On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:51:30 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White


They obviously used 2 single breakers.

Ill tell you the secret to identifying breakers.
It takes 2 people.....

Turn them off one at a time, and when the power goes away at each side
of that outlet..you have identified first one, then the other.

Now..a quick check may show that two wires come into the box, and go
straight to breakers, rather than one to neutral and one to a breaker.

If it was wired with Romex, look for a white or a red wire going to a
breaker.

Gunner


Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White

if there is a neutral in the box, why not have two independent110V lines -
that way you can go back to 220 if the need arises
"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jan 7, 8:51 pm, (Doug White) wrote:
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White

Find the breaker that feeds it and lift one of the hots and tie it
into the common bus instead, Then replace the recept to a normal
110VAC 15A

"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White
You should have two breakers that will kill the 220 (or 230 or 240) volts
between the two blade connections. There should be a double breaker but it
is not unknown for someone to install two separate ones. You should find
them feeding conductors in the same cable, one of which may be white. If
there is a white, it should become the neutral. If there is not a white, you
should apply white sleeving, tape, or other identification to the neutral at
both the breaker box and the outlet.

If you are using a digital voltmeter, do not be surprised if the voltage
does not go all the way to zero when the breakers are switched OFF.

Don Young

"Don Young" wrote in message
...

"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White
You should have two breakers that will kill the 220 (or 230 or 240) volts
between the two blade connections. There should be a double breaker but it
is not unknown for someone to install two separate ones. You should find
them feeding conductors in the same cable, one of which may be white. If
there is a white, it should become the neutral. If there is not a white,
you should apply white sleeving, tape, or other identification to the
neutral at both the breaker box and the outlet.

If you are using a digital voltmeter, do not be surprised if the voltage
does not go all the way to zero when the breakers are switched OFF.

Don Young

I think Don is pretty much right, but it is also possible that someone has
hooked a 15 Amp outlet to a higer rated double breaker. Make sure you mark
the neutral white to stay within code and keep the next guy from doing
similar head scratching.

Carl Boyd

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:51:30 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

They are supposed to run a dual breaker with a handle-tie to kill
the power to both sides of the circuit if one side trips - but
"supposed to be" does not always mean they did.

They could also have used one 15A and one 20A, or two 20A breakers,
as long as it has 12-GA or larger wire to the receptacle.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

You can make an adapter cord with pin-type test plugs to connect
your breaker finder to one hot lead and the safety ground prong - that
will send your breaker finder signal back on one side of the 240V
circuit. Change the leads to find the other side's breaker.

And if you have a 3-wire circuit in the receptacle box with two hots
and a neutral, consider removing the Split Tab on a 20A 120V (T-slot
Neutral) commercial duplex receptacle and having two dedicated 120V
circuits on the one receptacle. Now you have two 20A 120V circuits
available - perfect for a party, put the two 50-cup percolators there.
Or let the DJ plug in his sound and lighting systems.

-- Bruce --

Doug,

You're talking some serious stuff here. If you have limited knowledge and
experience with electrical wiring you're literally "playing with fire" or a
potential fire. You commented:

... and that I could just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker...

Did you mean that you thought of connecting a "hot" lead in the junction box
to the "neutral" on the duplex to simply use one of the existing wires
(probably red color) as the neutral wire? That would be acceptable if you
clearly mark it white as someone suggested (Wite-Out or white tape). The
other end in the panel would then be connected to the neutral bar after also
marking it white. That's acceptable by most codes for a reno.

But first... use your DVM across one hot and the ground at the duplex. If you
read 110 volts then you know you have ground. Check the other hot across the
ground and you should also pull 110 volts. Now have someone throw breakers
until you lose power across each hot side of the duplex and identify the
breaker(s) feeding that circuit. Don't ignore any 20 amp dual pole breakers
you may have in the panel. Someone may have wired that 15 amp duplex to a 20
amp breaker.

After identifying the breaker(s) and cutting power, remove the duplex and see
what wiring configuration you have in the box. If you have red and black
"hot" leads and a copper ground you can rewire the duplex to 110 volt by
using one hot (use black) to the brass colored "line" screw on the new duplex,
the other hot (red now colored white) to the silver colored "neutral" screw.
Copper ground wire goes to the green ground screw on the duplex AND back to a
ground screw on the box (you may need to pigtail an extra copper wire if the
existing one is too short to reach back into the box) . At the panel, your
hot black goes to your new breaker, the white (red now colored white)
connects to the neutral buss and the copper ground should already be
connected to a ground buss. Power the circuit and test it.

