As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Millwright Ron wrote:
Blah Blah Blah

what's not to like?

The next in line instead of best in line hiring mentality.
The greed and corruption at the top levels and incompetence in the
bottom levels. I could go on but I wont.


Bill
"I cross strike lines for fun"

Good question. I'd like to see the answer.

Millwright Ron wrote:
why aren't more people signing union cards?

On Dec 13, 3:23 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com



It is enough to have ONE boss telling you what to do; you don't need
another one (the Union) to tell you what you can't do.

If the job is that bad, quit and get a better one, or open your own
shop.

Unions ensure that the slackers get the same pay as the doers, because
of seniority.

Unions have their own agenda and it rarely coincides with what's
important for the workers.

Wolfgang

On Dec 13, 3:23 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up?

I think they will wise up. The American worker is heading for some
lean times I'm afraid.

The pendulum has swung WAY too far in favor of the fat cats.

Can't the blue collars see the screwing their taking with these
illegals flooding the labor market and the completely lopsided
trade imbalances we have with these crappy and corrupt third world
nations ??

How much longer will the blue collar buy this Rush Limbaugh utopian
crappola ?

When will the American worker find pride again in his/her trade and
an honest days work for an honest days wage ?

PLUNK

Blocked another one!

wrote in message
...
On Dec 13, 3:23 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:
As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com



It is enough to have ONE boss telling you what to do; you don't need
another one (the Union) to tell you what you can't do.

If the job is that bad, quit and get a better one, or open your own
shop.

Unions ensure that the slackers get the same pay as the doers, because
of seniority.

Unions have their own agenda and it rarely coincides with what's
important for the workers.

Wolfgang

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron wrote:
As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say,

Any chance that you'll ever have the decency to preface your off-topic
posts with the OT: prefix in the subject line any time soon?

"GatherNoMoss" wrote in message
...
On Dec 13, 3:23 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:

All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up?

I think they will wise up. The American worker is heading for some
lean times I'm afraid.

The pendulum has swung WAY too far in favor of the fat cats.

Can't the blue collars see the screwing their taking with these
illegals flooding the labor market and the completely lopsided
trade imbalances we have with these crappy and corrupt third world
nations ??

How much longer will the blue collar buy this Rush Limbaugh utopian
crappola ?

When will the American worker find pride again in his/her trade and
an honest days work for an honest days wage ?

Apparently never. They've let it slide this far with little or no
resistance or change of behavior. Just like the lazy slugs who don't even
work think they're entitled to their checks, workers in America think
they're entitled to a lifelong job, GREAT benefits, and retirement packages,
and all they have to do is make it past probation.

Steve

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


I think that your problem is that you somehow believe that you (i.e.,
the Union) and Management are interested in different things while in
fact you are both trying to do the same things. Increase income.

Unfortunately the Union has no alternative solution while Management
does - move the process offshore, which of course is going on at an
astounding rate.

Not to say that moving offshore is caused solely by high wages which
are, to a great extent caused, or magnified, by Union action, but
certainly high wages are a significant portion of the cause.

So, for whatever good the Unions may have done in the 1920-1930 period
they are a major cause in forcing industry offshore today and thus
decreasing jobs in the U.S.

As a simple example - while most of the posters in this newsgroup
realize that U.S. manufactured machine tools are of higher quality a
significant number actually purchase Chinese manufactured tools.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:33:51 -0600, Bill
wrote:

Millwright Ron wrote:
Blah Blah Blah

what's not to like?

The next in line instead of best in line hiring mentality.
The greed and corruption at the top levels and incompetence in the
bottom levels. I could go on but I wont.


Bill
"I cross strike lines for fun"
I never crossed a picket line in my life - I just went to work while
the pickets were still in bed.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Dec 13, 3:36 pm, GatherNoMoss wrote:
On Dec 13, 3:23 pm, Millwright Ron wrote:


Can't the blue collars see the screwing their taking with these
illegals flooding the labor market and the completely lopsided
trade imbalances we have with these crappy and corrupt third world
nations ??

When will the American worker find pride again in his/her trade and
an honest days work for an honest days wage ?

I did some consulting work for the Irish government in early 2002.
They were looking to develop an export market to the US for their
products. This same group of people used to be the ones that got US
manufacturers to move work to Ireland. In 2002 Irish manufacturing
wages all in were about $12.50 (and climbing fast since they entered
the European Union). Hungary was at $2.52 per hour, but you might
have to worry about electric supply. Ukraine was at $0.52 per hour,
but you had to build your powerplant. Mighty tough to compete at
those wage levels.

