I picked up a 1/8HP 115V 1ph. 2.5A 700RPM motor today.. but it came with an
odd plug. Though it's molded like a normal grounded three prong plug, the
three flat prongs on this one all point such that it looks like you can plug
it in any of 3 positions.. I'm guessing 3-phase, but that isn't what the
motor plate says!

Google turns up this for Fasco D827:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...Fasco_D800.htm
But that doesn't tell me what the wires are. (Oh, I forgot to mention I get
red, black and white to choose from. Whoop de do.)

From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding (with those plugged
in, I can hand start it in either direction) and black is the start winding,
common to white (connecting a 40 ohm resistor in series because I don't want
to blow anything, it starts in the proper direction when connected to red.
There's probably .5 to 1A in the resistor, it heats up pretty fast.) Can I
just connect that straight, should/do I need to turn it off somehow when it
comes up to speed, etc.?

BTW the wires measu
red to white = 11.5 ohms (I have no inductance test on this meter)
red to black = 2uF
back to white = 3uF
(There's a 6uF cap attached somewhere in here.)

Tim (long winded as always)

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Tim sez: " There's probably .5 to 1A in the resistor, it heats up pretty
fast.) Can I
just connect that straight, should/do I need to turn it off somehow when
it
comes up to speed, etc.?"

I think you can forget the resistor. Run it straight, after starting. (see
below) The name plate says it is a 2.5A, 700 RPM single-phase motor, so
what's to worry? Just a guess - but I'd say the strange plug was for
connection to some device that supplied power to the motor at some certain
time and for some certain function. At any rate, we know it is an induction
motor if you can hand start it in either direction. In all likelihood the
odd terminal is for switching in a start capacitor - which probably resided
in the host equipment. Try a 140 - 200 uFd cap from either side of line,
momentary, for starting.

Bob Swinney

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
I picked up a 1/8HP 115V 1ph. 2.5A 700RPM motor today.. but it came with
an
odd plug. Though it's molded like a normal grounded three prong plug, the
three flat prongs on this one all point such that it looks like you can
plug
it in any of 3 positions.. I'm guessing 3-phase, but that isn't what the
motor plate says!

Google turns up this for Fasco D827:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...Fasco_D800.htm
But that doesn't tell me what the wires are. (Oh, I forgot to mention I
get
red, black and white to choose from. Whoop de do.)

From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding (with those
plugged
in, I can hand start it in either direction) and black is the start
winding,
common to white (connecting a 40 ohm resistor in series because I don't
want
to blow anything, it starts in the proper direction when connected to red.

BTW the wires measu
red to white = 11.5 ohms (I have no inductance test on this meter)
red to black = 2uF
back to white = 3uF
(There's a 6uF cap attached somewhere in here.)

Tim (long winded as always)

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:34:13 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

I picked up a 1/8HP 115V 1ph. 2.5A 700RPM motor today.. but it came with an
odd plug. Though it's molded like a normal grounded three prong plug, the
three flat prongs on this one all point such that it looks like you can plug
it in any of 3 positions.. I'm guessing 3-phase, but that isn't what the
motor plate says!

Google turns up this for Fasco D827:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...Fasco_D800.htm
But that doesn't tell me what the wires are. (Oh, I forgot to mention I get
red, black and white to choose from. Whoop de do.)

From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding (with those plugged
in, I can hand start it in either direction) and black is the start winding,
common to white (connecting a 40 ohm resistor in series because I don't want
to blow anything, it starts in the proper direction when connected to red.
There's probably .5 to 1A in the resistor, it heats up pretty fast.) Can I
just connect that straight, should/do I need to turn it off somehow when it
comes up to speed, etc.?

BTW the wires measu
red to white = 11.5 ohms (I have no inductance test on this meter)
red to black = 2uF
back to white = 3uF
(There's a 6uF cap attached somewhere in here.)

Tim (long winded as always)

Sounds like straight capacitor run. Connect white to
red and try it out on a properly fused 5A supply.

Jim

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
I think you can forget the resistor. Run it straight, after starting.

First I tried it with 40 ohms and it spun up very slowly after hand
starting. So that told me, safely that's the run winding.

The name plate says it is a 2.5A, 700 RPM single-phase motor, so
what's to worry?

Might hit a short somehow. The lights dim nicely when I stall the drill
press, granted it's a 1/4HP motor. But it has a centrifugal switch to turn
off the start motor.

In all likelihood the
odd terminal is for switching in a start capacitor - which probably
resided in the host equipment. Try a 140 - 200 uFd cap from either
side of line, momentary, for starting.

Sounds like an awful lot for a 1/8HP motor, I'll have to string up all the
oil caps I have in the house to test that. What kind of switches can I get
to turn off the start winding after it's running?

