Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Ernie Leimkuhler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.
  #2   Report Post  
Grant Erwin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

I have a like-new tool & cutter grinder you can play with if you want
to adapt something by grinding it.

Grant

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.


  #3   Report Post  
axolotl
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.



POR makes a high temperature putty/adhesive sold for (among other
things) exhaust manifold repairs. It gives the appearance of being metal
filled, which would make it conductive. Before anyone gets their hopes
up, it doesn't work on exhaust manifolds. Might be a very expensive
option for you.

Kevin Gallimore


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  #4   Report Post  
Ernie Leimkuhler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

In article , axolotl
wrote:

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.



POR makes a high temperature putty/adhesive sold for (among other
things) exhaust manifold repairs. It gives the appearance of being metal
filled, which would make it conductive. Before anyone gets their hopes
up, it doesn't work on exhaust manifolds. Might be a very expensive
option for you.

Kevin Gallimore


The guys I talked to said temperature wasn't the main problem.
It seems that even the high temp putties out-gas, and that will cause
bubbles in the powdercoat.
  #5   Report Post  
Ernie Leimkuhler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

In article , Grant Erwin
wrote:

I have a like-new tool & cutter grinder you can play with if you want
to adapt something by grinding it.

Grant


Thanks Grant I will think about that.




Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.




  #6   Report Post  
Walt Springs
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Ernie ,just a thought, how about friction tinning with 90/10 , then 63/37
and top off with 40/60 to get a fine finish, you should be able to fair out
the seam. The adhesion will be better than poly fillers and will work well
with an electrostatic painting process. Heat warping must be considered in
the tinning process.



"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.



  #7   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:29:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
calmly ranted:

In article , axolotl
wrote:

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.



POR makes a high temperature putty/adhesive sold for (among other
things) exhaust manifold repairs. It gives the appearance of being metal
filled, which would make it conductive. Before anyone gets their hopes
up, it doesn't work on exhaust manifolds. Might be a very expensive
option for you.

Kevin Gallimore


The guys I talked to said temperature wasn't the main problem.
It seems that even the high temp putties out-gas, and that will cause
bubbles in the powdercoat.


So run it through the oven sans powdercoat, then powdercoat it,
then run it through the oven again. Possible?


--== May The Angst Be With You! ==--
-Yoda, on a bad day
--
http://diversify.com Ending Your Web Page Angst.

  #8   Report Post  
Shawn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.


Instead of a tongue and groove, why not a shiplap joint? This would
probably be easier to machine and your thinnest dimension would be .045".
Just a thought.

Shawn


  #9   Report Post  
Carl Ijames
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Varian makes an epoxy called TorrSeal (and others now make knockoffs
just as good) that is good to at least 250 F and will not outgas until
you get it hot enough to start decomposing. It's made for sealing
vacuum systems, naturally, and I've used it in a UHV system with a base
pressure down in the 10-9 torr range so I can attest to the "no
outgassing" part :-). Sands okay after curing. I'd try Duniway
Stockroom as a good cheap supplier and try a small test piece at your
powdercoaters. Go to
http://www.duniway.com/images/pdf/p-...s-supplies.pdf and look
at epoxy patch. Oh, I se that they list it as good to 150 C which is
302 F which should be enough for a quick coat cycle.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net


The guys I talked to said temperature wasn't the main problem.
It seems that even the high temp putties out-gas, and that will cause
bubbles in the powdercoat.



  #10   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:18:31 -0400, "Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet
wrote:

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.


Instead of a tongue and groove, why not a shiplap joint? This would
probably be easier to machine and your thinnest dimension would be .045".
Just a thought.

Shawn

Is the problem with the edges because the electrons are coming off
easier there? Like the sharp point of an electrode? If so, then
wouldn't your joint still end up with points? Even if the point is
laying right on a surface won't it still act the same? I don't know,
but maybe someone in the electronics newsgroups would.
ERS


  #11   Report Post  
Shawn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

It seems that no matter what, there will be a joint to deal with. Why not
at least make it a strong joint?

Shawn
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:18:31 -0400, "Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet
wrote:

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.


Instead of a tongue and groove, why not a shiplap joint? This would
probably be easier to machine and your thinnest dimension would be .045".
Just a thought.

Shawn

Is the problem with the edges because the electrons are coming off
easier there? Like the sharp point of an electrode? If so, then
wouldn't your joint still end up with points? Even if the point is
laying right on a surface won't it still act the same? I don't know,
but maybe someone in the electronics newsgroups would.
ERS



  #12   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Might want to talk to a metal roofer - the real type not pre-fab.

The copper tops are normally double fold and they have some tools.

Just a thought. - maybe a gutter man - doing copper...

Martin

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

In article , Grant Erwin
wrote:


I have a like-new tool & cutter grinder you can play with if you want
to adapt something by grinding it.

Grant



Thanks Grant I will think about that.





Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:


I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.




--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

  #13   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

In article , axolotl
wrote:


Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:


I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.



POR makes a high temperature putty/adhesive sold for (among other
things) exhaust manifold repairs. It gives the appearance of being metal
filled, which would make it conductive. Before anyone gets their hopes
up, it doesn't work on exhaust manifolds. Might be a very expensive
option for you.

Kevin Gallimore



The guys I talked to said temperature wasn't the main problem.
It seems that even the high temp putties out-gas, and that will cause
bubbles in the powdercoat.

