I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?


Thanks,
Alex

BTW The steel piece I was drilling was firmly clamped at both ends to the table.
Drill bit was a jobber length.


Alex wrote:
I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout.
Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is
saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while measuring
runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move
spindle up/down

BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see
that when drill bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular.
After the hole is through it looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it
suppose to be like that or it's because of runout?


Thanks,
Alex

Alex wrote:
I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

To me "runout" implies a cyclical error, which typically would be
measured with no loading force. Though I'd do it with the machine off.

Play, or spindle deflection under load is not perhaps something you
want to suffer, but I would think of it as a different measurement.

Compared to a milling machine, a drill press is not massive, rigid, or
equipped to take side loads - and the same issues (except for mass)
apply to a drill chuck as compared to a collet mounted or taper shank
drill. Of course a lot of cheap drill presses and chucks may be worse
than a more carefully made machine of the same basic design.

If you want to drill holes easily, use a drillpress. If you want to
make nice holes, use a milling machine with a center drill in a collet,
an undersized drill (or sequence of them), and then a reamer in a
collet.

Alex wrote:
I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout.
Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is
saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while measuring
runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move
spindle up/down

BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see
that when drill bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular.
After the hole is through it looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it
suppose to be like that or it's because of runout?


Thanks,
Alex
He's right you shouldn't rock it to measure runout, and .002 for a drill
press is not bad. But .030 free play, or slop as we call it, sucks and
is not acceptable in my opinion. When you measure runout you are really
checking how concentric the chuck and/or chuck mount diameters are to
the spindle diameters that the bearing inner races are pushed onto. It's
possible you have bad bearings or the bearing could have a sloppy fit
between the bearing inner races and the spindle, or between the bearing
outer races and the quill. More likely it is caused by a sloppy fit
between the quill and the head casting. When you move it try to see its
sloppy between the spindle and quill or between the quill and head
casting. Sometimes just snugging up the quill lock a little where it can
still slide freely is enough. Other times some people over extend the
quill with the travel limit nuts adjusted that way. In this case it is
always more rigid and less sloppy to move spindle all the way up and
raise the table to move the part closer to the drill.

Alex wrote:

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout.
Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is
saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while measuring
runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

They are correct. You aren't returning the machine because of runout, you are
returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. Get your money back, and
next time read http://www.tinyisland.com/htbdrillp.txt before buying one, and
don't buy an import DP without inspecting it in person.

GWE

Grant,

you wrote an excellent article.
As for import DP it looks to me that you won't get anything with 0.001 runout for less
than $400-500 and even that number is very optimistic.

Alex


Grant Erwin wrote:
Alex wrote:

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030
runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty
guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while
measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while
drill runs on lowest speed with no load.


They are correct. You aren't returning the machine because of runout,
you are returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. Get your
money back, and next time read http://www.tinyisland.com/htbdrillp.txt
before buying one, and don't buy an import DP without inspecting it in
person.

GWE

You don't need anything like .001" runout on a drill press. Stop thinking of a
drill press as a precision tool - it ISN'T. Yet my old Jet 17MF had .001"
runout on it's internal spindle taper, and with a good quality Jacobs chuck it
was about as good as a cheap DP gets. I've also seen other imports that had
little runout. It's important to realize that before I found my Jet I looked at
about 15 used drill presses, bringing my dial test indicator and mag base. Most
of the sellers didn't even know that their chuck popped out of the spindle.

If you are stuck on accuracy go find $1000 and buy a good used mill drill (less
if you get real lucky). Or go all the way to a knee mill.

GWE

Alex wrote:
Grant,

you wrote an excellent article.
As for import DP it looks to me that you won't get anything with 0.001
runout for less than $400-500 and even that number is very optimistic.

Alex


Grant Erwin wrote:

Alex wrote:

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030
runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty
guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while
measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while
drill runs on lowest speed with no load.



They are correct. You aren't returning the machine because of runout,
you are returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. Get
your money back, and next time read
http://www.tinyisland.com/htbdrillp.txt before buying one, and don't
buy an import DP without inspecting it in person.

GWE

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:05:54 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Alex wrote:

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout.
Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is
saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while measuring
runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

They are correct. You aren't returning the machine because of runout, you are
returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. Get your money back, and
next time read http://www.tinyisland.com/htbdrillp.txt before buying one, and
don't buy an import DP without inspecting it in person.

