Greetings Gents,

Just got back from Home Despot with a pile of goodies to build my
electrical distribution panel for the ChangFa generator (pictures will
be forth coming...)

While the main purpose for the generator is mobil power for remote job
sites, I also want to run the house off of it when the inevitable
happens. Towards that goal, I am looking for a 200amp 240V manual
transfer switch to go between the utility meter and my exterior 200amp
electrical panel. Seems simple enough, but have you seen the prices
of these things?? Grainger wants $499 for a simple manual transfer
switch. Even Harbour Fright wants $340 buck for a Cutler-Hammer
model..

Anyone have any other ideas on an inexpensive and simple transfer
switch?

Currently I'm watching Ebay, but who know's what you get there.

I now see the attraction of the evil method of pulling the electric
meter or flipping off the main breaker, and hard wiring in a
generator.. (And yes, I understand all the reasons why this is a
terrible and dangerous thing to do!)


Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge

"James Lerch" wrote: (clip) Anyone have any other ideas on an inexpensive
and simple transfer switch? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be finding switches that are rated to switch 200 amps under load.
You don't need that. You need a switch that will carry 200 amps.

The way I initially built my transfer system was with cable plugs. I wired
the house to the meter through a length of flexible cable that had a heavy
twistlock plug in the middle. I attached a similar cable to the generator
with a matching plug. In the event of a power failure, I unplugged from the
meter and plugged into the generator (with a flashlight in my armpit.) This
accomplishes the purpose, and absolutely prevents cross feeding between the
generator and the utility lines.

James Lerch wrote:

Greetings Gents,

Just got back from Home Despot with a pile of goodies to build my
electrical distribution panel for the ChangFa generator (pictures will
be forth coming...)

While the main purpose for the generator is mobil power for remote job
sites, I also want to run the house off of it when the inevitable
happens. Towards that goal, I am looking for a 200amp 240V manual
transfer switch to go between the utility meter and my exterior 200amp
electrical panel. Seems simple enough, but have you seen the prices
of these things?? Grainger wants $499 for a simple manual transfer
switch. Even Harbour Fright wants $340 buck for a Cutler-Hammer
model..

Anyone have any other ideas on an inexpensive and simple transfer
switch?

Currently I'm watching Ebay, but who know's what you get there.

I now see the attraction of the evil method of pulling the electric
meter or flipping off the main breaker, and hard wiring in a
generator.. (And yes, I understand all the reasons why this is a
terrible and dangerous thing to do!)


Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge


Northern tool sent a catalog today with those things..manual switch for
100 A is $ 129 with fancier units higher. Look around to see what
they've got. they might just have something cheap that will do the job.
northerntool.com


Koz

"James Lerch" wrote in message
...
Greetings Gents,

Just got back from Home Despot with a pile of goodies to build my
electrical distribution panel for the ChangFa generator (pictures will
be forth coming...)

There is a cheaper way if you are willing to pick 8 of your Home's circuits
to connect to your generator. Home Depot carries a $120.00, 60 amp generator
panel. It has a mechanical interlock so the panel can only be powered from one
source at a time.

Store SKU # 311215
Internet # 162355
Catalog # 100096290

Vaughn

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:46:03 GMT, in rec.crafts.metalworking you
wrote:


"James Lerch" wrote: (clip) Anyone have any other ideas on an inexpensive
and simple transfer switch? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be finding switches that are rated to switch 200 amps under load.
You don't need that. You need a switch that will carry 200 amps.

The way I initially built my transfer system was with cable plugs. I wired
the house to the meter through a length of flexible cable that had a heavy
twistlock plug in the middle. I attached a similar cable to the generator
with a matching plug.

Where o where did you find 200amp capable twist lock plugs? I kind of
like the idea, as long as code enforcment is happy with it as well...
Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:23:35 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


"James Lerch" wrote in message
...
Greetings Gents,

Just got back from Home Despot with a pile of goodies to build my
electrical distribution panel for the ChangFa generator (pictures will
be forth coming...)

There is a cheaper way if you are willing to pick 8 of your Home's circuits
to connect to your generator. Home Depot carries a $120.00, 60 amp generator
panel. It has a mechanical interlock so the panel can only be powered from one
source at a time.


I saw those, but I've got 15kw of power (well... I should have 15Kw of
power), so I'd like to be able to use it... I don't expect to be able
to run ALL my 220vac appliances at once, but it would be nice to run
each one individually if the power is out for extended periods...

Hacking apart a new 200amp meter base, and building a simple double
pole - double throw switch is starting to look attractive.... I wonder
how doable that might be, and if it would pass code when its done.


Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge

James Lerch wrote:


Hacking apart a new 200amp meter base, and building a simple double
pole - double throw switch is starting to look attractive.... I wonder
how doable that might be, and if it would pass code when its done.

