I've been doing my research and have provisionally settled on this item.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/acce...r-sf.shtml#con

30K btu input $769 81% out

Along with this to vent it.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/acce...ies.shtml#pipe
4" RF Garage/Shop Vent Kit $169

I don't want to pierce the roof since I live in snow country.

Has anyone dealt with this company or used a Sterling Furnace?

All constructive comments welcome. Damn, I'm paying 2 bucks a gallon for
propane. What is the price in your area?

Thanks,

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:01:31 -0400, Wes wrote:

Damn, I'm paying 2 bucks a gallon for
propane. What is the price in your area?

Just got propane and oil last week. $3.30 for gas & $3.69 for oil.
Near Albany, NY. [Funny how in 1995 gas was $1.40 & oil was $1.04-
over time, citing all the same reasons for price increases, the price
of oil has surpassed that of LP.]

Jim

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:01:31 -0400, Wes wrote:


All constructive comments welcome. Damn, I'm paying 2 bucks a gallon for
propane. What is the price in your area?

$3.18, California.

Which makes filling the (4) 10 gallon forklift tanks a bit pricey.
Not counting the bbq bottles

Gunner

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:01:31 -0400, Wes wrote:



All constructive comments welcome. Damn, I'm paying 2 bucks a gallon for
propane. What is the price in your area?

Thanks,

Wes

2 bucks a liter :-(



Mark Rand
RTFM

I've been looking at a similar unit only at 75 K btu. Fuel prices got so
high that I wrote off doing much in the garage in the winter.

Price seems high. Normal price around here for similar units (don't
recall the brand) is slightly around US$460 for the 45k btu version,
US$530 for the 75kbtu version.

I priced out the components for a sidewall vent, seems to me it ran a
bit over US $100

Wes wrote:
I've been doing my research and have provisionally settled on this item.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/acce...r-sf.shtml#con

30K btu input $769 81% out

Along with this to vent it.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/acce...ies.shtml#pipe
4" RF Garage/Shop Vent Kit $169

I don't want to pierce the roof since I live in snow country.

Has anyone dealt with this company or used a Sterling Furnace?

All constructive comments welcome. Damn, I'm paying 2 bucks a gallon for
propane. What is the price in your area?

Thanks,

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

RoyJ wrote:

I've been looking at a similar unit only at 75 K btu. Fuel prices got so
high that I wrote off doing much in the garage in the winter.

Price seems high. Normal price around here for similar units (don't
recall the brand) is slightly around US$460 for the 45k btu version,
US$530 for the 75kbtu version.

I priced out the components for a sidewall vent, seems to me it ran a
bit over US $100

Mr. Heater Maxx units, can be found at http://www.northerntool.com and
others in that price range.

Mark Rand wrote:

2 bucks a liter :-(

But your health care is free

RoyJ wrote:

Price seems high. Normal price around here for similar units (don't
recall the brand) is slightly around US$460 for the 45k btu version,
US$530 for the 75kbtu version.

The sealed combustion chamber cranks up the price a bit.

Wes

Wes wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

Price seems high. Normal price around here for similar units (don't
recall the brand) is slightly around US$460 for the 45k btu version,
US$530 for the 75kbtu version.

The sealed combustion chamber cranks up the price a bit.

Sealed, or just properly vented? Certainly the unvented POS heaters that
will rust all your tools are cheaper, but so is the Mr. Heater Maxx
series of garage heaters mentioned that are proper vented heaters.

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:10:49 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
quickly quoth:

Mark Rand wrote:

2 bucks a liter :-(

But your health care is free

So is the full amount of protection allowed them, by unarmed Bobbies,
who may yell "STOP, or I'll yell STOP again!" Ayup, I'd much rather
live here in the heart of "Bullets Whizzin'" USA.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:31:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:10:49 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
quickly quoth:

Mark Rand wrote:

2 bucks a liter :-(

But your health care is free

So is the full amount of protection allowed them, by unarmed Bobbies,
who may yell "STOP, or I'll yell STOP again!" Ayup, I'd much rather
live here in the heart of "Bullets Whizzin'" USA.


The LOE's I saw in London last visit appeared to be slingin
MP5's. Not sure if they were bobbies but they were very visable,
and looked most capable.
ED

Electricity = $0.055 per kwh = $16 per million BTU

Propane = $3.69 per gallon = $49 per million BTU

Got this here http://www.travisproducts.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp#

This is in Central Oregon where electricity is cheap (for now) and dino fuel
is expensive. Diesel is past $4.00 and propane isn't far behind.
Nice thing about electricity is the lack of required venting.
My .02, YMMV
42


"Pete C." wrote in message
...

