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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Submariner wrote:
Speak condescendingly to them, like their minister does every Sunday. Oh,yeah! Check out Joyce Meyers, the multimillionaire high priestess of "abuse theology" (my newly coined term). She shouts verbal abuse at the women (mostly) in her audience. I can't even stand to listen to her services anymore. I started to figure this stuff out about 4-5 years ago, when in a different evangelical church in St. Louis, yet another of the women in the congregation told her horrible story of abuse. Then, the PASTOR'S WIFE got up and told another story of mental/verbal abuse. I was shocked, and then realized that practically the ONLY person in the congregation that hadn't told of some level of family abuse was ME! Hmm, I know abuse is well hidden and more prevalent than most people think, but this congregation was practically 100% abused! What the HELL is going on here? Ahh, this kind of church must DRAW these abused souls in! YES, of COURSE, that's it! Then, the next thing that clicked was a televised Joyce Myers service, when she started SCREAMING at the audience. She was screaming at these people about how WEAK, incapable, illogical, unable, helpless, defeated, ........ they were without Jesus. And, I realized that this whole evangelical (sub)movement was actually MORE abuse! Yes, these people are drawn in to get MORE of the same abuse they suffered when kids! Without Jesus, you can't do ANYTHING. So, my wife does NOTHING but pray. I swear, sometimes, I worry that if the house were to catch fire, she'd sit in the middle of the flames instead of getting herself and the kids out! But, she gets wound tighter and tighter, because the praying does nothing to change the situation, even though she lies to herself and everyone else that "yes, things are getting better every day". But, of course, it is a lie, and she knows it. People she prays for die, or continue being debilitated by horrible disease. Etc. I, on the other hand, fix stuff with my own hands, and maybe these things need to be fixed a few times before I get the magic formula just right, but they do get fixed, and I move on to the next thing. Don't get me started! Oops, somebody DID get me started. Jon |
#2
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Adam Smith wrote:
Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. My friend did finally move on from it (though not when I knew her), so perhaps there is some hope. She's going to bible school for 9 months 1000 miles away from here. That puts a bit of a strain on a marriage, too. I am hoping that they "lift the curtain" for her a bit during all this, and she realizes that it is all a big scam. Maybe this hook-up with Monavie is starting to raise some doubts in her mind. The whole church down there is pushing this stuff real hard. As far as I can tell, it is just the next MLM scam, and the literature they are using is full of claims that will have the FDA jumping all over them as soon as they get wind of it. They have these cleverly made up with no mention of the Monavie outfit, so they will claim it is not THEY who are making the medical claims, but the FDA won't fall for that line, they've seen it all before. They are selling 750 ml of berry juice for $30+! None of these people would spend $30 for a bottle of wine more than once every 5-10 years. But, they are gobbling up CASES of the stuff. My wife just got snookered into placing an $1100 order. Jon |
#3
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 00:05:36 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Ask her why God hates amputees, then have her read this: http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm -- -JN- |
#4
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
That sounds like a cult not main stream evangelicals. I hope she gets
away from it. |
#5
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:37:53 +0100, J. Nielsen
wrote: On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 00:05:36 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Ask her why God hates amputees, then have her read this: http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm And check on this: [ Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend homosexuality, for example, I will simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws in Leviticus and Exodus and how to best follow them. To wit: When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Canadians, but not Mexicans. Can you clarify? I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Sincerely, A devoted listener ] -- Cliff |
#6
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
J. Nielsen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 00:05:36 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Ask her why God hates amputees, then have her read this: http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm An interesting read. Of course, they make no mention of the real reason Jeanna Giesse lived, which was that doctors, in deperation, tried a treatment that had never been tried before. She is not the first perdon to survive rabies, but at least the second. She had a much easier time of it that the first recorded case. But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. This is not the ordinary closed mind that you run into on occasion. This is a mind closed tighter than the vault at the local bank, a person who will actually tell you to your face that she will not listen to you because you are preaching satan's message (or some similar comeback). When you get down to it, she will tell you that she believes what she wants to believe, and will not accept what she sees with her own