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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ?s
Were looking at one on ebay
Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ASM5C 203 Item number: 7505934111 Is there anyone who can tell us its capability? Is this machine fully automatic? We were all wondering here what all the buttons were for. What we are wanting it for is making small quantities(2-300) of various small not too critical parts. Tolrances are usually + or - .005. We do alot of small screws 8-32,10-32 with head as big as .500 with a length of the screw dia close to 2 in. We are now using a B+S and shaving these screws down. |
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wrote in message ups.com... Were looking at one on ebay Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ASM5C 203 Item number: 7505934111 Is there anyone who can tell us its capability? Is this machine fully automatic? We were all wondering here what all the buttons were for. What we are wanting it for is making small quantities(2-300) of various small not too critical parts. Tolrances are usually + or - .005. We do alot of small screws 8-32,10-32 with head as big as .500 with a length of the screw dia close to 2 in. We are now using a B+S and shaving these screws down. Don't know if this is a lot of help. But you're not in screw machine quantities. In general, screw machines have a difficult setups and they are used where you make 1000s of the same part. Me thinks you should be looking at a CNC lathe. Much more optimum for the quantities you're looking at. Of course you should also look at available skills. If you haven't got anybody with the skills and interest for CNC and you got a person that likes the manual screw machine setup work then I bet this great machine goes for a song. Karl |
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Thanks for taking the trouble to give us such a time consuming and
great reply. If we do get this we will be wanting those manuals you mentioned. We don't have the money for a CNC and even though the quantities were doing aren't large we have many different parts that are very similar and hopefully this would cut the set up time. I'm talking about parts for muzzleloaders such as jags and ramrod tips. Were close enough to go pick the thing up so hopefully your predictioin as to price will come true. Thanks alot Ken |
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Gunner wrote in
: On 7 Apr 2005 14:25:42 -0700, wrote: Were looking at one on ebay Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ASM5C 203 Item number: 7505934111 Is there anyone who can tell us its capability? Is this machine fully automatic? We were all wondering here what all the buttons were for. What we are wanting it for is making small quantities(2-300) of various small not too critical parts. Tolrances are usually + or - .005. We do alot of small screws 8-32,10-32 with head as big as .500 with a length of the screw dia close to 2 in. We are now using a B+S and shaving these screws down. A good post by Gunner. I set up a ton of jobs on these when I was a lot younger, so I'll add a bit and take issue here and there. The machine will be slower than a Brownie though. but quicker to set up. You may want to look for a used CNC Swiss, there are plenty of older clapped out machines that are still good enough to do what you want. Check he http://inv.automatics.com/q/webinv/000682=list,,0A8175 Caveat Emptor, go see it and make sure it runs. I'm familiar with some of the machines he has so feel free to send an e-mail. The addy is good as it is. The Asm is a fully automatic, microswitch programable automatic turret lathe with two direction cross slide. Its a very capable machine. 5c. 6 positions on the turret. Hydraulicly operated. In good condition, its capable of .0005 +/-. This machine when new would do much better than a thou total. I've done +/- .0002" jobs on it. Needs to warm up for at least two hours before it stops growing. We had auto timers on ours. The cycle start push button has a cage around it with cross holes. You can unscrew it some put a pin through the hole and screw it back down, the pin will hold the push button in. The timer will start the machine and the start button will get it cycling. Its an old machine, but they can run for days turning out parts. The problem is...setup time for 2 parts will eat your lunch. 500 is almost not worth setting it up, unless you are getting serious money for them. I disagree some. We used ours for quantities between 25-2000. Most jobs were 100-150 parts. It was rare that it would take more than two hours to set up a job. We ran fairly complex parts in 303 St. St. and some brass. Usually most every station had a tool mounted. But, there are tricks, skills, and tools required to be able to pull this off. Here's a for instance: The cross slide stops have a screw adjustment to get to size. Rather than just turn the screw some and measure, then turn it again. I would use a feeler gage that was equal to the depth of cut. I would run the slide up against the feeler, then turn the screw until the tool touched the bar. Tighten her up and you're done. If I needed to make a fine adjustment use a mag base and an indicator. You can waste a lot of time guessing. Hardinge used to sell a set-up bar for these to line up the floating drill holders to the spindle. Use a planer gage to set tool center height on the cross slide. There are dozens of other tricks to get you there. These machines were originally designed for lower volume jobs. Anything over 1,000 - 2,000 pcs. went on a Brownie. The bank of "switches" down at the lower right, are actually hydraulic trim valves for the turret, cross slide, automatic cutoff and so forth.. They adjust position and pressure. Also contain lamps to show which turret position is in operation Actually they adjust the feed