Don't bother, it won't

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:42:41 GMT, Ignoramus4093
wrote:

I looked... and looked... on ebay, all websites, military surplus
sales... there is no better deal than the Harbor Freight switch, if
you want a whole house transfer switch.

15 kW is only 75 amps. You may be able to backfeed it through a
breaker on the panel, and install a mechanical interlock kit that
would prevent both the main switch and the backfeeding breaker from
being closed at the same time. Check out interlockkit.com.

Interesting, I saw some similar (But much smaller setup at Home
Despot). I wonder if I build the interlock myself, it will still pass
code inspection?

I have room in my existing breaker box....

Definitely something to consider (either the Kit, or the DIY version).


To be honest, if the generator was one site, and the power went out
for several hours / days, interlock or no interlock, I'd have power in
my house... :0 Of course, if the damn thing caught on fire and burned
my house to the ground, I wonder what insurance would have to say?

In any event, the interlock kit looks promising, I mean it's just
sheet metal work.....





Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge

In article
,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"James Lerch" wrote: (clip) Anyone have any other ideas on an inexpensive
and simple transfer switch? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You may be finding switches that are rated to switch 200 amps under load.
You don't need that. You need a switch that will carry 200 amps.

Many switches will carry many times their rated load as long as you
don't open it under load. I 'sucessfully' used a 15 amp DPDT switch in
a magnet circuit that used 50 apms at full load, worked great since I
needed to reverse polarity at essentially zero current. Put up a big
sign warning to NEVER flip the switch unless the power supply was OFF.
Worked great until some fool flipped the switch at full power to see
what would happen; It exploded like a hand grenade.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

If you burn down your house, start looking for a homeless shelter. Your
insurance agent probably won't even offer you a ride.

If you don't have a fire, but your generator power goes out on the
grid/system and maims or kills a utility worker or neighbor, housing will be
provided for you.

When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.

Nuttin against you personally, but when these survivalist thoughts are
combined with money-saving shortcuts, the chances of hazardous situations
rise sharply.

Just so you know, it's not only about your own possible losses.

WB
..............

"James Lerch" wrote in message
...

Snippage

I have room in my existing breaker box....

Definitely something to consider (either the Kit, or the DIY version).

To be honest, if the generator was one site, and the power went out
for several hours / days, interlock or no interlock, I'd have power in
my house... :0 Of course, if the damn thing caught on fire and burned
my house to the ground, I wonder what insurance would have to say?

In any event, the interlock kit looks promising, I mean it's just
sheet metal work.....

Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and
Coating site)




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"Wild Bill" wrote: (clip) When the generator power reaches the utility
tranformer, it will probably step up to the next level. Now it's not just
two 120VAC lines.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm NOT saying you should do it, but the above scenatio is EXTREMELY
unlikely. If you tried running your generator while still connected to the
utility line, you would be trying to fire up all your neighbors circuits.
Your poor little generator's breaker would trip.

There are weird circumstances in which you could harm a line worker, though,
so it is prohibited and inadvisable. Your main concern, in taking
shortcuts, is to avoid giving your insurance examiner something negative to
write in his report. That's how he earns his living, you know.

Wild Bill wrote:

When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.

And this ain't all! The current will find it's way right into the very
next nuclear power plant. There, it will make the steam that drives the
generator make _freeze_. from that moment on, only 83 seconds are left
and the power plant will have a core melt.
But not enough, the extra power of the diesel-generator (in the meantime
it will have spunn up to about 370.000 RPM) will go _directly_ into the
atmosphere and cause severe hail-storms, tornados, huricanes, snow,
rain, dryness, flashes, darkness, sodom and gamorra, earthquakes,
tsunamis, ...

Get real!

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models:
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic
more to come ...

I'm sure your concerns would be welcomed by our NFPA. We can start using the
wiring codes and safety literature for an alternate fuel.

WB
...............

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Wild Bill wrote:

When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will
probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.

And this ain't all! The current will find it's way right into the very
next nuclear power plant. There, it will make the steam that drives the
generator make _freeze_. from that moment on, only 83 seconds are left
and the power plant will have a core melt.
But not enough, the extra power of the diesel-generator (in the meantime
it will have spunn up to about 370.000 RPM) will go _directly_ into the
atmosphere and cause severe hail-storms, tornados, huricanes, snow,
rain, dryness, flashes, darkness, sodom and gamorra, earthquakes,
tsunamis, ...

Get real!

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models:
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic
more to come ...




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Nick Müller wrote:

Wild Bill wrote:


When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.


And this ain't all! The current will find it's way right into the very
next nuclear power plant. There, it will make the steam that drives the
generator make _freeze_. from that moment on, only 83 seconds are left
and the power plant will have a core melt.
But not enough, the extra power of the diesel-generator (in the meantime
it will have spunn up to about 370.000 RPM) will go _directly_ into the
atmosphere and cause severe hail-storms, tornados, huricanes, snow,
rain, dryness, flashes, darkness, sodom and gamorra, earthquakes,
tsunamis, ...