eyes. Literally, this woman drives a van full of kids using "the force" a la star wars! You can't see out the damn windows unless I clean them! (Needless to say, her van looks like it has been put through the crusher, but the crusher maybe had a slight hydraulic leak and couldn't completely flatten it. A few months ago I was razzing her that there wasn't a square foot of the van that was not dented, scraped or crumpled. She said I was exaggerating, so we went out and looked at it, and she had quite a bit of trouble finding so much as a square foot that didn't have something wrong with it. A few weeks ago, in broad daylight, she drive the DRIVER'S SIDE door into a lamppost in a parking lot, knocking off the mirror and door handle, and caving in the door. I could understand bashing the RIGHT side door, but the left side is only INCHES from her nose! How could she NOT SEE that huge lamp post? Because she is so inside her own head, she can't see large objects approaching from just a foot away. So, she would find fault with about a dozen premises in the link you provided. Of course, the most important one is the premise that God doesn't regrow limbs. She will tell you she has not only seen limbs regrown, but has participated in DOING IT HERSELF! Of course, if you beat on this for half an hour, you will eventually pare it down and find out it was the parlour trick of "growing out" a short leg. You have somebody sit down, and lift up their feet and pull them out horizontal. Unless the person is sitting perfecly straight, you will be holding their feet slightly to one side, and it will appear one leg is shorter. You do some hocus-pocus, lots of praying in tongues and laying on of hands, and somebody pulls the "shorter" leg, causing the person's hips to rotate a little, and suddently, their legs "are the same length"! An appallingly simple and stupid parlour trick, but it convinces people with weak minds that these other people are bringing God's mercy down to heal the "sick". I could go on, and on, with this. But, it is all a sort of hypnosis, to get the neophyte to split from reality. They are literally making these people psychotic, at least in some ways. If a plane crashes, and 119 die, but one survives, that IS TOTAL PROOF that God saved that one person! (What about the 119? They must have been terrible sinners, I suppose!) To finish : I mean, you just can't TALK to someone who will tell you in all sincerity that she sat on the couch for a couple hours in the middle of the night talking to Jesus! Jon Jon |
#7
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
G.W. wrote:
That sounds like a cult not main stream evangelicals. I hope she gets away from it. Ho ho ho! She's going to school to BECOME ONE OF THEM! Cult? You better believe it, they are a cult! But, who is main stream, any more? Check out Joyce Myers, or Benny Hinn! He claims to have brought many dead back to life! It is quite a spectacle - they wheel the crippled up on stage in their wheelchairs, Pastor Hinn lays hands on them for a minute, and they jump out of the wheelchair and whoop in exultation of their miraculous healing. Then, they sit back in the wheelchair, and are wheeled off the stage. Huh? HUH? What the HELL? If somebody healed me of a severe infirmity, it would take 5 gorillas to put ME back in that wheelchair! NO WAAY would I sit back down in that thing! (So, obviously, these are people who are infirm, and have difficulty walking, but with a little help, they can get up and walk around a bit.) It is no big deal for them to sit back in the chair again. But, if you check into this stuff, this is not one guy off in some wierd little church with 15 members. Check out the Smithton Outpouring (now moved to Kansas City, whre there is a lot more money), the Toronto Airport Church, Revival Minstries in Tampa, and there are more, many more, in this realm. These far-out evangelists have taken over, and appear to still be growing. Jon |
#8
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. Direct her to a better church: http://landoverbaptist.org/ -- Cliff |
#9
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: she will not listen to you because you are preaching satan's message Learn the language .... http://richardgingras.com/devilsdictionary/ -- Cliff |
#10
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Jon Elson wrote:
G.W. wrote: That sounds like a cult not main stream evangelicals. I hope she gets away from it. Ho ho ho! She's going to school to BECOME ONE OF THEM! Cult? You better believe it, they are a cult! But, who is main stream, any more? Check out Joyce Myers, or Benny Hinn! He claims to have brought many dead back to life! It is quite a spectacle - they wheel the crippled up on stage in their wheelchairs, Pastor Hinn lays hands on them for a minute, and they jump out of the wheelchair and whoop in exultation of their miraculous healing. Then, they sit back in the wheelchair, and are wheeled off the stage. Huh? HUH? What the HELL? If somebody healed me of a severe infirmity, it would take 5 gorillas to put ME back in that wheelchair! NO WAAY would I sit back down in that thing! (So, obviously, these are people who are infirm, and have difficulty walking, but with a little help, they can get up and walk around a bit.) It is no big deal for them to sit back in the chair again. But, if you check into this stuff, this is not one guy off in some wierd little church with 15 members. Check out the Smithton Outpouring (now moved to Kansas City, whre there is a lot more money), the Toronto Airport Church, Revival Minstries in Tampa, and there are more, many more, in this realm. These far-out evangelists have taken over, and appear to still be growing. Jon I agree that your examples are false teachers at best and maybe criminals at worst. Benny Hinn puts on a show and thousands fall for it and he isn't the only one. They not only fool the people that attend their "service" but they turn-off others who can easily see through their baloney. People who are turned-off by it tend to think that this is the way they all are. I wouldn't count these folks anywhere close to main stream. The thousands of local churches across the country that are faithful to God's word is what I would call main stream. Good luck, GW |