Wes wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

Price seems high. Normal price around here for similar units (don't
recall the brand) is slightly around US$460 for the 45k btu version,
US$530 for the 75kbtu version.

The sealed combustion chamber cranks up the price a bit.

Sealed, or just properly vented? Certainly the unvented POS heaters that
will rust all your tools are cheaper, but so is the Mr. Heater Maxx
series of garage heaters mentioned that are proper vented heaters.

"42" wrote:

Electricity = $0.055 per kwh = $16 per million BTU

Propane = $3.69 per gallon = $49 per million BTU

Got this here http://www.travisproducts.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp#

This is in Central Oregon where electricity is cheap (for now) and dino fuel
is expensive. Diesel is past $4.00 and propane isn't far behind.
Nice thing about electricity is the lack of required venting.
My .02, YMMV
42



$0.10764 per KWH here. $31.54 MBTU
last contract for propane was $2.00 a gallon. $26.64 MBTU

I think I'll hold off on deciding what form of heat I'm using until July
when the next propane contract is set.

Thanks for the info, electric heat used to be very expensive relative to gas
in my area. Times have changed.

Wes

42 wrote:

Electricity = $0.055 per kwh = $16 per million BTU

Propane = $3.69 per gallon = $49 per million BTU

Got this here http://www.travisproducts.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp#

This is in Central Oregon where electricity is cheap (for now) and dino fuel
is expensive. Diesel is past $4.00 and propane isn't far behind.
Nice thing about electricity is the lack of required venting.
My .02, YMMV
42

Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.

"Pete C." wrote:

Sealed, or just properly vented? Certainly the unvented POS heaters that
will rust all your tools are cheaper, but so is the Mr. Heater Maxx
series of garage heaters mentioned that are proper vented heaters.

Both sealed combustion where air being burned comes from outside and vented.
I'm glad I haven't ordered it since 42's post showed the economics have
changed a lot.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Pete C." wrote:

-snip-
Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.

That sure is a bargain! Here in upstate NY- old Niagara Mohawk
country- I'm paying .15320 -- though the actual cost per kWh is
listed as .10128.

That poster said he was in Oregon- is that mostly hydro, or nuclear?

Jim

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

-snip-
Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.

That sure is a bargain! Here in upstate NY- old Niagara Mohawk
country- I'm paying .15320 -- though the actual cost per kWh is
listed as .10128.

That poster said he was in Oregon- is that mostly hydro, or nuclear?

Jim

Current is $0.1167 /kWh delivered here in TX as of the current bill.
Conveniently enough TXU includes a legitimate "average price per kWh" on
the bill which accounts for all the costs beyond generation, it's the
bill amount divided by the kWh used, so no hidden costs.

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:09:01 -0400, Wes
wrote:

"42" wrote:

Electricity = $0.055 per kwh = $16 per million BTU

Propane = $3.69 per gallon = $49 per million BTU

Got this here http://www.travisproducts.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp#

This is in Central Oregon where electricity is cheap (for now) and dino fuel
is expensive. Diesel is past $4.00 and propane isn't far behind.
Nice thing about electricity is the lack of required venting.
My .02, YMMV
42



$0.10764 per KWH here. $31.54 MBTU
last contract for propane was $2.00 a gallon. $26.64 MBTU

I think I'll hold off on deciding what form of heat I'm using until July
when the next propane contract is set.

Thanks for the info, electric heat used to be very expensive relative to gas
in my area. Times have changed.

Wes

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

Date Heating Oil Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 $3.81 $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 $3.79 $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 $3.65 $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/


--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

Date Heating Oil Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 $3.81 $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 $3.79 $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 $3.65 $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/


No, I have not. Thanks. If our governor really wanted to jump start the
economy she would go balls to the wall on nuclear power generation. Combine
cheap power with lots of water and brownfields to renovate for manufacturing
and we could get out of our current situation.

Wes

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

42 wrote:

Electricity = $0.055 per kwh = $16 per million BTU

Propane = $3.69 per gallon = $49 per million BTU

Got this here http://www.travisproducts.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp#

This is in Central Oregon where electricity is cheap (for now) and dino
fuel
is expensive. Diesel is past $4.00 and propane isn't far behind.
Nice thing about electricity is the lack of required venting.
My .02, YMMV
42

Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.

Yup. Total Please pay amount divided by kwh used is 5 and a half cents. A
lot of hydro around here and the local electric company is a co-op.
We switched from propane to electric for the house and the cost of heat
dropped from $200 per month to $70. But on the other hand it now costs $100
to fill the truck up (diesel).
42

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:09:01 -0400, Wes wrote:

I think I'll hold off on deciding what form of heat I'm using until July
when the next propane contract is set.