GWE

Grant is dead nuts correct.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

According to Alex :
I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

What you are measuring is quill slop, not runout. The runout is
your no-load measurement. But -- that amount of slop in the quill is
fairly common on import drill presses -- unless you are *very* lucky.

Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

That only controls slop in one direction -- you need another
setscrew to control it at right angles to the current support. And I'm
not sure whether tightening a setscrew against the side (or front) of
the quill, without something to spread the load, is that good an idea
anyway.

Note that old drill presses often were split with a clamping
screw to close the split. This was normally used to hold the quill
extended while you did something -- but could also be used to take up
the slop in the quill to headstock interface.

BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?

That slop allows the drill to play like the ones which drill
square holes, except that the square holes ones have three flutes, and a
two-flute one would drill a triangular hole.

The work-around for that is to use a 3/8" center drill to start
the hole. It will start better in the center punch hole, and if you
take it down to the point where it is at the full 3/8" diameter, and
perhaps 1/8" deep at the full diameter, that will guide the drill bit so
it will do a better job.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:22:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

According to Alex :
I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

What you are measuring is quill slop, not runout. The runout is
your no-load measurement. But -- that amount of slop in the quill is
fairly common on import drill presses -- unless you are *very* lucky.

Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

That only controls slop in one direction -- you need another
setscrew to control it at right angles to the current support. And I'm
not sure whether tightening a setscrew against the side (or front) of
the quill, without something to spread the load, is that good an idea
anyway.

Note that old drill presses often were split with a clamping
screw to close the split. This was normally used to hold the quill
extended while you did something -- but could also be used to take up
the slop in the quill to headstock interface.

BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?

That slop allows the drill to play like the ones which drill
square holes, except that the square holes ones have three flutes, and a
two-flute one would drill a triangular hole.

The work-around for that is to use a 3/8" center drill to start
the hole. It will start better in the center punch hole, and if you
take it down to the point where it is at the full 3/8" diameter, and
perhaps 1/8" deep at the full diameter, that will guide the drill bit so
it will do a better job.

Good Luck,
DoN.
Depending on the casting design of the head..Ive had fair luck with
drilling 3 holes in the head casting, tapping them, and then inserting
a sliding fit bronze plug, followed by a setscrew in each hole. Some
drill presses have something similar from the factory. A rather well
made Taiwanese drill press I own has two off set holes with bronze
plugs and screws, acessable by removing the sheet metal data plate on
the front of the head.

Ive done a couple worn Deltas this way over the years. While not
perfect..made them pretty usable.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Thanx, Grant for posting the URL to your excellent article on drill presses!
This time I book-marked it. Your articles on 4 x 6 saws and drill presses
are the best I've ever seen on the subjects. The information contained in
them is in the "must know" catagory for anyone seeking to tool up a basic
shop.

Bob Swinney

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Alex wrote:

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move
chuck with your hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout.
Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is
saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck while measuring
runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs on
lowest speed with no load.

They are correct. You aren't returning the machine because of runout, you
are returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. Get your money
back, and next time read http://www.tinyisland.com/htbdrillp.txt before
buying one, and don't buy an import DP without inspecting it in person.

GWE

In article , Grant Erwin says...

...You aren't returning the machine because of runout, you are
returning the machine for excessive slop in the quill. ...

:^)

The voice of reason, finally!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner,

is "sliding fit bronze plug" is just a bronze cylinder or something special?

Alex

Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:22:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:


According to Alex :

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

What you are measuring is quill slop, not runout. The runout is
your no-load measurement. But -- that amount of slop in the quill is
fairly common on import drill presses -- unless you are *very* lucky.


Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

That only controls slop in one direction -- you need another
setscrew to control it at right angles to the current support. And I'm
not sure whether tightening a setscrew against the side (or front) of
the quill, without something to spread the load, is that good an idea
anyway.

Note that old drill presses often were split with a clamping
screw to close the split. This was normally used to hold the quill
extended while you did something -- but could also be used to take up
the slop in the quill to headstock interface.


BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?

That slop allows the drill to play like the ones which drill
square holes, except that the square holes ones have three flutes, and a
two-flute one would drill a triangular hole.

The work-around for that is to use a 3/8" center drill to start
the hole. It will start better in the center punch hole, and if you
take it down to the point where it is at the full 3/8" diameter, and
perhaps 1/8" deep at the full diameter, that will guide the drill bit so
it will do a better job.

Good Luck,
DoN.

