Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Buy a used CO2 fire extinguisher? Convert a junk propane bottle to CO2?
Use an O2 boittle that failed hydro?

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Nick Hull says...

In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Buy a used CO2 fire extinguisher? Convert a junk propane bottle to CO2?
Use an O2 boittle that failed hydro?

Read Roy's account of a fire extinguisher blow-off?

I think would treat compressed gas cylinders with great
care. Just pay the 75 for a hydrotested cylinder.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:26:31 -0800, someone who calls themselves Grant
Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

You want to carbonate (or refresh) soda, you find the little
stainless clamp-in back flange Schrader valve stems they use at the
Phone Company for the pressure cable caps.

Drill a hole in a 2-liter soda bottle cap, stick the valve stem
through, and tighten the nut. (The seal on the bottle cap will seal
the stem also.) Pressurize to 10 PSI with a CO2 regulator and
Schrader chuck, and wait a while. Seltzer bottle! ;-)

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

Go talk to your local fire extinguisher service business. They run
across the occasional CO2 extinguisher where the cylinder is perfectly
serviceable, but either the valve head and horn are damaged and they
don't have another available for parts. Or the instruction band with
the certification label and serial number is missing or damaged, and
they can't refill it as an extinguisher without one.

Or the cylinder was way out of date and the old owner didn't want to
pay for the hydrotest and a refill too. The only thing to avoid if
you want to shop for old extinguishers cheap at garage sales is the
WWII-era cylinders that are stamped "SPUN" on the head as a warning -
you want a regular forged one. Stay away from aluminum cylinders
unless you know they're in good shape.

I have acquired three CO2 cylinders like that for welding gas, and
have a few more that are still full CO2 extinguishers. And a whole
pile of dry chemical units for around the house and in the cars. I
only have a few I bought new, mostly 2 1/2 pounders.

Your extinguisher guy will show you what to look for in old
extinguishers that can be refilled and put in service again, and
ALWAYS bring them in for an inspection and service before you keep
them around. It is a pressure cylinder, there is a lot of potential
mayhem bottled up in there - Remember Roy and the Mrs, who both got
banged up really badly (darned near killed) when the valve head blew
off an old extinguisher they found by the side of the road...

Either way, you empty the cylinder (fwoosh!), have the extinguisher
service change the valve head from extinguisher to CGA (under $10)
(and let them have the old valve and horn for parts), get the cylinder
hydrotested (around $12), a little sanding and a quick grey paint job
(Krylon $3), and fill it up (around $10).

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.

I have a 20 lb CO2 bottle you can borrow. Also a 580 regulator, but
no 320 to 580 adapter.

Dan



Grant Erwin wrote in message ...
Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

We save pounds in UK by using beer dispense cylinders from pubs (bars). I
don't know what systems bars have in US but you could ask a barman after
buying a suitable quantity of alcohol of course. Can't remember the size of
my bottle but it's dirt cheap compared to other sources.
You will need a suitable regulator of course. My bottle fitting isn't like a
conventional bull nose so check first.
Here there are 2 types of pub here. One is brewery owned and the publican is
just an employee. These guys are tied down tight so may not be over helpful.
The other sort is privately owned and they have their suppliers over a
barrel (pun intended) so could be more help to you.

John

Thanks, John. I bet I haven't been in a tavern in 20 years! (Well, maybe
to use the bathroom in dire circumstances ..) - GWE

John Manders wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..


We save pounds in UK by using beer dispense cylinders from pubs (bars). I
don't know what systems bars have in US but you could ask a barman after
buying a suitable quantity of alcohol of course. Can't remember the size of
my bottle but it's dirt cheap compared to other sources.
You will need a suitable regulator of course. My bottle fitting isn't like a
conventional bull nose so check first.
Here there are 2 types of pub here. One is brewery owned and the publican is
just an employee. These guys are tied down tight so may not be over helpful.
The other sort is privately owned and they have their suppliers over a
barrel (pun intended) so could be more help to you.

