My son is fixing up his basement. He is not covering the cement walls.
There are no wall outlets. I plan on helping him put some service
into the room. We will tap into a line that powers an overhead light.
From there, the plan is to run wire down a wall then across the wall
with five or six outlets then to a wall switch to power a light as you
come into the room.
Anyone have some ideas on making this look decent against the concrete?
We plan on using some type of conduit. I've seen a type of conduit
that is flat with outlets that can be placed anywhere along the length.
All ideas are welcome.

You can use Wiremold #500 or #700 raceway for power. They sell it at Home
Depot, but your local electrical supply house probably has a better
selection of accessories and better prices. Ask to look at a Wiremold
catalog.

You might want to consider running a separate line for this instead of
tapping off of an existing circuit. Five or six outlets plus lights may
overload an existing circuit.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv


wrote in message
oups.com...
My son is fixing up his basement. He is not covering the cement walls.
There are no wall outlets. I plan on helping him put some service
into the room. We will tap into a line that powers an overhead light.
From there, the plan is to run wire down a wall then across the wall
with five or six outlets then to a wall switch to power a light as you
come into the room.
Anyone have some ideas on making this look decent against the concrete?
We plan on using some type of conduit. I've seen a type of conduit
that is flat with outlets that can be placed anywhere along the length.
All ideas are welcome.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:17:05 -0500, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

You can use Wiremold #500 or #700 raceway for power. They sell it at Home
Depot, but your local electrical supply house probably has a better
selection of accessories and better prices. Ask to look at a Wiremold
catalog.

You might want to consider running a separate line for this instead of
tapping off of an existing circuit. Five or six outlets plus lights may
overload an existing circuit.

Depending on what is plugged in your are right.

Also, do you want to plug in something and trip the breaker, to also
have your lights go out? Yikes.




John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv


wrote in message
roups.com...
My son is fixing up his basement. He is not covering the cement walls.
There are no wall outlets. I plan on helping him put some service
into the room. We will tap into a line that powers an overhead light.
From there, the plan is to run wire down a wall then across the wall
with five or six outlets then to a wall switch to power a light as you
come into the room.
Anyone have some ideas on making this look decent against the concrete?
We plan on using some type of conduit. I've seen a type of conduit
that is flat with outlets that can be placed anywhere along the length.
All ideas are welcome.


later,

tom @ www.URLBee.com

I should have mentioned that running from an existing line was our last
option. Just being in the planning stages and 80 miles away, I'm not
aware if there are any empty spaces in his breaker box. I was lucky
when I wired my basement years ago in that I had empty spaces.
I assume that 14 gauge wire is sufficient with 15 Amp protection in
fact, I recall that it is required. Also, if the first outlet is
GFIC, will that protect the other outlets downstream from it?

"rile" wrote in message
oups.com...
I should have mentioned that running from an existing line was our last
option. Just being in the planning stages and 80 miles away, I'm not
aware if there are any empty spaces in his breaker box. I was lucky
when I wired my basement years ago in that I had empty spaces.
I assume that 14 gauge wire is sufficient with 15 Amp protection in
fact, I recall that it is required. Also, if the first outlet is
GFIC, will that protect the other outlets downstream from it?


This is Turtle.

Full boxes are not a problem now a days with the piggy Back breakers and can run
two circuits off one slot now a days.

TURTLE

This is Turtle.

Full boxes are not a problem now a days with the piggy Back breakers
and can run
two circuits off one slot now a days.

TURTLE

Good thinking. I've got a few in my present breaker box and hadn't
thought of it. Now, back to my OP.......I need advise on what to do
about a conduit......metal or PVC? Also, what would be a good way to
connect it to the concrete block wall?

"rile" wrote in message
ups.com...

This is Turtle.

Full boxes are not a problem now a days with the piggy Back breakers
and can run
two circuits off one slot now a days.

TURTLE

Good thinking. I've got a few in my present breaker box and hadn't
thought of it. Now, back to my OP.......I need advise on what to do
about a conduit......metal or PVC? Also, what would be a good way to
connect it to the concrete block wall?


This is Turtle.

Concrete wall ankers for conduit. They sellthe screw, ankors, and clips to hold
the conduit all where they sell the wire and conduit fittinmgs.

TURTLE

Just use EMT and paint it the same color as the walls.

You will need a hammer drill and masonry bits to install the concrete
anchors.

Don't put lighting and receptacles on the same circuit.

Preforably put in a 20A circuit for the receptacles.

Yes, you can use a single GFCI at the beginning to give GFCI protection
for the number of receptacles that you will be adding. Put the GFCI in
a double wide box (box normally used for 2 regular sized receptacles)
and deep too. GFCI receptacles are too big for me to want to put them
in most places!