If you don't have one, I'd recommend buying a circuit tester for $6.00 at
your local home center. It plugs right into the duplex and has a red and 2
yellow LED's that light up to show that the circuit is properly wired (it has
a chart printed right on it and it not only shows that the circuit has power
but that it's correctly wired and grounded). It'd be a good idea to test all
your receptacles with it 'cuz the circuits will work even if the polarity is
mis-wired... but they are a fire hazard).

If you find that you have a dual pole breaker with a tie bar, don't be
tempted to use only one side of that breaker to power a 110 volt circuit
unless you cut or remove the tie bar... which effectively creates two
separate breakers. Using one side of a dual pole breaker with the tie bar
intact is very dangerous 'cuz if the circuit should short, the spring in the
inactive side of the breaker may prevent the active side from tripping. And
remember to trip the main breaker when messing around inside the panel box,
especially when changing breakers or poking around with a screw driver... I
have some melted tools to remind me of the arrogance of working in a "live"
panel.

I'm the last guy to ever discourage a DIY project, but when it comes to
electrical wiring I'd recommend getting professional help unless you're
confident about what you're doing. You, your home and your family are worth
the 50 to 100 bucks an electrician would charge to OK your handiwork. (Sorry
for the long post but I can't be brief when safety is at issue).

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Cheers

Michael

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...rking/200801/1

On Jan 7, 6:51 pm, (Doug White) wrote:

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex

Doug White

If it were me, I'd keep it so I could run my tablesaw in the dining
room.
Wouldn't the family just love me.

When you remove the coverplate on the outlet, you should see a black
and a red wire (both hot, 110 volts each), a white wire (neutral) and
probably a bare or green wire (ground). Each of the hots can create
its own 110 volt plug. Not sure how much this would get used in a
dining room, but since you have both, you can take the 110 volt outlet
and split it (little tab between the screws on the hot side) and get
each plug on its own circuit. My shop is wired this way, so that I
can plug in more tools and not blow breakers (since in a given
receptacle, the two plugs are on different circuits). This is
convenient when I want to run, say, the 12 amp dust collector and the
11 amp router or circular saw at the same time

woodworker88 wrote:
On Jan 7, 6:51 pm, (Doug White) wrote:

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex

Doug White

If it were me, I'd keep it so I could run my tablesaw in the dining
room.
Wouldn't the family just love me.

Sorry, wrong newsgroup. It's for a TIG
welder in the dining room.

woodworker88 wrote:

When you remove the coverplate on the outlet, you should see a black
and a red wire (both hot, 110 volts each), a white wire (neutral) and
probably a bare or green wire (ground).

It's unlikely that there's a white neutral wire in addition to the red and
black "hot" wires. The OP said it was a 240 volt circuit to power an air
conditioner so there's no need for a neutral in that circuit. In fact, I
wouldn't be surprised if he finds Romex, Lomex or any other standard NMW10
cable in the box with a black and white feeding the duplex... hopefully the
white was color coded to red at both ends. A "three conductor" cable (black,
red, white {the copper ground isn't included in the count} would typically
only be used where 110 and 240 are required at the same time; such as a stove
(240v heating elements and 110v clock/controls/light) or an electric dryer
(240v heating element, 110v motor/controls). Your shop wiring configuration
is another example where three conductor is used, so as to split the top and
bottom of a duplex as you explained. Split duplex's are also code
requirements for kitchen counter plugs in most jurisdictions.

--
Message posted via http://www.craftkb.com

Keywords:
In article , "Carl Boyd" wrote:

"Don Young" wrote in message
...

"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed. It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White
You should have two breakers that will kill the 220 (or 230 or 240) volts
between the two blade connections. There should be a double breaker but it
is not unknown for someone to install two separate ones. You should find
them feeding conductors in the same cable, one of which may be white. If
there is a white, it should become the neutral. If there is not a white,
you should apply white sleeving, tape, or other identification to the
neutral at both the breaker box and the outlet.

If you are using a digital voltmeter, do not be surprised if the voltage
does not go all the way to zero when the breakers are switched OFF.

