What makes 1 type heat pump have a higher seer or eer over another, is it
just compressor manufacturer?

confused Scott

Im geuessing here, but coil size would be the #1 factor ....

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:58:24 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Im geuessing here, but coil size would be the #1 factor ....

Guessing again? Gee, like that's some big freaking suprise out of you.
Bubba

"Scott" wrote in message
...
What makes 1 type heat pump have a higher seer or eer over another, is it
just compressor manufacturer?

confused Scott



This is Turtle.

Scotty , there is 3 measuring scales or yard stick you will use on a heat pump.

SEER , C.O.P. @ 47ºF outdoors , and H.S.P.F. at [ region IV ].

If you live in the very South U.S.A. Look at the SEER real heavy and COP and
HSPF last.

If you live in the Northern states or even in the middle states. Look at the COP
and the HSPF Real hard and the SEER lightly.

Now HVAC companys and people talk in COP and HSFP for comparing Heating Ability
only of heat pump system as to getting the most bang for the buck. If you live
in a cold climate you want the highest COP and HSPF number that you can get and
the normal SEER ratings. If you live in a warm climate like in the southern
states. You want a high SEER and maybe a high COP & HSPF if you can afford it
but not a real need.

Now HVAC companys & People talk in SEER rating for the cooling ability only. If
you live in the South. Get the highest SEER you can get and the COP & HSPF just
normal numbers. If you live in the Northern states Get the Highest COP & HSPF
you can get and then when it comes to SEER just get a 10 or 12 seer maybe but no
big deal about getting a high SEER.

If you really want to talk SEER or COP or HSPF Ratings e-mail me here at this
newsgroup address for it is a good e-mail address.

TURTLE

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:37:46 -0500, geoman wrote:



Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps
money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and
Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it
that
it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his
home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane,
they
lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI
numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to
put
the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are
the
very best.

Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane
and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by
this?

Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units,
American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the
coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller
compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then
they
charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units
for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!

Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a
smaller
compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air
over
the coil.

Rich


This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high
SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier
18 SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and
actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk0md4xjv1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:37:46 -0500, geoman wrote:



Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps
money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and
Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it that
it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his
home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane, they
lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI
numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to put
the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are the
very best.

Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane
and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by
this?

Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units,
American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the
coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller
compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then they
charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units
for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!

Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a smaller
compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air over
the coil.

Rich


This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high
SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier 18
SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and
actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...

This is Turtle.

Your listening to a HVAC service man speaking and see's a lot more that the
average person what goes on in the hvac business and as whole and not just a
customers point of view. All manufactor / brands of hvac equipment lie from time
to time and if you think bad about one you will have to think bad about all of
them. In the HVAC business Manufactor have salemenship first and then
Qualityship last.

Answer to your last question here. The answer is SALEMENSHIP !

TURTLE

On 1/22/2005 6:44 PM US(ET), TURTLE took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk0md4xjv1dc2q@athlon2600...


On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:37:46 -0500, geoman wrote:



Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps
money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and
Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it that
it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his
home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane, they
lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI
numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to put
the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are the
very best.


Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane
and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by
this?



Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units,
American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the
coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller
compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then they
charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units
for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!

Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a smaller
compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air over
the coil.

Rich



This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high
SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier 18
SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and
actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...



This is Turtle.

Your listening to a HVAC service man speaking and see's a lot more that the
average person what goes on in the hvac business and as whole and not just a
customers point of view. All manufactor / brands of hvac equipment lie from time
to time and if you think bad about one you will have to think bad about all of
them. In the HVAC business Manufactor have salemenship first and then
Qualityship last.

Answer to your last question here. The answer is SALEMENSHIP !

TURTLE


My US Navy SHIP was named SALEM.

--
Bill

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk0md4xjv1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:37:46 -0500, geoman wrote:



Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps
money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and
Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it
that
it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his
home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane,
they
lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI
numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to
put
the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are
the
very best.

Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane
and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by
this?

Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units,
American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the
coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller
compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then
they
charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units
for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!

Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a
smaller
compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air
over
the coil.

Rich


This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high
SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier
18 SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and
actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...

To be honest, I can't answer that with 100% certainty, but I do have an
opinion which I can share. Others may have facts, and I'm sure the factory
and reps have their standard sales crap as well.

