The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced


American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected
Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific
exercise
and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with
4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack
submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for
launching
torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation
in
the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had
reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a
threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians
launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting
satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

--What it means is the American fleet had no submarines
involved in the exercise or they would have spotted it. 'Set a thief to
catch a thief' and all that..

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Whatever happened
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : to Andy Philbrick?
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

In article , steamer wrote:
--What it means is the American fleet had no submarines
involved in the exercise or they would have spotted it. 'Set a thief to
catch a thief' and all that..

And/or that we detected it long before it got anywhere near... but aren't
about the let the PRC know how good our detection capabilities are.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"steamer" wrote in message
...
--What it means is the American fleet had no submarines
involved in the exercise or they would have spotted it. 'Set a thief to
catch a thief' and all that..

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Whatever happened
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : to Andy Philbrick?
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

Tom Gardner wrote:
"steamer" wrote in message
...
--What it means is the American fleet had no submarines
involved in the exercise or they would have spotted it. 'Set a thief to
catch a thief' and all that..

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Whatever happened
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : to Andy Philbrick?
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

And Clinton giving away the bearing technolgy

You think those subs will be on sale at Harbour Freight soon? :}

cheers
T.Alan

This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. Shows the CIC
operators on a number of ships were wanking off instead of doing their
jobs. It takes more than good bearings and prop design to make a sub
quiet-a lot more. No way an HF Chinese diesel/electric could be
invisible to our gear if we were paying attention. Once again, we are so
self confident and secure in our might and rightness, we have been
caught AGAIN in an alley with our pant's down. Good thing the sub wasn't
piloted and crewed by some whack-jobs. And you can forget about
'pretending not to see it' to avoid alerting the Pinko Commies to our
detection capability. That would be utterly stupid and irresponsible.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Millwright Wrong wrote:
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced


American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected
Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific
exercise
and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with
4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack
submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for
launching
torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation
in
the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had
reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a
threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians
launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting
satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

I think someone else got it right: Our guys just let them think they got
away with something. Detecting diesel/electric boats is child's play,
and we're the best in the world.

JR North wrote:
This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. Shows the CIC
operators on a number of ships were wanking off instead of doing their
jobs. It takes more than good bearings and prop design to make a sub
quiet-a lot more. No way an HF Chinese diesel/electric could be
invisible to our gear if we were paying attention. Once again, we are so
self confident and secure in our might and rightness, we have been
caught AGAIN in an alley with our pant's down. Good thing the sub wasn't
piloted and crewed by some whack-jobs. And you can forget about
'pretending not to see it' to avoid alerting the Pinko Commies to our
detection capability. That would be utterly stupid and irresponsible.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Millwright Wrong wrote:
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced


American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected
Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific
exercise
and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with
4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack
submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for
launching
torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation
in
the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had
reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a
threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians
launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting
satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

How come the only mention of this is in newspapers that I never heard
of? How come Reuters, NY times, LA times, Boston Globe, etc don't have
it? Oh, I know - it's part of a conspiracy!

Bob

On Nov 15, 10:04 am, Rex wrote:
I think someone else got it right: Our guys just let them think they got
away with something. Detecting diesel/electric boats is child's play,
and we're the best in the world.

JR North wrote:
This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. Shows the CIC
operators on a number of ships were wanking off instead of doing their
jobs. It takes more than good bearings and prop design to make a sub
quiet-a lot more. No way an HF Chinese diesel/electric could be
invisible to our gear if we were paying attention. Once again, we are so
self confident and secure in our might and rightness, we have been
caught AGAIN in an alley with our pant's down. Good thing the sub wasn't
piloted and crewed by some whack-jobs. And you can forget about
'pretending not to see it' to avoid alerting the Pinko Commies to our
detection capability. That would be utterly stupid and irresponsible.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Millwright Wrong wrote:
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected
Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific
exercise
and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with
4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack
submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for
launching
torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation
in
the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had
reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a
threat.


Nah, this has got to be a troll. As a huge number of people in this
very group have stated, the Chinese are not capable of making anything
but rubbish, low quality machine tools, etc etc etc............how
could they POSSIBLY make anything as sophisticated as this.....

Either that, or they are quite happy to make crap for the silly
westerners.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

Rex wrote:

And Clinton giving away the bearing technolgy

Hi Rex

Curious: Any info on the bearing technology?
No, I'm not going to make my own sneak sub.

Tom Gardner wrote:
[...]
Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

I remember reading about Toshiba selling propeller milling machines
to the Soviets back in the '80s. Did Mitsubishi do something similar
with China?

Slater

I think the company name was switched in error.
I recall Toshiba myself. They did it in spite of signing documents
and being paid for exclusive right due to design input by ourselves.

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
[...]
Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

I remember reading about Toshiba selling propeller milling machines
to the Soviets back in the '80s. Did Mitsubishi do something similar
with China?

Slater


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Millwright Ron wrote:
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced



Gee I guess the paper needs to check it's stories. This happened LAST YEAR

During operations off Okinawa back on 26 October 2006,
the Navy is saying that a Chinese Song class submarine
evidently made a rather close approach to aircraft carrier
USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). The Song class boat evidently
surfaced within five miles of the carrier. Whether the
approach of the Song class boat was actually undetected,
the Navy refuses to say. In addition to Kitty Hawk,
(“the Battle Cat”), with her own air group --
the Kitty Hawk Strike Group includes a couple of cruisers,
seven destroyers, and a pair of submarines, plus, most
likely, satellites on call; all with a significant amount
of submarine detection ability.