Don Young

I think Don is pretty much right, but it is also possible that someone has
hooked a 15 Amp outlet to a higer rated double breaker. Make sure you mark
the neutral white to stay within code and keep the next guy from doing
similar head scratching.

This is pretty close to what I found. I popped the faceplate off the
outlet, and checked it with a flashlight. There's a black wire going to
one side, a green wire going to ground, but a WHITE wire going to the
other side. No sign I could see of red tape or other indication that
it's not a neutral. So much for wiring to code... The wires look to be
12 gauge, but it's hard to tell. They just look a little beefy to be 14
gauge.

At the breaker box, I found a dual 20 amp breaker that wasn't labeled. I
flipped that, and sure enough, the outlet (both sides) goes dead.

So, I've got what appears to be a 20 amp 220V circuit with a 15 amp
outlet & wiring incorrectly color coded. I'll get a single 20 amp
breaker, move the white wire in the breaker box to neutral, replace the
outlet & I should be all set. I haven't taken the cover off the breaker
box yet, and my only concern is having a long enough neutral wire to
reach. My recollection is that splices in the box are a no-no.

Thanks for all the suggestions & ideas. It didn't turn out to nearly as
weird as it could have been.

Doug White

"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Keywords:
In article , "Carl Boyd"
wrote:

"Don Young" wrote in message
...

"Doug White" wrote in message
...
Now that I have established some metal content, I have a question about
my screwy house wiring. The knowledge base here is about as broad as
it
gets, so I figure soembody will have some ideas.

We have an outlet in our dining room that appears to be a 220V 15A
duplex
outlet. It looks like a regular 110V 15A grounded outlet, except the
blades for the plugs are both horizontal. It was presumably installed
for a large window air conditioner before central air was installed.
It
is live, and I measured ~220V AC with a DVM across the two blades.

I'd like to convert this to a regular 115V 15A outlet. I assumed that
I
would find a dual lever 15A breaker in the panel box, and that I could
just connect one of the hot leads to neutral and install a single phase
breaker. I haven't had time to take the breaker box cover off the
breakers, but there are NO 15A dual breakers in the box.

I'll pop the cover in a day or so when I have time. In the meantime,
does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for inside the box
that might identify the related breaker? I've got a breaker tracing
gadget, but it's designed to plug into a 115V outlet. There is also no
guarantee that the outlet & breaker hookup were done correctly. I
don't
know if the "ground" hole in the outlets is connected to a real ground
or
neutral, or how to tell.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Doug White
You should have two breakers that will kill the 220 (or 230 or 240)
volts
between the two blade connections. There should be a double breaker but
it
is not unknown for someone to install two separate ones. You should find
them feeding conductors in the same cable, one of which may be white. If
there is a white, it should become the neutral. If there is not a white,
you should apply white sleeving, tape, or other identification to the
neutral at both the breaker box and the outlet.

If you are using a digital voltmeter, do not be surprised if the voltage
does not go all the way to zero when the breakers are switched OFF.

Don Young

I think Don is pretty much right, but it is also possible that someone has
hooked a 15 Amp outlet to a higer rated double breaker. Make sure you
mark
the neutral white to stay within code and keep the next guy from doing
similar head scratching.

This is pretty close to what I found. I popped the faceplate off the
outlet, and checked it with a flashlight. There's a black wire going to
one side, a green wire going to ground, but a WHITE wire going to the
other side. No sign I could see of red tape or other indication that
it's not a neutral. So much for wiring to code... The wires look to be
12 gauge, but it's hard to tell. They just look a little beefy to be 14
gauge.

At the breaker box, I found a dual 20 amp breaker that wasn't labeled. I
flipped that, and sure enough, the outlet (both sides) goes dead.

So, I've got what appears to be a 20 amp 220V circuit with a 15 amp
outlet & wiring incorrectly color coded. I'll get a single 20 amp
breaker, move the white wire in the breaker box to neutral, replace the
outlet & I should be all set. I haven't taken the cover off the breaker
box yet, and my only concern is having a long enough neutral wire to
reach. My recollection is that splices in the box are a no-no.

Thanks for all the suggestions & ideas. It didn't turn out to nearly as
weird as it could have been.

Doug White
Do not use a single 15A outlet on a 20A breaker. Assuming the wire is 12ga,
use 15A or 20A breaker and outlet together.