Here in the US, country folk often have their
own distibution transformer for their property,
connected to possibly miles of 7kv - 13Kv
distribution lines. A break in the distribution
line, followed by a customer back-feeding 120/240
into his transformer can indeed cause a very
hazardous situation for a lineman.

Jim Stewart wrote:

Here in the US, country folk often have their
own distibution transformer for their property,

OK, that's an argument.
But I bet the ground _both_ sides of _any_ power line they work on.

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models:
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic
more to come ...

The term for the expression "that'll probably never happen" is Tombstone
Mentality.

The safety codes are a system of approved fail-safe interlocks that are
intended to absolutely prevent the possibility of the "probably won't"
scenario.

I'm no expert in any field. I've worked in hazardous locations, sometimes
with other people that I didn't want there. I can't say I've developed a
keen sense about what could happen, but I usually consider possibilities
before I start.

A friend that was a supervisor for our local power company told me that
historically, significantly more deaths happen from folks messing around
with their home wiring than utility workers that are working near the even
more hazards equipment every day.

Just before he retired, he was responsible for monitoring a specialized
out-of-state subcontractor that was replacing splices on hot lines
(according to him) at the tower tops, the ones that go across several
counties. I saw the crew in action a couple of times.
I had to wonder where all the static went.

They were working from a platform attached to the side of a helicopter.
Attach a tensioning device to hold up the wire that spanned two towers,
remove the old splice, install a new one.
This type of system maintenance would eliminate larger expenses later,
out-of-court settlements and large area outages.

OTOH, there are those that never have enough time to do the job right, but
can manage to find time to do it over, when it fails.
Advice for them is to buy their next house before they start to fix up their
present one.

WB
...............

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
If you burn down your house, start looking for a homeless shelter. Your
insurance agent probably won't even offer you a ride.

If you don't have a fire, but your generator power goes out on the
grid/system and maims or kills a utility worker or neighbor, housing will
be
provided for you.

When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.

Nuttin against you personally, but when these survivalist thoughts are
combined with money-saving shortcuts, the chances of hazardous situations
rise sharply.

Just so you know, it's not only about your own possible losses.

WB
.............

"James Lerch" wrote in message
...

Snippage

I have room in my existing breaker box....

Definitely something to consider (either the Kit, or the DIY version).

To be honest, if the generator was one site, and the power went out
for several hours / days, interlock or no interlock, I'd have power in
my house... :0 Of course, if the damn thing caught on fire and burned
my house to the ground, I wonder what insurance would have to say?

In any event, the interlock kit looks promising, I mean it's just
sheet metal work.....

Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and
Coating site)




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Wild Bill wrote:

The safety codes are a system of approved fail-safe interlocks that are
intended to absolutely prevent the possibility of the "probably won't"
scenario.

My posting didn't have the intent to make "safety first" ridiculous.
You are right and I _fully_ agree that every means has to be taken that
the generator is not feeding the outside grid. Under no circumstances.
Also the way the gen is connected to the house grid has to be done it
has to be done. No kidding around. If in doubt, get an electrician,
spend money and sleep well.

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models:
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
Ellwe 2FB * VTM 87 * DLM-S3a * cubic
more to come ...

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...

Sounds like some of the cautionary wisdom I used to hear from my
grandmother. You know; like the horrible cramp you get if you go in the water
59 minutes after a light lunch, or the hair on the palms...

If you burn down your house, start looking for a homeless shelter. Your
insurance agent probably won't even offer you a ride.

Often repeated bull****. Please give us one cite where this has ever
happened. It depends on state and local insurance regulation, but generally
your home insurance protects you even against your own stupidity. Frankly, if
"stupidity" were excluded, there would be little point in having fire insurance.

If you don't have a fire, but your generator power goes out on the
grid/system and maims or kills a utility worker or neighbor, housing will be
provided for you.

Again, often repeated bull****. Please cite one case where someone has
gone to jail under the circumstances you describe. Also, the potential fatality
is very unlikely to be a lineman, they treat EVERY conductor as hot...they live
longer that way.

When the generator power reaches the utility tranformer, it will probably
step up to the next level. Now it's not just two 120VAC lines.

Again, unlikely. You see, standby generators are typically several orders
of magnitude SMALLER than the generators the utilities typically use. A typical
homeowner's generator will go up in smoke long before it will backfeed an entire
neighborhood.

Nuttin against you personally, but when these survivalist thoughts are

If "survivalist thoughts" means someone thinking in advance to safeguard
family and home from something as predictible as hurricane season, I see nothing
wrong with it.

combined with money-saving shortcuts, the chances of hazardous situations
rise sharply.

