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Old July 17th 19, 10:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first.

o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase)
o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?)
o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid
o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay
o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip

That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit
breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet.

Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg

1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled:
"Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A"
"This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y
#75595 - #79844 - #83494"
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg

2. The plastic relay is labeled
o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC,
o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC
o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC
o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC
o 10 AMP 28 VCD
o 8600, 20552-81, 9346
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5.
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

4. The junction strip is labeled
o Utility 1
o Utility 2
o Load 1
o Load 2
o blank
o 23
o 194
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch?
https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg

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Old July 17th 19, 11:23 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first.

o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase)
o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?)
o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid
o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay
o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip

That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit
breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet.

Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg

1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled:
"Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A"
"This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y
#75595 - #79844 - #83494"
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg

2. The plastic relay is labeled
o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC,
o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC
o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC
o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC
o 10 AMP 28 VCD
o 8600, 20552-81, 9346
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5.
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

4. The junction strip is labeled
o Utility 1
o Utility 2
o Load 1
o Load 2
o blank
o 23
o 194
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch?
https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg


What do your panels look like,. It looks like you are transferring 2
"emergency power" panels being fed.
What is it doing wrong?
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Old July 17th 19, 11:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup
http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.

Why two transfer switches?

Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make
one.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Old July 18th 19, 01:36 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup
http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.

Why two transfer switches?

Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make
one.


I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but
nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency
panels.
The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch.

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Old July 18th 19, 01:53 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:36:50 -0400, wrote:

I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but
nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency
panels.
The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch.


Thanks for offering suggestions and asking questions.

I didn't wire it, but I'm pretty sure this is standard stuff.

It's just typical stuff I don't know - but I'm sure it's to typical code,
which means everyone wires them similarly I would think since there's no
rocket science going on.

I "think" the reason for the two panels is that each panel supplies half
the house, which seems to be how it works when I pull the Buss fuses.

But that's exactly why I asked if anyone knew how the TYPICAL setup works,
since this has to be as typical as typical gets for such things, given it
has to be to code which means everyone does it similarly.

Back to your question, I don't know what an "emergency panel" is, as
there's nothing "emergency" about this. PG&E power goes out once a month
out here, for about a day on average, for about 10 to 12 times a year,
where this setup isn't flipping those two fist-sized solenoids
automatically.

I can manually flip them, and the setup works - but not automatically - but
I'm NOT asking about that - as the problem will literally scream out where
it is if I only knew how these things are typically wired.

Googling for what you mean by 'emergency panel", it "seems" that what you
mean by "emergency panel" is the same as what I mean by "transfer switch",
where I get the name of "transfer switch" right off the boxes themselves.

In short, I "think" this is set up as typical as typical can be, which
means anyone who knows how these things are set up would be able to explain
it, where I get Jeff's point that I can follow the wires, but that still
doesn't tell me WHAT each thing does - just where the wires go (and there
are a zillion of them).

I "think" the two panels are for two sides of the house, where I "assume"
one panel has one hot and one neutral, while the other panel, I assume, has
another hot and another neutral.

Otherwise, why would the two panels be so exactly symmetric?


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Old July 18th 19, 02:00 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:36:50 -0400, wrote:

I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but
nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency
panels.
The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch.


Thanks for offering suggestions and asking questions.

I didn't wire it, but I'm pretty sure this is standard stuff.

It's just typical stuff I don't know - but I'm sure it's to typical code,
which means everyone wires them similarly I would think since there's no
rocket science going on.

I "think" the reason for the two panels is that each panel supplies half
the house, which seems to be how it works when I pull the Buss fuses.

But that's exactly why I asked if anyone knew how the TYPICAL setup works,
since this has to be as typical as typical gets for such things, given it
has to be to code which means everyone does it similarly.

Back to your question, I don't know what an "emergency panel" is, as
there's nothing "emergency" about this. PG&E power goes out once a month
out here, for about a day on average, for about 10 to 12 times a year,
where this setup isn't flipping those two fist-sized solenoids
automatically.

I can manually flip them, and the setup works - but not automatically - but
I'm NOT asking about that - as the problem will literally scream out where
it is if I only knew how these things are typically wired.

Googling for what you mean by 'emergency panel", it "seems" that what you
mean by "emergency panel" is the same as what I mean by "transfer switch",
where I get the name of "transfer switch" right off the boxes themselves.

In short, I "think" this is set up as typical as typical can be, which
means anyone who knows how these things are set up would be able to explain
it, where I get Jeff's point that I can follow the wires, but that still
doesn't tell me WHAT each thing does - just where the wires go (and there
are a zillion of them).

I "think" the two panels are for two sides of the house, where I "assume"
one panel has one hot and one neutral, while the other panel, I assume, has
another hot and another neutral.

Otherwise, why would the two panels be so exactly symmetric?



This is one panel with an emergency panel
If you have 2 panels, that explains it. There do seem to be parallel
PoCo conductors feeding both switches. The small wires coming up to
the one on the left is the generator. If you carefully wiggle each big
wire going through the big nipple to identify them on each end you can
prove all of that.

https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-...iring-diagram/
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Old July 18th 19, 02:56 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

How about a real Gernerac model number?


Thanks for the additional questions as this pretty much has to be typical
stuff - but I just have no experience with debugging transfer switches.

This is the model number of the generator, if that's what you're asking
https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg

That Generac Generator is pretty typical stuff out here, if a bit puny,
which is a Generac model 09067-9 8KW (67Amps) propane generator.

Maybe the model number on this placard is ONLY for the solenoids?
https://i.postimg.cc/MKnVYxgH/transfer13.jpg

The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.


This, for example, is the placard on the side of the panel inside:
https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg

And this sticker is also on the inside of the panel:
https://i.postimg.cc/cLMqkqny/transfer10.jpg

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup


Now that's interesting! (I can call 888-922-8482 tomorrow.)
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup

The link shows that there "should" be a transfer switch serial number!
http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c
But I don't see any number that would be a serial number yet.

However while looking I found covers which have slightly different cards:
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.


I agree. But first I have to figure out what they are.

Why two transfer switches?

I don't know. It's got to be standard stuff. Everything has to be to code.

I suspect each box controls one hot wire, as when I pulled the Buss fuses,
one side of the house turned off when the generator was running with no
power coming in from PG&E.

Both boxes seem almost perfect symmetric, so I think it's just one hot for
each box. But that's why I asked about a typical setup, as this must be to
code.

Got a schematic of how you wired it?

It came with the house, and it's to code since the house has all the
permits filled, and it used to work but then stopped working about a year
or two ago.

What happens is that the power goes out, and then the generator turns on,
but the two fist-sized solenoids don't trigger. I can trigger them manually
by putting this handle which is screwed to the box into the big solenoid.
https://i.postimg.cc/7PNgnwJV/transfer15.jpg

Moving that lever down in each solenoid turns the transfer switch on.
https://i.postimg.cc/nh3RRqs3/transfer14.jpg
But that's supposed to happen automatically when the power goes out
and the generator turns on.

If not, trace the wires and make one.


While I was looking for the serial number, I found the closest thing to a
schematic, which is this placard on the inside of the cover (which has been
off for a long time since the transfer switch no longer turns on
automatically when the power goes out.

*AUTOMATIC TRANSFER SWITCH FOR USE ON STANDBY SYSTEMS*
Suitable for control of motors, electrical discharge lamps, tungsten
filament lamps, and electric heating equipment where the sum of the motor
full-load ampere ratings and the ampere ratings of other loads do not
exceed the ampere rating of the switch and the tungsten load does not
exceed 30 percent of the switch rating.

*AUTOMATIC SEQUENCE*
*UTILITY FAIL* - Utility voltage sensor senses when utility voltage level
is below 60% of nominal. Engine start sequence is initiated after a
6-second time delay.

*ENGINE WARMUP* - Time delay to allow for engine warmup before transfer.
Fixed at 15 seconds.

*STANDBY VOLTAGE* - Standby output voltage must be above 50% of nominal
voltage before tansfer is allowed.

*TRANSFER* - Switch transfers load from utility to standby supply; occurs
after standby voltage is above set levels.

*UTILITY PICKUP* - Utility voltage sensor. Voltage pickup level is 80% of
nominal voltage.

*RETRANSFTER* - Time delay after utility voltage supply is above pickup
level before load is transferred from standby to utility. Fixed at 6
seconds.

*ENGINE COOLDOWN* - Time delay for engine no-load cooldown. Fixed at 1
minute.

System will operate automatically every seven days from the time of initial
setting to ensure proper operation. Consult Owner's Manual for further
explanation of Transfer System operating and features.
Systems shall be tested periodically on a schedule acceptable to the
authority having jurisdiction, to assure maintenance in proper operating
condition.
Enclosure is type 1, suitable for indoor installation.
When protected with 200 ampere maximum (110a rated device) or 400 ampere
maximum (200a rated device), Class J, T fuses, this switch is suitable for
use on a circuit capable of delivering not more than 200,000 RMS
symmetrical amperes, 250 volts maximum.

When used with 200 ampere maximum circuit breaker 100 ampere device; 400
ampere maximum curcuit [sic] breaker 200 ampere device; (type G.E. TJK or
Westinghouse HLC) this switch is suitable for use on a curcuit [sic]
capable of delivering not more than 10,000 RMS symmetrical amperes, 250
volts maximum.

Connect utility, standby generator supply and customer load as shown.
*Transfer Switch:*
N1 N2 N3 === Utility Supply
T1 T2 T3 === Customer Load
E1 E2 E3 === Standby Supply

Terminal connectors tightening torque is 50 in-pounds (100a rated device)
or 250 in-pounds (200a rated device). Control wiring terminal connectors
tightening torque is 11 inch-pounds. 79959 D
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg
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Old July 18th 19, 02:59 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


Don't know why I'm getting involved here - but what you have is
basically 2 SPDT contactors - on in each box, that switch the incoming
feed to the main panel between the line and the generator. There are
two becuase you need one for each side of the line - L1 and L2

Each contactor has 2 coils. When coil 1 is energized the contactor
goesd toi position 1 - when coil 2 is energized it switches to
position 2.

It is (likely) controlled by generator control box via the "plastic
relay" which when not energized powers the contactor to the "line"
position and when energized to the "generator" position.

It is EXTREMELY unlikey for both relays , both contactors, or both of
any of the fuses in the switch assemblies to have failked so I would
likely start at the genset, You COULD confirm the functionality of
both relays and check all the fuses first if you want, but I expect
that will be wasted effort.

What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Very high faikure
rate. Start the generator and check voltage output. Likely ZERO -
which means it will never transfer. Genset may need to be "flashed" if
it has not been used for years. No guarantee it is salvageable but
worth a try. Something you should LIKELY get a generator tech to look
at.


See
https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...t_man_2013.pdf

Also see
www.comdac.com/literature/generac/0d4001reva.pdf





Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first.

o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase)
o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?)
o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid
o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay
o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip

That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit
breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet.

Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg

1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled:
"Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A"
"This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y
#75595 - #79844 - #83494"
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg

2. The plastic relay is labeled
o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC,
o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC
o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC
o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC
o 10 AMP 28 VCD
o 8600, 20552-81, 9346
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5.
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

4. The junction strip is labeled
o Utility 1
o Utility 2
o Load 1
o Load 2
o blank
o 23
o 194
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch?
https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg

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Old July 18th 19, 03:07 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:00:13 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:36:50 -0400,
wrote:

I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but
nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency
panels.
The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch.


Thanks for offering suggestions and asking questions.

I didn't wire it, but I'm pretty sure this is standard stuff.

It's just typical stuff I don't know - but I'm sure it's to typical code,
which means everyone wires them similarly I would think since there's no
rocket science going on.

I "think" the reason for the two panels is that each panel supplies half
the house, which seems to be how it works when I pull the Buss fuses.

But that's exactly why I asked if anyone knew how the TYPICAL setup works,
since this has to be as typical as typical gets for such things, given it
has to be to code which means everyone does it similarly.

Back to your question, I don't know what an "emergency panel" is, as
there's nothing "emergency" about this. PG&E power goes out once a month
out here, for about a day on average, for about 10 to 12 times a year,
where this setup isn't flipping those two fist-sized solenoids
automatically.

I can manually flip them, and the setup works - but not automatically - but
I'm NOT asking about that - as the problem will literally scream out where
it is if I only knew how these things are typically wired.

Googling for what you mean by 'emergency panel", it "seems" that what you
mean by "emergency panel" is the same as what I mean by "transfer switch",
where I get the name of "transfer switch" right off the boxes themselves.

In short, I "think" this is set up as typical as typical can be, which
means anyone who knows how these things are set up would be able to explain
it, where I get Jeff's point that I can follow the wires, but that still
doesn't tell me WHAT each thing does - just where the wires go (and there
are a zillion of them).

I "think" the two panels are for two sides of the house, where I "assume"
one panel has one hot and one neutral, while the other panel, I assume, has
another hot and another neutral.

Otherwise, why would the two panels be so exactly symmetric?



This is one panel with an emergency panel
If you have 2 panels, that explains it. There do seem to be parallel
PoCo conductors feeding both switches. The small wires coming up to
the one on the left is the generator. If you carefully wiggle each big
wire going through the big nipple to identify them on each end you can
prove all of that.

https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-...iring-diagram/

What size panel do you have? Perhaps 2 100 amp switches in parallel
for a larger panel??? Kinda mickey mouse - but possible?????
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Old July 18th 19, 03:19 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 134
Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:00:13 -0400, wrote:

This is one panel with an emergency panel
If you have 2 panels, that explains it. There do seem to be parallel
PoCo conductors feeding both switches. The small wires coming up to
the one on the left is the generator. If you carefully wiggle each big
wire going through the big nipple to identify them on each end you can
prove all of that.

https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-...iring-diagram/

Thanks for that document:
https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-amp-transfer-switch-wiring-diagram/

I just found this also, but it's the wrong model number:
https://soa.generac.com/manuals/6349405/0L0176
o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722
o Model Numbers RTSI100M3, RTSI200M3, RTSN100R3, RTSN200R3, RTSN400R3

Same with this one, which seems to be the wrong model number:
http://soa.generac.com/manuals/3003429614/0L1517
o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722
o Model Numbers RTSW100G3, RTSW100J3, RTSW100K3, RTSW200G3, RTSW200J3,
RTSW200K3

Unfortunately, I can't find a model number for the General Transfer Switch
yet, but only model numbers for the big double-fisted solenoids.

I will call Generac tomorrow though.


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