"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:Umg0e.19547$qN3.11909@trndny01...

"SteveB" wrote in message

Heat a little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let
the solder flow and be "sucked into" the joint.


The opposite of how I was taught by a guy that soldered hundreds of joints
in heating coils all day long. Heat the fitting, not the tube to suck in
the solder.


As it turns out, it'll be easier than getting the plumber to actually call
back. This could be the best reason in the world to learn to do it myself.
Why should I pay someone who takes a week to call back, after supposedly
"checking to see who's got the regulators"?

"Joe S" wrote in message
news:wEg0e.8313$191.1480@trnddc02...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message
news:LNf0e.1054$AN1.206@fed1read03...

"HeatMan" wrote


I'll admit, back when I was starting out, I cooked a couple of copper
solder
joints. No amount of sanding and fluxing would bring one of those
back,
so
I had to add a coupling


Soldering copper pipe is SOOOOOOO easy once you get the hang of it. But
I
would say the most common mistakes are too much heat, poor cleaning, and
no flux.

It is a breeze with good cleaning, a little flux, and the right amount
of
heat. What a lot of people do is put the heat in the wrong place. Heat
a
little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let the
solder flow and be "sucked into" the joint.

Not rocket surgery, but a little tricky.

Steve



Sounds exactly the same as soldering wires & circuit boards properly.




Except ALOT easier and more forgiving than circuit boards. After you do
5 right, you'll know how easy it is.

I also recommend the wipe with a damp rag while the solder is still
molten....it gets rid of globs and looks SO professional.


I wear a pair of inexpensive cotton jersey gloves and wipe with them. As
long as I pay attention to the condition of the glove, I don't get burned
and the joints look good.

In article LNf0e.1054$AN1.206@fed1read03, "SteveB" wrote:

It is a breeze with good cleaning, a little flux, and the right amount of
heat. What a lot of people do is put the heat in the wrong place. Heat a
little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let the solder
flow and be "sucked into" the joint.

This wording could be misleading. Let's clarify: heat the *fitting* a little
bit away from the joint.

(It sounds like you're advising to heat the pipe, and that's wrong.)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article LNf0e.1054$AN1.206@fed1read03, "SteveB"
wrote:

It is a breeze with good cleaning, a little flux, and the right amount of
heat. What a lot of people do is put the heat in the wrong place. Heat a
little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let the
solder
flow and be "sucked into" the joint.

This wording could be misleading. Let's clarify: heat the *fitting* a
little
bit away from the joint.

(It sounds like you're advising to heat the pipe, and that's wrong.)

Of course. The pipe would act like a heat sink. Not only that, but you might
instinctively grab the pipe to steady yourself as you got off the ladder.
That would result in a stream of obscenities which would frighten the
children and **** off your wife. At that point, nobody knows what could
happen next.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:19:07 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:


"HeatMan" wrote

I'll admit, back when I was starting out, I cooked a couple of copper
solder
joints. No amount of sanding and fluxing would bring one of those back,
so
I had to add a coupling


Soldering copper pipe is SOOOOOOO easy once you get the hang of it. But I
would say the most common mistakes are too much heat, poor cleaning, and no
flux.

It is a breeze with good cleaning, a little flux, and the right amount of
heat. What a lot of people do is put the heat in the wrong place. Heat a
little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let the solder
flow and be "sucked into" the joint.

Not rocket surgery, but a little tricky.

Steve



The first time I sweated a joint, after I was done it looked like a
lead candle. Solder was everywhere running down the pipe. When it
was tested to see joint would even hold, it sprayed water everywhere.

Less is better.

thx,

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com

"The Real Tom" Tom @ www.Love-Calculators.com wrote in message
...


The first time I sweated a joint, after I was done it looked like a
lead candle. Solder was everywhere running down the pipe. When it
was tested to see joint would even hold, it sprayed water everywhere.

Less is better.

thx,


My guess: not a clean enough joint or not enough flux. Gobs of solder on the
outside of the joint have absolutely no effect on the watertight seal
necessary inside the joint. Some of my first joints were really globy, but
they sealed nicely (to this day).

I disagree. Heat the pipe first, then the fitting a little away from
the joint. Both the pipe and fitting should be hot so the solder will
adhere to both. Just don't overheat either one or you will "burn the
joint". You want the solder to suck into the joint by capillary
action.

Stretch

In article . com, "stretch" wrote:
I disagree. Heat the pipe first, then the fitting a little away from
the joint.

This is incorrect.

Both the pipe and fitting should be hot so the solder will
adhere to both. Just don't overheat either one or you will "burn the
joint". You want the solder to suck into the joint by capillary
action.