#11
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Cliff wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. Direct her to a better church: http://landoverbaptist.org/ If I showed her THAT site, you guys might miss me for a couple of months, until I got out of the hospital! Jon |
#12
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:03:13 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Cliff wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. Direct her to a better church: http://landoverbaptist.org/ If I showed her THAT site, you guys might miss me for a couple of months, until I got out of the hospital! Perhaps she just needs some advice: http://bettybowers.com/newsad.html There seem to be several ministries listed .... Or perhaps a few quick sermons would do the trick: http://www.landoverbaptist.org/60second/ HTH -- Cliff |
#13
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Jon Elson wrote:
Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? Or could it mask a mental illness? Phobias, depression, and panic disorder are pretty common. |
#14
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On 29 Dec 2005 13:46:26 -0800, "Dave" wrote:
Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? On day 1. Or could it mask a mental illness? Phobias, depression, and panic disorder are pretty common. Then they start muttering about "WMDs" ...... http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...pad/1143pe.jpg -- Cliff |
#15
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. Direct her to a better church: http://landoverbaptist.org/ Man! Somebody spent a LOT of time writing all that content! What a riot! To bad I can't show it to my wife, she would be totally offended. I don't need any MORE trouble! Jon |
#16
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Dave wrote:
Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? Or could it mask a mental illness? Phobias, depression, and panic disorder are pretty common. Oh, these groups are PREYING on the people with weak minds! And, they gravitate to this stuff like the proverbial moth to the flame! Jon |
#17
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:06:06 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Cliff wrote: On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:52:11 -0600, Jon Elson wrote: But, my wife has a *** closed*** mind. Direct her to a better church: http://landoverbaptist.org/ Man! Somebody spent a LOT of time writing all that content! What a riot! To bad I can't show it to my wife, she would be totally offended. Probably be good for her by the sound of it. Or you could play the sermons abit on the loud side ... I don't need any MORE trouble! http://members.aol.com/porchnus/sinschat.htm http://twc.sshunet.nl/~djstronk/ircb...s/archive.html -- Cliff |
#18
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Jon Elson wrote:
Dave wrote: Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? Or could it mask a mental illness? Phobias, depression, and panic disorder are pretty common. Oh, these groups are PREYING on the people with weak minds! And, they gravitate to this stuff like the proverbial moth to the flame! Well, I am reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon, where the scientists look through the one-way glass and say something like "We know they are fools, but WHAT KIND?" There is a degree of religious entanglement that is considered fairly normal and then there are the extreme cases... |
#19
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Cliff wrote:
"Dave" wrote: Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? On day 1. But they are a vast majority and they vote. You will be assimilated. OTOH I don't see anything wrong with Deism. |
#20
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
wrote in message
oups.com... Cliff wrote: "Dave" wrote: Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? On day 1. But they are a vast majority and they vote. You will be assimilated. The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. -- Ed Huntress |
#21
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
In article , Ed Huntress says...
The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." Damn Ed, they *paid* for the shrubbie to get elected, why shouldn't they get what they paid for? They give him money and he does what they want, even if means calling out the federal army to force the Dover, PA courts and schools to quit being treasonous and knuckle under! After all, there's a war on. Any sign of dissent from King George's plans should be considered aid and comfort to the enemy. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#22
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Ed Huntress wrote: The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. Absolutely. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." It seems to me that the anti-religion forces have been trying to remove any mention of god from public places for about 40 years or so. They appear to want to change our society to fit their views. Now some people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. -- Ed Huntress |
#23
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
In article .com, Gus says...