Yes, sometimes "money-saving shortcuts" are a bad idea.

Actually, I fully agree that generators should be connected to house wiring
only through approved equipment. In that respect, in fact, that is how mine is
connected. I just think that bogus "boogy man" stories are not the way to get
that point across.

Just so you know, it's not only about your own possible losses.

What is it about then?

Regards,
Vaughn

In article , Vaughn
says...

Actually, I fully agree that generators should be connected to house wiring only
through approved equipment.

Although, in fact much of the "approved equipment" includes stuff like
transfer switches that depend on opening one breaker and closing
another - with a simple mechanical interlock to prevent both from
being closed at the same time.

Those are UL approved transfer switches but they still have the
opportunity to have a breaker stick shut and backfeed the incoming
line.

Unless one ohmed out the opened-up breakers each time, it could
not be a 100% sure thing.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"James Lerch" skrev i en meddelelse
...

Where o where did you find 200amp capable twist lock plugs? I kind of
like the idea, as long as code enforcment is happy with it as well...

Camlock connectors are widely used in the entertainment industry ( and
incidentally they look a lot like the connectors used on stickwelders in
europe ) http://www.audiopile.net/Technical_L...tt_camlock.jpg

Another option may be CEE form connectors, widely used across europe:
http://www.shop.licht-geluid.nl/Afbe...compositie.jpg

The biggest ones available is a 5 pin ( 3 phase + neutral + gnd ) 125 amp
for a 230/400V setup..

Best thing about the CEE connectors is that they are close to indestructible
and pretty much waterproof... ( Wouldnt drop them in a lake tho :-)

/peter

On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:34:17 +0200, "Q" wrote:


"James Lerch" skrev i en meddelelse
...

Where o where did you find 200amp capable twist lock plugs? I kind of
like the idea, as long as code enforcment is happy with it as well...

Camlock connectors are widely used in the entertainment industry ( and
incidentally they look a lot like the connectors used on stickwelders in
europe ) http://www.audiopile.net/Technical_L...tt_camlock.jpg

Another option may be CEE form connectors, widely used across europe:
http://www.shop.licht-geluid.nl/Afbe...compositie.jpg

The biggest ones available is a 5 pin ( 3 phase + neutral + gnd ) 125 amp
for a 230/400V setup..

Best thing about the CEE connectors is that they are close to indestructible
and pretty much waterproof... ( Wouldnt drop them in a lake tho :-)

Interesting, they also look a lot like welding cable connectors used
on the Miller Big 40 DIesel welding machines as well.

I'm buying a 200amp transfer switch, I know that much for certain.
The question that remains is the simplest way to go from the transfer
switch to the generator, while still keeping the generator portable.

But first, I should probably make sure the generator gets finished

Take Care,
James Lerch
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm (My telescope construction, Testing, and Coating site)

Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge

In article , Ignoramus9053 says...

Those are UL approved transfer switches but they still have the
opportunity to have a breaker stick shut and backfeed the incoming
line.

Unless one ohmed out the opened-up breakers each time, it could
not be a 100% sure thing.

The transfer switches that I have seen, have blades that are too small
to close both sets of contacts at the same time.

I've seen the ones with pairs of breakers on the panel, with a sheet
metal toggle link that prevents one from closing before the other
is opened. They're not bulletproof, yet they're UL approved.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"James Lerch" skrev i en meddelelse
...

Interesting, they also look a lot like welding cable connectors used
on the Miller Big 40 DIesel welding machines as well.

I'm buying a 200amp transfer switch, I know that much for certain.
The question that remains is the simplest way to go from the transfer
switch to the generator, while still keeping the generator portable.

CEE forms would be my suggestion... Safe, relatively cheap and definately
reliable..

You could just leave a length of SOJ hanging off the transfer switch.. Plug
it in the gennie when needed..

Most Euro places ( and probably some american places too ) have CEE forms in
the 3 ph + neutral + gnd version available in 125 amp ( per ph@ 230/400V )
models.. They should cost about 50$ each...

The size range is: 16,32,63 and 125 amp 3 phase... Some UK places also stock
these in single phase versions..

I dont know anything about electrical codes in the US, but I doubt it would
be a problem using something like these in the US ( connectors are rated for
twice the voltage and twice the current compared to what you need )

Altho: You might want to consider looking in your neighbours shed to see
what kind of outlet he is using... That way you could steal power :-)

www.cameltraders.com can sell you the camlocks and appropriate cable if you
choose that route.. I have not done business with these people personally,
but they have an excellent reputation within the entertainment industry..

/peter

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:29:34 GMT, James Lerch wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:46:03 GMT, in rec.crafts.metalworking you
wrote:
The way I initially built my transfer system was with cable plugs. I wired
the house to the meter through a length of flexible cable that had a heavy
twistlock plug in the middle. I attached a similar cable to the generator
with a matching plug.