Right, and that's exactly why you heat the fitting only, and not the pipe: to
expand the fitting slightly so that capillary action will wick the solder into
the joint. If you heat the pipe, you risk expanding the pipe so much that it's
not possible to get enough solder into the joint to make a proper seal. There
is enough contact between the pipe and the fitting that heating only the
fitting gets the pipe plenty hot enough to do the job.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug,

That's funny.

When they first came out with copper tubing and fittings back in the
late 40s to early 50s, All the fittings were cast brass. They all had
grooves cut inside around the fitting, 1/2 way down the socket, because
they believed the solder would not draw in if the fitting was tight.
There was a hole drilled in the side of the fitting so you could feed
the solder into the groove. They made them that way for about 10
years. Then they started taking old joints apart and found that the
solder sucked up inside the socket even if the fitting was tight. Of
course it is not so easy to take the wrot fittings apart, so you don't
see that. When I started plumbing, my grandfather had us young guys
clean old brass fittings, because in those days we salvaged them and
used them over if they were in good shape (he learned to do that during
WWII because it was hard to get new fittings and pipe at any price).
So I spent my spare tine taking old joints apart and saving the
fittings. The solder sucked up inside the tight ones just fine. Now
we have forgotten that. Maybe you should start buying fittings with
grooves inside them again.

Heat the tubing a little, then the fitting, then apply the solder.
Then take it apart. You will find the solder sucked inside just fine.
If you are brazing and don't heat the pipe at all, you will get a very
shallow joint. If you take the joints apart, you will see what I mean.

Stretch

In article .com, "stretch" wrote:
Doug,

That's funny.

Maybe you could quote a little context when you post, so that we don't have to
guess at what you're talking about?

[snip ancient history]

Heat the tubing a little, then the fitting, then apply the solder.
Then take it apart. You will find the solder sucked inside just fine.
If you are brazing and don't heat the pipe at all, you will get a very
shallow joint. If you take the joints apart, you will see what I mean.

You can make your soldered joints any way you like. But you should realize
that you're doing newbies a disservice when you advise them to heat the pipe
and the fitting: that's *not* the best way to make the joints. The joints are
easier to make, and less likely to leak, when only the fitting is heated. It's
just plain silly to advise someone who's never soldered copper before to heat
the pipe first. There is a better and easier way to do it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, "stretch" wrote:

Doug,

That's funny.


Maybe you could quote a little context when you post, so that we don't have to
guess at what you're talking about?

[snip ancient history]

Heat the tubing a little, then the fitting, then apply the solder.
Then take it apart. You will find the solder sucked inside just fine.
If you are brazing and don't heat the pipe at all, you will get a very
shallow joint. If you take the joints apart, you will see what I mean.


You can make your soldered joints any way you like. But you should realize
that you're doing newbies a disservice when you advise them to heat the pipe
and the fitting: that's *not* the best way to make the joints. The joints are
easier to make, and less likely to leak, when only the fitting is heated. It's
just plain silly to advise someone who's never soldered copper before to heat
the pipe first. There is a better and easier way to do it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

I've commented about this before, most of the time your way will work
but a newbie is more likely to screw up heating the fitting only.
If the interior pipe is not up to temp the solder will not amalgamate
with the pipe. The result is a weak joint and sooner or later a leak.
My formal training comes from a Carrier Corp. factory training class,
with an instructor who spent years on their condenser assembly line.
To sum up the two days I spent on this part of the training.
Use plenty of torch, start heating the pipe, keep the torch moving,
when the pipe is hot move the torch onto the fitting and use the flame
to draw the solder into the fitting.
Your way may be easier but it's not better.
Dave

In article , Dave Morrison wrote:

I've commented about this before, most of the time your way will work
but a newbie is more likely to screw up heating the fitting only.
If the interior pipe is not up to temp the solder will not amalgamate
with the pipe. The result is a weak joint and sooner or later a leak.

Which is exactly why you heat the fitting, and apply the solder to the pipe.
If the pipe isn't hot enough, the solder won't melt, and you keep heating.
Nothing difficult about that...

My formal training comes from a Carrier Corp. factory training class,
with an instructor who spent years on their condenser assembly line.
To sum up the two days I spent on this part of the training.
Use plenty of torch, start heating the pipe, keep the torch moving,
when the pipe is hot move the torch onto the fitting and use the flame
to draw the solder into the fitting.
Your way may be easier but it's not better.

Easier *is* better. :-)
Dave


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

....snip disc^h^h^h^h argument over "pipe-first" or "fitting-only" solder
technique...

I'll side w/ Dave here, Doug...similar experience w/ training for
production work, same technique.

The amount of heating required to heat the pipe to solder-melt point
isn't enough to expand the pipe to the point of constricting the gap
between it and the pipe and it's much easier to ensure both are hot
enough more quickly by adding hit to the pipe initially rather than
relying solely on the (relatively) poor conduction across that same gap
between the two not fully contacting surfaces...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
...snip disc^h^h^h^h argument over "pipe-first" or "fitting-only" solder
technique...

I'll side w/ Dave here, Doug...similar experience w/ training for
production work, same technique.

The amount of heating required to heat the pipe to solder-melt point
isn't enough to expand the pipe to the point of constricting the gap
between it and the pipe and it's much easier to ensure both are hot
enough more quickly by adding hit to the pipe initially rather than
relying solely on the (relatively) poor conduction across that same gap
between the two not fully contacting surfaces...

I'm averaging everything I've read here. The practice begins this afternoon,
and it's show time tomorrow. I'll let you all know if the basement's dry, or
if I'm online looking to buy trout to stock my new pond. :-)

You can make your soldered joints any way you like. But you should
realize
that you're doing newbies a disservice when you advise them to heat the
pipe
and the fitting: that's *not* the best way to make the joints. The
joints are
easier to make, and less likely to leak, when only the fitting is
heated. It's
just plain silly to advise someone who's never soldered copper before
to heat
the pipe first. There is a better and easier way to do it.

--
Doug, the people who make copper fittings and the people who make
soldering alloys do test soldering all the time. They use different
methods to see what is the best way. Then they cut the joints apart to
see which way makes the best joints. They also pressure test ant
stress test the joints till they fail. I have been to a number of
seminars in addition to doing soldering and brazing for the last 35
years. The research shows that it is best to heat the pipe first, then
the fitting. Keep the torch moving all the time. That will make the
strongest, leak free joints. The best way to start is to do it the
best way.

Stretch

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
...snip disc^h^h^h^h argument over "pipe-first" or "fitting-only" solder
technique...

I'll side w/ Dave here, Doug...similar experience w/ training for
production work, same technique.

The amount of heating required to heat the pipe to solder-melt point
isn't enough to expand the pipe to the point of constricting the gap
between it and the pipe and it's much easier to ensure both are hot
enough more quickly by adding hit to the pipe initially rather than
relying solely on the (relatively) poor conduction across that same gap
between the two not fully contacting surfaces...

I'm averaging everything I've read here. The practice begins this afternoon,
and it's show time tomorrow. I'll let you all know if the basement's dry, or
if I'm online looking to buy trout to stock my new pond. :-)



Good luck, it really isn't that hard...like most things, people have
their own preferences...

BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when
the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the
differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating
pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.

In article , wrote:

BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when
the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the
differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating
pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.

Right - but if the pipe is heated, and the fitting not heated (or heated less
than the pipe), then the gap *will* close (or at least shrink), and then
expand as the joint cools. That's not good.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Red Cloud© wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:08:28 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:

BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when
the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the
differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating
pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.

Right - but if the pipe is heated, and the fitting not heated (or heated less
than the pipe), then the gap *will* close (or at least shrink), and then
expand as the joint cools. That's not good.

Never mind the "yeah, but's" and the "what if's".

You can not make a good joint unless BOTH the pipe and the fitting are hot
enough to melt the solder. If either of them is not at least that hot, you will
not obtain a good joint. PERIOD!

Nobody here ever contended otherwise. What's got your panties in a wad?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Red Cloud© wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:12:53 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Red Cloud©
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:08:28 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:

BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when
the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the
differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating
pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.

Right - but if the pipe is heated, and the fitting not heated (or heated
less
than the pipe), then the gap *will* close (or at least shrink), and then
expand as the joint cools. That's not good.

Never mind the "yeah, but's" and the "what if's".

You can not make a good joint unless BOTH the pipe and the fitting are hot
enough to melt the solder. If either of them is not at least that hot, you
will
not obtain a good joint. PERIOD!

Nobody here ever contended otherwise. What's got your panties in a wad?

Read your own posts

Maybe you need to read them. You obviously missed something.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Red Cloud© wrote:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:20:11 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Red Cloud©
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:12:53 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Red Cloud©
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:08:28 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when
the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the
differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating
pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.

Right - but if the pipe is heated, and the fitting not heated (or heated
less
than the pipe), then the gap *will* close (or at least shrink), and then
expand as the joint cools. That's not good.