rate. There are "pots" as well to adjust dwell. The console at high right contains machine on, cycle start, collet open/close, turret index, cross slide in/out, spindle start, coolant, etc etc Yup. The collet closer is by the headstock though. The verticle thingy on top of the head stock, is the automatic cutoff tool slide. A must have. But is there a Lipe bar feed included with this? You cant feed bar without a bar feed that pushes. It's not possible to "bar pull" with this machine. The square box directly behind the turret is the programmer. A bank of microswitchs with a roller that is coupled to the turret and clips are used to set the program. The biggest killer to using one of these, is its NOT a regular lathe. No provisions for manual operation, and after 30 yrs, the microswitches start to fail. They can be fixed, no problem, Hardinge stocks parts for them as well as its bigger brother, the AHC. and its kin the little brother the DSMA. No contouring, no single point threading. So you are looking at form tools, knee tools, recess tools, and die heads. I service these. They can be a stone bitch to figure out what is going wrong, and where, particularly if you have intermittend microswitches. Yup. Plus IIRC its an air over oil hydraulic system. Ick. My favorite thing to do with one that has gone problematic, is to strip all the **** off it, and retrofit it with an OmniTurn cnc package. www.omniturn.com The big advantage here is that you get a two axis gang tool table. Very flexible and accurate. Hardinge always made a good spindle so you'll end up with a decent machine. Then it becomes a new, far more capable machine. A damned good one too. But it will set you back about $22,000 give or take. on your iron. Id be terribly surprised if this machine goes for more than $500. Particularly in Kansas, which is not a hot bed of screwmachine shops. I'll be surprised if anyone bids on it. If I had the room and needed a hobby.... I have a number of these here in So. Cal. And when they run, they run parts very very well. But they are old, tired and slow to setup, and frankly nearly too slow for a production shop. Like old B&S screw machines, they are great to set up for a single recurring part, and then crank out parts when you get the order. They are barfeed machines. Typically, and here is an example. MK Products, the people who make the Cobramatic line of wire feed welders..they have a number of these doing nothing but turning out contact tips for mig welders. One machine per tip type. They have others that Ive retrofited to Omniturns, that crank out the gas parts, fittings etc etc. They can be set up in 10 minutes or less for the next part run. For long screws like that..few machines will give you good threads on a 2" screw using normal single point or thread laydown tooling, particularly a thread that small. It will likely have to be turned one at a time and then either threaded with a die head, or thread rolled on another machine. They can be pretty well rough blanked on the ASM or other machines. I probably could single point them on an Omniturn, but set up would need to be careful and speeds and feeds ( I&K values) chosen carefully. A die head is much simpler and faster for a long screw like this. The B&S is in many ways, similar to the ASM, so..shrug..you may not be gaining anything. Frankly...Ive seen these tossed into the dumpster because they are old, slow and tired. Average price is about $800-1500 local sale. Shipping is a killer. If its only worth a grand, and it costs $800 to ship it...shrug Its between 2000-2700 lbs IRRC. I remember when you couldn't find one of these used, and if you did it would sell for a small fortune. I like the automatic chuckers better (box cycles and single ponit threading) but the ASM is faster. If you decide to go for it, and it doesnt come with manuals, I can probably get you a full set of operator, setup and most importantly..maintainance manuals. Gunner . Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error" -- Dan |
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#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ?s
Could I get a copy of the maintainance manual for the ASM5C Hardinges I setup and Run 4 of these Thanks D Murphy Wrote: Gunner wrote in : - On 7 Apr 2005 14:25:42 -0700, wrote: - Were looking at one on ebay Hardinge Automatic Screw Machine ASM5C 203 Item number: 7505934111 Is there anyone who can tell us its capability? Is this machine fully automatic? We were all wondering here what all the buttons were for. What we are wanting it for is making small quantities(2-300) of various small not too critical parts. Tolrances are usually + or - .005. We do alot of small screws 8-32,10-32 with head as big as .500 with a length of the screw dia close to 2 in. We are now using a B+S and shaving these screws down.-- A good post by Gunner. I set up a ton of jobs on these when I was a lot younger, so I'll add a bit and take issue here and there. The machine will be slower than a Brownie though. but quicker to set up. You may want to look for a used CNC Swiss, there are plenty of older clapped out machines that are still good enough to do what you want. Check he http://inv.automatics.com/q/webinv/000682=list,,0A8175 Caveat Emptor, go see it and make sure it runs. I'm familiar with some of the machines he has so feel free to send an e-mail. The addy is good as it is. - The Asm is a fully automatic, microswitch programable automatic turret lathe with two direction cross slide. Its a very capable machine. 5c. 6 positions on the turret. Hydraulicly operated. In good condition, its capable of .0005 +/-.