The house we recently purchased has a 1 year old gas hot water heater
that appears to be undersized for the house.

The house has 5-6 bedrooms and we are a family of 6, yet the tank is
only 50 gallons. We typically run out of hot water after 1-2 baths and
a couple of showers.

Seems to me we have a couple of choices:
1. Take fewer, shorter, and more spaced out baths and showers
(not acceptable per my wife and kids

2. Replace with new larger tank (100 gallons?)
(however, existing unit is almost new, so this sounds a bit
wasteful)

3. Get a second hot water heater
(Can this be done? Can you just get another storage tank or do you
need 2 separate full heaters? Are they connected in series or parallel?)

4. Get some type of booster such as an auxilliary tankless heater?
(Is there some type of booster that only comes on when the main
tank is depleted and that would not be too costly to purchase or
install?)

Assuming that #1 is not an option (at least per my wife), what
approach would you recommend?

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:34:35 GMT, blueman wrote:

The house we recently purchased has a 1 year old gas hot water heater
that appears to be undersized for the house.

The house has 5-6 bedrooms and we are a family of 6, yet the tank is
only 50 gallons. We typically run out of hot water after 1-2 baths and
a couple of showers.

Seems to me we have a couple of choices:
1. Take fewer, shorter, and more spaced out baths and showers
(not acceptable per my wife and kids

2. Replace with new larger tank (100 gallons?)
(however, existing unit is almost new, so this sounds a bit
wasteful)

3. Get a second hot water heater
(Can this be done? Can you just get another storage tank or do you
need 2 separate full heaters? Are they connected in series or parallel?)

4. Get some type of booster such as an auxilliary tankless heater?
(Is there some type of booster that only comes on when the main
tank is depleted and that would not be too costly to purchase or
install?)

Assuming that #1 is not an option (at least per my wife), what
approach would you recommend?


Without knowing your specifics, option #2 is probably your least cost
and most efficient (and space saving) option. Make sure that it is
also gas and check the recovery times before you purchase.

Come to think of it, the showers should not place much of a load on a
gas hot water heater. Are you using low-flow shower heads? These
are limited to 2.5 gallons per minute. Showers generally use less hot
water than baths so if you are going to change your lifestyle and tell
the family to take more showers - less baths, that would be one thing
to try.

Drain the sediment from your existing hot water heater with the valve
provided. You might get a marginal improvement in the recovey time.

Option # 3 - Second heaters are sometimes installed in series with an
existing tank (if local codes permit). However, most of the time you
will then have two large tanks of standing hot water and the losses
(through the tank and the pipes at the top) that are characteristic
with this configuration. If you go this route, you might want to make
the first retrofit tank in the loop electric and put a timer on it so
that it only operates during your (presumably morning) peak demand
times. Gas heaters are cheaper and more efficient, but it is
virtually impossible to put a timer on a standard gas heater with a
standing pilot.

Option #4 - Having a tankless heater will be expensive in terms of
capital cost for the BTU's and flow rate that you require for your
peak hot water demand. If you can configure one bathroom to use the
tankless heater and you have room for it and the required exhaust,
then perhaps it would work for you. (electric tankless is not
recommended unless you live in someplace like Washington State next to
a hydroelectric dam and your electricity is dirt cheap).

If it were me, and none of the cheap solutions were viable, I would go
with option #2 as the least cost option.

Beachcomber

Recover time and Btu input are what is critical, you dont need
100gallon just a proper 50 for your load. It is possible it is not set
up right the gas line may be to small or something else not giving full
gas flow if it is in fact a properly sized heater. Flow restrictors on
sinks and showers and a good tech would be a starting point.

m Ransley wrote:
Recover time and Btu input are what is critical, you dont need
100gallon just a proper 50 for your load. It is possible it is not set
up right the gas line may be to small or something else not giving
full gas flow if it is in fact a properly sized heater. Flow
restrictors on sinks and showers and a good tech would be a starting
point.

I agree, but I would add one additional possibility. While not likely
on a one year old heater, it is possible the dip tube is defective and that
will greatly reduce capacity.