Millwright Ron wrote:

Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs.


Well the only place unions are doing well is in the governmental sector but
we taxpayers are getting wise and that deal is coming to an end. Remember
PATCO?

Union representation is only as good as those in your local representing
you. If you think you have poor management, wait until you experience poor
union reps. Then you get double your agravation.


Wes

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800, Millwright Ron wrote:

As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled to
our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even with
organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer better
health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the- job
security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities are
demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the numbers
aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat to
management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies. All of which
raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the earning power
and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people signing union
cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in the workforce
wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to 35%; today it's
barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were counted, it's less than
7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer environment, more control . . .
what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

That was a skillful mixing of fact and supposition.

"Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat...". No, that's not a fact,
it's a rhetorical question, which is why you answered it yourself.

Unions are a necessary evil, and in the US they have (IMHO), strayed
closer to the "evil" than the "necessary". If you take _that_ as a fact,
it explains the rest of your questions.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Greedy corrupt unions is why I have closed down 2 departments and buy-out
those parts now. I'm considering further cuts in personnel and might move
to a "Right to Work" state. Union people are idiots that want to cut the
goose open and get ALL the gold.

On Dec 14, 7:23 am, Millwright Ron wrote:
As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ronwww.unionmillwright.com

Yes, it is sad - sad to see blue collar workers swallowing (and
regurgitating) the bosses lines about unions - the specious belief
that workers are the masters of their own destiny and can individually
secure the same terms and conditions as a collective group.....the
"rugged individual" view of society......but this will mean nothing,
the capitalists have won to the extent the workers will spout the
propaganda for them...and the poor *******s wont even be aware of
this and will defend with word and deed the right to dig even deeper
holes to sink into - and will manage, always, to find someone else to
blame for their own self made predicament.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

I hope things have gotten better now but I remember a time in the late 60's,
highway construction, California.

Two masons were setting Manhole and Catch Basin grates on a highway
construction job. They would set one, on average, every 80 to 100 feet
apart. Takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to properly mortar a rim in place to the
right elevation, tilt and grade. Sitting in the truck is a Teamster. The
two masons (union) were not allowed to move the pickup 80 feet between
manholes. Talk about union inefficiency and public cost!!!

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote

I hope things have gotten better now but I remember a time in the late
60's, highway construction, California.

Two masons were setting Manhole and Catch Basin grates on a highway
construction job. They would set one, on average, every 80 to 100 feet
apart. Takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to properly mortar a rim in place to
the right elevation, tilt and grade. Sitting in the truck is a Teamster.
The two masons (union) were not allowed to move the pickup 80 feet between
manholes. Talk about union inefficiency and public cost!!!

I was a diver on the Weeks Island Strategic Salt Dome Reserve Oil line that
ran from Weeks Island to Convent, La. Our part was the part between the
levees of the Atchafalaya River Basin, roughly from Franklin to Pierre Part,
La.

They had laborers doing diving work before us. Swimming lines under
pipelines in muddy water. Working in alligator and leech infested waters.
The laborers could not do some things like accurately place sandbags
underwater at crossings, and some just got scared and refused to do the
dangerous work. So, we were called. We were given Davis-Bacon wages.

The job was for Bannister Pipelines, the same company that did the Alaskan
pipeline. Between the unions and the government, the job was an endless
series of amazing experiences.

There were floating docks that supported pipelines. Cables were strung from
a gas operated winch drum. The operator had two duties. Move the lever up.
Move the lever down. Pardon me, three. Stand there with the motor running,
and the lever in neutral. If there was ANY problem with the lift, an
engineer had to come, and that means even if he had to be flown over from
another location in a helicopter. Even if a spark plug wire came off. An
engineer was required to start the motor, add fuel, add oil, adjust the
choke, or turn the motor off.

After a couple of weeks on the job, they told us that we could not start our
own compressors. They had to be fueled, oiled, started and stopped by an
engineer. We were starting at six AM when we did it, but when the engineers
took over, we didn't get wet before ten. In a diving compressor, mineral
oil is essential in the crankcase of the compressor, or the fatal condition
of lipid pneumonia can kill whoever breathes compressed air from a petroleum
distillate compressor. Well, the compressor needed some oil, so the
engineer put some in.

One man in the hospital.

After that, the powers that be got their heads together and decided that the
diving crew knew enough about their business to take care of their own
equipment. IIRC, it was given status of medical lifesaving equipment, and
we were the only ones qualified to service and operate it. After that, no
one could touch our stuff.

