George Bush has been touting democracy as the ultimate goal for all the
Middle Eastern nations, and says that by democratizing the states of the
Middle East the problems that plague the region will be solved. Today the
Palestinian people have spoken is a truly democratic fashion. They have
elected their own government and who did they put in power? None other than
Hamas, the terrorist group responsible for the majority of the suicide
attacks against Israel. After seeing how this went in the Palestinian
elections who's to say that the same thing will not happen in any other
Middle Eastern state that has free elections. If they do the same as the
Palestinians and elect either terrorists or fundamentalist Islamic radical
clerics to lead their countries this will be anything but an improvement.
Which prompts the question; how do you like democracy now and does
democratizing every nation in the area still sound like a good idea?

Hawke

In article ,
"Hawke" wrote:

George Bush has been touting democracy as the ultimate goal for all the
Middle Eastern nations, and says that by democratizing the states of the
Middle East the problems that plague the region will be solved. Today the
Palestinian people have spoken is a truly democratic fashion. They have
elected their own government and who did they put in power? None other than
Hamas, the terrorist group responsible for the majority of the suicide
attacks against Israel. After seeing how this went in the Palestinian
elections who's to say that the same thing will not happen in any other
Middle Eastern state that has free elections. If they do the same as the
Palestinians and elect either terrorists or fundamentalist Islamic radical
clerics to lead their countries this will be anything but an improvement.
Which prompts the question; how do you like democracy now and does
democratizing every nation in the area still sound like a good idea?

Hawke



BUSH democracy is elections supervised by US tanks and counted by the
CIA.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

I think it's wonderful! Hamas will be tempered as they are going to have to
be responsible now for everything from securing foreign aid to garbage
collection. Kind of like a gang of bikers having to run a day-care center.
I'll bet they rise to the occasion. They admit they didn't expect to gain
power, now it's put-up or shut-up and the people are not going to put up
with crap or the will get voted out. I'm hopeful! The money is the big
thing here and Hamas WILL do what it takes for the money...watch!


"Hawke" wrote in message
...
George Bush has been touting democracy as the ultimate goal for all the
Middle Eastern nations, and says that by democratizing the states of the
Middle East the problems that plague the region will be solved. Today the
Palestinian people have spoken is a truly democratic fashion. They have
elected their own government and who did they put in power? None other
than
Hamas, the terrorist group responsible for the majority of the suicide
attacks against Israel. After seeing how this went in the Palestinian
elections who's to say that the same thing will not happen in any other
Middle Eastern state that has free elections. If they do the same as the
Palestinians and elect either terrorists or fundamentalist Islamic radical
clerics to lead their countries this will be anything but an improvement.
Which prompts the question; how do you like democracy now and does
democratizing every nation in the area still sound like a good idea?

Hawke

I hope you're right Tom. Will they use the money to continue to preach
hate and train their young people to blow themselves up in Israeli
public places? Will they use the money to arm themselves and fulfill
their charter of the utter destruction of Israel? Will they use the
money and power to impose their Islamic fundamentalist values on the
majority of Palestinian people? A common mistake westerners make is to
overlay our set of values on the Arab mind and culture. Might simply
does make right. You either have the "stick" or you're getting beat
with it. In the long run though, I believe any change from the corrupt
Fatah party may be a good one. I really do hope you are right, and
peacewill come to both the Palestinians and Israelis.
-Mike

The US won't deal with them unless they modify their stance on Israel so, no
money. As for their mind and culture, they're losers. Their society would
self-destruct if not propped-up with oil money and foreign aid. They
contribute nothing to the world, their whole religion is based on crap.

"mlcorson" wrote in message
oups.com...
I hope you're right Tom. Will they use the money to continue to preach
hate and train their young people to blow themselves up in Israeli
public places? Will they use the money to arm themselves and fulfill
their charter of the utter destruction of Israel? Will they use the
money and power to impose their Islamic fundamentalist values on the
majority of Palestinian people? A common mistake westerners make is to
overlay our set of values on the Arab mind and culture. Might simply
does make right. You either have the "stick" or you're getting beat
with it. In the long run though, I believe any change from the corrupt
Fatah party may be a good one. I really do hope you are right, and
peacewill come to both the Palestinians and Israelis.
-Mike

So is Bush going to cut aid today?
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
om...
The US won't deal with them unless they modify their stance on Israel so,
no money. As for their mind and culture, they're losers. Their society
would self-destruct if not propped-up with oil money and foreign aid.
They contribute nothing to the world, their whole religion is based on
crap.