Depending on the casting design of the head..Ive had fair luck with
drilling 3 holes in the head casting, tapping them, and then inserting
a sliding fit bronze plug, followed by a setscrew in each hole. Some
drill presses have something similar from the factory. A rather well
made Taiwanese drill press I own has two off set holes with bronze
plugs and screws, acessable by removing the sheet metal data plate on
the front of the head.

Ive done a couple worn Deltas this way over the years. While not
perfect..made them pretty usable.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Where are these set crews positioned?

Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:22:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:


According to Alex :

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

What you are measuring is quill slop, not runout. The runout is
your no-load measurement. But -- that amount of slop in the quill is
fairly common on import drill presses -- unless you are *very* lucky.


Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

That only controls slop in one direction -- you need another
setscrew to control it at right angles to the current support. And I'm
not sure whether tightening a setscrew against the side (or front) of
the quill, without something to spread the load, is that good an idea
anyway.

Note that old drill presses often were split with a clamping
screw to close the split. This was normally used to hold the quill
extended while you did something -- but could also be used to take up
the slop in the quill to headstock interface.


BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?

That slop allows the drill to play like the ones which drill
square holes, except that the square holes ones have three flutes, and a
two-flute one would drill a triangular hole.

The work-around for that is to use a 3/8" center drill to start
the hole. It will start better in the center punch hole, and if you
take it down to the point where it is at the full 3/8" diameter, and
perhaps 1/8" deep at the full diameter, that will guide the drill bit so
it will do a better job.

Good Luck,
DoN.

Depending on the casting design of the head..Ive had fair luck with
drilling 3 holes in the head casting, tapping them, and then inserting
a sliding fit bronze plug, followed by a setscrew in each hole. Some
drill presses have something similar from the factory. A rather well
made Taiwanese drill press I own has two off set holes with bronze
plugs and screws, acessable by removing the sheet metal data plate on
the front of the head.

Ive done a couple worn Deltas this way over the years. While not
perfect..made them pretty usable.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:05:20 GMT, Alex wrote:

Gunner,

is "sliding fit bronze plug" is just a bronze cylinder or something special?

Alex

Just stick it in the hole..so it doesnt bind up. G

Keep in mind..it may mushroom a smidge over years..so too fat and yu
will never get it out.

Gunner


Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:22:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:


According to Alex :

I have a quill play in my Frox Shop 17" drill press.
When rotating with no load the runout is just 0.002" but if you move chuck with your
hands back and forth test indicator shows 0.030 runout. Woodstock Int. (manufacturer of
all Fox Shop tools) warranty guy is saying that I am not suppose to try to move chuck
while measuring runout. "The right way" to measure runout is to do it while drill runs
on lowest speed with no load.

What you are measuring is quill slop, not runout. The runout is
your no-load measurement. But -- that amount of slop in the quill is
fairly common on import drill presses -- unless you are *very* lucky.


Quill set screw is already tighten to the point when I can hardly move spindle up/down

That only controls slop in one direction -- you need another
setscrew to control it at right angles to the current support. And I'm
not sure whether tightening a setscrew against the side (or front) of
the quill, without something to spread the load, is that good an idea
anyway.

Note that old drill presses often were split with a clamping
screw to close the split. This was normally used to hold the quill
extended while you did something -- but could also be used to take up
the slop in the quill to headstock interface.


BTW I just tied to drill 3/8 hole in 1/4 thick mild steel and can see that when drill
bit is half way through "hole" is somewhat triangular. After the hole is through it
looks pretty round with rough walls. Is it suppose to be like that or it's because of
runout?

That slop allows the drill to play like the ones which drill
square holes, except that the square holes ones have three flutes, and a
two-flute one would drill a triangular hole.

The work-around for that is to use a 3/8" center drill to start
the hole. It will start better in the center punch hole, and if you
take it down to the point where it is at the full 3/8" diameter, and
perhaps 1/8" deep at the full diameter, that will guide the drill bit so
it will do a better job.

Good Luck,
DoN.

Depending on the casting design of the head..Ive had fair luck with
drilling 3 holes in the head casting, tapping them, and then inserting
a sliding fit bronze plug, followed by a setscrew in each hole. Some
drill presses have something similar from the factory. A rather well
made Taiwanese drill press I own has two off set holes with bronze
plugs and screws, acessable by removing the sheet metal data plate on
the front of the head.

Ive done a couple worn Deltas this way over the years. While not
perfect..made them pretty usable.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin