F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:



F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

No, they aren't. Most of us who actually live with alternative power,
don't consider ourselves "survivalists". I sure don't want anything to
do with the label, especially after the general corruption of its
meaning by the Dale Gribble types, who are often able to magically
separate self-reliance from the definition.

The general advantage of being able to make use of home power is to
improve quality of life. For instance, off-grid land tends to be
cheaper, and it's farther away from the hustle and bustle. A desire to
say, have more acres farther from town rather than fewer closer in, or
to get away from noise, smog, and the neighbors' yappy dogs, hasn't
anything to do with the oft-blogged irrational paranoia of so-called
survivalists, some of whom apparently can't even do without brand-name
soda.

Wayne

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?


They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never
attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible
without being threatened by the apocalypse.
I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy.

Rex

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?


They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never
attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible
without being threatened by the apocalypse.
I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy.

Rex

Who said anything about "anarchy" or the apocalypse? Is that what you
equate survivalism with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

Survivalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A survivalist is a person who anticipates a potential disruption in
the continuity of local, regional or worldwide society, and takes
steps to survive in the resulting unpredictable situation. Some
survivalists take an interest in survival in the wilderness or at sea,
while others look for opportunities to gain practice and training by
assisting in government volunteer organizations. Still others look at
historical incidents, either localized or affecting large regions, and
put extra effort and funds into preparing themselves with all the
tools and information needed to handle repeats of those same events.

Survivalists have current access to modern society, but prepare for a
future loss. This differentiates them from other people who endure
extreme situations by living in locations isolated through winter,
incursion commandos and guerrillas, and from subsistence farmers.

The specific preparations made will depend on the nature of the
anticipated disruption. The natures of the disruptions most commonly
planned for among survivalists include:

1. Natural disasters, such as tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes,
blizzards, and severe thunderstorms
2. Disasters brought about by the activities of humankind: chemical
spills, release of radioactive materials, war.
3. Collapse of the socioeconomic structure resulting in the
unavailability of electricity, fuel, food, water, and other goods and
services. Concern over the Y2K computer bug led to a brief widespread
interest in survivalism in 1999 for this reason.

Contents [showhide]
1 History
2 Common Preparations
3 Fringe Groups
4 Other Voices
5 In Fiction
6 External Links

6.1 Classic Survival Books
[edit]

History

The taking of prudent precautions as a hedge against bad times is as
old as history. The modern survivalist movement in the United States
and Great Britain can be traced chiefly to two sources:

1. The directive of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
to its members to store a year's worth of food for themselves and
their families
2. The publication of Famine and Survival in America by Howard J.
Ruff in 1974.

Ruff's book was published during a period of rampant inflation in the
wake of the 1973 oil crisis. Most of the elements of survivalism can
be found there, including advice on storage of food. The book also
championed the notion that precious metals, such as gold (as in South
African Krugerrands) and silver, have an intrinsic worth that makes
them more usable in the event of a socioeconomic collapse than other
currency.

Howard Ruff later repudiated much of the book. He has kept it out of
print and claims to have purchased the undistributed copies and
destroyed them. However, Ruff later published a successful financial
advisory newsletter and wrote a series of books with only slightly
milder variations on the same themes. The most popular of those books
was How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years, a best-seller in 1979.

Newsletters and a number of books on the topic of survival followed
the publication of Ruff's first book. In 1975, Kurt Saxon began
publishing a newsletter called The Survivor, which combined Saxon's
editorials with reprints of old 19th century and early 20th century
writings on various pioneer skills and old technologies. Kurt Saxon
used the term 'survivalist' to describe the movement, and he claims to
have invented the term. Around the same time, survival bookseller and
author Don Stephens in Washington state popularized the term
'retreater' to describe the movement, referring to preparations to
leave the cities to a rural retreat when society breaks down. For a
time in the 1970s, the terms 'survivalist' and 'retreater' were used
interchangably. The term 'retreater' eventually fell out of favor,
perhaps because 'survivalist' has a more macho connotation. Another
important newsletter in the 1970s was the Personal Survival Letter
published by Mel Tappan, who also authored the books Survival Guns and
Tappan on Survival. These newsletters functioned as important
networking tools for the movement during the pre-information age.

Interest in the survivalist movement perhaps peaked around 1980, on
the momentum of Ruff's How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years and
the publication in 1980 of the book Life After Doomsday by Bruce D.
Clayton. Clayton's book, coinciding with a renewed arms race between
the United States and Soviet Union, marked a shift in emphasis in
preparations made by survivalists away from economic collapse, famine,
and energy shortages which were concerns in the 1970s, to nuclear war.

Interest in the movement peaked again in 1999, triggered by fears of
the Y2K computer bug. Although extensive efforts were made to rewrite
computer programming code in response, some people nonetheless
anticipated widespread power outages, food and gasoline shortages, and
other emergencies to occur.

After the horrors of the Islamic extremist attacks on the World trade
centre in New York in 2001 and similar outrages in Bali and Spain a
resurgance of interest in survivalism started again, With the fear of
a war or jihad against the west by a minority of muslim extremists,
combined with an increase in awareness of environmental disasters and
global climate change, also coupled by the vulnerability of humanity
after the 2004 Tsunami in the Indian Ocean has once again made
Survivalism an issue of concern for many people.

Preparedness is once again in the forefront of peoples concerns and
those same people are now seeking to stockpile or cache supplies, gain
useful skills, develop contacts with others of similar outlooks and to
gain as much advice and information as possible.

All the old books have found new readership and other publications
such as RETREAT SURVIVAL which is a free booklet available on the
internet are enjoying more attention from concerned individuals and
families than ever before. At the start of the 21St Century electronic
bulltin boards have replaced many if not all paper based news
bullitins. On sites such as Yahoo Groups one can find up to the minute
discussions and debates on such subjects as Survival Vehicles,
Survival Retreats, Militias, as well as general purpose survivalist
groups[[1]
(http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query...&submit=Search).
[edit]

Common Preparations

Common preparations sometimes include preparing a clandestine or
defensible 'safe place' and stockpiling food, water, clothing, seed,
and agricultural equipment. While some survivalists do not emphasize
also stockpiling weapons, many do.

The common goal is to allow a group to remain completely
self-sufficient for the duration of the breakdown, or perhaps
indefinitely if the breakdown is predicted to be permanent.
Specifically, survivalists assume they cannot prevent the collapse,
and prepare to survive as individuals, as families, or in small
communal groups.

The term 'bugging out' is commonly used to describe a survivalist who
chooses to seek shelter in remote locations concealed from the rest of
civilization. These 'lone wolves' are similar to hermits. Their
strategy for survival is to live undetected, lying low to avoid
unwanted attention.

Survivalists make different preparations depending on which events
they are most concerned about happening. These concerns have changed
over the years. During the 1970s, economic collpase, hyperinflation,
and famine were the most common. These were prepared for with food
storage programs, constructing a "retreat" in the country which could
be farmed, and sometimes, hoarding precious metals and barterable
goods on the assumption that paper currency would become worthless.
During the early 1980s, these concerns were eclipsed by nuclear war,
with some survivalists going so far as to construct their own fallout
shelters. In 1999, many people purchased electric generators, water
purifiers, and several months or years worth of food in anticipation
of widespread and possibly months-long power outages because of the
Y2K computer bug.

Other survivalists have more specialized concerns, often related to an
adherenece to apocalyptic religious beliefs. Some New Agers anticipate
a forthcoming arrival of catastrophic earth changes and prepare to
survive them. A small percentage of evangelical Christians hold to an
interpretation of Bible prophecy known as a post-tribulation rapture,
in which Christians will have to go through a 7-year period of war and
dictatorship known as the 'Great Tribulation'. As previously noted,
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has an
official policy of food storage for its members. Some smaller
religious sects have also been known for belief in a coming apocalypse
and the adoption of some survivalist practices; among the best known
of these groups was the Branch Davidians.

Many people, who are not 'survivalists' in that they are not preparing
for any total collapse of society or apocalyptic event, nonetheless
make prudent preparations for emergencies. This can include, depending
on the location, preparing for earthquakes, floods, power outages,
blizzards, avalanches, wildfires, nuclear power plant accidents,
hazardous material spills, tornadoes, and hurricanes. These
preparations can be as simple as keeping a first aid kit, shovel, and
extra clothes in the car, or maintaining a small kit of emergency
supplies in the home and car, containing emergency food, water, a
space blanket and other essentials, commonly known as a 'bug-out bag'
or a '72-hour kit'.

Some businesses have arisen around providing survivalist supplies,
including businesses that sell complete sets of food supplies for
specified periods of time.


http://www.swfrpc.org/hurr.htm Anarchy?
http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000027.shtml Anarchy?
http://quake.ualr.edu/public/nmfz.htm Apocolypse?

http://www.fema.gov/kids/wldfire.htm Paranoia?

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease...9_3846,00.html
Madness?

Mighty wide paint brush you use.......

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:34:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?


They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never
attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible
without being threatened by the apocalypse.
I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy.

Rex

Who said anything about "anarchy" or the apocalypse? Is that what you
equate survivalism with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

Survivalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A survivalist is a person who anticipates a potential disruption in
the continuity of local, regional or worldwide society, and takes
steps to survive in the resulting unpredictable situation.

snipped detailed definition

We all know what a survivalist is *supposed* to be. And we also know
what most of the blowhard self-professed survivalists actually are.
The funniest thing is that you expect people to believe that you'll
have the will to do without during difficult times after TEOTWAWKI.
Even though the will to do without in normal times when it's easy, is
more than you can muster.

http://www.swfrpc.org/hurr.htm Anarchy?

You're moving to Florida?

http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000027.shtml Anarchy?

So you're working on the Taft ark?

http://quake.ualr.edu/public/nmfz.htm Apocolypse?

You might take a more southerly route to Florida, and avoid Arkansas
altogether...

http://www.fema.gov/kids/wldfire.htm Paranoia?

Hmm, there seems to be a trend here what a shock, a blizzard of
cites that don't actually support your fears or your position.

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease...9_3846,00.html
Madness?

Now we're getting somewhere. A quote from that site - "families and
individuals should remember that they could be preparing for upwards
of three days in isolation." Is that what you think "survivalism" is?
We generally go to town once a week. That's a routine six days of
isolation, and it wouldn't be a hardship to go double that. Lots of
rural folks go way longer, and most of them wouldn't call themselves
survivalists.

Here's the general idea - get your everyday **** together. If after
doing that you have any time and money left over, *then* get ready for
the apocalypse of your choosing. Doing it the other way around is
irrational.

Mighty wide paint brush you use.......

That's pretty funny coming from the guy who day after day, assigns
outrageously exaggerated or wholly fictional qualities to half the
population.

Here's a narrow brush preview of your fate should your fantasy come
true -

Day 1. Discovers that bluster can't be traded for butts or soda.
Day 2. Loses dumpster diving access to younger competitors.
Day3. Jonesin' for the Internet, because there's nobody to ask if an
empty water tank is indicative of a leak.

It'll all be downhill after that...

Wayne