- This machine when new would do much better than a thou total. I've done +/- .0002" jobs on it. Needs to warm up for at least two hours before it stops growing. We had auto timers on ours. The cycle start push button has a cage around it with cross holes. You can unscrew it some put a pin through the hole and screw it back down, the pin will hold the push button in. The timer will start the machine and the start button will get it cycling. - Its an old machine, but they can run for days turning out parts. The problem is...setup time for 2 parts will eat your lunch. 500 is almost not worth setting it up, unless you are getting serious money for them.- I disagree some. We used ours for quantities between 25-2000. Most jobs were 100-150 parts. It was rare that it would take more than two hours to set up a job. We ran fairly complex parts in 303 St. St. and some brass. Usually most every station had a tool mounted. But, there are tricks, skills, and tools required to be able to pull this off. Here's a for instance: The cross slide stops have a screw adjustment to get to size. Rather than just turn the screw some and measure, then turn it again. I would use a feeler gage that was equal to the depth of cut. I would run the slide up against the feeler, then turn the screw until the tool touched the bar. Tighten her up and you're done. If I needed to make a fine adjustment use a mag base and an indicator. You can waste a lot of time guessing. Hardinge used to sell a set-up bar for these to line up the floating drill holders to the spindle. Use a planer gage to set tool center height on the cross slide. There are dozens of other tricks to get you there. These machines were originally designed for lower volume jobs. Anything over 1,000 - 2,000 pcs. went on a Brownie. - The bank of "switches" down at the lower right, are actually hydraulic trim valves for the turret, cross slide, automatic cutoff and so forth.. They adjust position and pressure. Also contain lamps to show which turret position is in operation- Actually they adjust the feed rate. There are "pots" as well to adjust dwell. - The console at high right contains machine on, cycle start, collet open/close, turret index, cross slide in/out, spindle start, coolant, etc etc- Yup. The collet closer is by the headstock though. - The verticle thingy on top of the head stock, is the automatic cutoff tool slide.- A must have. But is there a Lipe bar feed included with this? You cant feed bar without a bar feed that pushes. It's not possible to "bar pull" with this machine. - The square box directly behind the turret is the programmer. A bank of microswitchs with a roller that is coupled to the turret and clips are used to set the program. The biggest killer to using one of these, is its NOT a regular lathe. No provisions for manual operation, and after 30 yrs, the microswitches start to fail. They can be fixed, no problem, Hardinge stocks parts for them as well as its bigger brother, the AHC. and its kin the little brother the DSMA.- No contouring, no single point threading. So you are looking at form tools, knee tools, recess tools, and die heads. - I service these. They can be a stone bitch to figure out what is going wrong, and where, particularly if you have intermittend microswitches.- Yup. Plus IIRC its an air over oil hydraulic system. Ick. - My favorite thing to do with one that has gone problematic, is to strip all the **** off it, and retrofit it with an OmniTurn cnc package. www.omniturn.com- The big advantage here is that you get a two axis gang tool table. Very flexible and accurate. Hardinge always made a good spindle so you'll end up with a decent machine. - Then it becomes a new, far more capable machine. A damned good one too. But it will set you back about $22,000 give or take. on your iron. Id be terribly surprised if this machine goes for more than $500. Particularly in Kansas, which is not a hot bed of screwmachine shops.- I'll be surprised if anyone bids on it. If I had the room and needed a hobby.... - I have a number of these here in So. Cal. And when they run, they run parts very very well. But they are old, tired and slow to setup, and frankly nearly too slow for a production shop. Like old B&S screw machines, they are great to set up for a single recurring part, and then crank out parts when you get the order. They are barfeed machines. Typically, and here is an example. MK Products, the people who make the Cobramatic line of wire feed welders..they have a number of these doing nothing but turning out contact tips for mig welders. One machine per tip type. They have others that Ive retrofited to Omniturns, that crank out the gas parts, fittings etc etc. They can be set up in 10 minutes or less for the next part run. For long screws like that..few machines will give you good threads on a 2" screw using normal single point or thread laydown tooling, particularly a thread that small. It will likely have to be turned one at a time and then either threaded with a die head, or thread rolled on another machine. They can be pretty well rough blanked on the ASM or other machines. I probably could single point them on an Omniturn, but set up would need to be careful and speeds and feeds ( I&K values) chosen carefully. A die head is much simpler and faster for a long screw like this. The B&S is in many ways, similar to the ASM, so..shrug..you may not be gaining anything. Frankly...Ive seen these tossed into the dumpster because they are old, slow and tired. Average price is about $800-1500 local sale. Shipping is a killer. If its only worth a grand, and it costs $800 to ship it...shrug Its between 2000-2700 lbs IRRC.- I remember when you couldn't find one of these used, and if you did it would sell for a small fortune. I like the automatic chuckers better (box cycles and single ponit threading) but the ASM is faster. - If you decide to go for it, and it doesnt come with manuals, I can probably get you a full set of operator, setup and most importantly..maintainance manuals. Gunner . Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"- -- Dan -- Sonn |
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