"mlcorson" wrote in message
oups.com...
I hope you're right Tom. Will they use the money to continue to preach
hate and train their young people to blow themselves up in Israeli
public places? Will they use the money to arm themselves and fulfill
their charter of the utter destruction of Israel? Will they use the
money and power to impose their Islamic fundamentalist values on the
majority of Palestinian people? A common mistake westerners make is to
overlay our set of values on the Arab mind and culture. Might simply
does make right. You either have the "stick" or you're getting beat
with it. In the long run though, I believe any change from the corrupt
Fatah party may be a good one. I really do hope you are right, and
peacewill come to both the Palestinians and Israelis.
-Mike

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
So is Bush going to cut aid today?

I hope so! That's what he implied at the press conference.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:44:18 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
So is Bush going to cut aid today?

I hope so! That's what he implied at the press conference.


I don't think there is any direct US aid to the PA. Bush tried to
institute direct aid to the PA (not his worst idea, by any means) but
it got scuppered in Congress except for one year (2003, IIRC). AFAIUI.
US aid to Palestinians is through the UN or otherwise bypasses their
government.

Europe, OTOH, gives much more money than the US total, and directly to
the PA (with some controls on how it is spent).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:33:24 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:44:18 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
So is Bush going to cut aid today?

I hope so! That's what he implied at the press conference.


I don't think there is any direct US aid to the PA. Bush tried to
institute direct aid to the PA (not his worst idea, by any means) but
it got scuppered in Congress except for one year (2003, IIRC). AFAIUI.
US aid to Palestinians is through the UN or otherwise bypasses their
government.

Europe, OTOH, gives much more money than the US total, and directly to
the PA (with some controls on how it is spent).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

TV news said $five hundred million a year to Palestine.

Need to get another key board.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:40 -0800, the renowned Sunworshipper
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:33:24 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:44:18 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
So is Bush going to cut aid today?

I hope so! That's what he implied at the press conference.


I don't think there is any direct US aid to the PA. Bush tried to
institute direct aid to the PA (not his worst idea, by any means) but
it got scuppered in Congress except for one year (2003, IIRC). AFAIUI.
US aid to Palestinians is through the UN or otherwise bypasses their
government.

Europe, OTOH, gives much more money than the US total, and directly to
the PA (with some controls on how it is spent).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

TV news said $five hundred million a year to Palestine.

From everyone maybe:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21594.pdf

Need to get another key board.

Ever tried cleaning between those clear polyester sheets inside the
keyboard? I think there's still a bit of Aussie wine left in mine.
Maybe some IP alcohol will work.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

First of all - the act of voting does not make a Democratic State. It is
an action within a democracy.

Second of all - the existing party - remember them - the evil ones who killed
people on trains in the Holland flooded fields, Killed the Sports team, dumped a man off
the back of a cruse ship in his wheelchair - the real nice people - the ones -
remember when Arafat came to the Palestine coast - from exile in France -
His men had to machine gun his followers away from the cars. Killing their
own people. Nice. Then this government starved and kept many in crappy
housing or tents for years. These people were turned into his killers.

That was the good party ? - The people had Bad vs. "screwed by them before"
Now at least - the people are watching and expecting and know their power.
Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Hawke wrote:
George Bush has been touting democracy as the ultimate goal for all the
Middle Eastern nations, and says that by democratizing the states of the
Middle East the problems that plague the region will be solved. Today the
Palestinian people have spoken is a truly democratic fashion. They have
elected their own government and who did they put in power? None other than
Hamas, the terrorist group responsible for the majority of the suicide
attacks against Israel. After seeing how this went in the Palestinian
elections who's to say that the same thing will not happen in any other
Middle Eastern state that has free elections. If they do the same as the
Palestinians and elect either terrorists or fundamentalist Islamic radical
clerics to lead their countries this will be anything but an improvement.
Which prompts the question; how do you like democracy now and does
democratizing every nation in the area still sound like a good idea?

