resin, a synthetic polymer, were developed in the
1950s. Acrylic resin is colourless, transparent thermoplastic, obtained by
the polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acid. Acrylic is also used in
enamels, which have the advantage of not needing to be buffed to obtain a
shine. Enamels, however, are slow drying. The advantage of acrylic
lacquers, which was recognized by General Motors, is an exceptionally fast
drying time. The use of lacquers in automobile finishes was discontinued
when tougher, more durable, weather and chemical resistant two-component
polyurethane coatings were developed. The system usually consists of a
primer, colour coat and clear topcoat, commonly known as clear coat
finishes. It is extensively used for wooden finishing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enamel_paint

An enamel paint is a paint that supposedly dries to an extremely hard,
usually glossy, finish. In reality, most commercially-available enamel
paints are significantly softer than either vitreous enamel or stoved
synthetic resins.

With respect to paints enamel is a fanciful term, implying that an
ordinary latex or oil-based paint has the same properties as true, fired
vitreous enamel.

Some enamel paints have been made by adding varnish to oil-based paint.

The term sometimes refers to oil-modified polyesters that were introduced
in the early 1930s. The oil is required to stop or enhance the
crosslinking of the paint in order to achieve sufficient flexibility of
the paint film.

Typically the term "enamel paint" is used to describe oil-based covering
products, usually with a significant amount of gloss in them, however
recently many latex or water-based paints have adopted the term as well.
The term today means "hard surfaced paint" and usually is in reference to
paint brands of higher quality, floor coatings of a high gloss finish, or
spray paints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

A polyurethane, commonly abbreviated PU, is any polymer consisting of a
chain of organic units joined by urethane links. Polyurethane polymers are
formed by reacting a monomer containing at least two isocyanate functional
groups with another monomer containing at least two alcohol groups in the
presence of a catalyst.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Thanks, William.

--
Ed Huntress