I have sold American Standard units that were 16 Seer and to be honest, the
only thing I could see on this five ton HP was a coils size that needed a
flat bed truck to deliver, a smaller compressor and the air handler having a
TXV being required. (Of course that's true with all their five ton systems).
The unit has a two speed fan on the condenser and the air handler may be
variable. Besides that I can't say there is anything spectacular that I
haven't seen in 20 years dealing with this brand and Trane. I personally
believe most of it is Marketing and cost of storage and shipping due to
being such large units. Oh, the condenser size costs a little more too, but
not a $1000 more.

Rich

"geoman" wrote in message
...

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk0md4xjv1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:37:46 -0500, geoman wrote:



Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps
money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and
Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it that
it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his
home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane, they
lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI
numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to put
the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are the
very best.

Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane
and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by
this?

Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units,
American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the
coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller
compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then they
charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units
for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!

Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a smaller
compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air over
the coil.

Rich


This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high
SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier 18
SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and
actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...

To be honest, I can't answer that with 100% certainty, but I do have an
opinion which I can share. Others may have facts, and I'm sure the factory and
reps have their standard sales crap as well.

I have sold American Standard units that were 16 Seer and to be honest, the
only thing I could see on this five ton HP was a coils size that needed a flat
bed truck to deliver, a smaller compressor and the air handler having a TXV
being required. (Of course that's true with all their five ton systems). The
unit has a two speed fan on the condenser and the air handler may be variable.
Besides that I can't say there is anything spectacular that I haven't seen in
20 years dealing with this brand and Trane. I personally believe most of it
is Marketing and cost of storage and shipping due to being such large units.
Oh, the condenser size costs a little more too, but not a $1000 more.

Rich

This is Turtle.

Hey Rich let me give you one to laugh about here with a ArcoAire 14 SEER
straight cooling system. Take a Arcoaire 5 ton 14 SEER straight cooling
condenser. Arcoaire does not make a air handler or coil and gas furnace combo
that will let it put out 14 SEER. This was as of 10 months ago but may have
changed something since then but I dought it. The best they can match up with it
is to get a 13.4 SEER but has a sticker on the condenser that states 14 SEER.
The Magic here is what did they use to test this thing with when they run the
Testing program to get a 14 SEER rating with it. Maybe Carrier loaned them a Air
Handler to test with.

Also here is a off the wall one here. Goodman R-22 type has a 14 seer condenser
that with the right combo you can get 15.4 SEER out of it but can't get it out
of a 5 ton but must be 4 tons or less.

I think these manufactor made a joke out of this seer testing system.

TURTLE

This is Turtle.

Hey Rich let me give you one to laugh about here with a ArcoAire 14 SEER
straight cooling system. Take a Arcoaire 5 ton 14 SEER straight cooling
condenser. Arcoaire does not make a air handler or coil and gas furnace
combo that will let it put out 14 SEER. This was as of 10 months ago but
may have changed something since then but I dought it. The best they can
match up with it is to get a 13.4 SEER but has a sticker on the condenser
that states 14 SEER. The Magic here is what did they use to test this
thing with when they run the Testing program to get a 14 SEER rating with
it. Maybe Carrier loaned them a Air Handler to test with.

Also here is a off the wall one here. Goodman R-22 type has a 14 seer
condenser that with the right combo you can get 15.4 SEER out of it but
can't get it out of a 5 ton but must be 4 tons or less.

I think these manufactor made a joke out of this seer testing system.

TURTLE


Snipped

I agree with you Turtle, I look at the ARI ratings and they amaze me at
times. But do you think ARI allowed them to use a different manufactures
unit for the rating? That is hard to believe. ARI lists the units ratings
with the air handlers, what does it say in ARI for that unit your speaking
of? It would be interesting.

In our area SEER means little after 12 since we don't use that much AC like
you do. Heat Pumps being higher in efficiency is more important in this
area.

I would rather put a 10 seer AC unit in with a desuperheater added on in my
home than a 14 seer unit anyday. Heck, I'm about to put a water cooled
condenser on my air conditioner as it is with as much hot water my four
women use in a day time!