Thanks for the info, electric heat used to be very expensive relative to gas
in my area. Times have changed.

A BIG factor in electricity is the cost of fuel, and whether it's a
'for-profit' utility that's trying to maximize return.

If your region is getting the bulk of their power from Hydroelectric
(no fuel costs at all, they just have to pay off the note for building
that big dam and buying all the land they flooded behind it) or the
like, and your local power utility is a Co-Op that isn't out to gouge
everyone, electricity could meet or beat fossil fuels.

But it's 'Man Bites Dog' rare. And the situation could change
drastically from year to year.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:21:34 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Leon Fisk wrote:

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

Date Heating Oil Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 $3.81 $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 $3.79 $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 $3.65 $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/


No, I have not. Thanks. If our governor really wanted to jump start the
economy she would go balls to the wall on nuclear power generation. Combine
cheap power with lots of water and brownfields to renovate for manufacturing
and we could get out of our current situation.

Wes

They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:47:08 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:


They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

I don't see why. Cites, please?

They're recycling all their old fuel and they're not nearly as
paranoid about super-low-level wastes as we are.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

Leon Fisk wrote:

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:21:34 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Leon Fisk wrote:

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

Date Heating Oil Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 $3.81 $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 $3.79 $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 $3.65 $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/


No, I have not. Thanks. If our governor really wanted to jump start the
economy she would go balls to the wall on nuclear power generation. Combine
cheap power with lots of water and brownfields to renovate for manufacturing
and we could get out of our current situation.

Wes

They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

We've long since figured out how to reprocess the waste to reuse it, and
how to dispose of the waste safe and secure. The one thing we haven't
figured out is how to keep the ignorant, irrational and paranoid anti
nuke minority from abusing our legal system to waste taxpayers money and
time with frivolous lawsuits.

"Pete C." wrote:

We've long since figured out how to reprocess the waste to reuse it, and
how to dispose of the waste safe and secure. The one thing we haven't
figured out is how to keep the ignorant, irrational and paranoid anti
nuke minority from abusing our legal system to waste taxpayers money and
time with frivolous lawsuits.


It's very simple. While they are at the courthouse you bury it all
in their back yards.


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:13:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:47:08 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:


They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

I don't see why. Cites, please?

They're recycling all their old fuel and they're not nearly as
paranoid about super-low-level wastes as we are.


For most of the activity, a hundred years or so is reasonable, What's left
after that is not much more of a problem than living on top of granite. Anyone
know what the minimum safe storage time for the so-called carbon-capture CO2
repositories that are the coming fad are?

Why the h$ll aren't we working on fusion research as if it were the only
future for mankind?

May be a token Kumbaya is permitted here ;-)

"Wes" wrote in message
...
I've been doing my research and have provisionally settled on this item.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/acce...r-sf.shtml#con



Why the sealed combustion? Keep in mind the "sealed" combustion with these
units is not a tightly sealed unit, it will nor protect you from paint or
solvent fumes in the air from reaching the burner. More just to get most of
the combustion air from outside. Way over rated IMO.

This would be a better unit, and cheaper too. I have never been impressed
with the Sterling brand heaters.

http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/heaters.shtml

Greg

"Pete C." wrote in message
...


Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.


We get straight electric residential rates at ~$0.07 a KWH. We can get "off
peak" electric heating rates rates ~$0.03 per KWH. The off peak rates
require you to have a backup heating source, gas or oil.
Welcome to the big city!!
Greg

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:13:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:47:08 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:


They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

I don't see why. Cites, please?

They're recycling all their old fuel and they're not nearly as
paranoid about super-low-level wastes as we are.

Articles are numerous and easy to find via google. What you
have to do though is read between the lines and consider the
source. Some sources are obviously too rosy and some are
much too gloomy. That being said here are a few:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gs/french.html

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...e-leaking-into

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31466

If you want to know more about why nuclear power is a bad
idea read some of the articles put out by RMI (Rocky
Mountain Institute). They have no real axe to grind and
would be promoting it if it was a good way to go.

A quick synopsis is he

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid185.php

Nuclear waste is mentioned, but they would rather stress the
fact that it is just too expensive. Most people can
understand dollars and cents...

Punch in "nuclear" at the top of the page in the search box
and read some of the top articles that come up that they
published in years past. They seem a bit dated, but there
hasn't been any reason yet to make changes. The reasons that
they give are still valid today.

RMI was behind the creation of today's Hybrid vehicles, LEED
building certification...