We got along famously with everyone, even though they walked their strict
lines of what they could and could not do within their own job descriptions.
The laborers loved us because they didn't have to dive in dirty water and do
absurdly dangerous things while merely holding their breaths. I had the
pleasure of saving a laborer from drowning, and after that, we were gods.
Two men stood frozen, and I dove in and rescued the man who could not swim.

All in all, it was a profitable adventure. They had electric composting
toilets to comply with EPA, and about fifty union laborers whose job it was
to pick up every piece of visible styrofoam in the water or anywhere to
protect the wildlife. We used big styrofoam billets to float the pipe as it
went off the barges. They'd ride around in boats all day long, and come
back with a bucket or two of styrofoam pieces.

All paid for by US citizens.

Steve

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

What's not to like is a greedy and adversarial attitude from either
management or labor.

Predatory practice and greed by unions is as destructive as predatory
practice and greed by management. When predatory and greedy
application of the power of collective bargaining by labor makes it
impossible for an enterprise to compete, management must close the
doors and move to use other labor because they are ultimately
accountable to the stockholders for the profitability of the
enterprise. Free enterprise is not a welfare system. In simpler
terms, sucking the tit till it bleeds gets ya kicked outta the nest
and tough **** if ya starve.

Signing a union card is not a good plan for family providors if it
will lead to unemployment of more than a few members.

Things change. We have much stiffer global competition than we ever
have had in the past. We can compete if we choose to, but easy times
will only continue for those who adapt. Life and bidness are
competitive. Dinosaurs are extinct for a reason.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:25:14 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

Greedy corrupt unions is why I have closed down 2 departments and buy-out
those parts now. I'm considering further cuts in personnel and might move
to a "Right to Work" state. Union people are idiots that want to cut the
goose open and get ALL the gold.



Consider California, or even Michigan. In fact..Michigan has been
advertising all sorts of Please Move your Company To Michigan ads here
in Southern California.

Seems that after Unions drove a stake through the heart of the auto
industry...the state is hurting for industry.

Lots of states here in the West would love to have your business.

Hell..Id bet I could talk our city fathers in the little town I lve
in, into some wonderous incentives for you to put a factory here.

Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:25:14 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

Greedy corrupt unions is why I have closed down 2 departments and buy-out
those parts now. I'm considering further cuts in personnel and might move
to a "Right to Work" state. Union people are idiots that want to cut the
goose open and get ALL the gold.



Consider California, or even Michigan. In fact..Michigan has been
advertising all sorts of Please Move your Company To Michigan ads here
in Southern California.

Seems that after Unions drove a stake through the heart of the auto
industry...the state is hurting for industry.

Lots of states here in the West would love to have your business.

Hell..Id bet I could talk our city fathers in the little town I lve
in, into some wonderous incentives for you to put a factory here.

Free lap-dancers on Fridays and all the barbequed armadillos you can eat.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 14, 4:25 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
Greedy corrupt unions is why I have closed down 2 departments and buy-out
those parts now. I'm considering further cuts in personnel and might move
to a "Right to Work" state. Union people are idiots that want to cut the
goose open and get ALL the gold.
Tom,

You ought to look at this:

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com...at-bottom.html

It is comments on how Ohio rates in the 2007 Economic competition
Rating done by the American Legislative Exchange Council.


And then download the entire report. There is a link it it at the web
site. Well worth reading. In the data on each state, one of the
things listed is whether the state is a right to work state. But that
is just one of the factors presented.


Dan

On Dec 14, 10:37 am, Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:25:14 GMT, "Tom Gardner"


Consider California, or even Michigan. In fact..Michigan has been
advertising all sorts of Please Move your Company To Michigan ads here
in Southern California.

Seems that after Unions drove a stake through the heart of the auto
industry...the state is hurting for industry.

Gunner

Look at my post to Tom and read the report. California and Michigan
are not very good places for a business to locate.

Dan

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

What's not to like is a greedy and adversarial attitude from either
management or labor.

Predatory practice and greed by unions is as destructive as predatory
practice and greed by management. When predatory and greedy
application of the power of collective bargaining by labor makes it
impossible for an enterprise to compete, management must close the
doors and move to use other labor because they are ultimately
accountable to the stockholders for the profitability of the
enterprise. Free enterprise is not a welfare system. In simpler
terms, sucking the tit till it bleeds gets ya kicked outta the nest
and tough **** if ya starve.

Signing a union card is not a good plan for family providors if it
will lead to unemployment of more than a few members.