Where o where did you find 200amp capable twist lock plugs? I kind of

A 200amp plug is pretty beefy. I took a similar approach, but I did it
with a 60amp subpanel instead of the main. The subpanel plugs into a
60amp outlet powered from the main panel, or it plugs into an adjacent
outlet powered by a generator.

I also permanently grounded the subpanel, instead of
connecting/disconnecting the ground with the plug.

like the idea, as long as code enforcment is happy with it as well...

Don't know about that. In my case, I designed it to be easily rewired
if at some point that should be desirable. I believe it to be safe and
compliant, but I would not be suprised if there were some corner case
which prohibits permanent fixtures (the subpanel) from being cord and
plug connected to other permanent wiring.

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

The UL symbol on electrical devices isn't an all-purpose designation. Many
UL listed devices are listed/specification specific to be acceptable for a
single purpose.

Consumers buying products labeled on the packaging as "surge protectors"
were purchasing devices that were UL listed as interconnecting devices.

I believe the UL listed symbol used to represent a level of safety and
quality/reliability, when there weren't so many thousands of different
electrical devices, for so many specific uses.
Examining some of the low quality imported home and commercial lighting
products, for example, which have UL labeling, makes me doubt that the UL
symbol is a reliable overall representation of quality.
The products in the stores may not be of the same quality as the design
specifications that were submitted for approval (very poor quality control
at the manufacturing level).

There are numerous other international organizations that approve electrical
component designs.
When I see several international approval symbols on a product, I feel
confident that the product is very likely to be reliable.

This gets into an area where the user needs to know what any type of
approval labeling is actually intended to represent.

We've all heard mil-spec thrown around casually. There are specifications
for all types of products, and without actually knowing what the specific
designation actually represents, any particular product may not be suitable
for it's (next) intended use.

When someone has a mil-spec ratcheting tie-down, they might not know if the
original specification was to tie down aircraft or what other use it was
spec'd for.
For wire, one should know the insulation breakdown voltage rating and the
acceptable limits of the insulation, as an example.

WB
................

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vaughn
says...

Actually, I fully agree that generators should be connected to house
wiring only
through approved equipment.

Although, in fact much of the "approved equipment" includes stuff like
transfer switches that depend on opening one breaker and closing
another - with a simple mechanical interlock to prevent both from
being closed at the same time.

Those are UL approved transfer switches but they still have the
opportunity to have a breaker stick shut and backfeed the incoming
line.

Unless one ohmed out the opened-up breakers each time, it could
not be a 100% sure thing.

Jim


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In article ,
"Wild Bill" wrote:

The UL symbol on electrical devices isn't an all-purpose designation. Many
UL listed devices are listed/specification specific to be acceptable for a
single purpose.

Consumers buying products labeled on the packaging as "surge protectors"
were purchasing devices that were UL listed as interconnecting devices.

I believe the UL listed symbol used to represent a level of safety and
quality/reliability, when there weren't so many thousands of different
electrical devices, for so many specific uses.
Examining some of the low quality imported home and commercial lighting
products, for example, which have UL labeling, makes me doubt that the UL
symbol is a reliable overall representation of quality.
The products in the stores may not be of the same quality as the design
specifications that were submitted for approval (very poor quality control
at the manufacturing level).

There are numerous other international organizations that approve electrical
component designs.
When I see several international approval symbols on a product, I feel
confident that the product is very likely to be reliable.

Yes. All that UL and DIN and CA and the like care about is safety, so
their tests verify only that the device won't catch fire or electrocute
anyone. They do not test if the device is of good quality, or suited
for its claimed purpose. Only safety is tested.

That said, a product with multiple symbols usually comes from a large
company, simply because it costs lots of money to go through all those
tests, and larger companies usually finish the engineering before
shipping the product. But not always.


This gets into an area where the user needs to know what any type of
approval labeling is actually intended to represent.

We've all heard mil-spec thrown around casually. There are specifications
for all types of products, and without actually knowing what the specific
designation actually represents, any particular product may not be suitable
for it's (next) intended use.

When someone has a mil-spec ratcheting tie-down, they might not know if the
original specification was to tie down aircraft or what other use it was
spec'd for.

All MIL-SPECs are now available on the internet, so a little googling
should tell the tale. If the product claims to be MIL-SPEC, but doesn't
give the spec number, ignore the claim and don't buy the product.


For wire, one should know the insulation breakdown voltage rating and the
acceptable limits of the insulation, as an example.

The National Electrical Code and UL require that this information be
stamped on the wire itself, and verified by certain UL tests. It isn't
just a manufacturer claim.

Joe Gwinn

In article , Ignoramus9053 says...

I've seen the ones with pairs of breakers on the panel, with a sheet
metal toggle link that prevents one from closing before the other
is opened. They're not bulletproof, yet they're UL approved.