John

Depending on how much soda you want to carbonate at one time, you might
consider getting a seltzer bottle. They are powered by the little CO2
cartridges.
You just fill the bottle with the liquid, put on the top, attach the
charger with a cylinder in it, shake the bottle to insure the CO2 gets
absorbed, and bingo, you have carbonated whatever. Plus it is ready to
dispense into your glass without any further mess.
(Also makes a great waterfight weapon.)

Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

In article , nic wrote:
Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Depending on how much soda you want to carbonate at one time, you might
consider getting a seltzer bottle. They are powered by the little CO2
cartridges.
You just fill the bottle with the liquid, put on the top, attach the
charger with a cylinder in it, shake the bottle to insure the CO2 gets
absorbed, and bingo, you have carbonated whatever. Plus it is ready to
dispense into your glass without any further mess.

And whatever you do -- don't try carbonating milk in a seltzer
bottle. (DAMHIKT :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bruce L. Bergman writes:

You want to carbonate (or refresh) soda, you find the little
stainless clamp-in back flange Schrader valve stems they use at the
Phone Company for the pressure cable caps.

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Richard J Kinch
Palm Beach County, Florida USA
http://www.truetex.com

Grant Erwin writes:

My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article , nic
wrote:
Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Depending on how much soda you want to carbonate at one time, you might
consider getting a seltzer bottle. They are powered by the little CO2
cartridges.
You just fill the bottle with the liquid, put on the top, attach the
charger with a cylinder in it, shake the bottle to insure the CO2 gets
absorbed, and bingo, you have carbonated whatever. Plus it is ready to
dispense into your glass without any further mess.

And whatever you do -- don't try carbonating milk in a seltzer
bottle. (DAMHIKT :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.


Carbonated Milk, yikes. =)

I bet the resulting carbonic acid curdles the milk...?

Sounds right up there with carbonated iced tea from a warm can.

StaticsJason

In article hOhvb.4222$yJ.1440@okepread02,
Statics wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

And whatever you do -- don't try carbonating milk in a seltzer
bottle. (DAMHIKT :-)

[ ... ]

Carbonated Milk, yikes. =)

So -- I was a little crazy, and wondering what it would taste
like. :-)

I bet the resulting carbonic acid curdles the milk...?

Yep! And I never got it all out of the (metal) seltzer bottle. :-)
Luckily, I hadn't *bought* that bottle, and had no other uses for it.

Sounds right up there with carbonated iced tea from a warm can.

That, I haven't tried.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:39:47 -0600, someone who calls themselves
Richard J Kinch wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman writes:

You want to carbonate (or refresh) soda, you find the little
stainless clamp-in back flange Schrader valve stems they use at the
Phone Company for the pressure cable caps.

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Richard J Kinch
Palm Beach County, Florida USA
http://www.truetex.com

Right! But it's a heck of a lot easier to leave the valve stem in
the schrader valve on the cap (like the Camel fitting you have in the
first cap photo) and use a schrader chuck rather than your ball valve,
pressure gauge and Milton QD hose fitting. Plus, the modified bottle
cap automatically holds pressure until it is unscrewed for dispensing
the product, even with the hose disconnected.

I've long ago given up on making my own, when there's Item 30 -
Costco Simply Soda diet is like $2.79 a case, which is cheap enough
that it doesn't make it worth messing with. But if I ever run across
a good used BarMate gun, chiller plate and carbonator pump at a decent
price, I might put it all together and start making my own again.

Oh, and use a regular air compressor to run the bag-in-box pumps,
it's a lot cheaper than wasting CO2 on it.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:26:31 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

When my son and I made root beer we used champagne yeast- about 1/4
teaspoon to a two liter bottle.
Makes wonderfully gassy soda. B U R P !

-Carl

--The trick is to use an old, large soda bottle; i.e. a plastic
one with a large cap. Insert stuff to be carbonated, then toss in a few
hunks of dry ice. Cap the bottle and immerse it in a bath of ice water for
an hour or so. Don't know why (not a chemist) but CO-2 absorption goes way
faster if you drop the temperature.
--I learned this trick at a conference I attend; the fellow who
did it (Tsutomu Shimamura, a great and interesting guy) was carbonating
hunks of fruit. Chomping on a carbonated grape is a real hoot!