I used to get their newsletter when I could still afford to
donate a few $ to their cause. Their articles were always
well researched and thought provoking. The newsletter and
old articles are freely available online if you care to read
through them.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:15:20 GMT, "Greg O"
wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...


Electricity $0.055 / kWh? Is that the actual cost per kWh, or are you
only looking at the generation charge and missing the distribution
charge? Most of the US is paying $0.100 or more per delivered kWh.


We get straight electric residential rates at ~$0.07 a KWH. We can get "off
peak" electric heating rates rates ~$0.03 per KWH. The off peak rates
require you to have a backup heating source, gas or oil.
Welcome to the big city!!
Greg
My latest bill $0.1109/KWH
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:50:36 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:13:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:47:08 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:
France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

I don't see why. Cites, please?

Articles are numerous and easy to find via google. What you
have to do though is read between the lines and consider the
source.

Hah! That's a good one. I guess, then, that you can believe everything
on the internet if you but read between the lines and consider the
source?


Some sources are obviously too rosy and some are
much too gloomy. That being said here are a few:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gs/french.html

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...e-leaking-into

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31466

If you want to know more about why nuclear power is a bad
idea read some of the articles put out by RMI (Rocky
Mountain Institute). They have no real axe to grind and
would be promoting it if it was a good way to go.

Our government needs to develop an expedited program for nuke power.
It's their antiquated system which creates the ungodly costs and
delays as far as I've read in the past 40ish years. Coal power is just
too bloody ugly for words.


A quick synopsis is he

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid185.php

They also said, on their climate page "There is now overwhelming
evidence that human activities are changing the world's climate.
Indeed, there is reason to fear that the environmental and societal
impacts of climate change are coming faster and more furiously than
previously thought."

Consider -your- sources, Leon.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:43:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
They also said, on their climate page "There is now overwhelming
evidence that human activities are changing the world's climate.
Indeed, there is reason to fear that the environmental and societal
impacts of climate change are coming faster and more furiously than
previously thought."

Consider -your- sources, Leon.

Oh, I consider my sources quite well. Normally tossing out
those that claim something is either white or black and
settling for some shade of gray.

We will soon find out whether Global Warming is but a scam
or not. No one is really going to do anything to change our
course, there will just be a lot of hand wringing, talk and
some small scale attempts. It is after all Human nature...

As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote in
:

snip
As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."


Probably something like, 'Damn, I sure hope this floats'.


Bill

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:16:59 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."


Ive always wondered about the first guy to eat an oyster.....

Was it on a bet with the other guys?

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:16:59 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:43:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
They also said, on their climate page "There is now overwhelming
evidence that human activities are changing the world's climate.
Indeed, there is reason to fear that the environmental and societal
impacts of climate change are coming faster and more furiously than
previously thought."

Consider -your- sources, Leon.

Oh, I consider my sources quite well. Normally tossing out
those that claim something is either white or black and
settling for some shade of gray.

(Keep whittlin'.)


We will soon find out whether Global Warming is but a scam
or not.

Many of us already _have_, Leon.


No one is really going to do anything to change our
course, there will just be a lot of hand wringing, talk and
some small scale attempts. It is after all Human nature...

Such as the totally ineffectual Kyoto Protocol?


As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."

Scary thought. BUT, did you know that there is more forested land in
the USA today than there was 100 years ago? (there are more cities but
many fewer farms, so much of the land has been reforested.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

On Mar 29, 11:47*am, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:21:34 -0400, Wes
wrote:





Leon Fisk wrote:

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

* * * *Date * *Heating Oil * * Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 * $3.81 * * * * * $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 * $3.79 * * * * * $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 * $3.65 * * * * * $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/

No, I have not. *Thanks. *If our governor really wanted to jump start the
economy she would go balls to the wall on nuclear power generation. Combine
cheap power with lots of water and brownfields to renovate for manufacturing
and we could get out of our current situation.

Wes

They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids *MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Try 5 days in the future considering the banks falling like flies...

Yes...nuclear waste is what nuclear advocates forget about when
bragging about the cheapness of the power.

Factor in the real cost of waste handling and nuke power ends up being
the most costly.

TMT

On Mar 29, 5:48*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Leon Fisk wrote:

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:21:34 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Leon Fisk wrote:

Have you seen this site?

http://www.cis.state.mi.us/mpsc/reports/shopp/

The average residential prices for the week of:

* * *Date * *Heating Oil * * Propane
Mar. 24, 2008 $3.81 * * * * * $2.41
Mar. 17, 2008 $3.79 * * * * * $2.43
Mar. 10, 2008 $3.65 * * * * * $2.44...

As long as your State of Michigan tax dollars are paying for
it you should take a peek at it now and then.

