Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which there
seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it is
BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most elevator
motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

My last BF motor deal: GE 40hp never used, wax still on shaft...$50


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which
there seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it
is BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most
elevator motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Normal guys don't need a big motor. Industrial guys who need a big motor usually
want a new one. I don't say you will never be able to sell it, but I doubt it.
I would pass on this.

Why would a 60-ton press need a motor that big? The 60-ton press I owned had
a 3hp motor.

GWE

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which there
seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it is
BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most elevator
motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Procto sez:

" Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt
if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?"

Robert sez:

Unless you have one helluva rpc, forget trying to start the monster.

Correct, it would make a great rpc in its own right - - 1) providing it runs
on 220 VAC. 2) You could wire it adequately to your residential power drop
(not likely) 3) Assuming you could meet 1 and 2 above, you could afford
very high electric bills.

Bob Swinney

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which
there seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it
is BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most
elevator motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is strapped for
240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the use of a Pony
motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would probably be possible to
run the large motor on ordinary residential service (but certainly nowhere
near code). If the large motor was say, 60 HP, the idling current to keep
it spinning would be in the neighborhood of 10 HP or so. That's 7.5 kW. At
nominal 10 cents a kilowatt-hour, that'd be 75 cents per hour just to keep
it spinning, not counting the consumption of load motors.

Bob Swinney
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Procto sez:

" Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt
if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?"

Robert sez:

Unless you have one helluva rpc, forget trying to start the monster.

Correct, it would make a great rpc in its own right - - 1) providing it
runs on 220 VAC. 2) You could wire it adequately to your residential
power drop (not likely) 3) Assuming you could meet 1 and 2 above, you
could afford very high electric bills.

Bob Swinney

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which
there seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it
is BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most
elevator motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?


We toss large three phase motors often. We tossed a 20 HP and a 25 HP a
couple of years ago. IIRC correctly I posted a notice here for them that
they were free for the taking, but no response! We do keep a few smaller,
newer motors, but after we have 1-2 of one HP and voltage any extra gets
tossed.
Older motors seem to have less value, I guess no one wants to deal with the
weight. 3 phase motors are relatively cheap any way.
Greg

Appreciate the feedback, prices.
I was going to make this My Very Last Stupid Act, but maybe I'll pass and do
my Act on/with something else.
I *still* want a big motor, tho....

Yeah, the point about such a big motor on a press is interesting. I think,
in this case, the flywheels are SO big, that considerable hp is needed to
get them started. After that, rel. low hp would keep it going.
Mebbe it's just a *really big* 3 hp motor!!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Recently I posted the availability of a 60-ton Bliss press, for which
there seems to be no takers.
So ahm thinkin of takin the motor!! Don't know the exact rating, but it
is BIG, proly around 700 lbs, w/ grease fittings. Bigger than most
elevator motors I've seen.

Any re-sale value to this motor--before I bust my effing ass taking this
thing down?
Plus, I might not even have the satisfaction of running it, cuz I doubt if
my rpc can handle it.
Altho this motor itself would make one helluva an rpc!! Good idear?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

"Greg O" wrote in message
...
We toss large three phase motors often. We tossed a 20 HP and a 25 HP a
couple of years ago. IIRC correctly I posted a notice here for them that
they were free for the taking, but no response!

Geez, at least sell 'em to a scrap yard - especially these days with copper
at $1.50/lb and iron uh, whatever it is ($20/ton? Motor's worth at least a
few cents iron alone..). Loose copper wire you can expect like $0.50 to
$1.00/lb. from them.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

You might look at the spec plate on the motor. It could be very large
for several reasons. Old motors had much larger frames than modern
motors. A good many years ago, I built a ripping saw with a 5 hp three
phase motor. The motor was not new when I bought it and it was about
the size of a big watermelon ( and painted green to boot. ). I think
it was a 284 frame. Now you can get a 25 hp motor in a 284 frame.
The saw acted as if it had a 25 hp motor. Never saw it slow down even
when ripping wet cedar.