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another Fart in
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : the Elevator of Life...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:36:37 GMT, steamer wrote:

--The trick is to use an old, large soda bottle; i.e. a plastic
one with a large cap. Insert stuff to be carbonated, then toss in a few
hunks of dry ice. Cap the bottle and immerse it in a bath of ice water for
an hour or so. Don't know why (not a chemist) but CO-2 absorption goes way
faster if you drop the temperature.
--I learned this trick at a conference I attend; the fellow who
did it (Tsutomu Shimamura, a great and interesting guy) was carbonating
hunks of fruit. Chomping on a carbonated grape is a real hoot!

Didn't he write "Takedown"?

-Carl

In article , steamer says...

--The trick is to use an old, large soda bottle; i.e. a plastic
one with a large cap. Insert stuff to be carbonated, then toss in a few
hunks of dry ice. Cap the bottle and immerse it in a bath of ice water for
an hour or so. Don't know why (not a chemist) but CO-2 absorption goes way
faster if you drop the temperature.

If one puts too much dry ice in there, the bottle might
pop. When they do it sounds like an M80 going off, or
so I've been told.

Interestingly the solubility of CO2 seems to *reduce* if
the temperature is dropped enough. Somebody once attempted
to cool his warm bottle of coke by dipping it into an
open topped dewar of liquid nitrogen, when I was working
in boston.

All the CO2 comes out at once, the gyser of coke hit the
ten foot ceiling in the lab.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 21 Nov 2003 11:00:35 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


If one puts too much dry ice in there, the bottle might
pop. When they do it sounds like an M80 going off, or
so I've been told.

This is a fairly common practice in some places on holidays involving
pyrotechnics, and is used with some sucess in harvesting fish, with
the suitible application of a heavy object as a weight.

Gunner

"The British attitude is to treat society like a game preserve where a
certain percentage of the 'antelope' are expected to be eaten by the
"lions".
Christopher Morton

Bruce L. Bergman writes:

http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm

Right! But it's a heck of a lot easier to leave the valve stem in
the schrader valve on the cap (like the Camel fitting you have in the
first cap photo) and use a schrader chuck rather than your ball valve,
pressure gauge and Milton QD hose fitting. Plus, the modified bottle
cap automatically holds pressure until it is unscrewed for dispensing
the product, even with the hose disconnected.

It is difficult to hold a tire chuck on a valve stem while agitating the
bottle. It also wastes some gas leaking out the gasket. You need the
ball valve to stop the slow leak of a chuck when the system is not in
use; this can bleed your CO2 in a matter of days.

If you really want to do it like you suggest, then a better approach is
to buy the ball lock fittings and cap instead of improvising from a tire
valve.

I've long ago given up on making my own, when there's Item 30 -
Costco Simply Soda diet is like $2.79 a case, which is cheap enough
that it doesn't make it worth messing with. But if I ever run across
a good used BarMate gun, chiller plate and carbonator pump at a decent
price, I might put it all together and start making my own again.

Any on-tap system has an unavoidable constant-bleeding overhead from
having to run a chiller. Unlike the bottle method, you have
convenience, but not economy.

Oh, and use a regular air compressor to run the bag-in-box pumps,
it's a lot cheaper than wasting CO2 on it.

Not really. The volume of CO2 gas to pump the syrup for a given amount
of beverage is a tiny fraction of the CO2 gas needed to carbonate that
same beverage, so any savings in CO2 by using compressed air is
necessarily marginal. Plus you then have the added overhead of having a
compressor always on duty (slow leaks = money), and the problem of icky
shop air contaminating your beverage system. Having an air compressor
running (intermittently) all the time also worries me; they seem like
the sort of thing that could kick on and overheat or malfunction while
you weren't home.

jim rozen writes:

Interestingly the solubility of CO2 seems to *reduce* if
the temperature is dropped enough. Somebody once attempted
to cool his warm bottle of coke by dipping it into an
open topped dewar of liquid nitrogen, when I was working
in boston.