people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. Their goal is pure and simple: to teach religion in public schools. Read the court decsion about the Dover, PA case. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#24
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:11:29 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... Cliff wrote: "Dave" wrote: Jon Elson wrote: Adam Smith wrote: Hi Jon, My first serious girlfriend "went evangelical" during the time we were together. Very painful. Eventually it split us up. You have my sympathy. Boy, were you LUCKY! This thing didn't hit her until we were married, and had a 2nd kid on the way. She actually disparaged these far-out evangelists before and shortly after we were married. Hmmmm.... at what point does a religious experience become a mental illness? On day 1. But they are a vast majority and they vote. You will be assimilated. The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. Damn..not a bad post. Get religion or somethin? G Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#25
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
jim rozen wrote: In article .com, Gus says... people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. Their goal is pure and simple: to teach religion in public schools. Read the court decsion about the Dover, PA case. Jim And how does that balance out what the ACLU has been doing for 40 years? |
#26
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On 30 Dec 2005 09:09:36 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Ed Huntress says... The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." Damn Ed, they *paid* for the shrubbie to get elected, why shouldn't they get what they paid for? They give him money and he does what they want, even if means calling out the federal army to force the Dover, PA courts and schools to quit being treasonous and knuckle under! After all, there's a war on. Any sign of dissent from King George's plans should be considered aid and comfort to the enemy. Jim Jim...a large number of Libertairans are atheist or agnostics..and they paid heavily. I kicked in a bit, and Im far from a born againer. Once again, you display MooreOns Syndrome..where you have been conditioned by the Left to kneejerk at the slightest mention of religion, or Bush. I actually feel sorry for you, and if you would like..Id be happy to suggest some deprogrammers. They have done pretty good with Moonies and the like. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#27
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On 30 Dec 2005 09:52:38 -0800, "Gus" wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote: The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. Absolutely. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." It seems to me that the anti-religion forces have been trying to remove any mention of god from public places for about 40 years or so. They appear to want to change our society to fit their views. Now some people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. Indeed..even here in Politically Correct California..I noticed many many more defiant Merry Christmas wishes, than in the past number of years. Folks are just tired of the "war on Christmas" and the war on religion. The Left had best watch their step....the last time they ****ed off the People to this extent..Bush got elected twice..and they lost control of the Congress for the foreseeable future. Gunner This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. -- Ed Huntress "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On 30 Dec 2005 06:56:42 -0800, wrote:
There is a degree of religious entanglement that is considered fairly normal and then there are the extreme cases... Once you deny the fairies you are doomed. http://www.mythome.org/celtic.html -- which are true? "It's a god-eat-god world." -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) "You can't trample infidels when you're a tortoise. I mean, all you could do is give them a meaningful look." -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha, the Chosen One: "Psst!" -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) Most gods find it hard to walk and think at the same time. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) "He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim at." -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) The figures looked more or less human. And they were engaged in religion. You could tell by the knives (it's not murder if you do it for a god). -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) -- Cliff |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:11:29 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. Just getting warmed up again .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition -- Cliff |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
On 30 Dec 2005 09:52:38 -0800, "Gus" wrote:
It seems to me that the anti-religion forces have been trying to remove any mention of god from public places for about 40 years or so. Which specific "god"? -- Cliff |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
In article .com, Gus says...
Their goal is pure and simple: to teach religion in public schools. Read the court decsion about the Dover, PA case. And how does that balance out what the ACLU has been doing for 40 years? News Flash: Relgion is not to be taught in public schools. Never was, never will be. Does it matter if the courts, the constitution, the aclu, or the school board, says it? Which one convinces you? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
In article , Gunner Asch says...