Rich

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:23 -0500, geoman wrote:
snipped long message out


Astro, ignore the TempRise for efficiency on your Geothermal unit, it has
nothing to do with it by itself, it is only PART of the equation and
numbers
we use to indicate what a geothermal unit or heat pump is doing. One must
have ARI numbers in order to do these calculations and then do
temperature
checks along with voltage and amperage readings. Heat Pumps and
Geothermals
makes HVAC a real science that can be proved instead of using a wet
finger
in the air test.

Rich,
of course, I agree, delta T is only one number in the equation. The big
concern with my system this winter has been absolute BTU output and the
sustainability of that output.
As for efficiency, I have clamp-metered the compressor amperage and air
handler current a couple times to get an estimate of COP for my unit. I
need to remeasure now that it's been running continuously during the cold
weather, pushing out about 30k BTU. At last measure, the system was
running about 2.8 COP pushing 36k BTU. Nothing to brag about...

My crack about the 5 ton conventional HP is because even in these cold air
temp days, a 5 ton air source HP would be cranking out more BTU's (based
on the published curves) than my less-than-optimal 4-ton geothermal
system. As noted, partly tongue in cheek because the real solution is to
get my installation repaired so that it's pumping from a reasonable ground
temp at which point no air source system should be able to touch it.

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk6ly6w3v1dc2q@athlon2600...

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:23 -0500, geoman wrote:
snipped long message out


Astro, ignore the TempRise for efficiency on your Geothermal unit, it has
nothing to do with it by itself, it is only PART of the equation and
numbers
we use to indicate what a geothermal unit or heat pump is doing. One must
have ARI numbers in order to do these calculations and then do
temperature
checks along with voltage and amperage readings. Heat Pumps and
Geothermals
makes HVAC a real science that can be proved instead of using a wet
finger
in the air test.

Rich,
of course, I agree, delta T is only one number in the equation. The big
concern with my system this winter has been absolute BTU output and the
sustainability of that output.
As for efficiency, I have clamp-metered the compressor amperage and air
handler current a couple times to get an estimate of COP for my unit. I
need to remeasure now that it's been running continuously during the cold
weather, pushing out about 30k BTU. At last measure, the system was
running about 2.8 COP pushing 36k BTU. Nothing to brag about...

My crack about the 5 ton conventional HP is because even in these cold air
temp days, a 5 ton air source HP would be cranking out more BTU's (based
on the published curves) than my less-than-optimal 4-ton geothermal
system. As noted, partly tongue in cheek because the real solution is to
get my installation repaired so that it's pumping from a reasonable ground
temp at which point no air source system should be able to touch it.

I'm curious to which system / brand do you have? What model and what type of
loop?

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:57:46 -0500, geoman wrote:


"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk6ly6w3v1dc2q@athlon2600...

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:23 -0500, geoman wrote:
snipped long message out


Astro, ignore the TempRise for efficiency on your Geothermal unit, it
has
nothing to do with it by itself, it is only PART of the equation and
numbers
we use to indicate what a geothermal unit or heat pump is doing. One
must
have ARI numbers in order to do these calculations and then do
temperature
checks along with voltage and amperage readings. Heat Pumps and
Geothermals
makes HVAC a real science that can be proved instead of using a wet
finger
in the air test.

Rich,
of course, I agree, delta T is only one number in the equation. The big
concern with my system this winter has been absolute BTU output and the
sustainability of that output.
As for efficiency, I have clamp-metered the compressor amperage and air
handler current a couple times to get an estimate of COP for my unit. I
need to remeasure now that it's been running continuously during the
cold
weather, pushing out about 30k BTU. At last measure, the system was
running about 2.8 COP pushing 36k BTU. Nothing to brag about...

My crack about the 5 ton conventional HP is because even in these cold
air
temp days, a 5 ton air source HP would be cranking out more BTU's (based
on the published curves) than my less-than-optimal 4-ton geothermal
system. As noted, partly tongue in cheek because the real solution is to
get my installation repaired so that it's pumping from a reasonable
ground
temp at which point no air source system should be able to touch it.

I'm curious to which system / brand do you have? What model and what
type of
loop?


ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100' vertical
loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest model
using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's the
type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of that.)

I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking at
my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter
measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to put
a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero crossing
phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF for
a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll
compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change much
at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.

Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor and
why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a
clamp-meter, see:

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC.../AC/AC_11.html

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk7oi7npv1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:57:46 -0500, geoman wrote:


"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk6ly6w3v1dc2q@athlon2600...