Things change. We have much stiffer global competition than we ever
have had in the past. We can compete if we choose to, but easy times
will only continue for those who adapt. Life and bidness are
competitive. Dinosaurs are extinct for a reason.

Some union men brag about how high their wages are. The average man works
2,000 hours a year. 50x40 with two weeks off. So, what's the sense of
making fifty bucks an hour if you only work intermittently. You have to
take the yearly and divide by 2,000 to see how much you REALLY make.

Steve

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:02:26 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 14, 10:37 am, Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:25:14 GMT, "Tom Gardner"


Consider California, or even Michigan. In fact..Michigan has been
advertising all sorts of Please Move your Company To Michigan ads here
in Southern California.

Seems that after Unions drove a stake through the heart of the auto
industry...the state is hurting for industry.

Gunner

Look at my post to Tom and read the report. California and Michigan
are not very good places for a business to locate.

Dan

Ill do that.

Thanks

Gunner

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Sitting in the truck is a Teamster. The
two masons (union) were not allowed to move the pickup 80 feet between
manholes. Talk about union inefficiency and public cost!!!

And that explains the attraction of unions to many. Lots of
folks would love to sit on their ass 7.5 hours a day and
draw a union scale paycheck. That's damned hard work,
keeping that seat warm, don'tcha know....

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
. ..
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Sitting in the truck is a Teamster. The two masons (union) were not
allowed to move the pickup 80 feet between manholes. Talk about union
inefficiency and public cost!!!

And that explains the attraction of unions to many. Lots of folks would
love to sit on their ass 7.5 hours a day and draw a union scale paycheck.
That's damned hard work, keeping that seat warm, don'tcha know....

Jon

I retired with 37 years in the Teamsters Union. I'd rather work eight hours
a day than sit around like that. Others prefer the sitting. It drives me
crazy. Funny thing, though. Care to guess who got pinkslipped first when
the job started to taper off?

Steve

On Dec 14, 3:04 pm, Jon Anderson wrote:

Lots of
folks would love to sit on their ass 7.5 hours a day and
draw a union scale paycheck. That's damned hard work,
keeping that seat warm, don'tcha know....


I don't know what union that is....and I've never seen a building
build itself.

Other than during lunch and perhaps a break....I'd say I sit about 2%
of my day.

Now....why not examine the work style of management ?

I know what that is....truly, sitting on the ass for 7.5 hours out of
8 is the norm.
And no it's not all brain work.

It's worker hostility against worker...that's what is somewhat
confusing.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:51:46 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:23:42 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

As the late Senator Paul Wellstone liked to say, "We may be entitled
to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts." Even
with organized labor's many problems (shrinking membership, internal
dissension, gutless Democrats, growing irrelevancy, etc.), there's no
disputing the facts.
Fact: Across the board, union jobs pay more (10-15% more), offer
better health and medical benefits, and provide workers greater on-the-
job security and influence than non-union jobs. Fact: Union facilities
are demonstrably safer than non-union facilities; statistically, the
numbers aren't even close. Fact: If unions didn't represent a threat
to management's greed and unchecked authority, they wouldn't be so
vehemently opposed by businesses and business lobbies.
All of which raises the question: Given the post-Reagan assault on the
earning power and dignity of blue-collar jobs, why aren't more people
signing union cards? Why haven't the marginal and disenfranchised in
the workforce wised up? Union membership used to hover at close to
35%; today it's barely 12%. Worse, if only private industry were
counted, it's less than 7%. Better money, richer benefits, safer
environment, more control . . . what's not to like?

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

What's not to like is a greedy and adversarial attitude from either
management or labor.

Predatory practice and greed by unions is as destructive as predatory
practice and greed by management. When predatory and greedy
application of the power of collective bargaining by labor makes it
impossible for an enterprise to compete, management must close the
doors and move to use other labor because they are ultimately
accountable to the stockholders for the profitability of the
enterprise. Free enterprise is not a welfare system. In simpler
terms, sucking the tit till it bleeds gets ya kicked outta the nest
and tough **** if ya starve.

Signing a union card is not a good plan for family providors if it
will lead to unemployment of more than a few members.

Things change. We have much stiffer global competition than we ever
have had in the past. We can compete if we choose to, but easy times
will only continue for those who adapt. Life and bidness are
competitive. Dinosaurs are extinct for a reason.

Some union men brag about how high their wages are. The average man works
2,000 hours a year. 50x40 with two weeks off. So, what's the sense of
making fifty bucks an hour if you only work intermittently. You have to
take the yearly and divide by 2,000 to see how much you REALLY make.

Steve

The average engineer and manager works a lot more than 2000 hours per
year.