Jim...a large number of Libertairans are atheist or agnostics..and they paid heavily. I kicked in a bit, and Im far from a born againer. Once again, you display MooreOns Syndrome..where you have been conditioned by the Left to kneejerk at the slightest mention of religion, or Bush. Ah, now I understand. The shrubbie has become a libertarian now? How do you, as a card-carrying member, feel about that? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
"Gus" wrote in message
oups.com... Ed Huntress wrote: The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. Absolutely. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." It seems to me that the anti-religion forces have been trying to remove any mention of god from public places for about 40 years or so. Yeah, well, that corresponds roughly to the span of time over which the theocrats have been trying to stick them in. Notice that the big issues, the Ten Commandments in the courthouse and so on, are of pretty recent vintage. Likewise, introducing religion into biology classes. They appear to want to change our society to fit their views. Now some people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. It's a little like racial discrimination, as I see it. We've had a law against discrimination for a very long time, but it's still a task to get some people to live up to the law. Likewise, living up to the Constitution, which says we won't establish religion, is a never-ending battle. FWIW, I happen to believe that the fundamental constitutional principle is that the government will not encourage or promote any religion, or any group of religions. But I don't think it was intended for the government to prevent citizens from expressing their religion in public settings. There was a Supreme Court ruling that drew a fine line between the two, and I think it was a fine decision. In other words, at Christmastime, if the people of a town want a manger and a Christmas display in the town square, I'm all for it. But they'd better also allow any other religious display, at the appropriate religious holidays. -- Ed Huntress |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
... snip The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. It isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last. Damn..not a bad post. Get religion or somethin? G Gunner g I'm where I've always been on that. I try to respect others' religious views. If they push me, I push back. Otherwise, I don't pre-judge, nor would I try to suppress religious expression. We have some problem now with people promoting violence in the name of religion. And a little non-violent trouble with people trying to push their religious beliefs into government. But the issue I have trouble with is their actions, not the beliefs themselves. -- Ed Huntress |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Ed Huntress wrote:
This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. Yep we were watching some documentary a week or so ago on Fundamentalist/Creationist/IDers and there was an overwhelming sense that here was a group of people looking for absolute assurances, something solid they could cling to whilst the world around them shifted. |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
"Guido" wrote in message
... Ed Huntress wrote: This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. Yep we were watching some documentary a week or so ago on Fundamentalist/Creationist/IDers and there was an overwhelming sense that here was a group of people looking for absolute assurances, something solid they could cling to whilst the world around them shifted. Oh, yeah. You can see it here among the intensely religious. It's happened many times. Nobody likes injustice, uncertainty, not knowing the ultimate realities, or the thought that everything is over when you die. Different people have different limits on how much they can internalize and live with. When uncertainty is running high, a lot of them reach the tipping point and get born again. This is a different phenomenon from basic, common faith. -- Ed Huntress |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Guido wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote: This is a time in US history when there are no clear goals, no direction, no generally agreed idea of "progress." It is a time of stagnancy and ennui. It will pass, but, until it does, absolutist religion is an answer that is attractive to the many people who are extremely uncomfortable with all of the uncertainty and lack of direction. Yep we were watching some documentary a week or so ago on Fundamentalist/Creationist/IDers and there was an overwhelming sense that here was a group of people looking for absolute assurances, something solid they could cling to whilst the world around them shifted. The entire issue reminds me of the "Red Scare" of the 50's. I have yet to see a credible piece of objective evidence that anyone is being denied the right to practice religion outside the confines of Publicly financed places. There does, on the other hand, appear to be an ongoing effort to subvert and divert public moneys to support an entire host of religious groups or perspectives. That effort isn't meeting with much success and it won't in all likelyhood. Noone in the US is denied their religious preference or the ability to practice it. That isn't the same thing as being able to use public resources to promote the same. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
Ed Huntress wrote: "Gus" wrote in message roups.com... Ed Huntress wrote: The hard-boiled born-again are not a vast majority. Those who believe in God are a vast majority, but they have always been. And we have shown no real tendency to become a theocracy despite that fact. Absolutely. The issue now is that certain evangelicals are getting a little frisky and are trying to intrude their religion into government and into the schools. They are being resisted. They are not likely to succeed, nor are they likely to become a "vast majority." It seems to me that the anti-religion forces have been trying to remove any mention of god from public places for about 40 years or so. Yeah, well, that corresponds roughly to the span of time over which the theocrats have been trying to stick them in. Notice that the big issues, the Ten Commandments in the courthouse and so on, are of pretty recent vintage. Likewise, introducing religion into biology classes. They appear to want to change our society to fit their views. Now some people have had enough and are resisting. Their