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:23 -0500, geoman wrote:
snipped long message out


Astro, ignore the TempRise for efficiency on your Geothermal unit, it
has
nothing to do with it by itself, it is only PART of the equation and
numbers
we use to indicate what a geothermal unit or heat pump is doing. One
must
have ARI numbers in order to do these calculations and then do
temperature
checks along with voltage and amperage readings. Heat Pumps and
Geothermals
makes HVAC a real science that can be proved instead of using a wet
finger
in the air test.

Rich,
of course, I agree, delta T is only one number in the equation. The big
concern with my system this winter has been absolute BTU output and the
sustainability of that output.
As for efficiency, I have clamp-metered the compressor amperage and air
handler current a couple times to get an estimate of COP for my unit. I
need to remeasure now that it's been running continuously during the
cold
weather, pushing out about 30k BTU. At last measure, the system was
running about 2.8 COP pushing 36k BTU. Nothing to brag about...

My crack about the 5 ton conventional HP is because even in these cold
air
temp days, a 5 ton air source HP would be cranking out more BTU's (based
on the published curves) than my less-than-optimal 4-ton geothermal
system. As noted, partly tongue in cheek because the real solution is to
get my installation repaired so that it's pumping from a reasonable
ground
temp at which point no air source system should be able to touch it.

I'm curious to which system / brand do you have? What model and what
type of
loop?


ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100' vertical
loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest model
using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's the
type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of
that.)

I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking at
my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter
measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to put
a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero crossing
phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF for
a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll
compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change much
at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.

Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor and
why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a
clamp-meter, see:

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC.../AC/AC_11.html


Ah, the gentlemen from the engineering newsgroup where Abby Normal is
helping you ..... I thought I recognized the style of writting.

I never heard of ECR tech, there is another brand but I can't recall what it
is that is DX as well. Does ECR make their own air handlers or do they just
make the remote system that attaches to anothers air handler system such as
yours?

Rich

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:02:32 -0500, geoman wrote:

snipped
ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100' vertical
loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest model
using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's the
type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of
that.)

I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking
at
my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter
measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to
put
a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero crossing
phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF
for
a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll
compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change much
at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.

Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor
and
why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a
clamp-meter, see:

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC.../AC/AC_11.html


Ah, the gentlemen from the engineering newsgroup where Abby Normal is
helping you ..... I thought I recognized the style of writting.

I never heard of ECR tech, there is another brand but I can't recall
what it
is that is DX as well. Does ECR make their own air handlers or do they
just
make the remote system that attaches to anothers air handler system such
as
yours?

Rich



you got it, that's me.

BTW - I made new measurements today, system is reading 13 amps for the
heat pump and 2 amps for the air handler, measured with an RMS reading,
dual slope integrating clamp meter. 243 Volts. BTUs after a long run is
down to 28500. COP still measure out about 2.8 not including the air
handler consumption. System COP then measures 2.4. I think these are
pretty good, though I still haven't quantified the PF.

ECR has some air handlers that they sell, I think, but their installer
prefers the Trane VS unit.

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk8ndzd2v1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:02:32 -0500, geoman wrote:

snipped
ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100' vertical
loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest model
using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's the
type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of
that.)

I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking
at
my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter
measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to
put
a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero crossing
phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF
for
a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll
compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change much
at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.

Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor
and
why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a
clamp-meter, see:

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC.../AC/AC_11.html


Ah, the gentlemen from the engineering newsgroup where Abby Normal is
helping you ..... I thought I recognized the style of writting.

I never heard of ECR tech, there is another brand but I can't recall
what it
is that is DX as well. Does ECR make their own air handlers or do they
just
make the remote system that attaches to anothers air handler system such
as
yours?

Rich



you got it, that's me.

BTW - I made new measurements today, system is reading 13 amps for the
heat pump and 2 amps for the air handler, measured with an RMS reading,
dual slope integrating clamp meter. 243 Volts. BTUs after a long run is
down to 28500. COP still measure out about 2.8 not including the air
handler consumption. System COP then measures 2.4. I think these are
pretty good, though I still haven't quantified the PF.

ECR has some air handlers that they sell, I think, but their installer
prefers the Trane VS unit.