Don Young

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:46:01 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote:



So, I've got what appears to be a 20 amp 220V circuit with a 15 amp
outlet & wiring incorrectly color coded. I'll get a single 20 amp
breaker, move the white wire in the breaker box to neutral, replace the
outlet & I should be all set. I haven't taken the cover off the breaker
box yet, and my only concern is having a long enough neutral wire to
reach. My recollection is that splices in the box are a no-no.

Thanks for all the suggestions & ideas. It didn't turn out to nearly as
weird as it could have been.

Doug White
Do not use a single 15A outlet on a 20A breaker. Assuming the wire is 12ga,
use 15A or 20A breaker and outlet together.

Don Young


A 20A breaker feeding a single DUPLEX outlet is legal as far as I
know, unless that's been changed. (as long as the wire is 12 ga)

If the wire is 14 ga then it has to be a 15A breaker anyway.

Most inspectors I've run across will pass one or two splices in the
panel, as long as its "neat and workmanship like".

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

Randy fired this volley in
:

Most inspectors I've run across will pass one or two splices in the
panel, as long as its "neat and workmanship like".

I wish our inspectors had that attitude. I ended up (as usual) cutting
ONE hot lead too short, before I'd adequately planned where it would end
up. (before you ask, no... moving breakers around wouldn't have solved
this particular problem...sigh...)

I spliced it with the standard overlapped-wires/crimped ferrule
arrangement, did a double shrink-tubing cover (short over the splice,
then long over everything), and continued the lead to the breaker.

The inspector failed it, and said, "No splices allowed in the breaker
panel; PERIOD!". I had to pull the lead and restring it. No biggie --
it was only fifteen feet to the first outlet box; but I had to tromp down
about fifty feet of blown-in insulation to get to the work.

LLoyd

In article , (Doug White) wrote:

So, I've got what appears to be a 20 amp 220V circuit with a 15 amp
outlet & wiring incorrectly color coded. I'll get a single 20 amp
breaker, move the white wire in the breaker box to neutral, replace the
outlet & I should be all set. I haven't taken the cover off the breaker
box yet, and my only concern is having a long enough neutral wire to
reach. My recollection is that splices in the box are a no-no.

Yep, you got it, all except for the last sentence. Splices in the panel are
perfectly fine, as long as there's enough room to make them neatly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:28:36 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Randy fired this volley in
:

Most inspectors I've run across will pass one or two splices in the
panel, as long as its "neat and workmanship like".

I wish our inspectors had that attitude. I ended up (as usual) cutting
ONE hot lead too short, before I'd adequately planned where it would end
up. (before you ask, no... moving breakers around wouldn't have solved
this particular problem...sigh...)

I spliced it with the standard overlapped-wires/crimped ferrule
arrangement, did a double shrink-tubing cover (short over the splice,
then long over everything), and continued the lead to the breaker.

The inspector failed it, and said, "No splices allowed in the breaker
panel; PERIOD!". I had to pull the lead and restring it. No biggie --
it was only fifteen feet to the first outlet box; but I had to tromp down
about fifty feet of blown-in insulation to get to the work.

LLoyd
Why bother, just put a junction box beside the panel and label it
(after final inspection) "required by the inspection authority."
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

For a too short wire in the panel, just use a junction box and a new length
of cable, as Gerald mentioned, or mount a handy box nearby, and install a
receptacle in it.. always a good idea to have a convenient place to plug in
a power tool and/or worklight near the panel.

WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
...
Why bother, just put a junction box beside the panel and label it
(after final inspection) "required by the inspection authority."
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

For a too short wire in the panel, just use a junction box and a new
length of cable, as Gerald mentioned, or mount a handy box nearby, and
install a receptacle in it.. always a good idea to have a convenient
place to plug in a power tool and/or worklight near the panel.

Yeah... that's all workmanlike and servicable, but I'd already planned
all the outlets, junctions, etc. that I _wanted_ on that wall, and really
didn't want to just hack in another for that simple a fix. The drywall
work was already finished, too, so boring the top plate for a new run
into the attic would have required substantial damage to the work, and
subsequent rework.

It wasn't so much the extra work or the damage to the insulation that
bothered me as the fact that the inspector was being SO picky about a job
that was intrinsically safe, and very carefully (and cosmetically) done
right.