goal seems to be to keep things the same, not change anything. It's a little like racial discrimination, as I see it. We've had a law against discrimination for a very long time, but it's still a task to get some people to live up to the law. Likewise, living up to the Constitution, which says we won't establish religion, is a never-ending battle. FWIW, I happen to believe that the fundamental constitutional principle is that the government will not encourage or promote any religion, or any group of religions. But I don't think it was intended for the government to prevent citizens from expressing their religion in public settings. There was a Supreme Court ruling that drew a fine line between the two, and I think it was a fine decision. In other words, at Christmastime, if the people of a town want a manger and a Christmas display in the town square, I'm all for it. But they'd better also allow any other religious display, at the appropriate religious holidays. I tend to agree..however, people would also have to understand that should a small group wish to install a pentagram and have a note saying "glory to Satan", that would be acceptible under the same provisions. Clearly, though, the debate about the "war on christmas" and similar religious displays on public property is about imposing one religion that may have a majority in the USA over minority religions. There's a simple test of this....IF the pledge of allegience had the words "one nation, under Satan", would these same people be battling to have that removed? Would they refuse to participate in the reciting of this line? Clearly, if the reference were to a religion that didn't fit their viewpoint, the same that are now fighting to keep their God references would be fighting to remove the references to anyone else's god. The Constitution is written to protect a minority from the impositions of a majority on certain and very specific issues like religion and speech. Accept that the best role for the government is to stay out of anything that imposes any notion of religion or risk having your money say "I'm a Buddha Buddy" should the population of Asians (and others who practice the same) ever increase to become a majority....or Virgin Mary statues and confessionals in government buildings should the population of hispanic catholics ever increase to a majority. Neither tradition nor majority percentages make it right for a goverment to act in the role of promoting one religious viewpoint over another....even in minor ways like "God" references in pledges and on money. Koz -- Ed Huntress |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
jim rozen wrote: In article .com, Gus says... Their goal is pure and simple: to teach religion in public schools. Read the court decsion about the Dover, PA case. And how does that balance out what the ACLU has been doing for 40 years? News Flash: Relgion is not to be taught in public schools. Never was, never will be. Does it matter if the courts, the constitution, the aclu, or the school board, says it? Which one convinces you? Jim I agree that public schools should not "teach" religion but I also think that the ban on even mentioning Christmas or the ban on school kids from mentioning God has gone too far. I don't know, I've read the constitution and I can't find a lot of the stuff that the ACLU says is in there. School boards are running scared of ACLU threats so they aren't a good source of what's right either. I suppose the Dover case you're mentioning has to do with intelligent design. The way I heard it, there was no "teaching" of it. A 4-paragraph statement was to be read at the start of the year's science class stating that there was another theory of origins and if anyone was interested they could check out a certain book. Now the good judge apparently called this "teaching of religion" but I personally think he was out to lunch. Atheism is also a religion of sorts but schools don't mind teaching that. GW |
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OT - New Conservative Science Theme Park
jim rozen wrote:
In article .com, Gus says... Their goal is pure and simple: to teach religion in public schools. Read the court decsion about the Dover, PA case. And how does that balance out what the ACLU has been doing for 40 years? News Flash: Relgion is not to be taught in public schools. Never was, never will be. Never? When the Constitution was ratified several US states had state religions and part of the reason for the First Amendment was that there was concern on the part of those states that the Federal government would institute a _different_ religion as the national religion. It was _not_ intended that that Amendment would abolish the state religions in those states. Does it matter if the courts, the constitution, the aclu, or the school board, says it? Which one convinces you? The ACLU is just an advocacy group, and as such their views hold no more force than those of the Mormons, less in fact if you believe in democracy--there are 400,000 ACLU members vs 4 million Mormons. If the school board decides that the schools _will_ teach religion, which has happened on a number of occasions, then do you still stand by their view? The Constitution doesn't say anything about what can or cannot be taught in public schools--in fact one can argue that any attempt to restrict discourse in schools runs afoul of the guarantees of freedom of speech. One could even question the authority of the government, under the Constitution, to fund such schools from the taxpayer's pocket--there is certainly no _explicit_ power to do so. If one can come up with a good argument and catch the Supreme Court on the right day then public schools might very well be abolished in their entirety on that basis. That leaves the courts, which are in fact the bodies that have made the determination that the Constitution prevents the teaching of religion in public schools. This ruling is, I believe, based on an early decision regarding the powers of the Federal government, extended to the states by the 14th Amendment, which was not intended to abolish the teaching of religion or religious values in public schools but to guarantee the civil rights of freed slaves. That being the case, it really gets down to the will of the Justices of the Supreme Court overriding the will of the majority of the population, and that being the case the will of those Justices may very well change at some point. Jim -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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