Can the panel be heated to out-gas the putties and then power coated ?
If the putties are transformed under heat - e.g. cooked - they might stay put.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

  #14   Report Post  
Ernie Leimkuhler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

In article , Eric R Snow
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:18:31 -0400, "Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet
wrote:

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.


Instead of a tongue and groove, why not a shiplap joint? This would
probably be easier to machine and your thinnest dimension would be .045".
Just a thought.

Shawn

Is the problem with the edges because the electrons are coming off
easier there? Like the sharp point of an electrode? If so, then
wouldn't your joint still end up with points? Even if the point is
laying right on a surface won't it still act the same? I don't know,
but maybe someone in the electronics newsgroups would.
ERS


My thoughtr was that the joint could be sanded with a DA sander to
leave almost no visible seam.
This would reduce the electrostatic difference so the seam should be
less visible.
The panels will be about 12 feet above a store front so I am more
worried about viewing distances of 20 - 30 feet.
  #15   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Sounds like a job for Friction stir welding..........Just
kidding........

If the panel will only be seen from one side, how about spot welding
tabs on the back side to hold the sheets together.

Dan

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message


My thoughtr was that the joint could be sanded with a DA sander to
leave almost no visible seam.
This would reduce the electrostatic difference so the seam should be
less visible.
The panels will be about 12 feet above a store front so I am more
worried about viewing distances of 20 - 30 feet.



  #16   Report Post  
Ernie Leimkuhler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

In article , Dan Caster
wrote:

Sounds like a job for Friction stir welding..........Just
kidding........

If the panel will only be seen from one side, how about spot welding
tabs on the back side to hold the sheets together.

Dan


Well I don't have a spot welder capable of doing aluminum, and the ones
that can are expensive.

I am trying to stay away from welding solutions because of distortion.

I might just try a riveted seam on a small panel and have it
powdercoated as a test.








Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message


My thoughtr was that the joint could be sanded with a DA sander to
leave almost no visible seam.
This would reduce the electrostatic difference so the seam should be
less visible.
The panels will be about 12 feet above a store front so I am more
worried about viewing distances of 20 - 30 feet.

  #17   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

You can always use a Mig welder with a timer to spot weld. I have not
tried it on aluminum, but think it ought to work better than most
resistance spot welders. If you are going to try a small riveted seam
panel, you might try a small panel with spot welded tabs. If it looks
crappy before powder coating, there would be no need to spend any
money having it powder coated. But if it looks good, I would think it
would be a lot faster than drilling and countersinking for rivets.

Dan



Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message

Well I don't have a spot welder capable of doing aluminum, and the ones
that can are expensive.

I am trying to stay away from welding solutions because of distortion.

I might just try a riveted seam on a small panel and have it
powdercoated as a test.






  #18   Report Post  
nic
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Putting the Vee's on the edges will still give you an exposed edge. I
guess in the perfect world there would no more of a transition from one
sheet to the other than butted edges would give. Given that you can
control a sheet this large while feeding it past the cutter.Now do that
for both sheets. Remember that you have to control x,y, and z axes or
you will get a gage step, an crooked edge, or both. I'd suggest that the
mill edge, maybe with some careful deburring will be about as good as
you can get without setting up on a mill to do a single pass.
Check with your powder coater to see if they can coat the seam several
times to give a filling effect. I know that there is a practical limit
to how much it can be built up, but it may be enough to smooth out a few
thou. of mismatch. Also, inquire about using a primer, maybe it can be
"built up" to fill the gaps.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

I have a theory about how to seam panels of aluminum, and was wondering
if anybody has heard of such a device.

I am bidding a large aluminum job right now, and part of it is
a 10' x 10' panel that needs to be powder coated.
The panels are 0.090" 5052 aluminum.
The largest sheets I can get to skin it are 5' x 10'.

I have not been able to find any suppliers of a spot putty that can
take the 500 degF of the powdercoating oven.

The powder coaters I have talked to say that it is very hard to make
panel seams not show up under powdercoat.
The eletrostatic effect hat clings the powder to the metal tends to
accensuate edges, not hide them.

I had this idea for doing a tongue and groove on the panel edges.

I was wondering about making a small milling device that could V-groove
the edge of one panel and shape the other panel edge into a knife
edge.

I am thinking about 1/4" overlap.

The problem is the grooving cutter.
I would set these up in a router table and simply feed the metal past
it.
I am worried about milling 5052.
It is a bit gummy.

It is approximately a 20 deg included angle for the groove I need.
I would need precision roller giudes to capture the sheet edge, but
that is still not that difficult.
I am thinking of adapting a small horizontal miling cutter for this.

So to use it I would mill one edge as a groove and the other as a knife.
The 2 would be nested together and attached to the backing frames using
flush aircraft rivets.

After a little sanding it should be a pretty tight joint.

I have thought about just skiving the edges of both panels to thin
knife edges and lapping them, but that woories me more.

  #19   Report Post  
erie patsellis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Powdercoating panel seaming idea.

Ernie,
I do this on a regular basis in our sign shop.
While we don't powdercoat, there are several things
that can make this a lot easier.
First,I wouldn't used bucked rivets, one slip and oops..

Prep the panels per your idea and use either
1) Lord adhesives epoxy (check their chart for proper one to use,
I'm sure they make an adhesive that will tolerate 500 degrees for the
short time it's in the oven.

2) 3M VHB tape. this is what we use for 99% of our signs and after it
reaches ultimate strength (about 48 hours) I can't get things apart
without seriously damaging either piece.


erie
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