For current futures pricing look he

http://www.oilnergy.com/1propane.htm

or here to look at oil, gas...

http://www.oilnergy.com/

No, I have not. *Thanks. *If our governor really wanted to jump start the
economy she would go balls to the wall on nuclear power generation. Combine
cheap power with lots of water and brownfields to renovate for manufacturing
and we could get out of our current situation.

Wes

They still haven't figured out what to do with the toxic
waste. How do you budget for keeping something safe and
secure for say 25,000 years? Hell nobody can predict even 5
years into the future at this moment in time...

France is held up as the gold standard for nuclear power.
They are now wallowing around in the waste and can't figure
out what to do with either.

We've long since figured out how to reprocess the waste to reuse it, and
how to dispose of the waste safe and secure. The one thing we haven't
figured out is how to keep the ignorant, irrational and paranoid anti
nuke minority from abusing our legal system to waste taxpayers money and
time with frivolous lawsuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mind if we dump it in your front yard?

TMT

On Mar 31, 8:18*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:16:59 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:43:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
They also said, on their climate page "There is now overwhelming
evidence that human activities are changing the world's climate.
Indeed, there is reason to fear that the environmental and societal
impacts of climate change are coming faster and more furiously than
previously thought."

Consider -your- sources, Leon.

Oh, I consider my sources quite well. Normally tossing out
those that claim something is either white or black and
settling for some shade of gray.

(Keep whittlin'.)

We will soon find out whether Global Warming is but a scam
or not.

Many of us already _have_, Leon.

No one is really going to do anything to change our
course, there will just be a lot of hand wringing, talk and
some small scale attempts. It is after all Human nature...

Such as the totally ineffectual Kyoto Protocol?

As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."

Scary thought. BUT, did you know that there is more forested land in
the USA today than there was 100 years ago? (there are more cities but
many fewer farms, so much of the land has been reforested.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --Jesse Lee Bennett

Could you provide a cite for that claim...I would like to read it.

In the past many states were totally forested...not the case today.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 31, 8:18 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:16:59 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Leon
Fisk quickly quoth:

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:43:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
snip
They also said, on their climate page "There is now overwhelming
evidence that human activities are changing the world's climate.
Indeed, there is reason to fear that the environmental and societal
impacts of climate change are coming faster and more furiously than
previously thought."

Consider -your- sources, Leon.

Oh, I consider my sources quite well. Normally tossing out
those that claim something is either white or black and
settling for some shade of gray.

(Keep whittlin'.)

We will soon find out whether Global Warming is but a scam
or not.

Many of us already _have_, Leon.

No one is really going to do anything to change our
course, there will just be a lot of hand wringing, talk and
some small scale attempts. It is after all Human nature...

Such as the totally ineffectual Kyoto Protocol?

As another poster posits in a different group I read, "I'm
still wondering what the guy was thinking, as he cut down
the last tree on Easter Island."

Scary thought. BUT, did you know that there is more forested land in
the USA today than there was 100 years ago? (there are more cities but
many fewer farms, so much of the land has been reforested.

--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett

Could you provide a cite for that claim...I would like to read it.

In the past many states were totally forested...not the case today.

TMT

Funny thing, I got curious about this a few years back when I was reading
about Washington Rock in New Jersey, an outcropping on the first Watchung
Mountain (a volcanic ridge) where George Washington watched British troops
coming into the state from Staten Island. I've been up on that rock with
binoculars and you can hardly see a damned thing all the way to Manhattan
and the Atlantic Highlands except for trees, and a few buildings in the town
of Green Brook:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Washington_rock2.jpg

There is no way you could see troops on the ground from there today. So I
asked a park ranger and he explained that there were no trees then, except
for a few farmer's woodlots. The land was all farms, clear-cut everywhere.

Then I saw a period painting in a museum of Washington marching his troops
into Morristown, NJ, many miles to the west of Washington Rock, and it
looked like wheat fields in the Great Plains. Again, no trees. Today, from
the same spot, it looks like solid trees as far as the eye can see.

It appears to me that we have a mistaken image of what the landscape looked
like in the US, in regions that were farmed. The farmers cut those suckers
down in all directions. I can't speak for other areas, but here in the most
densely populated part of the country there are many more trees today than
there were even 200 years ago.

--
Ed Huntress

Gunner Asch wrote in
:
snip
Ive always wondered about the first guy to eat an oyster.....

Was it on a bet with the other guys?

Gunner

snip

I've always wondered who decided to try cows milk the first time, or as
Calvin of Calvin and Hobbs put it, Who said "I'm gonna pull on this and
drink whatever comes out".


Bill