Hawke



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:27:24 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:53:40 -0800, the renowned Sunworshipper
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:33:24 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:44:18 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
So is Bush going to cut aid today?

I hope so! That's what he implied at the press conference.


I don't think there is any direct US aid to the PA. Bush tried to
institute direct aid to the PA (not his worst idea, by any means) but
it got scuppered in Congress except for one year (2003, IIRC). AFAIUI.
US aid to Palestinians is through the UN or otherwise bypasses their
government.

Europe, OTOH, gives much more money than the US total, and directly to
the PA (with some controls on how it is spent).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

TV news said $five hundred million a year to Palestine.

From everyone maybe:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21594.pdf

Confusing read for me, what ever.

Need to get another key board.

Ever tried cleaning between those clear polyester sheets inside the
keyboard? I think there's still a bit of Aussie wine left in mine.
Maybe some IP alcohol will work.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Nope, never braved taking that apart. I cleaned just about everything
else, even got ****ed and used acetone on it. I just knew it wouldn't
like that, now the symbols are faded.

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
First of all - the act of voting does not make a Democratic State. It is
an action within a democracy.

Second of all - the existing party - remember them - the evil ones who
killed
people on trains in the Holland flooded fields, Killed the Sports team,
dumped a man off
the back of a cruse ship in his wheelchair - the real nice people - the
ones -
remember when Arafat came to the Palestine coast - from exile in France -
His men had to machine gun his followers away from the cars. Killing
their
own people. Nice. Then this government starved and kept many in crappy
housing or tents for years. These people were turned into his killers.

That was the good party ? - The people had Bad vs. "screwed by them
before"
Now at least - the people are watching and expecting and know their
power.
Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Seems a lot of people think that now that Hamas has to "make the trains run
on time", they'll grow up. It should be glaringly obvious to even the most
rabid of them, that they are_not_going to push the Israelis into the sea.
After living and working around radical Islamists for a few years, my money
goes to them continuing their present behavior, and worse. You'll never
lose any money betting on just how stupid that particular brand of
fanaticism can make a person. Yeah, I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Garrett Fulton

In fact, notice the current government - the party of Arafat being beat up
by the party members - and the Hamas ones have told their people to stay
home and out of the problem. They don't want a civil war - and are close to it.

So at first - they are being responsible.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



gfulton wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...

First of all - the act of voting does not make a Democratic State. It is
an action within a democracy.

Second of all - the existing party - remember them - the evil ones who
killed
people on trains in the Holland flooded fields, Killed the Sports team,
dumped a man off
the back of a cruse ship in his wheelchair - the real nice people - the
ones -
remember when Arafat came to the Palestine coast - from exile in France -
His men had to machine gun his followers away from the cars. Killing
their
own people. Nice. Then this government starved and kept many in crappy
housing or tents for years. These people were turned into his killers.

That was the good party ? - The people had Bad vs. "screwed by them
before"
Now at least - the people are watching and expecting and know their
power.
Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


Seems a lot of people think that now that Hamas has to "make the trains run
on time", they'll grow up. It should be glaringly obvious to even the most
rabid of them, that they are_not_going to push the Israelis into the sea.
After living and working around radical Islamists for a few years, my money
goes to them continuing their present behavior, and worse. You'll never
lose any money betting on just how stupid that particular brand of
fanaticism can make a person. Yeah, I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Garrett Fulton



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Actually Hamas has had its act together for some time. The bombings are
only a small part of their agenda. For the last 10 years they have been
managing most of the medical delivery system, many charities and a good
number of schools. Corruption is not a problem because if you get caught
you get dead.

Some of the smartest people in Gaza and the West Bank are members of Hamas.
I'm not sure how they intend to play this hand and I doubt they do either.

Anyone remember a movie called "The Candidate" with Robert Redford? He gets
elected against all odds and the last words in the move were "What do I do
now?"