That 50 gal tank should be able to handle your needs unless there is a
mechanic problem of some kind.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Joseph,

I disagree with both you and Mr. Ransely. He has a family of 6 and 50
gallons of hot water in the morning. He'll run out of hot water by the
fourth shower. By the sixth shower the water will be very cold. He can
adjust the thermostat to make the water hotter but this can be very
dangerous or he can find more hot water. I think he needs a bigger water
heater. A 6 bedroom house should have a water heater which will supply
enough water for 10 people in my opinion.

Dave M.

Use a lower flow shower head or turn the know up on the hot water
heater. f you haven't already insulated all exposed hot water pipes,
do that first. When I insulated my hot water pipes (just the exposed
ones in the basement) it was the equivalent of turning up the hot water
heater a notch.

wrote:

Use a lower flow shower head or turn the know up on the hot water heater...

Or add a greywater heat exchanger...

10 SCREEN 9:KEY OFF:PI=4*ATN(1)
20 DOP=.752'pipe od (inches)
30 DIP=.622'pipe id (inches)
40 NTURNS=34.5/DOP'number of turns in layer
50 RLOOP=23.5/2'loop radius (inches)
60 CLOOP=2*PI*RLOOP/12'loop od (feet)
70 LLAYER=NTURNS*CLOOP'length per layer (feet)
80 L=LLAYER
90 PRINT 1,RLOOP/DOP,NTURNS,LLAYER
100 RLOOP=RLOOP-DOP'loop radius (inches)
110 CLOOP=2*PI*RLOOP/12'loop od (feet)
120 LLAYER=NTURNS*CLOOP'length per layer (feet)
130 L=L+LLAYER
140 PRINT 2,RLOOP/DOP,NTURNS,LLAYER
150 RLOOP=RLOOP-DOP'loop radius (inches)
160 CLOOP=2*PI*RLOOP/12'loop od (feet)
170 LLAYER=NTURNS*CLOOP'length per layer (feet)
180 L=L+LLAYER
190 PRINT 3,RLOOP/DOP,NTURNS,LLAYER
200 AP=AP+L*PI*(DOP+DIP)/2/12'pipe area (ft^2)
210 VP=VP+L*PI*(DIP/2/12)^2*7.48'pipe volume (gallons)
220 FLOW=1.25'gpm
230 LL=L/3'average layer pipe length (feet)
240 FL=FLOW/3'average flow per layer (gpm)
250 PL=.0004227*LL*FL^1.852*DIP^-4.871'Hazen-Williams pressure loss (psi)
260 PRINT L,AP,VP,PL
270 C=60*FLOW*8.33'burst heat capacity rate (Btu/h-F)
280 NTU=30*AP/C'burst NTU for counterflow heat exchanger
290 E=NTU/(NTU+1)'burst heat exchanger efficacy
300 TCI=55'fresh water inlet temp (F)
310 TSH=110'shower head outlet temp (F)
320 THI=105'greywater inlet (shower drain) temp (F)
330 THO=TCI+E*(THI-TCI)'burst fresh water outlet temp (F)
340 ESAVINGS=100*(1-(TSH-THO)/(TSH-TCI))'burst % savings
350 VHW=120'daily hot water consumption (gallons)
360 CKWH=.1'$/kWh
370 DSAVINGS=365*ESAVINGS/100*VHW*8.33*(TSH-TCI)/3412*CKWH'$/year savings
380 PRINT NTU,E,THO,ESAVINGS,DSAVINGS
390 C=VHW*8.33/24'continuous heat capacity rate (Btu/h-F)
400 NTU=30*AP/C'continuous NTU for counterflow heat exchanger
410 E=NTU/(NTU+1)'continuous heat exchanger efficacy
420 THO=TCI+E*(THI-TCI)'continuous fresh water outlet temp (F)
430 ESAVINGS=100*(1-(TSH-THO)/(TSH-TCI))'continuous % savings
440 DSAVINGS=365*ESAVINGS/100*VHW*8.33*(TSH-TCI)/3412*CKWH'$/year savings
450 PRINT NTU,E,THO,ESAVINGS,DSAVINGS

1 15.625 45.87767 282.2525
2 14.625 45.87767 264.1884
3 13.625 45.87767 246.1242

792.5651 142.5478 12.50964 .2229677

6.84503 .8725308 98.62654 79.32098 466.5099
102.6754 .9903546 104.5177 90.03223 529.5059

Nick

On 2005-03-09, David Martel wrote:

He can adjust the thermostat to make the water hotter but this can
be very dangerous

What about turning up the water heater temperature and then installing
a tempering valve on the hot water outlet to reduce the temperature?
Is this a reasonable idea?

Cheers, Wayne

"blueman" wrote in message
4. Get some type of booster such as an auxilliary tankless heater?
(Is there some type of booster that only comes on when the main
tank is depleted and that would not be too costly to purchase or
install?)

The tanklless setup is a good option. Depending on the use patterns, you may
want to convert the most used bathroom to that style and leave the 50 gallon
tank for the rest. There was a thread here yesterday about that type of
heater and it pointed to a web page for more information.

Why store and heat more water that will sit there all day?

Dave you have never seen what an apt building uses I take it. I have 35
tennants on a 90 gallon 235000 btu AO Smith , always plenty of hot
water, even with 15 showers running at the same time. Heating 100
gallons is not as efficient as a good H. O. 50 for a home. As I sad it
is all about Btu and Temp rise. Not your HD cheapie of course. But not
knowing what he has it just may not be working right ex. gas line to
small

"blueman" wrote in message
...
The house we recently purchased has a 1 year old gas hot water heater
that appears to be undersized for the house.

The house has 5-6 bedrooms and we are a family of 6, yet the tank is
only 50 gallons. We typically run out of hot water after 1-2 baths and
a couple of showers.

Seems to me we have a couple of choices:
1. Take fewer, shorter, and more spaced out baths and showers
(not acceptable per my wife and kids

I assume that you have raised the setting on the heater to the hottest
setting.
Install flow restricters on the showers that the children use.

When I was married with 3 kids we had a 30 gallon heater. The kids got 5
minutes in the shower and 10 if they took a bath. I put the heater on max
just before the first shower.


2. Replace with new larger tank (100 gallons?)
(however, existing unit is almost new, so this sounds a bit
wasteful)
Better check to see that your gas line will handle the additional load. More
storage is a poor answer in my opninion

3. Get a second hot water heater
(Can this be done? Can you just get another storage tank or do you
need 2 separate full heaters? Are they connected in series or
parallel?)

This will be complicated and can not be answered except by inspection.

4. Get some type of booster such as an auxilliary tankless heater?
(Is there some type of booster that only comes on when the main
tank is depleted and that would not be too costly to purchase or
install?)

You do not mention where the water heater is. If it is outside, insulate it.
especially the top with at least R-6. That will slow down the losses.
Insulate the hot water line at the heater and anywhere else you can easily
get at it.

Assuming that #1 is not an option (at least per my wife), what
approach would you recommend?

If you realy find your unit will not handle it and it operates
correctly look into a Rinnai tankless, you cant run out of hot water and
will save in its operation as it is more efficient than regular water
heaters. But first try what everyone has mentioned. Shower restrictors
and showering first before running a tub, and put a time limit on
showering, hot water can easily use 30% of your gas usage even if you
live in a cold climate.

(m Ransley) writes:
Recover time and Btu input are what is critical, you dont need
100gallon just a proper 50 for your load. It is possible it is not set
up right the gas line may be to small or something else not giving full
gas flow if it is in fact a properly sized heater. Flow restrictors on
sinks and showers and a good tech would be a starting point.

I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

Ransley,

I don't believe that this is an apartment building, it is a house with 6
bedrooms. The water heater is undersized for the morning use.
Let's look at your claim for the apartment. You have 90 gals. of hot
water (125 degrees?). With 15 showers running and low flow restrictors in
place you'll probably draw 30 gals of water out of the heater in each
minute. Your water heater will be out of hot water in 3 minutes (a very
short shower) unless you can put a lot of heat into that unit very quickly.
You can post about Btu and temp rise but I don't find you credible.

Dave M.

Well Dave you ought to see what apartment buildings use . Go prove it to
your self or prove me wrong . 200000 btu+ and a 2"-3" water inlet
systems are normal for 14 unit buildings. I cant say when people shower
, but there is never a hot water complaint. These are not HD heaters
but 1500-3000$ units . high output.

I'm not sure the apt style WH is the correct solution for OP
homeowner.

That said Ransley numbers seem credible to me, the unit he describes
can deliver about 4 gpm of water from 55F to 125F.

It's like the best of both worlds; 90gal storage & 4 gpm

I've got a house with a 75 gal WH (about 75,000btu/hr I think ) serves
3 full baths & you definitely don't want to be the 4th or 5th shower
(esp if those early ones were"longish")

It also serves a 75 gallon spa tub that it cannot fill with premixed
water; you've got to start out with all hot & as themp falls it just
turns out right.

It's all about the BTU's per minute demanded & the available supply;
you've got to store, be able to generate it or reduce instaneous
demand.

Existing gas line will determine what capacity is available.

I've toyed with OP's Option #4 but the cost of tankless has detered me.
My idea would be set the temperature of the tank heater above the
temperature of the tankless. The tankless would come on only when
needed.

This kinda defeats the purpose of the tankless but the problem with
tankless is when current demand exceeds capacity you no longer get "hot
water" you get "warmed water".

Most tankless can only supply 2 major users at the same;

two showers
shower & bath
shower & washer
etc

as soon as you add the 3rd user on the tankless, performance will
suffer

Maybe tank + tankless makes sense; I've haven't been sure enough (or
cold showered enough) to do anything about

The Takagi T-KJr. Tankless Water Heater is a lower capacity (140,000
btu/hr max) & lower priced unit that might make sense.

cheers
Bob

"blueman" wrote in message
...
(m Ransley) writes:
Recover time and Btu input are what is critical, you dont need
100gallon just a proper 50 for your load. It is possible it is not set
up right the gas line may be to small or something else not giving full
gas flow if it is in fact a properly sized heater. Flow restrictors on
sinks and showers and a good tech would be a starting point.

I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

This is Turtle.

Some Quick Recovery runs about 1 ga. per minute.

TURTLE

"David Martel" writes:
Ransley,

I don't believe that this is an apartment building, it is a house with 6
bedrooms. The water heater is undersized for the morning use.
Let's look at your claim for the apartment. You have 90 gals. of hot
water (125 degrees?). With 15 showers running and low flow restrictors in
place you'll probably draw 30 gals of water out of the heater in each
minute. Your water heater will be out of hot water in 3 minutes (a very
short shower) unless you can put a lot of heat into that unit very quickly.
You can post about Btu and temp rise but I don't find you credible.

Dave M.

Taking the numbers a bit further, the recovery rate (by my
calculations) would only give you about 7.2 gallons/minute or enough
for about 3.5 showers steady state after the first 3 minutes depleted
the existing tank.

I did:
(235000 BTU/hour)/(60 minutes/hour)/(8.33 lb/gallon of water)/(65
degree temp difference between 45degree source and desired 100 degree
shower)
= 7.23 gallons/minute

This is an optimistic case, assuming 100% efficiency and no issues of
mixing new cold water in at a faster pace than heat can be applied.

"David Martel" wrote in message
ink.net...
Joseph,

I disagree with both you and Mr. Ransely. He has a family of 6 and 50
gallons of hot water in the morning. He'll run out of hot water by the
fourth shower. By the sixth shower the water will be very cold. He can
adjust the thermostat to make the water hotter but this can be very
dangerous or he can find more hot water. I think he needs a bigger water
heater. A 6 bedroom house should have a water heater which will supply
enough water for 10 people in my opinion.

Dave M.


I agree with David on this.
We have a 40 gallon gas water heater and it is barely good for two showers,
But then we have a high flow shower head too. Even before with a water
saving shower head it was not unusual to run out on a long shower. my
daughter will drain the heater all by herself with her 1/2 hour showers!
Water shaving shower heads would be a must with 6 showers every morning,
plus a higher capacity heater. And shorten the time in the shower!
Greg

"blueman" wrote in message
...
(m Ransley) writes:
Recover time and Btu input are what is critical, you dont need
100gallon just a proper 50 for your load. It is possible it is not set
up right the gas line may be to small or something else not giving full
gas flow if it is in fact a properly sized heater. Flow restrictors on
sinks and showers and a good tech would be a starting point.

I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

Pretty typical heater. Most 50 gallon heaters will only recover as much as a
40 gallon.
You need what my boss has! He has a Buderus boiler with a add on heat
exchanger for domestic hot water. The recovery rate on his is 258 gallons
per hour! He says he NEVER runs out of hot water.
http://www.buderus.net/Default.aspx?...purpose&mcid=8
You better have some cash stashed away!
Greg

Bob,

Unfortunately Ransley's numbers were 200000+ Btu. This isn't helpful
since a Btu is the amount of energy needed to raise 1 lb. of water 1 deg. F.
If he had reported Btu/hr. his number might be helpful. Let's go on the
assumption that he meant Btu/hr. Lets also assume that the water enters the
water heater at 50 deg. and is heated to 125 deg.. I think a gal of water is
around 8 lbs. so the system is capable of heating about 330 gals of water in
an hour from cold to hot. Not bad but it can't keep up with the consumption
of 30 gals of hot water/min. in his shower example since it is producing 5
gals of hot water/min. (I'm rounding a lot of numbers here).
Ransley means to be helpful but frequently doesn't recognize when he is
misguided. His example doesn't seem to work and his example has nothing to
do with the OP's problem.

Dave M.

blueman wrote:
The house we recently purchased has a 1 year old gas hot water heater
that appears to be undersized for the house.

The house has 5-6 bedrooms and we are a family of 6, yet the tank is
only 50 gallons. We typically run out of hot water after 1-2 baths and
a couple of showers.


I'm assuming you have merged two families.

If not, what's different about your new house than your old one?

Get one of the kids to demonstrate how he takes a shower. I'll bet he turns
the hot all the way up and adjusts the temperature with the cold tap. Show
him another way.

blueman writes:
I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

Actually, burner is 40K BTU with 36.8 gallon/hour recovery rate.
Is this considered a pretty "measly" rate?

Dave-
I agree, he was sloppy with his units but since he said it cost ~$1500
to 3000, was fed with a 2" water line & was meant for an apt. I
figured it 200,000+ BTU per hour.

I based my calcs on that & factored in the efficiency.

IMO your assumption of 15 instanteous showers is a bit unrealistic.

Based on average shower length & the temporal distribution of shower
start times you could develop a more reasonable estimate of the
sustained short term hot water demand. I agree that a 5 bedroom / 6
person household needs either; a hot water warden or more hot water
generation / capacity.

I've got a 4 (sometimes 5) bedroom / 3 full bath house on a 75 gallon
LP WH; when there's lots of showering going on I make sure I'm not
last.

We all kind of got off topic...............what is the best solution(s)
for the OP?

Does anyone have a comment of the tankless fed by a medium sized tank
WH; use the tankless as a "peaking unit"

or does it make sense to feed the tank with the tankless but change the
control method so the tankless only helps when "needed"??

I have not thought this out completely but my gut tells that just get a
bigger (or more) tank style WH's is not the best approach. Also the
tankless units are big $'s and they only support 2 instantanous uses;
as soon as three showers are running you're in trouble.

I guess demand reduction (shorter showers, low flow heads & shower
spacing) is needed unless capital equipment & energy usage $'s are no
concern.

cheers
Bob

I guess you guys havnt been in many apt buildings of 12-14 units
200000 - 235000 Btu 100 gallon tanks are the norm and do the job fine,
even heating cold midwest water in winter. I dont know the recovery rate
, and these are 2" incomming high recovery heaters costing 3-4 times as
much as a HD 100 gallon. I truely dought full loads from all
aptartments are ever reached. I was just pointing out that 100 gallon
tanks can be overkill for a house and higher output smaller tanks should
be looked at first , just as one person said that he should put in a
100 gallon, there are options to look at. There are tankless by Rinnai
that will handle his needs. There are tankless that are being refitted
into apt buildings, sometimes 2-4 are ganged together. I beleive Rinnai
has units up to near 280000 btu. With some restriction the 180000 btu
Rinnai will handle 3 showers. There again it depends on incomming water
temp. I go from a low of 35f to 72f incomming. At 70 f my small 117000
bosch could easily handle 2 showers that are restricted, I know ive
tried it. All I need for a shower is 102f with no cold added. I know
this may not help the OP , I first tried to point out conservation and
the possibility his unit simply may be under fed gas or not operating
right. I have also seen bad thermostats that dont cut in till temp has
dropped very low 15-20f , hurting immediate recovery for constant use.
He could possibly use a secondary tankless but for a bit more Rinnai has
a model that will work for all his needs .

"blueman" wrote in message
...
blueman writes:
I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

Actually, burner is 40K BTU with 36.8 gallon/hour recovery rate.
Is this considered a pretty "measly" rate?

This is Turtle.

Well it seems to be one of the slowest rates that I have seen but there could be
somewhere something slower. The Norm is [ 40 Gal. recovers in 40 minutes. ] [
50 Gal. -- 50 minutes. ] [ 30 Gal. -- 30 minutes. ] .

TURTLE

I am doing a 4 plex with 2 beds in each unit. I use a single Super Store
indirect 40 gallon tank. The boiler running the building has domestic
priority and has an output of around 230 k btus. It works. If someone starts
running out they shorten their shower time. If I were doing it again I would
probably go to a 50 gallon tank. This is in Northeast and I have heard no
complaints this winter.

Oreo

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dave-
I agree, he was sloppy with his units but since he said it cost ~$1500
to 3000, was fed with a 2" water line & was meant for an apt. I
figured it 200,000+ BTU per hour.

I based my calcs on that & factored in the efficiency.

IMO your assumption of 15 instanteous showers is a bit unrealistic.

Based on average shower length & the temporal distribution of shower
start times you could develop a more reasonable estimate of the
sustained short term hot water demand. I agree that a 5 bedroom / 6
person household needs either; a hot water warden or more hot water
generation / capacity.

I've got a 4 (sometimes 5) bedroom / 3 full bath house on a 75 gallon
LP WH; when there's lots of showering going on I make sure I'm not
last.

We all kind of got off topic...............what is the best solution(s)
for the OP?

Does anyone have a comment of the tankless fed by a medium sized tank
WH; use the tankless as a "peaking unit"

or does it make sense to feed the tank with the tankless but change the
control method so the tankless only helps when "needed"??

I have not thought this out completely but my gut tells that just get a
bigger (or more) tank style WH's is not the best approach. Also the
tankless units are big $'s and they only support 2 instantanous uses;
as soon as three showers are running you're in trouble.

I guess demand reduction (shorter showers, low flow heads & shower
spacing) is needed unless capital equipment & energy usage $'s are no
concern.

cheers
Bob

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:14:23 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:


"blueman" wrote in message
...
blueman writes:
I believe the label says that it has a recovery rate of 36 gallon/hour
and that the burner is 70K BTU. Is this considered a "good" recovery
rate or is it undersized for the load I describe above?

Actually, burner is 40K BTU with 36.8 gallon/hour recovery rate.
Is this considered a pretty "measly" rate?

This is Turtle.

Well it seems to be one of the slowest rates that I have seen but there could be
somewhere something slower. The Norm is [ 40 Gal. recovers in 40 minutes. ] [
50 Gal. -- 50 minutes. ] [ 30 Gal. -- 30 minutes. ] .

TURTLE

Glad to see ya' back Turtle
Chuck

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:uuEXd.64058$W16.3567@trndny07...

"blueman" wrote in message
4. Get some type of booster such as an auxilliary tankless heater?
(Is there some type of booster that only comes on when the main
tank is depleted and that would not be too costly to purchase or
install?)

The tanklless setup is a good option. Depending on the use patterns, you may
want to convert the most used bathroom to that style and leave the 50 gallon
tank for the rest. There was a thread here yesterday about that type of
heater and it pointed to a web page for more information.

Why store and heat more water that will sit there all day?

This is Turtle.

http://www.foreverho****er.com/ Name Rinnal tanklessheater.

It is gas and can run 3 showers at one time and all hot water from 90ºF to 140ºF
water temp. 24 hours a day / 7 days a week and never run out. Flow rate will be
a little over 9 gal. per minute which the average shower will take 3 gal. per
minute or less. On average they burn 30% less natural gas than a tank type. The
burner heat rate can be from 15K btu to 200k btu , which also comes in Propane
also , which all is controlled by a digital thermostat that you can set the
water temp. as you like it from 70ºF to 160ºF . Also comes with 10 year
warranty.

Bad part , it will cost you over $1K for heater and materials -- No labor. I
have seen one work and they work fine and all the hot water you want.

TURTLE