These, I believe, are called interlock kits and not transfer switches.

That's probably correct. I guess my point is that there's a large
number of people who are purchasing them and installing them because
they feel they are an acceptable solution to the problem of installing
backup power to their home without the danger of backfeeding the
utility line.

But really all they do is close one residential quality breaker
while opening another. If the utility side breaker sticks closed
then the backfeed will happen. How can utiltities allow such
a setup to be sold as an approved device when such a danger exists?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
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==================================================

Leviton mfg is actively pursuing legal recourse against several mfgs and
importers of sub standard gfci receptacles. I was reading about this the
other day. UL is not a big deal to begin with, it just costs money to get
something approved. I used to work for a small panel shop and one of the OEM
custmoers we did work for required their final product to be approved. This
was 15 years ago, and it seems like it was in the neighborhood of 6 thousand
bucks for one controller to be approved.


"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
The UL symbol on electrical devices isn't an all-purpose designation. Many
UL listed devices are listed/specification specific to be acceptable for a
single purpose.

Consumers buying products labeled on the packaging as "surge protectors"
were purchasing devices that were UL listed as interconnecting devices.

I believe the UL listed symbol used to represent a level of safety and
quality/reliability, when there weren't so many thousands of different
electrical devices, for so many specific uses.
Examining some of the low quality imported home and commercial lighting
products, for example, which have UL labeling, makes me doubt that the UL
symbol is a reliable overall representation of quality.
The products in the stores may not be of the same quality as the design
specifications that were submitted for approval (very poor quality control
at the manufacturing level).

There are numerous other international organizations that approve
electrical
component designs.
When I see several international approval symbols on a product, I feel
confident that the product is very likely to be reliable.

This gets into an area where the user needs to know what any type of
approval labeling is actually intended to represent.

We've all heard mil-spec thrown around casually. There are specifications
for all types of products, and without actually knowing what the specific
designation actually represents, any particular product may not be
suitable
for it's (next) intended use.

When someone has a mil-spec ratcheting tie-down, they might not know if
the
original specification was to tie down aircraft or what other use it was
spec'd for.
For wire, one should know the insulation breakdown voltage rating and the
acceptable limits of the insulation, as an example.

WB
...............

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vaughn
says...

Actually, I fully agree that generators should be connected to house
wiring only
through approved equipment.

Although, in fact much of the "approved equipment" includes stuff like
transfer switches that depend on opening one breaker and closing
another - with a simple mechanical interlock to prevent both from
being closed at the same time.

Those are UL approved transfer switches but they still have the
opportunity to have a breaker stick shut and backfeed the incoming
line.

Unless one ohmed out the opened-up breakers each time, it could
not be a 100% sure thing.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================




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There are also some very poorly designed (crap) products produced in the
USA.

I've seen wall receptacles installed in new mobile homes that are enough to
give ya the creeps.
The connection method is IDC (insulation displacement connection), very much
like the taps for automotive wiring.

Some folks hate the more common strip/push-in connections (myself included),
but the IDC is far worse for conductor contact area. The slot is in a brass
tab that's maybe .060" thick.

It would be reasonable to assume that these IDC parts would have some
additional protection when installed, but they don't. They don't fit into
standard boxes, and aren't intended to be mounted in boxes, since the
fastening method is the little arm that swings out as the mounting screw is
tightened (capturing the drywall between the arm and the mounting flange
(all plastic housing construction, snap together installation to the
wiring).

The IDC termination technique has been successfully used in the electronics
industry for decades, although the connectors are generally all low voltage
and/or low current.

WB
.................

"Grady" wrote in message
news:qGZxe.3244$Zt.283@okepread05...
Leviton mfg is actively pursuing legal recourse against several mfgs and
importers of sub standard gfci receptacles. I was reading about this the
other day. UL is not a big deal to begin with, it just costs money to get
something approved. I used to work for a small panel shop and one of the
OEM
custmoers we did work for required their final product to be approved.
This
was 15 years ago, and it seems like it was in the neighborhood of 6
thousand
bucks for one controller to be approved.


"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
The UL symbol on electrical devices isn't an all-purpose designation.
Many
UL listed devices are listed/specification specific to be acceptable for
a
single purpose.

Consumers buying products labeled on the packaging as "surge protectors"
were purchasing devices that were UL listed as interconnecting devices.

I believe the UL listed symbol used to represent a level of safety and
quality/reliability, when there weren't so many thousands of different
electrical devices, for so many specific uses.
Examining some of the low quality imported home and commercial lighting
products, for example, which have UL labeling, makes me doubt that the
UL
symbol is a reliable overall representation of quality.
The products in the stores may not be of the same quality as the design
specifications that were submitted for approval (very poor quality
control
at the manufacturing level).