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...

Might hit a short somehow. The lights dim nicely when I stall the drill
press, granted it's a 1/4HP motor. But it has a centrifugal switch to
turn
off the start motor.

It's the start winding. Induction motors usually draw something like seven
times their running current in a locked rotor condition. I'm no electrical
expert but this has something to do with the rotating rotor inducing a
reverse current in the windings (generator). This creates resistance which
reduces the winding's current flow. If the rotor isn't rotating, there's
virtually no resistance in the motor windings and you get lots of current
(V=IR)


Sounds like an awful lot for a 1/8HP motor, I'll have to string up all the
oil caps I have in the house to test that. What kind of switches can I
get
to turn off the start winding after it's running?


My mill (Taig) uses a cap-start motor and does not have any type of switch
to turn off the start winding after starting...

Regards,

Robin

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
I picked up a 1/8HP 115V 1ph. 2.5A 700RPM motor today.. but it came with
an
odd plug. Though it's molded like a normal grounded three prong plug, the
three flat prongs on this one all point such that it looks like you can
plug
it in any of 3 positions.. I'm guessing 3-phase, but that isn't what the
motor plate says!

Google turns up this for Fasco D827:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...Fasco_D800.htm
But that doesn't tell me what the wires are. (Oh, I forgot to mention I
get
red, black and white to choose from. Whoop de do.)

From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding (with those
plugged
in, I can hand start it in either direction) and black is the start
winding,
common to white (connecting a 40 ohm resistor in series because I don't
want
to blow anything, it starts in the proper direction when connected to red.
There's probably .5 to 1A in the resistor, it heats up pretty fast.) Can
I
just connect that straight, should/do I need to turn it off somehow when
it
comes up to speed, etc.?

BTW the wires measu
red to white = 11.5 ohms (I have no inductance test on this meter)
red to black = 2uF
back to white = 3uF
(There's a 6uF cap attached somewhere in here.)

Tim (long winded as always)


Maybe Permanent Split Capacitance motor. ( PSC )

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...connection.htm

--

SVL

"Robin S." wrote in message
...
My mill (Taig) uses a cap-start motor and does not have any type of
switch to turn off the start winding after starting...

Ya, neither does a Craftsman 1/2HP cap start motor I have, nor the drill
press. Both appear to have certrifugally switched start windings.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
says...
I picked up a 1/8HP 115V 1ph. 2.5A 700RPM motor today.. but it came with an
odd plug. Though it's molded like a normal grounded three prong plug, the
three flat prongs on this one all point such that it looks like you can plug
it in any of 3 positions.. I'm guessing 3-phase, but that isn't what the
motor plate says!

Google turns up this for Fasco D827:
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...Fasco_D800.htm
But that doesn't tell me what the wires are. (Oh, I forgot to mention I get
red, black and white to choose from. Whoop de do.)

From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding (with those plugged
in, I can hand start it in either direction) and black is the start winding,
common to white (connecting a 40 ohm resistor in series because I don't want
to blow anything, it starts in the proper direction when connected to red.
There's probably .5 to 1A in the resistor, it heats up pretty fast.) Can I
just connect that straight, should/do I need to turn it off somehow when it
comes up to speed, etc.?

BTW the wires measu
red to white = 11.5 ohms (I have no inductance test on this meter)
red to black = 2uF
back to white = 3uF
(There's a 6uF cap attached somewhere in here.)


It's a PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) motor. The capacitor
provides a phase shift to an auxiliary winding that is
connected for both running and starting. It's reversible if
you have access to the proper leads.

Ned Simmons

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
Maybe Permanent Split Capacitance motor. ( PSC )

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.co...connection.htm

That looks nice but assuming the cap is internal (which it would seem so),
it would run in either direction depending on which winding I give power to.
It doesn't start on its own when powering one winding.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

It might be a two speed motor... Other wire might be another speed...

Yeah, Tim, you are right. Make that 40 ufd or so. BTW, there's a nomograph
in Elect. Handbooks that specifies start cap sizes.

Bob Swinney
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
I think you can forget the resistor. Run it straight, after starting.

First I tried it with 40 ohms and it spun up very slowly after hand
starting. So that told me, safely that's the run winding.

The name plate says it is a 2.5A, 700 RPM single-phase motor, so
what's to worry?

Might hit a short somehow. The lights dim nicely when I stall the drill
press, granted it's a 1/4HP motor. But it has a centrifugal switch to
turn
off the start motor.

In all likelihood the
odd terminal is for switching in a start capacitor - which probably
resided in the host equipment. Try a 140 - 200 uFd cap from either
side of line, momentary, for starting.