LLoyd

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:06:23 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

For a too short wire in the panel, just use a junction box and a new
length of cable, as Gerald mentioned, or mount a handy box nearby, and
install a receptacle in it.. always a good idea to have a convenient
place to plug in a power tool and/or worklight near the panel.

Yeah... that's all workmanlike and servicable, but I'd already planned
all the outlets, junctions, etc. that I _wanted_ on that wall, and really
didn't want to just hack in another for that simple a fix. The drywall
work was already finished, too, so boring the top plate for a new run
into the attic would have required substantial damage to the work, and
subsequent rework.

It wasn't so much the extra work or the damage to the insulation that
bothered me as the fact that the inspector was being SO picky about a job
that was intrinsically safe, and very carefully (and cosmetically) done
right.

LLoyd
The J-box beside the panel is a "pricky" fix for a "pricky" inspector.
you must have twisted his tail already for him to twist back like
this. This way it often turns into a ****ing contest.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gerald Miller fired this volley in
:


The J-box beside the panel is a "pricky" fix for a "pricky" inspector.
you must have twisted his tail already for him to twist back like
this. This way it often turns into a ****ing contest.

QUITE the contrary: He's complemented my work at every turn. He just
will NOT allow any splices in the breaker panel. So I re-strung the run.

It seems too picky, but when it comes down to a ****ing contest,
inspectors ALWAYS win.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

Gerald Miller fired this volley in
:

The J-box beside the panel is a "pricky" fix for a "pricky" inspector.
you must have twisted his tail already for him to twist back like
this. This way it often turns into a ****ing contest.

QUITE the contrary: He's complemented my work at every turn. He just
will NOT allow any splices in the breaker panel. So I re-strung the run.

It seems too picky, but when it comes down to a ****ing contest,
inspectors ALWAYS win.


Not always. I had one tell me he was going to get a court order to
stop the electrical work on a Commercial UHF TV station I was building.
He never came back, and the court never issued a stop work order.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Keywords:
In article , "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Gerald Miller fired this volley in
:


The J-box beside the panel is a "pricky" fix for a "pricky" inspector.
you must have twisted his tail already for him to twist back like
this. This way it often turns into a ****ing contest.

QUITE the contrary: He's complemented my work at every turn. He just
will NOT allow any splices in the breaker panel. So I re-strung the run.

It seems too picky, but when it comes down to a ****ing contest,
inspectors ALWAYS win.

I finally got time to pop open the breaker panel in question from the
original thread, and it looks pretty simple. There is a dual 20 amp
breaker that the black and white wires from the 220V outlet go to. I
suspect the outlet was originally wired for 117V and they switched it to
220V when they got a larger window A/C. The white wire is flagged with a
bit of blue tape, and there is plenty of length to reroute the neutral to
the neutral junction bar. All I have to do now is find a good time to
turn off all the computers and shut the entire house down. The whole job
should take about 10 minutes. Then I can replace the outlet upstairs &
I'm done.

The other interesting bit is that there are at least SIX wirenuts inside
the breaker box tying stuff togehter. It's all very tidy, but decidedly
not-to-code as I know it. Either the local inspector isn't very fussy,
or he's never looked inside our box.

Doug White

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:58:23 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:


The other interesting bit is that there are at least SIX wirenuts inside
the breaker box tying stuff togehter. It's all very tidy, but decidedly
not-to-code as I know it. Either the local inspector isn't very fussy,
or he's never looked inside our box.

Splices acceptable, as long as there's enough room in the enclosure.
Per NFPA70 2002:

************************
312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be
used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for
conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches
or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose
is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring
space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors,
splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross
section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area
of that space.
*************************

--
Ned Simmons

Keywords:
In article , Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:58:23 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:


The other interesting bit is that there are at least SIX wirenuts inside
the breaker box tying stuff togehter. It's all very tidy, but decidedly
not-to-code as I know it. Either the local inspector isn't very fussy,
or he's never looked inside our box.

Splices acceptable, as long as there's enough room in the enclosure.
Per NFPA70 2002:

************************
312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be
used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for
conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches
or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose
is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring
space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors,
splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross
section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area
of that space.
*************************

Interesting! I took my "wiring for the homeowner" class at the local
vocational school about 15 years ago. The instructor was adamant about
no splices in a breaker box. Either I misunderstood, or they've tweaked
the code since then.