There are numerous other international organizations that approve
electrical
component designs.
When I see several international approval symbols on a product, I feel
confident that the product is very likely to be reliable.

This gets into an area where the user needs to know what any type of
approval labeling is actually intended to represent.

We've all heard mil-spec thrown around casually. There are
specifications
for all types of products, and without actually knowing what the
specific
designation actually represents, any particular product may not be
suitable
for it's (next) intended use.

When someone has a mil-spec ratcheting tie-down, they might not know if
the
original specification was to tie down aircraft or what other use it was
spec'd for.
For wire, one should know the insulation breakdown voltage rating and
the
acceptable limits of the insulation, as an example.

WB
...............




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"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
There are also some very poorly designed (crap) products produced in the
USA.

Some folks hate the more common strip/push-in connections (myself included),

There are two basic types. There is the spring-loaded style (that I don't
trust) and there is the type where the connection screw tightens a plate that
captures the wire. That second type is pretty good.

It would be reasonable to assume that these IDC parts would have some
additional protection when installed, but they don't. They don't fit into
standard boxes, and aren't intended to be mounted in boxes,

(Shudder) I have never seen these things. Have you ever seen a mobile home
burn? I thought that they generally improved the mobile home wiring code about
the time they outlawed aluminum wire in them? Wrong?


The IDC termination technique has been successfully used in the electronics
industry for decades,

Especially in the telephone world.

Vaughn

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Ignoramus9053 says...

I've seen the ones with pairs of breakers on the panel, with a sheet
metal toggle link that prevents one from closing before the other
is opened. They're not bulletproof, yet they're UL approved.

These, I believe, are called interlock kits and not transfer switches.

They are called interlock kits when sold as an add on device for
existing breakers.

When used in a manufactured and tested transfer switch arrangement the
finished assembly is indeed considered a transfer switch.


That's probably correct. I guess my point is that there's a large
number of people who are purchasing them and installing them because
they feel they are an acceptable solution to the problem of installing
backup power to their home without the danger of backfeeding the
utility line.

The authorities having jurisdiction also feel that they are an
acceptable solution.


But really all they do is close one residential quality breaker
while opening another. If the utility side breaker sticks closed
then the backfeed will happen.

The probability of any of the breakers in your panel sticking closed is
very low and probability of the one specific utility feed breaker
sticking closed is extraordinarily low. This is particularly true since
those main breakers are generally running far below their ratings,
unlike individual branch circuits which operate at 75% load far more
frequently.

How can utiltities allow such
a setup to be sold as an approved device when such a danger exists?

The utilities do not have any authority to regulate such things.

Pete C.

Vaughn wrote:

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
There are also some very poorly designed (crap) products produced in the
USA.

Some folks hate the more common strip/push-in connections (myself included),

There are two basic types. There is the spring-loaded style (that I don't
trust) and there is the type where the connection screw tightens a plate that
captures the wire. That second type is pretty good.

The first type is indeed crap and unreliable. The second type is quite
good and generally better than the manual wrap-around-the-screw method,
particularly with stranded wire.


It would be reasonable to assume that these IDC parts would have some
additional protection when installed, but they don't. They don't fit into
standard boxes, and aren't intended to be mounted in boxes,

(Shudder) I have never seen these things. Have you ever seen a mobile home
burn? I thought that they generally improved the mobile home wiring code about
the time they outlawed aluminum wire in them? Wrong?

While I wouldn't want cheap IDC connectors mounted without boxes in any
building I owned, don't automatically write off the IDC connections as
crap. The receptacles used in the Wiremold (tm) outlet strips are all
IDC and the quality is quite good. I've seen these strips abused to the
point where the receptacles are cracked and popping out, but I've not
seen the IDC connections fail.

Good IDC connections are gas tight and get more contact area than you
would think. The cheap spring contact backwire receptacles are not even
remotely close to a decent IDC connection.



The IDC termination technique has been successfully used in the electronics
industry for decades,

Especially in the telephone world.

The RJxx type phone connectors are one of the cheapest designs around,
but they rarely have a connection failure as long as they are applied
correctly to begin with. Usually they die from the latch tab being
broken. The '66' punch down blocks are decades old and still chugging
along. Again with gas tight IDC connections they don't have oxidation
problems.

Pete C.

I suppose that there are some very weird "acceptable" practices used
specifically in mobile home construction.
They're essentially in the RV category, as far as manufacturing goes.
In comparison to real home construction practices and materials, many of
them are basically the equivalent of the China/India version of machines and
tools.
The ones I've worked in can cause ya to feel sympathetic for the owner.

The plumbing is sub-standard to normal home construction.. I've also seen
fixtures that are actually marked/designated/approved for RV (on the back or
bottom, where it's not easily seen).

I've never seen one burn, but the bare frames are shown on the news
frequently.

The screw/captured wire termination is a reliable connection for current,
and most better quality replacement cord ends (stranded wire) use these
types of terminals.

The only advantage I see for IDC electrical power connections is speed in
the assembly process. The romex skin is peeled off for about 5", then the
IDC device is pressed shut on the wires, where I saw them used.
Feed through and branch end connections require no cutting, stripping,
twisting, pigtails or fastening. Total crap in my opinion.

WB
.................

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
There are also some very poorly designed (crap) products produced in the
USA.

Some folks hate the more common strip/push-in connections (myself
included),

There are two basic types. There is the spring-loaded style (that I
don't
trust) and there is the type where the connection screw tightens a plate
that
captures the wire. That second type is pretty good.

It would be reasonable to assume that these IDC parts would have some
additional protection when installed, but they don't. They don't fit
into
standard boxes, and aren't intended to be mounted in boxes,

(Shudder) I have never seen these things. Have you ever seen a
mobile home
burn? I thought that they generally improved the mobile home wiring code
about
the time they outlawed aluminum wire in them? Wrong?


The IDC termination technique has been successfully used in the
electronics
industry for decades,

Especially in the telephone world.

Vaughn






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In article , Pete C. says...

But really all they do is close one residential quality breaker
while opening another. If the utility side breaker sticks closed
then the backfeed will happen.

The probability of any of the breakers in your panel sticking closed is
very low and probability of the one specific utility feed breaker
sticking closed is extraordinarily low. This is particularly true since
those main breakers are generally running far below their ratings,
unlike individual branch circuits which operate at 75% load far more
frequently.

The implicantion in the above statement is clear: that it would
acceptable to backfeed through one breaker and mechanically lock
out the main breaker in the panelboard - because the chance of it
sticking closed is "very low."

Jim


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==================================================
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==================================================

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:07:01 -0400, "Wild Bill"
wrote:

There are also some very poorly designed (crap) products produced in the
USA.

I've seen wall receptacles installed in new mobile homes that are enough to
give ya the creeps.
The connection method is IDC (insulation displacement connection), very much
like the taps for automotive wiring.

Some folks hate the more common strip/push-in connections (myself included),
but the IDC is far worse for conductor contact area. The slot is in a brass
tab that's maybe .060" thick.

It would be reasonable to assume that these IDC parts would have some
additional protection when installed, but they don't. They don't fit into
standard boxes, and aren't intended to be mounted in boxes, since the
fastening method is the little arm that swings out as the mounting screw is
tightened (capturing the drywall between the arm and the mounting flange
(all plastic housing construction, snap together installation to the
wiring).

The IDC termination technique has been successfully used in the electronics
industry for decades, although the connectors are generally all low voltage
and/or low current.

WB
................
Ran into this crap in my SiL's mobile in Florida several years ago,
and with me being the son of a military trained industrial
electrician, and having worked in the trade part time since 1948, it
scared me to the point where I brought an example home to pass on to
one of our provincial supervising inspectors as the perfect example of
a horror story.
"Grady" wrote in message
news:qGZxe.3244$Zt.283@okepread05...
Leviton mfg is actively pursuing legal recourse against several mfgs and
importers of sub standard gfci receptacles. I was reading about this the
other day. UL is not a big deal to begin with, it just costs money to get
something approved. I used to work for a small panel shop and one of the
OEM
custmoers we did work for required their final product to be approved.
This
was 15 years ago, and it seems like it was in the neighborhood of 6
thousand
bucks for one controller to be approved.


"Wild Bill" wrote in message
...
The UL symbol on electrical devices isn't an all-purpose designation.
Many
UL listed devices are listed/specification specific to be acceptable for
a
single purpose.

Consumers buying products labeled on the packaging as "surge protectors"
were purchasing devices that were UL listed as interconnecting devices.

I believe the UL listed symbol used to represent a level of safety and
quality/reliability, when there weren't so many thousands of different
electrical devices, for so many specific uses.
Examining some of the low quality imported home and commercial lighting
products, for example, which have UL labeling, makes me doubt that the
UL
symbol is a reliable overall representation of quality.
The products in the stores may not be of the same quality as the design
specifications that were submitted for approval (very poor quality
control
at the manufacturing level).

There are numerous other international organizations that approve
electrical
component designs.
When I see several international approval symbols on a product, I feel
confident that the product is very likely to be reliable.

This gets into an area where the user needs to know what any type of
approval labeling is actually intended to represent.

We've all heard mil-spec thrown around casually. There are
specifications
for all types of products, and without actually knowing what the
specific
designation actually represents, any particular product may not be
suitable
for it's (next) intended use.

When someone has a mil-spec ratcheting tie-down, they might not know if
the
original specification was to tie down aircraft or what other use it was
spec'd for.
For wire, one should know the insulation breakdown voltage rating and
the
acceptable limits of the insulation, as an example.

WB
...............




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Gerry :-)}
London, Canada