Sounds like an awful lot for a 1/8HP motor, I'll have to string up all the
oil caps I have in the house to test that. What kind of switches can I
get
to turn off the start winding after it's running?

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Kevin Beitz" wrote in message
om...
It might be a two speed motor... Other wire might be another speed...
I have some von rueden linear accuators with a red, black, and white wire on
them with a cap built in and white is neutral, hot to red one direction hot
to black other direction and you just leave the other disconnected.

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding ... and black
is the start winding, common to white ...

So, is it okay to leave black open? Hand start maybe? (Ouch) Keep it
connected? Switch off after starting????

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Robert Swinney wrote:

Yeah, Tim, you are right. Make that 40 ufd or so. BTW, there's a nomograph
in Elect. Handbooks that specifies start cap sizes.

Bob Swinney
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...

I think you can forget the resistor. Run it straight, after starting.

First I tried it with 40 ohms and it spun up very slowly after hand
starting. So that told me, safely that's the run winding.


The name plate says it is a 2.5A, 700 RPM single-phase motor, so
what's to worry?

Might hit a short somehow. The lights dim nicely when I stall the drill
press, granted it's a 1/4HP motor. But it has a centrifugal switch to

turn

off the start motor.


In all likelihood the
odd terminal is for switching in a start capacitor - which probably
resided in the host equipment. Try a 140 - 200 uFd cap from either
side of line, momentary, for starting.

Sounds like an awful lot for a 1/8HP motor, I'll have to string up all the
oil caps I have in the house to test that. What kind of switches can I

get

to turn off the start winding after it's running?

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms





http://www.fasco.com/pdf/p48.pdf says it uses a 6M 370V capacitor

Bert

You've shown a lot of curiosity in the past, so this would be a good
opportunity to examine this motor closely to determine what type it is. My
practice is to open any used electrical devices.

I'm certain that there is no internal capacitor, and no centrifugal switch.
You should double-check the winding resistance.. they usually read like
center-tapped transformer winding (20, 20, 40 ohms for example). These are
sometimes described in motor books as 2 phase motors (derived from the
capacitor terminal that's not connected to the AC source/line), but
otherwise known as PSC, permanent split capacitor as Ned mentioned.

The electricmotorwarehouse spec sheets state that it's a PSC ball bearing
motor with CCW rotation. The image shows a large oval-shaped capacitor
attached to the motor in the picture, indicating that it's a run capacitor
(maybe it was removed from your motor). The list notes indicate that it
would be a 4uF 370VAC cap for the ball bearing motor.
That means no start/run windings, because it's not a split phase capacitor
start motor.

Motors in the speed range of this one are typically designed/rated for fan
duty, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it can't be used for other
purposes.
You'll most likely never see a 700 rpm motor that's a split phase motor with
start/run windings.. they're generally always 1725 or 3450 rpm.

The plug you described may have been specific to the appliance that the
motor was intended for, and the capacitor may have been mounted somewhere
off the motor.
A capacitor value of 2 to 10uF would probably work as long as it's an AC cap
rated at 370VAC. A cap with a diferent value than specified may affect the
operating temperature and produce a small change in speed.

WB
............

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding ... and black
is the start winding, common to white ...

So, is it okay to leave black open? Hand start maybe? (Ouch) Keep it
connected? Switch off after starting????

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
You've shown a lot of curiosity in the past, so this would be a good
opportunity to examine this motor closely to determine what type it is.
My practice is to open any used electrical devices.

;-) Tried last night but the nuts are too tight on the screws...

I'm certain that there is no internal capacitor, and no centrifugal
switch.

Unforunately, I removed the injection-molded glass-filled-plastic cover that
contains one 6uF 370VAC oil filled style capacitor.

You should double-check the winding resistance.. they usually read like
center-tapped transformer winding (20, 20, 40 ohms for example).

Did. Only one winding shows up, everything else climbs to infinity on
account of being capacitive. I've listed the values measured. Likely
inductance is partially canceling the capacitance.

These are
sometimes described in motor books as 2 phase motors (derived from the
capacitor terminal that's not connected to the AC source/line), but
otherwise known as PSC, permanent split capacitor as Ned mentioned.

If this were true, it would start and run in the respective direction
depending on what leads I applied power to. It doesn't. It doesn't move at
all with power on just the start winding, FWIW.

The electricmotorwarehouse spec sheets state that it's a PSC ball bearing
motor with CCW rotation. The image shows a large oval-shaped capacitor
attached to the motor in the picture, indicating that it's a run
capacitor (maybe it was removed from your motor). The list notes
indicate that it would be a 4uF 370VAC cap for the ball bearing motor.

6uF is mentioned on the sheet for D827, actually. It looks exactly as
pictured and appears to be whole.