All the CO2 comes out at once, the gyser of coke hit the
ten foot ceiling in the lab.

Despite what you observed, the solubility did not reduce. Le Chatelier's
principle states that solubility of CO2 in water increases as
temperature decreases.

However, that assumes a freezing phase-change is not involved. What you
observed sounds like the LN2 started to freeze the beverage at the
interface to the bottle. CO2 does come out of solution when carbonated
water freezes. And that will happen quite dramatically with the rapid
heat transfer of immersion in LN2. Brrr!

It is also the case that a warm soda has several volumes of CO2 more
than its equilibrium saturation. So if you had a warm soda, with the
sides suddenly frozen, you would get CO2 abruptly effervescing from the
freezing area, which in turn would trigger the warm area (supersaturated
with CO2 if recently uncapped) to violently effervesce.

Capped soda is charge with 4 volumes of CO2, while warm soda is flat
soda (when in equilibrium). So if you uncap a warm soda, you have an
unstable system that can be triggered to turn into a foam geyser. Thus
the locker-room champagne celebrations.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
If one puts too much dry ice in there, the bottle might
pop. When they do it sounds like an M80 going off, or
so I've been told.

I've seen a few demos involving LN and water (the water only to vaporize
the LN faster); the two are put in a bottle (in one case it was a much
larger jug, with a cork stuck in it a _little_ too tightly... POW!), and
in the case of the pop bottle, dropped in a protective cylinder so as not
to throw, shall we say confetti, on the crowd.

Interestingly the solubility of CO2 seems to *reduce* if
the temperature is dropped enough. Somebody once attempted
to cool his warm bottle of coke by dipping it into an
open topped dewar of liquid nitrogen, when I was working
in boston.

As a metalcaster, this sounds familiar...(I wonder just how much hydrogen
aluminum can hold?)

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article , Richard J Kinch
says...

However, that assumes a freezing phase-change is not involved. What you
observed sounds like the LN2 started to freeze the beverage at the
interface to the bottle. CO2 does come out of solution when carbonated
water freezes. And that will happen quite dramatically with the rapid
heat transfer of immersion in LN2. Brrr!

Interesting explaination. I did not witness the event, only
the aftermath ("what happened to the ceiling?") so I've
always been curious. The offending lab resident was famous
for doing stuff like this, for example, I found that he had
wandered into my lab and was trying to drill large holes
in brass, not using drills ground for brass - with predictable
results. I ushered him out the door.

In spite of his kindly, elderly southern gentleman appearance
he was a danger to himself and to others.

I do want to replicate the effect someday to see if it
really does this.

It is also the case that a warm soda has several volumes of CO2 more
than its equilibrium saturation. So if you had a warm soda, with the
sides suddenly frozen, you would get CO2 abruptly effervescing from the
freezing area, which in turn would trigger the warm area (supersaturated
with CO2 if recently uncapped) to violently effervesce.

This I *have* personally experienced. Dr. Pepper seems to
supersaturate much, much more than other brands. I had just
begun working in one shop, and had forgotten about my soda
on a nearby shelf. I had uncapped it and left it there,
undisturbed, for a half hour. When I tilted it up to
take a swig, all the CO2 came out at once, and I had Dr
Pepper coming our my eyes, my nose, my ears....

All this in front of my new boss.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Carl Byrns wrote:
: Didn't he write "Takedown"?
--Didn't read the book, but he co-wrote with a ghostwriter, IIRC.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another Fart in
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : the Elevator of Life...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Round here tere's an outfit separarte from the welding supply outfits
that deliver
CO2 bottles to convenience stores & the like..Talk with the driver, &
see what the deal is, mebby, the store owner will loan you one , or sell
you the contents--they usually have a bunch of Cylinders sittin around.
a lot of those bigger cylinders get
left around when cafes shut down, etc. Jes gotta look around..

Grant Erwin wrote:

Is there *any* way to avoid paying $75 for a 5 pound CO2 bottle?
My daughter wants to learn to carbonate her own soda, and I might
need it for MIG after she is done with that.

Just looking to save a buck ..

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington