I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

I used to watch the pipefitters at Todd Shipyards in Seattle bend coils
in steam pipes used to heat crude oil in the bottoms of tankers so it could
be pumped out. They did it at red heat over a mandrel in a gigantic lathe
and the pipe was fed through a holding device geared to the leadscrew so
they got the desired spiral pitch.

There is a concept in physics called "entropy". If when you spiralled a piece
of steel by hand, it naturally spirals equally along its whole length, this
would be IMHO a violation of the laws of entropy. That's like saying if you
chisel a line will it be straight.

Small bits of square stock are inexpensive. You can try your vise/wrench idea
for yourself. I think you'll become frustrated, however.

Grant Erwin

SteveB wrote:

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

Grant Erwin wrote: used to heat crude oil in the bottoms of tankers so it
could be pumped out.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
What you are describing, Grant, is a way of making helical coils. What I
think Steve is looking for is twisted square stock, like that used as
pickets in wrought iron railings. I have done lots of this, and it is
pretty easy. You hold one end from rotating, in a vise, say, and twist the
other end with a large wrench. A large double-handles tap wrench is best,
because it balances the forces, so the metal stay straight. You need to slip
a piece of water pipe over the square stock to keep it straight. If you
need to twist only a section of a longer piece, let the material stick out
the other side of the vise, and past your wrench.

I have also done it with an electric pipe threading machine. You weld a
short square section at one end of your pipe, to apply torque to your square
stock. You clamp the piece of pipe with the square end away from the
rotating chuck. If you turn on the threader, the pipe and the square stock
turn together. If you put a wrench on the stock where it comes out of the
pipe and the chuck, you have the far end turning and the near end stopped,
so you will make your spiral.

Yes, they come out uniform.

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve


Most people doing this do it with the aid of heat. You'll get the twist only
where you heat it.

John Martin

SteveB wrote...
I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent?

You've got the right idea. A blacksmith does this with a two-handled
wrench made for the purpose. A one-handled wrench, like a crescent
wrench, doesn't work as well because the side forces can't be avoided. If
you can't find or fashion a wrench with two handles, I suppose you could
try two crescent wrenches, but I don't know how difficult it would be to
keep them both on the work at the same time.

How do I keep the whole thing straight, or do I straighten it later?

You can keep it fairly straight if you use a wrench as described above,
but a little straightening is usually needed after also.

I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

No problem. It's commonly done this way.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Not without care. By controlling the workpiece temperature carefully, in
particular making certain that the portion to be twisted is uniformly
heated, and by completing the turns quickly before the temperature
gradient becomes too pronounced, you can achieve a remarkable degree of
uniformity. With practice. (G) When the workpiece is much hotter in the
center, then the center of the twist will be tighter.

Check on www.anvilfire.com for better information. Tell them Jim der
junger sent you.

Cheers!

Jim

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:01:02 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


^^^^^^^^^^^^
What you are describing, Grant, is a way of making helical coils. What I
think Steve is looking for is twisted square stock, like that used as
pickets in wrought iron railings. I have done lots of this, and it is
pretty easy. You hold one end from rotating, in a vise, say, and twist the
other end with a large wrench. A large double-handles tap wrench is best,
because it balances the forces, so the metal stay straight. You need to slip
a piece of water pipe over the square stock to keep it straight. If you
need to twist only a section of a longer piece, let the material stick out
the other side of the vise, and past your wrench.

I have also done it with an electric pipe threading machine. You weld a
short square section at one end of your pipe, to apply torque to your square
stock. You clamp the piece of pipe with the square end away from the
rotating chuck. If you turn on the threader, the pipe and the square stock
turn together. If you put a wrench on the stock where it comes out of the
pipe and the chuck, you have the far end turning and the near end stopped,
so you will make your spiral.

Yes, they come out uniform.



I have to second what Mr. Lichtman said.

I twisted a bunch of 1/2" square stock a while ago.
They were 18" long, both ends, 6" each were untouched, with the middle
6 inches with 3 twists.
I put 6 inches in a vise, put a 6" 3/4" pipe as a spacer, butt up
against the vise, and used a big f!@k off tap handle up against the
pipe spacer.
I used no heat...I was amazed how easily the stock twisted.
The twists were perfectly uniform.
I think if heat in the form of a rosebud was used, the end product
would have irregular twists. You would need a furnace or something of
the like to heat the piece uniformly.