That means no start/run windings, because it's not a split phase
capacitor start motor.

Which unfortunately isn't born out by the fact that one winding needs power
to get it to start turning.

Motors in the speed range of this one are typically designed/rated for
fan duty, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it can't be used for
other purposes.

Guy I got it from said it came from a school ventilation system, not
suprising.

You'll most likely never see a 700 rpm motor that's a split phase
motor with start/run windings.. they're generally always 1725 or
3450 rpm.

So what is this? It doesn't measure nor respond as a PSC does.

The plug you described may have been specific to the appliance that the
motor was intended for, and the capacitor may have been mounted somewhere
off the motor.
A capacitor value of 2 to 10uF would probably work as long as it's an
AC cap rated at 370VAC. A cap with a diferent value than specified may
affect the operating temperature and produce a small change in speed.

Ok, too bad I only have 20 and 30uF caps!

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...

So what is this? It doesn't measure nor respond as a PSC does.


http://www.fasco.com/pdf/p48.pdf

Note the #827 IS definately listed as a PSC type motor.

If it will not operate when properly connected as such, it is obviously
defective.

--

SVL

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:39:50 -0400, "Wild Bill"
wrote:



"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
From what I can tell, white and red are the run winding ... and black
is the start winding, common to white ...

IIRC sealed compressors in refrigerators use an externally mounted
starting relay, my beer fridge (1955 model) has a bi-metal strip in
series with the run winding to cut off the start winding; my kitchen
fridge (1969) has a current relay to close the start circuit which
drops out by gravity once the initial surge current has been reduced
to the run value. Both of these relays are, of course, series
connected in, and controlled by, the run circuit; the latter
requiring vertical mounting. In both cases, the motor would have three
leads and a good probability of red being the start winding.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

In article ,
says...


So what is this? It doesn't measure nor respond as a PSC does.


My bet? PSC with one winding open.

Ned Simmons

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
If it will not operate when properly connected as such, it is obviously
defective.

If it were defective, would it not run? It is still capable of starting,
running and creating a useful amount of power.

Trying with 1uF external (hey, it's all I can find on short notice) between
the windings starts it on its own in the forward direction but does nothing
when powered off the other side (the "start" winding).

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
If it will not operate when properly connected as such, it is obviously
defective.

If it were defective, would it not run? It is still capable of starting,
running and creating a useful amount of power.

Trying with 1uF external (hey, it's all I can find on short notice)
between
the windings starts it on its own in the forward direction but does
nothing
when powered off the other side (the "start" winding).


It needs power connected to both windings to start on its own, one winding
straight off line, the other in series with a capacitor, to create phase
lag.

On PSC, both windings stay energized when running, though once started, the
motor will continue to commute on lifting of power from either winding--you
just wont get but near to 1/2 the horsepower out of it is all.

--

SVL

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...


So what is this? It doesn't measure nor respond as a PSC does.


My bet? PSC with one winding open.

Ned Simmons

Clues.....10 cents a pound.....!!!

But your givin em away for free, what gives ???

--

SVL

It is what it is, not because that's my opinion, but because it was
manufactured that way.
If it doesn't run when wired as a PSC, then the obvious conclusion is that
it's defective.

It will remain a mystery as long as you want it to. Motor windings aren't a
huge mystery surrounded by a lot of other electrical characteristics.. a
static DC ohms reading is conclusive on such a short length of wire
(regardless of what it's inside of, or what it's wound around).

The dot beside the triangle in the list notes indicates the capacitor value
I mentioned.

The start winding you again refer to, does not exist.
Both "windings" need power applied for the rotor to begin rotating. There is
essentially only one winding, with a center tap.

WB
....................

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
You've shown a lot of curiosity in the past, so this would be a good
opportunity to examine this motor closely to determine what type it is.
My practice is to open any used electrical devices.

;-) Tried last night but the nuts are too tight on the screws...

I'm certain that there is no internal capacitor, and no centrifugal
switch.

Unforunately, I removed the injection-molded glass-filled-plastic cover
that
contains one 6uF 370VAC oil filled style capacitor.

You should double-check the winding resistance.. they usually read like
center-tapped transformer winding (20, 20, 40 ohms for example).

Did. Only one winding shows up, everything else climbs to infinity on
account of being capacitive. I've listed the values measured. Likely
inductance is partially canceling the capacitance.

These are
sometimes described in motor books as 2 phase motors (derived from the
capacitor terminal that's not connected to the AC source/line), but
otherwise known as PSC, permanent split capacitor as Ned mentioned.

If this were true, it would start and run in the respective direction
depending on what leads I applied power to. It doesn't. It doesn't move
at
all with power on just the start winding, FWIW.

The electricmotorwarehouse spec sheets state that it's a PSC ball
bearing
motor with CCW rotation. The image shows a large oval-shaped capacitor
attached to the motor in the picture, indicating that it's a run
capacitor (maybe it was removed from your motor). The list notes
indicate that it would be a 4uF 370VAC cap for the ball bearing motor.

6uF is mentioned on the sheet for D827, actually. It looks exactly as
pictured and appears to be whole.

That means no start/run windings, because it's not a split phase
capacitor start motor.

Which unfortunately isn't born out by the fact that one winding needs
power
to get it to start turning.

Motors in the speed range of this one are typically designed/rated for
fan duty, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it can't be used for
other purposes.

Guy I got it from said it came from a school ventilation system, not
suprising.

You'll most likely never see a 700 rpm motor that's a split phase
motor with start/run windings.. they're generally always 1725 or
3450 rpm.

So what is this? It doesn't measure nor respond as a PSC does.

The plug you described may have been specific to the appliance that the
motor was intended for, and the capacitor may have been mounted
somewhere
off the motor.
A capacitor value of 2 to 10uF would probably work as long as it's an
AC cap rated at 370VAC. A cap with a diferent value than specified may
affect the operating temperature and produce a small change in speed.

Ok, too bad I only have 20 and 30uF caps!

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
On PSC, both windings stay energized when running, though once
started, the motor will continue to commute on lifting of power
from either winding--you just wont get but near to 1/2 the horsepower
out of it is all.

Ok, that seems to make sense, although the one winding can barely keep the
motor spinning once started together (it won't even spin up starting by
hand). It seems to run just fine with the two windings together, perhaps
the capacitor is internally connected in series? Begs the question of why I
have three wires, but, that's why I'm here.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
It is what it is, not because that's my opinion, but because it was
manufactured that way.
If it doesn't run when wired as a PSC, then the obvious conclusion is that
it's defective.

It will remain a mystery as long as you want it to. Motor windings aren't
a
huge mystery surrounded by a lot of other electrical characteristics.. a
static DC ohms reading is conclusive on such a short length of wire
(regardless of what it's inside of, or what it's wound around).

The dot beside the triangle in the list notes indicates the capacitor
value
I mentioned.

The start winding you again refer to, does not exist.
Both "windings" need power applied for the rotor to begin rotating. There
is
essentially only one winding, with a center tap.


How many ways do you suppose can we explain this all to him without coming
to the conclusion that he is exceedingly dense ???

Gimmee a break man......either he is a genuine unadulterated trool, else he
shouldnt be allowed to change a freeking light bulb...........

Tim---one more time, its a combination of the coil orientation due to
physical motor construction and phase lag due to the introduction of a
capacitor into an inductive circuit......

A single phase ac induction motor cannot start if energized on only a single
winding.

--

SVL

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
else he shouldnt be allowed to change a freeking light bulb...........

Sigh...

http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/t...d_6146_Amp.gif
Or, if you must be modern:
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/t...sistor_Amp.gif

I do plenty of eletronics but I never said I was very good at magnetism...

Tim---one more time, its a combination of the coil orientation due to
physical motor construction and phase lag due to the introduction of a
capacitor into an inductive circuit......

Ya. My point being it doesn't work as a PSC is advertized to.

A single phase ac induction motor cannot start if energized on only a
single winding.

Duh, and I've shown this here on one winding as well. At this point I just
want to know:
So, is it okay to leave black open? Hand start maybe? (Ouch) Keep
it connected? Switch off after starting????

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
says...
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...
On PSC, both windings stay energized when running, though once
started, the motor will continue to commute on lifting of power
from either winding--you just wont get but near to 1/2 the horsepower
out of it is all.

Ok, that seems to make sense, although the one winding can barely keep the
motor spinning once started together (it won't even spin up starting by
hand). It seems to run just fine with the two windings together, perhaps
the capacitor is internally connected in series? Begs the question of why I
have three wires, but, that's why I'm here.


I can't completely follow the information you've given, but
I can think of three possible connections for a PSC motor
with three external leads and an internal cap.

This one makes the most sense for a non-reversible motor
and, if I understand you, seems to agree with the impedance
readings you gave. Red & black tied to hot, white to
neutral

|--B--|(---/\/\/\/\--|
L----| |
|--R----/\/\/\/\-----|
|
N-------W-----------------|

This looks like another possibility, but requires 4 leads
exiting from the windings, where in the previous example
the windings' common could be connected internally. Same
power connection as above.

|--|(--/\/\/\/\--|
W--| |
|--/\/\/\/\--| |
| |
R---------------| |
|
B-------------------|

This is a common connection for a reversible PSC motor
where the two windings are the same. Neutral to white, hot
to *either* black or red, depending on rotation. This
doesn't agree with your measured impedances.

R---------|
|
B--|--|(--|--/\/\/\/\--|
| |
|---------/\/\/\/\--|
|
W----------------------|

Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
This one makes the most sense for a non-reversible motor
and, if I understand you, seems to agree with the impedance
readings you gave. Red & black tied to hot, white to
neutral

|--B--|(---/\/\/\/\--|
L----| |
|--R----/\/\/\/\-----|
|
N-------W-----------------|

I suspect this is what it is. I opened the motor yesterday and found the
capacitor connects to a different location in the windings, and I saw two
red wires (might've been folded, might've split into two wires, Idunno)
where the line cord enters the windings, so who knows what.

This looks like another possibility, but requires 4 leads
exiting from the windings, where in the previous example
the windings' common could be connected internally. Same
power connection as above.

|--|(--/\/\/\/\--|
W--| |
|--/\/\/\/\--| |
| |
R---------------| |
|
B-------------------|

Could also be. Electrically the same, no?

This is a common connection for a reversible PSC motor
where the two windings are the same. Neutral to white, hot
to *either* black or red, depending on rotation. This
doesn't agree with your measured impedances.

R---------|
|
B--|--|(--|--/\/\/\/\--|
| |
|---------/\/\/\/\--|
|
W----------------------|

Agreed. It also doesn't start in reverse no matter how I connect it.

Thanks Ned.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Well there doesn't seem to be any info about how you built your own vacuum
tubes, in your tutorials. It can be acomplished in a kitchen, in case you
suppose that's too bizarre.

Magnetism for motors is a lot like (what's happening in) transformers, which
you seem to have an understanding of. Motors are essentially just iron and
wire (with a couple of additional parts, sometimes).
The subject motor is one of the simplest of all. Before you can proceed to
learn how it can be reversed and run at variable speed, ya pretty much gotta
know how it starts (you don't wanna be a "noob not knowing a damn"..
paraphrased from your advice page).

(1)---------(2)----------(3)

That's it, kinda easy so far. If you don't read continuity as 1 to 2, 2 to
3, and certainly 1 to 3, then you don't have a motor, you just have an
oversized inductor.. since there is a fault (open circuit) in a winding.
There should be no continuity from any of the stator leads to the case, of
course.

Your motor might have a thermal protection device in it. If it does, it's
usually stated on the data plate on the motor housing or in the
manufacturer's specs. In small motors like this one, the TP is usually a
self-resetting bimetal type which could mounted within the stator.
Larger motors commonly have a mechanically attached TP device mounted to the
back end bell, and sometimes they're manually reset (button exposed on rear
of motor), or they may be self-resetting/no button.

The PSC motor doesn't start without the capacitor. I think you're familiar
with the term phase, related to AC. The capacitor creates the required
phase.. and if you've ever read the converter posts in RCM, you'll know how
and/or why the capacitor is paramount.
When I used the description "2 phase" a couple of days ago, you would've
probably understood the PSC motor operation if you were being attentive.
It's a simple matter of knowing what's your vector, Victor.

This extended reply is the reason I generally don't reply to electrical
questions. I'm no genius or the hero complex type. I noticed that you were
getting a couple of replies that would likely create some confusion. I
failed to factor in the mysticism parameter.
I've encountered numerous people that want to hear a particular answer when
they ask a question, and when they don't, they'll modify the question to try
to get the answer they want to hear.
I'm very familiar with these motors and have built amplifiers (starting
several decades ago), and I would assume that no one gives a fat rat's ass.

To test a PSC motor, you've gotta have continuity as shown above.
An earth ground lead is securely attached to the motor case.
The AC neutral lead can be attached to 2.
The appropriate AC capacitor is connected between 1 and 3.
The fused AC line lead can be attached to 1 or 3 (not both).
It should be readily apparent, blatently obvious, plain as the nose.. why
the term 2 phase is used, even if your motor doesn't start.

If it doesn't start on it's own, then it's not going to (no matter how you
connect any type of power to it, even 637V 12 phase with an RF boost and a
7.8 farad capacitor isn't gonna make it start).

If it has a fault, you can throw it away, or determine where the fault is
(just to be thorough). There's absolutely no sane reason for being thorough,
although having knowledge for the next time could be perceived as being
worthwhile.
Of course, some of the parts and materials are worthwhile, if nothing else.
The hand spin start isn't worth much more than a cheap thrill since the
motor's power output is about zero.squat (you'll have to check my math,
'cause I think I might've missed a zero or two).

Troubleshooting.. a TP device is typically connected (inside the motor) in
series with the external lead going to connection 2.
If the TP is open (it shouldn't be, but parts fail), there will still be
continuity between 1 and 3, but none from 2 to 1, or 2 to 3.