It sounds like my box is OK. There's certainly a fair amount of space
around all the splices.

Thanks!

Doug White

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:13:25 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:


Interesting! I took my "wiring for the homeowner" class at the local
vocational school about 15 years ago. The instructor was adamant about
no splices in a breaker box. Either I misunderstood, or they've tweaked
the code since then.


It was tweaked somewhere in that time frame. In the 1987 codebook
splices are prohibited, then allowed by exception under pretty much
the same conditions as in the current code. I have a guidebook based
on the '93 code, and it also cites the exception.

I'm going to guess the exception was an addition, and prior to its
inclusion splices *were* banned in the service panel, and it's taken
many years for the word to trickle down.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:23:46 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:13:25 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Interesting! I took my "wiring for the homeowner" class at the local
vocational school about 15 years ago. The instructor was adamant about
no splices in a breaker box. Either I misunderstood, or they've tweaked
the code since then.

It was tweaked somewhere in that time frame. In the 1987 codebook
splices are prohibited, then allowed by exception under pretty much
the same conditions as in the current code. I have a guidebook based
on the '93 code, and it also cites the exception.

I'm going to guess the exception was an addition, and prior to its
inclusion splices *were* banned in the service panel, and it's taken
many years for the word to trickle down.

For openers, I think they are more concerned with circuits that
don't originate in the panel, and the panel is being used as a
pullbox. Like one conduit with the hot leg going to a switch box,
then running the switch-leg wire back to the panel, where it is
spliced and leaves in a different conduit going up to the ceiling
overhead light. That's what they are really trying to stop, and the
"No Splices At All" was an extreme way to force it...

Consider that often local municipalities have Local Electrical Codes
that are overly simple, this one would have been written in 1984-ish:
"We accept the 1981 NEC In Whole as the Blank City Electrical Code,
with the following exceptions..."

Problem being, if they don't choose to update the legal basis behind
it every few years, they could STILL be citing the 1981 Codebook in
2008. Most areas do skip ahead as needed, but most is not all.

"No Splices" is impossible, or I would never be able to do a simple
panel upgrade without adding $1000 minimum to the bill. I'd have
several splice boxes outside the panel enclosure to comply with the
spirit of the law in those situations...

If you slide out an old panel and slide in a new one into the same
physical space, there are always going to be a few cables where either
the hot, neutral or ground aren't going to reach the new panel's bars.
And with Romex in a completed house, there's no simple and quick
re-roping, you need to bust open walls.

Do the work in a neat and tidy manner, and I've never been
questioned on it.

HORROR STORY TIME:

But there is the one where another "allegedly licensed electrician"
reworked a hair salon. The receptacles and cabling work was fine, but
the old panel was a 12" wide Zinsco, not a standard 14-1/2" can...

She (note the pronoun, it will be important later) thought that
rather than waste a lot of time and effort to rework the hole in the
wall, she could put the new 200A panel surface mount over the top of
the old 100A panel, route all the wires though the back of the new can
with 2" chase nipples as bushings, have all the branch circuit wiring
spliced in the old can on the wall (now totally inaccessible under the
new can), and go up through the existing conduits into the drop
ceiling...

And there were a few big corners cut in the power closet changing
the meter main out to 200A that had to be totally reworked, too...

When the City Inspector gave her the Chuck Barris treatment (got out
the big mallet and hit the Gong with great vigor) she first tried to
Daisy Duke her way out by batting her eyelashes and playing dumb -
which of course didn't work. Then she skipped town (with all the
money) and left the tenant and landlord with a huge mess, with the DWP
going "You'd better get this fixed and approved pretty soon, or we're
turning off the power."

Guess who got to clean it all up... Hint: The building owners' son
is my Dentist. ("Help!")

The inspector and I had a few minor roundy-rounds, but they mostly
involved stuff that was grandfathered from 1966 original construction
that we didn't touch, and he insisted HAD to be brought up to 2006.

Like Display Window dedicated receptacles - he wanted two, and one
was enough up to a few years ago. And it was there, and working.

And he wanted us to go back and re-tie all the 1966 troffers to the
1966 wood-truss rafters with independent drop wires, so they wouldn't
depend on the 1966 T-bars for support. He backed off on that one when
I threatened to open up a few troffers and show him the date codes on
the ballasts...

(But not the two I just changed the ballasts in.)

-- Bruce --