Ive checked out the pictures of installations for this brand of DX system,
http://ecrtech.com/content/interior...._install. htm
I must say that I was shocked to see them soft soldering the loops together
to the main suction line outside in the ground area. Also, all those
refrigerant lines laying in a mess while waiting to be installed is a big
concern to me. How do they keep them from kinking? The company offers
nothing on BTU specifications at all, no charts or anything technical, just
sales information.One interesting statement is " The EarthLinked® product
line has the highest average COP and EER efficiency rating of any system
tested by ARI, and is an EnergyStar® Partner.". Once again, it all depends
upon the installer.

Without any ARI info I can't see what is going on with this. I still don't
know what size unit you have, I'm assuming a 3 ton.

Rich.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:48:02 -0500, geoman wrote:


"Astro" wrote in message
newspsk8ndzd2v1dc2q@athlon2600...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:02:32 -0500, geoman wrote:

snipped
ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100'
vertical
loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest
model
using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's
the
type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of
that.)

I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking
at
my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter
measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to
put
a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero
crossing
phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF
for
a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll
compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change
much
at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.

Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor
and
why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a
clamp-meter, see:

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC.../AC/AC_11.html


Ah, the gentlemen from the engineering newsgroup where Abby Normal is
helping you ..... I thought I recognized the style of writting.

I never heard of ECR tech, there is another brand but I can't recall
what it
is that is DX as well. Does ECR make their own air handlers or do they
just
make the remote system that attaches to anothers air handler system
such
as
yours?

Rich



you got it, that's me.

BTW - I made new measurements today, system is reading 13 amps for the
heat pump and 2 amps for the air handler, measured with an RMS reading,
dual slope integrating clamp meter. 243 Volts. BTUs after a long run is
down to 28500. COP still measure out about 2.8 not including the air
handler consumption. System COP then measures 2.4. I think these are
pretty good, though I still haven't quantified the PF.

ECR has some air handlers that they sell, I think, but their installer
prefers the Trane VS unit.

Ive checked out the pictures of installations for this brand of DX
system,
http://ecrtech.com/content/interior...._install. htm
I must say that I was shocked to see them soft soldering the loops
together
to the main suction line outside in the ground area. Also, all those
refrigerant lines laying in a mess while waiting to be installed is a big
concern to me. How do they keep them from kinking? The company offers
nothing on BTU specifications at all, no charts or anything technical,
just
sales information.One interesting statement is " The EarthLinked® product
line has the highest average COP and EER efficiency rating of any system
tested by ARI, and is an EnergyStar® Partner.". Once again, it all
depends
upon the installer.

Without any ARI info I can't see what is going on with this. I still
don't
know what size unit you have, I'm assuming a 3 ton.

Rich.



It's called a "4-ton" system, their -048 model. They do have a spec sheet
that they emailed me that said their 4-ton system is rated 46100 BTU. But
it doesn't give any more information than that. Of course, they don't give
what the design temperature is or any detailed technical information. As
you noted, they don't provide tech info anywhere, which bothers me. I
should have known better but the installer I went with was "one of their
best" according to ECR, so I trusted them. Heck, I was happy that the
manufacturer would actually talk to me.

On the plus side, the guys who did the install were careful about handling
the lines. The lines come prefab from the factory in a roll. They unroll
them straight on the ground just before install into borehole.

Funny you should mention soldering the lines. I was around when they were
installing them and asked them about this. They said that they braze all
the lines because that gives a better mechanical connection that is less
prone to damage with vibration etc.. Sounded good to me.

The ARI charts do list ECR as an officially qualified manufacturer and
support their claim to being the most efficient system. Rated COP of
something like 4.6 at ARI testing conditions.

Based on the numbers I'm getting and have measured, the system appears to
be working as one would predict given the very low ground temperature. If
I'm understanding the theory correctly, the system should follow the same
curves as a normal heat pump, using the same compressor at a given air
temperature, although the exact efficiency will depend on a variety of
factors.

For example, looking at Carrier's conventional heat pump, the "low
temperature" (17F) rating of their 4-ton unit runs around 31000BTU
(depending on indoor unit) with a COP from 2.3-2.6 (Taken from their 38BY
heat pump manual).

I'm not saying that this is 100% accurate for my situation, but the
ballpark figures support the data pretty well given the rough
measurements. Ultimately, you put a heat pump loops in ground that's well
below freezing and you'll get very little heat out, and what you do get
out won't be very efficient.