Maybe your motor doesn't have a TP device, and the data plate/or specs might
state impedance protected. In this case, the continuity should be as stated
in the motor-or-inductor evaluation mentioned earlier. As a review,
continuity isn't affected by weird science, or a question of what's the
frequency, Kenneth.

If the motor did start and run, that doesn't absolutely confirm that it's
fault-free.. there could be the possibilities of overheating, intermittent
operation, capacitor fault or other problems.

I've proof readed this information, and certify that it's more-or-less
somewhat accurate, to a fairly reasonable degree.
And I'd bet the life of somebody's cat on that.

WB
..................

"Tim Williams" wrote in message

some stuff about something

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
Well there doesn't seem to be any info about how you built your own vacuum
tubes, in your tutorials. It can be acomplished in a kitchen, in case you
suppose that's too bizarre.

Magnetism for motors is a lot like (what's happening in) transformers,
which
you seem to have an understanding of. Motors are essentially just iron and
wire (with a couple of additional parts, sometimes).
The subject motor is one of the simplest of all. Before you can proceed to
learn how it can be reversed and run at variable speed, ya pretty much
gotta
know how it starts (you don't wanna be a "noob not knowing a damn"..
paraphrased from your advice page).

(1)---------(2)----------(3)

That's it, kinda easy so far. If you don't read continuity as 1 to 2, 2 to
3, and certainly 1 to 3, then you don't have a motor, you just have an
oversized inductor.. since there is a fault (open circuit) in a winding.
There should be no continuity from any of the stator leads to the case, of
course.

Your motor might have a thermal protection device in it. If it does, it's
usually stated on the data plate on the motor housing or in the
manufacturer's specs. In small motors like this one, the TP is usually a
self-resetting bimetal type which could mounted within the stator.
Larger motors commonly have a mechanically attached TP device mounted to
the
back end bell, and sometimes they're manually reset (button exposed on
rear
of motor), or they may be self-resetting/no button.

The PSC motor doesn't start without the capacitor. I think you're familiar
with the term phase, related to AC. The capacitor creates the required
phase.. and if you've ever read the converter posts in RCM, you'll know
how
and/or why the capacitor is paramount.
When I used the description "2 phase" a couple of days ago, you would've
probably understood the PSC motor operation if you were being attentive.
It's a simple matter of knowing what's your vector, Victor.

This extended reply is the reason I generally don't reply to electrical
questions. I'm no genius or the hero complex type. I noticed that you were
getting a couple of replies that would likely create some confusion. I
failed to factor in the mysticism parameter.
I've encountered numerous people that want to hear a particular answer
when
they ask a question, and when they don't, they'll modify the question to
try
to get the answer they want to hear.
I'm very familiar with these motors and have built amplifiers (starting
several decades ago), and I would assume that no one gives a fat rat's
ass.

To test a PSC motor, you've gotta have continuity as shown above.
An earth ground lead is securely attached to the motor case.
The AC neutral lead can be attached to 2.
The appropriate AC capacitor is connected between 1 and 3.
The fused AC line lead can be attached to 1 or 3 (not both).
It should be readily apparent, blatently obvious, plain as the nose.. why
the term 2 phase is used, even if your motor doesn't start.

If it doesn't start on it's own, then it's not going to (no matter how you
connect any type of power to it, even 637V 12 phase with an RF boost and a
7.8 farad capacitor isn't gonna make it start).

If it has a fault, you can throw it away, or determine where the fault is
(just to be thorough). There's absolutely no sane reason for being
thorough,
although having knowledge for the next time could be perceived as being
worthwhile.
Of course, some of the parts and materials are worthwhile, if nothing
else.
The hand spin start isn't worth much more than a cheap thrill since the
motor's power output is about zero.squat (you'll have to check my math,
'cause I think I might've missed a zero or two).

Troubleshooting.. a TP device is typically connected (inside the motor) in
series with the external lead going to connection 2.
If the TP is open (it shouldn't be, but parts fail), there will still be
continuity between 1 and 3, but none from 2 to 1, or 2 to 3.

Maybe your motor doesn't have a TP device, and the data plate/or specs
might
state impedance protected. In this case, the continuity should be as
stated
in the motor-or-inductor evaluation mentioned earlier. As a review,
continuity isn't affected by weird science, or a question of what's the
frequency, Kenneth.

If the motor did start and run, that doesn't absolutely confirm that it's
fault-free.. there could be the possibilities of overheating, intermittent
operation, capacitor fault or other problems.

I've proof readed this information, and certify that it's more-or-less
somewhat accurate, to a fairly reasonable degree.
And I'd bet the life of somebody's cat on that.

WB
.................