--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
NRA Member
Pacifism - The theory that if they'd fed
Jeffrey Dahmer enough human flesh,
he'd have become a vegan.

wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:
[...]
Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

I remember reading about Toshiba selling propeller milling machines
to the Soviets back in the '80s. Did Mitsubishi do something similar
with China?

Slater

I think you're right, my bad.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:31:57 -0500, Tom Gardner wrote:


Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

Any cites on this?

On Nov 15, 3:23 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote:
wrote in message

... Tom Gardner wrote:
[...]
Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

I remember reading about Toshiba selling propeller milling machines
to the Soviets back in the '80s. Did Mitsubishi do something similar
with China?

Slater

I think you're right, my bad.


Propeller machining technology is not THAT new.

I remember seeing a Toshiba vertical 5 axis milling machine at
Dominion Engineering in Lachine, Quebec in the mid 1970's. This
machine is/was a monster. The main cross beam was hinged in the
middle with one milling head on each half beam. This permitted the
angle of the milling planes to be adjusted for three, four, five, or
six bladed propellers for simultaneous machining on 2 blades.

This company was in the business designing and building hydraulic
turbines, and machining runner blades for Kaplan turbine runners was
part of improving the production and hydraulic efficiency of these
monster machines.

Fascinating stuff. Nowadays it is no big deal....the Chinese could
easily build one themselves and, I suspect, the operating software you
can get off the internet for a song. HSM types are machining gas
turbine compressor and turbine wheels in their basements!!!!

The time consuming part is the hydraulic model design, testing, and
optimization which has to be done for each different application.
Study of hydraulic similitude (it's been a LONG time!) can minimize
the number of physical experiments/studies required.

IIRC the USA submarine sonar operators were lamenting in the early
1980's that many of the Soviet ships were beginning to sound alike
such that they could no longer be identified uniquely by their
propeller noise, or pump noise in the case of nuclear subs.

Wolfgang

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:31:57 -0500, Tom Gardner wrote:


Thanks to Mitsubishi selling China the technology to make really, really
quiet props, I don't know if it WAS detectable.

Any cites on this?

That was Toshiba, not Mitsubishi. They sold five-axis CNC milling machines,
which were banned for sale to the Soviets or the Chinese, for what appeared
to be a submarine-propeller machining operation. It happened around 20 years
ago.

French machine tool builder Forest-Liné also got themselves in a wringer
over this, having apparently sold five-axis machines to the Soviets a few
years earlier.

--
Ed Huntress

Jordan wrote:
Rex wrote:

And Clinton giving away the bearing technolgy

Hi Rex

Curious: Any info on the bearing technology?
No, I'm not going to make my own sneak sub.

I can't find any direct references.
I'll bet Gunner has the poop.

This will make you nervous:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...2/214624.shtml

"Rex" wrote in message
...
Jordan wrote:
Rex wrote:

And Clinton giving away the bearing technolgy

Hi Rex

Curious: Any info on the bearing technology?
No, I'm not going to make my own sneak sub.

I can't find any direct references.
I'll bet Gunner has the poop.

Ha-ha! Good choice of words. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Nov 15, 4:28 am, "Steve W." wrote:

During operations off Okinawa back on 26 October 2006,
the Navy is saying that a Chinese Song class submarine
evidently made a rather close approach to aircraft carrier
USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). The Song class boat evidently
surfaced within five miles of the carrier. Whether the
approach of the Song class boat was actually undetected,
the Navy refuses to say. In addition to Kitty Hawk,
("the Battle Cat"), with her own air group --
the Kitty Hawk Strike Group includes a couple of cruisers,
seven destroyers, and a pair of submarines, plus, most
likely, satellites on call; all with a significant amount
of submarine detection ability.

--
Steve W.

The submarine detection ability is severely reduced when steaming at
say 20 knots or more.


Dan

On Nov 15, 11:58 am, " wrote:
On Nov 15, 4:28 am, "Steve W." wrote:

During operations off Okinawa back on 26 October 2006,
the Navy is saying that a Chinese Song class submarine
evidently made a rather close approach to aircraft carrier
USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). The Song class boat evidently
surfaced within five miles of the carrier. Whether the
approach of the Song class boat was actually undetected,
the Navy refuses to say. In addition to Kitty Hawk,
("the Battle Cat"), with her own air group --
the Kitty Hawk Strike Group includes a couple of cruisers,
seven destroyers, and a pair of submarines, plus, most
likely, satellites on call; all with a significant amount
of submarine detection ability.

--
Steve W.

The submarine detection ability is severely reduced when steaming at
say 20 knots or more.

Dan

What if?

What if we spotted them earlier? Depth Charge? Admirals brig?

What if we let em think the're stealthy and sneak in and in reality we
watched them for 30 miles (or so) What would the Chinese think-"We're
good to go" False sense of security? Maybe

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:28:03 -0500, "Steve W." wrote:

Millwright Ron wrote:
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy
exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced



Gee I guess the paper needs to check it's stories. This happened LAST YEAR

During operations off Okinawa back on 26 October 2006,
the Navy is saying that a Chinese Song class submarine
evidently made a rather close approach to aircraft carrier
USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). The Song class boat evidently
surfaced within five miles of the carrier. Whether the
approach of the Song class boat was actually undetected,
the Navy refuses to say. In addition to Kitty Hawk,
(“the Battle Cat”), with her own air group --
the Kitty Hawk Strike Group includes a couple of cruisers,
seven destroyers, and a pair of submarines, plus, most
likely, satellites on call; all with a significant amount
of submarine detection ability.


Okinawa, That'll be USA'n territorial waters then? What's the problem? there's
plenty of ocean to play in :-)


Mark Rand
RTFM