FWIW, Jay

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:hkIHb.41662$BQ5.11749@fed1read03...
I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8"
dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight,
or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally
along
the length?

Steve


My kids and I do this all the time (decorative twists in 3/8" sq. steel,
that is).

Always done cold, because heating is unnecessary and too difficult to do
evenly.

Can be done with a shifter, but its difficult to keep it straight and
aligned (especially for 13 y.o. kids). I made a T-shaped jig, with a long
crossbar-style handle and a pipe section that fits neatly over the area to
be twisted. The rest (under the twist) is held in the vice.

Piece of cake. Dead easy. Perfectly uniform, too. Resist the temptation to
twist too many turns. A couple will do.

If you (subsequently) want to twist the *whole* length, there is no way on
God's earth you will get it even. Do all the twisting you want in one go,
not in sections, unless irregularity in the twist doesn't matter.

Jeff

Years ago, I met a Mr. Brown in Greenfield, MA. He was demonstrating his just
completed pnuematic "bar winder". I have wished several times I had paid better
attention to its design. When he hit "Go" a slide went down the bar and formed
it (twisted it) VERY quickly. Very uniformly, as well. I'm afraid he's joined
the list of lost resources by now.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

A.Gent wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message
news:hkIHb.41662$BQ5.11749@fed1read03...

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8"

dimension.

What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight,

SteveB wrote:

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

I would think that you could do a reasonably good job by chucking the rod at
both ends in a lathe within a pipe to maintain straightness and hand crank or
use your back gearing to twist. This is just an untried suggestion.

C

Carl wrote: (clip)chucking the rod at both ends in a lathe within a pipe to
maintain straightness and hand crank or use your back gearing to twist
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That comes very close to the method I described in an earlier post, using a
pipe-threading machine, and I expect it would work perfctly well. I imagine
that your lathe, with its gearing, has easily as much torque as my pipe
threader did.

Two vicegrips. I prefer a forge.
Karl
"Jim Wilson" wrote in message
k.net...
SteveB wrote...
I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8"
dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise
and
twist the other with a crescent?

You've got the right idea. A blacksmith does this with a two-handled
wrench made for the purpose. A one-handled wrench, like a crescent
wrench, doesn't work as well because the side forces can't be avoided. If
you can't find or fashion a wrench with two handles, I suppose you could
try two crescent wrenches, but I don't know how difficult it would be to
keep them both on the work at the same time.

How do I keep the whole thing straight, or do I straighten it later?

You can keep it fairly straight if you use a wrench as described above,
but a little straightening is usually needed after also.

I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

No problem. It's commonly done this way.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally
along
the length?

Not without care. By controlling the workpiece temperature carefully, in
particular making certain that the portion to be twisted is uniformly
heated, and by completing the turns quickly before the temperature
gradient becomes too pronounced, you can achieve a remarkable degree of
uniformity. With practice. (G) When the workpiece is much hotter in the
center, then the center of the twist will be tighter.

Check on www.anvilfire.com for better information. Tell them Jim der
junger sent you.

Cheers!

Jim

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Carl wrote: (clip)chucking the rod at both ends in a lathe within a pipe to
maintain straightness and hand crank or use your back gearing to twist
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That comes very close to the method I described in an earlier post, using a
pipe-threading machine, and I expect it would work perfctly well. I imagine
that your lathe, with its gearing, has easily as much torque as my pipe
threader did.

Yes exactly Leo. Sorry, I hadn't read all the posts. The available torque from
the 5 hp that I have is scary.

C

Carl wrote:

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Carl wrote: (clip)chucking the rod at both ends in a lathe within a pipe to
maintain straightness and hand crank or use your back gearing to twist
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That comes very close to the method I described in an earlier post, using a
pipe-threading machine, and I expect it would work perfctly well. I imagine
that your lathe, with its gearing, has easily as much torque as my pipe
threader did.

Yes exactly Leo. Sorry, I hadn't read all the posts. The available torque from
the 5 hp that I have is scary.

C

Come to think of it I suppose the torque available from any lathe with the same hp
and gearing would be the same. (0:

C

Read the other posts but the key to keeping it straight is to
keep in under tension. When you twist the stock, it will tend to
shorten up. If you keep it the same length, it will be arrow
straight.

For a short run you could clamp one end in a vice, slide a peice
of pipe the same length as your required twisted section, slip on
a washer or two to get a tight fit on the bar, then twist it with
large tap holder. You might need to have an auxilary clamp
(Vice Grip or two) to keep the bar from sliding. 3/8" hot rolled
is pretty soft, you can twist it easily.