"Tim Williams" wrote in message

some stuff about something

BAM! Tim, listen to your elders! What Wild Bill says is that there is no
shortcut to knowledge. This is particularly true in his remarks re. "Keep
rephrasing the question until the answer is the one you're looking for". If
you spent the time studying motor theory that you've spent on experimenting
with one crappy motor; then you'd be equipped to answer some of your own
questions. Don't get me wrong, here, Tim. Experimentation is a good thing
but it is no sure path to knowledge and understanding. Besides it can be
dangerous, roughly in a manner related inversely to the operator's
knowledge. One sage, Franklin I believe, put it well when he went
"Experience keepeth a dear school, but a fool learneth no other way".

Bob (Nature abhors a fool) Swinney

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
Well there doesn't seem to be any info about how you built your own vacuum
tubes, in your tutorials. It can be acomplished in a kitchen, in case you
suppose that's too bizarre.

Magnetism for motors is a lot like (what's happening in) transformers,
which
you seem to have an understanding of. Motors are essentially just iron and
wire (with a couple of additional parts, sometimes).
The subject motor is one of the simplest of all. Before you can proceed to
learn how it can be reversed and run at variable speed, ya pretty much
gotta
know how it starts (you don't wanna be a "noob not knowing a damn"..
paraphrased from your advice page).

(1)---------(2)----------(3)

That's it, kinda easy so far. If you don't read continuity as 1 to 2, 2 to
3, and certainly 1 to 3, then you don't have a motor, you just have an
oversized inductor.. since there is a fault (open circuit) in a winding.
There should be no continuity from any of the stator leads to the case, of
course.

Your motor might have a thermal protection device in it. If it does, it's
usually stated on the data plate on the motor housing or in the
manufacturer's specs. In small motors like this one, the TP is usually a
self-resetting bimetal type which could mounted within the stator.
Larger motors commonly have a mechanically attached TP device mounted to
the
back end bell, and sometimes they're manually reset (button exposed on
rear
of motor), or they may be self-resetting/no button.

The PSC motor doesn't start without the capacitor. I think you're familiar
with the term phase, related to AC. The capacitor creates the required
phase.. and if you've ever read the converter posts in RCM, you'll know
how
and/or why the capacitor is paramount.
When I used the description "2 phase" a couple of days ago, you would've
probably understood the PSC motor operation if you were being attentive.
It's a simple matter of knowing what's your vector, Victor.

This extended reply is the reason I generally don't reply to electrical
questions. I'm no genius or the hero complex type. I noticed that you were
getting a couple of replies that would likely create some confusion. I
failed to factor in the mysticism parameter.
I've encountered numerous people that want to hear a particular answer
when
they ask a question, and when they don't, they'll modify the question to
try
to get the answer they want to hear.
I'm very familiar with these motors and have built amplifiers (starting
several decades ago), and I would assume that no one gives a fat rat's
ass.

To test a PSC motor, you've gotta have continuity as shown above.
An earth ground lead is securely attached to the motor case.
The AC neutral lead can be attached to 2.
The appropriate AC capacitor is connected between 1 and 3.
The fused AC line lead can be attached to 1 or 3 (not both).
It should be readily apparent, blatently obvious, plain as the nose.. why
the term 2 phase is used, even if your motor doesn't start.

If it doesn't start on it's own, then it's not going to (no matter how you
connect any type of power to it, even 637V 12 phase with an RF boost and a
7.8 farad capacitor isn't gonna make it start).

If it has a fault, you can throw it away, or determine where the fault is
(just to be thorough). There's absolutely no sane reason for being
thorough,
although having knowledge for the next time could be perceived as being
worthwhile.
Of course, some of the parts and materials are worthwhile, if nothing
else.
The hand spin start isn't worth much more than a cheap thrill since the
motor's power output is about zero.squat (you'll have to check my math,
'cause I think I might've missed a zero or two).

Troubleshooting.. a TP device is typically connected (inside the motor) in
series with the external lead going to connection 2.
If the TP is open (it shouldn't be, but parts fail), there will still be
continuity between 1 and 3, but none from 2 to 1, or 2 to 3.

Maybe your motor doesn't have a TP device, and the data plate/or specs
might
state impedance protected. In this case, the continuity should be as
stated
in the motor-or-inductor evaluation mentioned earlier. As a review,
continuity isn't affected by weird science, or a question of what's the
frequency, Kenneth.

If the motor did start and run, that doesn't absolutely confirm that it's
fault-free.. there could be the possibilities of overheating, intermittent
operation, capacitor fault or other problems.

I've proof readed this information, and certify that it's more-or-less
somewhat accurate, to a fairly reasonable degree.
And I'd bet the life of somebody's cat on that.

WB
.................

"Tim Williams" wrote in message

some stuff about something