It might also be a low rpm motor which would mean a bigger frame.
Currently a 15 hp 1180 rpm and a 25 hp 1760 rpm are both 284 frame
motors.

Dan

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Greg O" wrote in message
...
We toss large three phase motors often. We tossed a 20 HP and a 25 HP a
couple of years ago. IIRC correctly I posted a notice here for them that
they were free for the taking, but no response!

Geez, at least sell 'em to a scrap yard - especially these days with
copper
at $1.50/lb and iron uh, whatever it is ($20/ton? Motor's worth at least
a
few cents iron alone..). Loose copper wire you can expect like $0.50 to
$1.00/lb. from them.


On the big jobs we often rent a roll off for the scrap iron so it does get
recycled, we also have a scrap dumpster at the shop. No one here is willing
to take the time to strip the copper from the motors. We do save copper
scrap when it is easy!
So when I said we toss them, we really don't just toss them!
Greg

Newer motors are smaller compared to the old ones of same HP. From "Audels
Electric Motors", 5th Ed:

"Electric motors can now operate at higher temperatures because of the
development of insulation systems capable of handling temperature extremes.
The trend in motors is for reduced size and weight. This causes more heat
to be generated by the operation of the motor. This higher heat must be
handled by the insulation system without allowing motor life to be reduced
significantly. The future may see a change inasmuch as aluminum may be used
as the winding wire and the motor size will have to be increased to handle
the larger (physical) size conductors. This will probably create a motor
with more durability.

The insulation system, once the weakest link in the moor, no longer limits
the designer of industrial motors. Newer materials may well be developed to
allow for even longer life and the reduction of heat generated by motor
operation."

Generally speaking, if you find a motor with a fluted case, it is one of the
newer motors with improved insulation. The flutes are there to increase the
radiating surface because the motor will run much hotter than an old one of
the same HP.

Bob Swinney
wrote in message
ups.com...
You might look at the spec plate on the motor. It could be very large
for several reasons. Old motors had much larger frames than modern
motors. A good many years ago, I built a ripping saw with a 5 hp three
phase motor. The motor was not new when I bought it and it was about
the size of a big watermelon ( and painted green to boot. ). I think
it was a 284 frame. Now you can get a 25 hp motor in a 284 frame.
The saw acted as if it had a 25 hp motor. Never saw it slow down even
when ripping wet cedar.

It might also be a low rpm motor which would mean a bigger frame.
Currently a 15 hp 1180 rpm and a 25 hp 1760 rpm are both 284 frame
motors.

Dan

"Greg O" wrote in message
...
On the big jobs we often rent a roll off for the scrap iron so it does get
recycled, we also have a scrap dumpster at the shop. No one here is
willing
to take the time to strip the copper from the motors. We do save copper
scrap when it is easy!
So when I said we toss them, we really don't just toss them!

Ah, good I like saving money *and* entropy...

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Actually since EPAC 92 and NEMA Premium were instituted, electric
motors operate at lower temperatures because the efficiency is higher.
EPAC requires 25 hp motors to have an efficiency of about 92%. So a
current manufacture 25 hp motor ought to be consuming about 1500 watts
at the most when unloaded.

Dan


Robert Swinney wrote:
Newer motors are smaller compared to the old ones of same HP. From
"Audels
Electric Motors", 5th Ed:

"Electric motors can now operate at higher temperatures because of
the
development of insulation systems capable of handling temperature
extremes.
The trend in motors is for reduced size and weight. This causes more
heat
to be generated by the operation of the motor. This higher heat must
be
handled by the insulation system without allowing motor life to be
reduced
significantly. The future may see a change inasmuch as aluminum may
be used
as the winding wire and the motor size will have to be increased to
handle
the larger (physical) size conductors. This will probably create a
motor
with more durability.

The insulation system, once the weakest link in the moor, no longer
limits
the designer of industrial motors. Newer materials may well be
developed to
allow for even longer life and the reduction of heat generated by
motor
operation."

Generally speaking, if you find a motor with a fluted case, it is one
of the
newer motors with improved insulation. The flutes are there to
increase the
radiating surface because the motor will run much hotter than an old
one of
the same HP.

Bob Swinney
wrote in message
ups.com...
You might look at the spec plate on the motor. It could be very
large
for several reasons. Old motors had much larger frames than modern
motors. A good many years ago, I built a ripping saw with a 5 hp
three
phase motor. The motor was not new when I bought it and it was
about
the size of a big watermelon ( and painted green to boot. ). I
think
it was a 284 frame. Now you can get a 25 hp motor in a 284 frame.
The saw acted as if it had a 25 hp motor. Never saw it slow down
even
when ripping wet cedar.

It might also be a low rpm motor which would mean a bigger frame.
Currently a 15 hp 1180 rpm and a 25 hp 1760 rpm are both 284 frame
motors.


Dan

Robert Swinney wrote:
I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is strapped for
240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the use of a Pony
motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would probably be possible to
run the large motor on ordinary residential service

No, the problem is the reactive current would be huge. Somewhere around
75% of the rated load current, but at practically 0% lagging power
factor. This would blow your main fuses/breakers. The only way you
could do it would be with a totally HUGE phase correcting capacitor
bank. I'm guessing the reactive current couldn't be less than about
80 Amps. Maybe with everything else in the house off, you could manage
to do it. if you left it running for a couple of hours, the power
company would come running with their snoopers to find out who is
driving their phase correcting systems crazy with the huge lagging power
factor.

Jon

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Appreciate the feedback, prices.
I was going to make this My Very Last Stupid Act, but maybe I'll pass and do
my Act on/with something else.
I *still* want a big motor, tho....

Yeah, the point about such a big motor on a press is interesting. I think,
in this case, the flywheels are SO big, that considerable hp is needed to
get them started. After that, rel. low hp would keep it going.
Mebbe it's just a *really big* 3 hp motor!!
Does this motor have a commutator on it? A lot of these big, old
presses, shears and such had motors with wound rotor resistance start
systems or centrifugal resistance starting. They have a 16' shear at
the metals supplier that I go to. They shut it off when they go to
lunch, probably to prevent customers from chopping themselves in half.
When they get back from lunch, they turn it back on and let it run the
rest of the day. It must take 45 seconds, at the minimum, for the motor
to bring the flywheel back up to speed. That one has an automatic
resistance starting system. it would burn the motor up for sure if it
was a standard induction motor.

Jon

Hey Guys,

I forget who the OP was on this thing about the large motors, but my
experience was this:

I got a really nice ( recently rewound) freebie wound rotor motor (has
slip rings) 3 phase (of course) 20 HP 220Volt motor from an elevator
(some-one mentioned elevators earlier). Hooked it all up, using the
"Jim Rosen" spin-up method, then switched it "on". I have 200 amp
fuses for the main panel, and 30 amp fuses for the RPC test rig. It
popped the 30's immediately. Eventually had 60 Amp fuses, which held
OK, but my Amprobe said the draw on two lines was something over 80
Amps. No way I could afford to continue using this at that rate, so I
got rid of the 20 and went to a 7.5 squirrel cage. I forget exactly,
but draw now is more like 20 Amps or so.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:31:12 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Robert Swinney wrote:
I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is strapped for
240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the use of a Pony
motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would probably be possible to
run the large motor on ordinary residential service

No, the problem is the reactive current would be huge. Somewhere around
75% of the rated load current, but at practically 0% lagging power
factor. This would blow your main fuses/breakers. The only way you
could do it would be with a totally HUGE phase correcting capacitor
bank. I'm guessing the reactive current couldn't be less than about
80 Amps. Maybe with everything else in the house off, you could manage
to do it. if you left it running for a couple of hours, the power
company would come running with their snoopers to find out who is
driving their phase correcting systems crazy with the huge lagging power
factor.

Jon

Jon sez:

" No, the problem is the reactive current would be huge. Somewhere around
75% of the rated load current, but at practically 0% lagging power factor.
This would blow your main fuses/breakers. The only way you
could do it would be with a totally HUGE phase correcting capacitor
bank. I'm guessing the reactive current couldn't be less than about
80 Amps."

Oooooppps! Right you are, Jon. I overlooked the fact that a 60 HP motor's
idling current would be much greater than the idling current of a 10 HP
motor. I had surmised the idling "draw" of a 60 HP motor to be in the
neighborhood of 10 HP. WRONG I had not accounted for the fact that the
motor would still take almost the same amount of magnetizing (excitation)
current as if it was developing full HP. In a nutshell, the reason is that
an unloaded induction motor has a poor power factor. For example, I read
that a Design B squirrel-cage induction motor, at 10% of full load, has
efficiency of 33% and a power factor of 28%.

Thanks for the correction.

Bob Swinney


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Robert Swinney wrote:
I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is strapped
for 240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the use of a
Pony motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would probably be
possible to run the large motor on ordinary residential service

Maybe with everything else in the house off, you could manage
to do it. if you left it running for a couple of hours, the power
company would come running with their snoopers to find out who is driving
their phase correcting systems crazy with the huge lagging power factor.

Jon

Bob --- Isnt it nice to have access to the thinking of guys like Jon!!
It is guys like Jon that keep me reading this news group.

Jerry

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Jon sez:

" No, the problem is the reactive current would be huge. Somewhere
around
75% of the rated load current, but at practically 0% lagging power
factor. This would blow your main fuses/breakers. The only way you
could do it would be with a totally HUGE phase correcting capacitor
bank. I'm guessing the reactive current couldn't be less than about
80 Amps."

Oooooppps! Right you are, Jon. I overlooked the fact that a 60 HP
motor's idling current would be much greater than the idling current of a
10 HP motor. I had surmised the idling "draw" of a 60 HP motor to be in
the neighborhood of 10 HP. WRONG I had not accounted for the fact that
the motor would still take almost the same amount of magnetizing
(excitation) current as if it was developing full HP. In a nutshell, the
reason is that an unloaded induction motor has a poor power factor. For
example, I read that a Design B squirrel-cage induction motor, at 10% of
full load, has efficiency of 33% and a power factor of 28%.

Thanks for the correction.

Bob Swinney


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Robert Swinney wrote:
I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is strapped
for 240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the use of a
Pony motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would probably be
possible to run the large motor on ordinary residential service

Maybe with everything else in the house off, you could manage
to do it. if you left it running for a couple of hours, the power
company would come running with their snoopers to find out who is driving
their phase correcting systems crazy with the huge lagging power factor.

Jon

10-4 Good Buddy, 10-4!

Bob Swinney
"Jerry Martes" wrote in message
news:NdB6e.15659$B12.10156@trnddc09...

Bob --- Isnt it nice to have access to the thinking of guys like Jon!! It
is guys like Jon that keep me reading this news group.

Jerry

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Jon sez:

" No, the problem is the reactive current would be huge. Somewhere
around
75% of the rated load current, but at practically 0% lagging power
factor. This would blow your main fuses/breakers. The only way you
could do it would be with a totally HUGE phase correcting capacitor
bank. I'm guessing the reactive current couldn't be less than about
80 Amps."

Oooooppps! Right you are, Jon. I overlooked the fact that a 60 HP
motor's idling current would be much greater than the idling current of a
10 HP motor. I had surmised the idling "draw" of a 60 HP motor to be in
the neighborhood of 10 HP. WRONG I had not accounted for the fact that
the motor would still take almost the same amount of magnetizing
(excitation) current as if it was developing full HP. In a nutshell, the
reason is that an unloaded induction motor has a poor power factor. For
example, I read that a Design B squirrel-cage induction motor, at 10% of
full load, has efficiency of 33% and a power factor of 28%.

Thanks for the correction.

Bob Swinney


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Robert Swinney wrote:
I'm sure someone might point this out --- Assuming the motor is
strapped for 240 VAC, a large induction motor might be started with the
use of a Pony motor (the Rozen system). After starting, it would
probably be possible to run the large motor on ordinary residential
service

Maybe with everything else in the house off, you could manage
to do it. if you left it running for a couple of hours, the power
company would come running with their snoopers to find out who is
driving their phase correcting systems crazy with the huge lagging power
factor.

Jon