SteveB wrote:

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

"Carl" wrote in message
...


SteveB wrote:

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8"
dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise
and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing
straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer
piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally
along
the length?

Steve

I would think that you could do a reasonably good job by chucking the rod
at
both ends in a lathe within a pipe to maintain straightness and hand crank
or
use your back gearing to twist. This is just an untried suggestion.

C


Sounds like a good idea. What is a "lathe?"

Just kidding. I don't have a lathe or any machining experience.

Steve

A friend of mine had to twist 20 foot lengths of 1/2" square. He used
his small farm tractor. He made a "chuck" that fitted his PTO shaft.
He clamped the 20 foot length of square bar to the chuck and slid an
(almost) 20 foot section of half inch water pipe over the bar and
clamped the other end of the bar to a post 20 feet away. He mounted a
veeder-root counter on the back of the tractor so he could count
revolutions of the PTO shaft. He fired up the tractor and, at an idle,
gently engaged the PTO, letting it run until he had the required
number of turns.

Done cold, you are assured of equally spaced twists (just don't
start-stop). Done hot (as we blacksmiths often do it) you get a tight
twist where it's hottest and less twist where it is cooler. This
usually means that where the ends are suppported, they cool quicker and
twist less. Part of our training is in teaching how to correct for
these problems. One advantage of hot twisting is that one can make
good looking tighter twists with heat.

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------
SteveB wrote:

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

A good many years ago I saw the set up a guy used for his " Wrought "
iron fence business. He used a small electric motor ( about 1/3 hp )
which drove a worm gear reducer. The output of the reducer drove a
manual auto transmission. The square stock was dropped into a square
three sided socket on both ends, the switch turned on, turns counted
and switch turned off. They came out straight and with a uniform
spiral.

Dan




"SteveB" wrote in message news:hkIHb.41662$BQ5.11749@fed1read03...
I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8" dimension.
What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing straight, or
do I straighten it later? I want to spiral sections along a longer piece
rather than spiral the whole length.

And when I do want to spiral the whole length, will it spiral equally along
the length?

Steve

Did a google search on "twisting+square+bar"
Got some good ideas.


"Ron Moore" wrote in message
...
Years ago, I met a Mr. Brown in Greenfield, MA. He was demonstrating his
just
completed pnuematic "bar winder". I have wished several times I had paid
better
attention to its design. When he hit "Go" a slide went down the bar and
formed
it (twisted it) VERY quickly. Very uniformly, as well. I'm afraid he's
joined
the list of lost resources by now.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

A.Gent wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message
news:hkIHb.41662$BQ5.11749@fed1read03...

I want to spiral some small square stock. Probably 1/4" and 3/8"

dimension.

What is the easiest practical way to do this? Hold one end in a vise
and
twist the other with a crescent? How do I keep the whole thing
straight,

Leo wrote: That comes very close to the method I described in an earlier
post, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Carl wrote: Yes exactly Leo. Sorry, I hadn't read all the posts (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
And Leo responds: Carl, I wasn't accusing you of "trespassing." I only
wanted to verify that your method would work.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Leo wrote: That comes very close to the method I described in an earlier
post, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Carl wrote: Yes exactly Leo. Sorry, I hadn't read all the posts (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
And Leo responds: Carl, I wasn't accusing you of "trespassing." I only
wanted to verify that your method would work.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

No No Leo, not at all, I didn't take it that way. I had never done what I had
suggested and was only to happy to hear someone else confirm the method. Thank
you.
I might also mention that I was quite impressed by a subsequent post that
stated that all that was needed to keep the work straight was to keep tension
on it and it sure makes sense. So if you can tension the work then there is no
need to use a pipe (as I suggested) to keep the work straight. All of which is
born out by observing a pair of wires being tightened tourniquet fashion.
(straight as a poker)

Bill

Bill wrote:

I might also mention that I was quite impressed by a subsequent post that
stated that all that was needed to keep the work straight was to keep tension
on it and it sure makes sense. So if you can tension the work then there is no
need to use a pipe (as I suggested) to keep the work straight. All of which is
born out by observing a pair of wires being tightened tourniquet fashion.
(straight as a poker)

This exactly how safety wire pliers work. The two wires are gripped,
the pliers locked and the knob pulled. The knob is on a spiral rod so
that both tension and torque are applied.

Ted