Never mind the "yeah, but's" and the "what if's".

You can not make a good joint unless BOTH the pipe and the fitting are hot
enough to melt the solder. If either of them is not at least that hot, you
will
not obtain a good joint. PERIOD!

Nobody here ever contended otherwise. What's got your panties in a wad?

Read your own posts, dumbass.

Maybe you need to read them. You obviously missed something.

Are you for real?

Bye-bye.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:Umg0e.19547$qN3.11909@trndny01...

"SteveB" wrote in message

Heat a little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let
the solder flow and be "sucked into" the joint.


The opposite of how I was taught by a guy that soldered hundreds of joints
in heating coils all day long. Heat the fitting, not the tube to suck in
the solder.


As it turns out, it'll be easier than getting the plumber to actually call
back. This could be the best reason in the world to learn to do it myself.
Why should I pay someone who takes a week to call back, after supposedly
"checking to see who's got the regulators"?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:Umg0e.19547$qN3.11909@trndny01...

"SteveB" wrote in message

Heat a little away from the joint so that you heat up the pipe, and let
the solder flow and be "sucked into" the joint.


The opposite of how I was taught by a guy that soldered hundreds of joints
in heating coils all day long. Heat the fitting, not the tube to suck in
the solder.


As it turns out, it'll be easier than getting the plumber to actually call
back. This could be the best reason in the world to learn to do it myself.
Why should I pay someone who takes a week to call back, after supposedly
"checking to see who's got the regulators"?

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
...snip disc^h^h^h^h argument over "pipe-first" or "fitting-only" solder
technique...

I'll side w/ Dave here, Doug...similar experience w/ training for
production work, same technique.

The amount of heating required to heat the pipe to solder-melt point
isn't enough to expand the pipe to the point of constricting the gap
between it and the pipe and it's much easier to ensure both are hot
enough more quickly by adding hit to the pipe initially rather than
relying solely on the (relatively) poor conduction across that same gap
between the two not fully contacting surfaces...

I'm averaging everything I've read here. The practice begins this afternoon,
and it's show time tomorrow. I'll let you all know if the basement's dry, or
if I'm online looking to buy trout to stock my new pond. :-)

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:01:05 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I'm trying to decide whether this would be a good time to learn how to
solder copper pipes. Here's the scenario:

Point your forefingers at each other, similar to the way they'd end up if
they were stuck into one of those Chinese handcuffs kids get at birthday
parties. Now, move them apart about a foot. They represent two 3/4" pipes
facing each other, on the basement ceiling. Right now, that gap between them
is occupied by a water pressure regulator I need to replace. The regulator
has female fittings molded into its housing, and the pipes have male
fittings. The pipes continue UNINTERRUPTED for 10 feet on either side, so
I'm guessing the pipes were not rotated into the regulator. Rather, I think
the regulator's female fittings may be threaded in such a way that rotating
the whole regulator tightens both sides at once.

Or: the male pipe fittings, which are separate pieces from the pipes
themselves, were cranked into place, and then those fittings were welded to
the pipes.

Based on what I see, anything that would need to be soldered is plenty far
away from anything heat sensitive, like beams, wires, etc.

My question (which requires psychic powers to answer):

On a "trickiness for beginners" scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (check your flood
insurance), where does it sound like this job falls? A 3x margin of error is
acceptable for all guesses, and horror stories are more than welcome. Bring
it on!


you can "sweat a joint"! It's not too hard. Go to Home Depot and get a
roll of solder, a wire brush tool to scratch the end of the pipe or a
piece of grit cloth to rub the end of the pipe. Stick the wire brush
inside the end of your fitting to rough it up also. Then apply the
"flux" to both surfaces to be joined. Next, uncoil about 2 or 3 inches
of solder from the roll...just straighten out a piece about three
inches long. It don't have to be exactly three inches...just close.
Make sure you have blown out the line and there is no water in the
pipe within 50 feet of the spot where you are soldering...figure out
where the water line comes into the house...if an intelligent plumber
put it in you will have a valve in the line you can open up to drain
the line...or you could just open the spigot on the front of your
house and drain the water out of the line...after you have cut the
water off at your meter box or well. Now go back to that joint, light
your Bernzomatic torch and heat the joint for ten or fifteen seconds
and then just quickly touch that three inch segment of solder to the
seam in that joint you just heated up...you will see that solder just
quickly dissolve and absorb up into that joint! You have just "sweated
a joint"! If you don't get all the water out of the pipe you can heat
and heat until you actually burn the pipe all the way through and the
joint just won't absorb the solder.

Bill
(weekend plumber)