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
In fact, notice the current government - the party of Arafat being beat up
by the party members - and the Hamas ones have told their people to stay
home and out of the problem. They don't want a civil war - and are close
to it.

So at first - they are being responsible.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



gfulton wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...

First of all - the act of voting does not make a Democratic State. It
is
an action within a democracy.

Second of all - the existing party - remember them - the evil ones who
killed
people on trains in the Holland flooded fields, Killed the Sports team,
dumped a man off
the back of a cruse ship in his wheelchair - the real nice people - the
ones -
remember when Arafat came to the Palestine coast - from exile in France -
His men had to machine gun his followers away from the cars. Killing
their
own people. Nice. Then this government starved and kept many in crappy
housing or tents for years. These people were turned into his killers.

That was the good party ? - The people had Bad vs. "screwed by them
before"
Now at least - the people are watching and expecting and know their
power.
Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


Seems a lot of people think that now that Hamas has to "make the trains
run on time", they'll grow up. It should be glaringly obvious to even the
most rabid of them, that they are_not_going to push the Israelis into
the sea. After living and working around radical Islamists for a few
years, my money goes to them continuing their present behavior, and
worse. You'll never lose any money betting on just how stupid that
particular brand of fanaticism can make a person. Yeah, I hope I'm
wrong, but I doubt it.

Garrett Fulton

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:2EXCf.14102$Dh.1883@dukeread04...
Actually Hamas has had its act together for some time. The bombings are
only a small part of their agenda. For the last 10 years they have been
managing most of the medical delivery system, many charities and a good
number of schools. Corruption is not a problem because if you get caught
you get dead.

Some of the smartest people in Gaza and the West Bank are members of
Hamas. I'm not sure how they intend to play this hand and I doubt they do
either.

Anyone remember a movie called "The Candidate" with Robert Redford? He
gets elected against all odds and the last words in the move were "What do
I do now?"

--
Glenn Ashmore



Exactly. On the news someone was commenting that prior to the election a
couple of the Hamas candidates said they wanted a *minority* number of
seats. That way they could be a factor without being responsible for any
lack of progress. Now that they control the show it's going to be really
tough to complain about lack of jobs, lack of services, poverty, Israel,
etc. and how it is Fatah's fault.

Steve.

"SteveF" wrote in message
.. .

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:2EXCf.14102$Dh.1883@dukeread04...
Actually Hamas has had its act together for some time. The bombings are
only a small part of their agenda. For the last 10 years they have been
managing most of the medical delivery system, many charities and a good
number of schools. Corruption is not a problem because if you get caught
you get dead.

Some of the smartest people in Gaza and the West Bank are members of
Hamas. I'm not sure how they intend to play this hand and I doubt they do
either.

Anyone remember a movie called "The Candidate" with Robert Redford? He
gets elected against all odds and the last words in the move were "What
do I do now?"

--
Glenn Ashmore



Exactly. On the news someone was commenting that prior to the election a
couple of the Hamas candidates said they wanted a *minority* number of
seats. That way they could be a factor without being responsible for any
lack of progress. Now that they control the show it's going to be really
tough to complain about lack of jobs, lack of services, poverty, Israel,
etc. and how it is Fatah's fault.

Steve.



Hope you're all right about this. I did read somewhere that the destruction
of Israel was in the Hamas charter, however. Anyhow, money talks and B.S.
walks. And it looks like there's a lot of money walking away from Hamas
right now. From the U.S. and hopefully the U.N., until they modify their
positions.

Garrett Fulton

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

on Arafats' crew :
the evil ones who killed
people on trains in the Holland flooded fields,

snip

?

Are you talking about the train hijack at Beilen,
Netherlands, december 1975?
These were South Moluccans (part of Indonesia, helped
the Dutch in the struggle for indonesean independance,
ostracised & persecuted by Indonesia, brought to holland,
left to rot in camps, hijackers were dreaming of their own
"Independant South Moluccan Republic")


Hans

--




This is a non-profit organization;
we didn't plan it that way, but it is

=====================================


(remove uppercase trap, and double the number to reply)