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:26:26 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:


"rile" wrote in message
roups.com...
I should have mentioned that running from an existing line was our last
option. Just being in the planning stages and 80 miles away, I'm not
aware if there are any empty spaces in his breaker box. I was lucky
when I wired my basement years ago in that I had empty spaces.
I assume that 14 gauge wire is sufficient with 15 Amp protection in
fact, I recall that it is required. Also, if the first outlet is
GFIC, will that protect the other outlets downstream from it?


This is Turtle.

Full boxes are not a problem now a days with the piggy Back breakers and can run
two circuits off one slot now a days.

except in cases of panels that are no longer being made which is a
problem I have encountered. Rather than replace the whole thing, I
will be installing a sub-panel.

TURTLE wrote:
"rile" wrote in message
oups.com...

I should have mentioned that running from an existing line was our last
option. Just being in the planning stages and 80 miles away, I'm not
aware if there are any empty spaces in his breaker box. I was lucky
when I wired my basement years ago in that I had empty spaces.
I assume that 14 gauge wire is sufficient with 15 Amp protection in
fact, I recall that it is required. Also, if the first outlet is
GFIC, will that protect the other outlets downstream from it?



This is Turtle.

Full boxes are not a problem now a days with the piggy Back breakers and can run
two circuits off one slot now a days.

TURTLE

Turtle
Unless the panel is designed for tandem breakers installing them
violates the listing of the panel which violates the US National
Electric Code. If that violation were to cause a fire the insurance
carrier could walk away from the loss and decline to pay it. Breakers
marked for replacement use only are recognized or listed for use in
panels that were designed for tandem breakers but were manufactured
before the requirement for circuit limiting (CTL) assemblies was
adopted. CTL assemblies will only accept the number of tandem or half
width breakers for which they were designed. Pre CTL assemblies rely on
the installer to obey the requirement of NFPA 70, section 110.3
Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment which
reads in part B "B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included
in the listing or labeling." That includes the list of breakers that
are include on the interior labeling. Just because a non CTL breaker
will physically fit in the panel does not make it OK to use in that panel.
--
Tom H

HorneTD wrote:

Turtle
Unless the panel is designed for tandem breakers installing them
violates the listing of the panel which violates the US National
Electric Code. If that violation were to cause a fire the insurance
carrier could walk away from the loss and decline to pay it.
Breakers
marked for replacement use only are recognized or listed for use in
panels that were designed for tandem breakers but were manufactured
before the requirement for circuit limiting (CTL) assemblies was
adopted. CTL assemblies will only accept the number of tandem or
half
width breakers for which they were designed. Pre CTL assemblies rely
on
the installer to obey the requirement of NFPA 70, section 110.3
Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment which

reads in part B "B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment

shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included
in the listing or labeling." That includes the list of breakers that

are include on the interior labeling. Just because a non CTL breaker

will physically fit in the panel does not make it OK to use in that
panel.
--
Tom H

OK......well and good for someone knowing the code and all. But, in
regular do-it-yourself language....how can I tell if a breaker box is
OK with a tandem breaker?

OK......well and good for someone knowing the code and all. But, in
regular do-it-yourself language....how can I tell if a breaker box is
OK with a tandem breaker?

If that breakers model/part number is not listed on the label in the
panel cabinet and that panel's model/part number is not listed on a list
that is packed with the breaker then you cannot use that breaker in that
panel.
--
Tom H

The Breaker container has no mention of any panel. I can't see where the panel mentions any breaker type either. They are both QO (SquareD), and the type of clips that holds it in and makes electrical contact are the same. I'm just wondering why there is a problem. It's hard to find breakers for my panel, most I've seen have this hook looking type of clip

The only thing I can think of, is that 40 versus 20 amps could effectively be pulled though the breakers incoming hot rail connection point, that's it. And since the rail clips for both single and tandem breakers are exactly the same width, one can only conclude that a panel made for tandem breakers must have a rail that's more conductive. That's the only reasoning I can see. Is it supposed to start a fire as it sparks from 40 amps running across the connection? I just don't get it!

Is there an engineer handy?

Obviously I don't want to start a fire. The only other solution I have is to have a new service put in, which is beyond my abilities, not to mention the steep price tag.

Is it actually safer to have the single 20 amp breaker trip periodically? The wiring dates back to 1957 (not the Panel I believe, It would have fuses right) so the circuit covers several rooms, which draws more current than the 20 amp breakers limit? I figure it's better to add a 20 amp tandem and run wire for the second side, than to increase the breaker to 30 amps because the existing wire gage might not be able to handle 30 amps.

My plan is to increase the service rating (the MAIN breaker is 100 amps at this point) and rewire the entire house eventually.

So what's my course of action in the interim?

The panel manufacturers have the responsibility to mechanically limit the
number of breakers in their panels, whether it be full sized, half sized or
a combination of both. If you've reached the max positions in the panel, you
can add a small sub panel until you do your service increase



"JBC" wrote in message
...

HorneTD Wrote:
OK......well and good for someone knowing the code and all. But, in-
regular do-it-yourself language....how can I tell if a breaker box is
OK with a tandem breaker?-

If that breakers model/part number is not listed on the label in the
panel cabinet and that panel's model/part number is not listed on a
list
that is packed with the breaker then you cannot use that breaker in
that
panel.
--
Tom H

The Breaker container has no mention of any panel. I can't see where
the panel mentions any breaker type either. They are both QO
(SquareD), and the type of clips that holds it in and makes electrical
contact are the same. I'm just wondering why there is a problem. It's
hard to find breakers for my panel, most I've seen have this hook
looking type of clip

The only thing I can think of, is that 40 versus 20 amps could
effectively be pulled though the breakers incoming hot rail connection
point, that's it. And since the rail clips for both single and tandem
breakers are exactly the same width, one can only conclude that a panel
made for tandem breakers must have a rail that's more conductive.
That's the only reasoning I can see. Is it supposed to start a fire as
it sparks from 40 amps running across the connection? I just don't get
it!

Is there an engineer handy?

Obviously I don't want to start a fire. The only other solution I have
is to have a new service put in, which is beyond my abilities, not to
mention the steep price tag.

Is it actually safer to have the single 20 amp breaker trip
periodically? The wiring dates back to 1957 (not the Panel I believe,
It would have fuses right) so the circuit covers several rooms, which
draws more current than the 20 amp breakers limit? I figure it's
better to add a 20 amp tandem and run wire for the second side, than to
increase the breaker to 30 amps because the existing wire gage might not
be able to handle 30 amps.

My plan is to increase the service rating (the MAIN breaker is 100 amps
at this point) and rewire the entire house eventually.

So what's my course of action in the interim?


--
JBC

JBC wrote:
HorneTD Wrote:

OK......well and good for someone knowing the code and all. But, in-
regular do-it-yourself language....how can I tell if a breaker box is
OK with a tandem breaker?-

If that breakers model/part number is not listed on the label in the
panel cabinet and that panel's model/part number is not listed on a
list
that is packed with the breaker then you cannot use that breaker in
that
panel.
--
Tom H


The Breaker container has no mention of any panel. I can't see where
the panel mentions any breaker type either. They are both QO
(SquareD), and the type of clips that holds it in and makes electrical
contact are the same. I'm just wondering why there is a problem. It's
hard to find breakers for my panel, most I've seen have this hook
looking type of clip

The only thing I can think of, is that 40 versus 20 amps could
effectively be pulled though the breakers incoming hot rail connection
point, that's it. And since the rail clips for both single and tandem
breakers are exactly the same width, one can only conclude that a panel
made for tandem breakers must have a rail that's more conductive.
That's the only reasoning I can see. Is it supposed to start a fire as
it sparks from 40 amps running across the connection? I just don't get
it!

Is there an engineer handy?

Obviously I don't want to start a fire. The only other solution I have
is to have a new service put in, which is beyond my abilities, not to
mention the steep price tag.

Is it actually safer to have the single 20 amp breaker trip
periodically? The wiring dates back to 1957 (not the Panel I believe,
It would have fuses right) so the circuit covers several rooms, which
draws more current than the 20 amp breakers limit? I figure it's
better to add a 20 amp tandem and run wire for the second side, than to
increase the breaker to 30 amps because the existing wire gage might not
be able to handle 30 amps.

My plan is to increase the service rating (the MAIN breaker is 100 amps
at this point) and rewire the entire house eventually.

So what's my course of action in the interim?



(I seem to be missing the start of this thread in case this post isn't
entirely appropriate.)

UL, as I understand it, in their standard for panels limits the number
of 'poles' that can be installed in a panel. (a 220V breaker is 2 poles,
a 12V breaker is 1 pole, a 120V tandem breaker is 2 poles.) The maximum
number of poles in a 100A 120/240V panel is 20. (In a 200A panel 40.) If
a panel has positions for 16 full sized poles it could have 4 more poles
and stay under the 20 limit. These can be installed as 4 120V tandem
breakers. To prevent more than 4 tandem breakers from being installed, a
tandem breaker has a hook to install it on the panel rail instead of the
normal SquareD U shaped clips. Only 4 positions on the rail can have a
slot to accept the hook. These breakers are called class CTL (circuit
limiting). (A 100A panel may be designed so fewer than 20 total poles
can be installed.) Previous to the class CTL panels tandem breakers had
the normal U shaped clip and could be installed in any position (or all
the positions). Last I heard these non-CTL breakers were still
available. As indicated in the quoted post, a panel on its label should
have a list of breakers that can be installed in that panel. A class CTL
panel will not have non-CTL breakers on the list and it is a code
violation to install a breaker that is not on the list.

While I can understand how a panel can wind up with breakers for more
load than the panel can handle, I don't see what the difference in
installing a breaker for a subpanel and adding the subpanel breakers in
the main panel (asuming available neutral positons and adequate side
gutter space). I suppose it is a question of enforcing a reasonable limit.

I assume someone said going to a 30A breaker is not safe.

bud--