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#1
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first. o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase) o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?) o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet. Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg 1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled: "Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A" "This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y #75595 - #79844 - #83494" https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg 2. The plastic relay is labeled o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC, o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC o 10 AMP 28 VCD o 8600, 20552-81, 9346 https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg 3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg 4. The junction strip is labeled o Utility 1 o Utility 2 o Load 1 o Load 2 o blank o 23 o 194 https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch? https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg |
#2
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first. o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase) o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?) o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet. Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg 1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled: "Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A" "This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y #75595 - #79844 - #83494" https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg 2. The plastic relay is labeled o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC, o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC o 10 AMP 28 VCD o 8600, 20552-81, 9346 https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg 3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg 4. The junction strip is labeled o Utility 1 o Utility 2 o Load 1 o Load 2 o blank o 23 o 194 https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch? https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg What do your panels look like,. It looks like you are transferring 2 "emergency power" panels being fed. What is it doing wrong? |
#3
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model. I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial number? http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires, terminals, fuses, etc. Why two transfer switches? Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make one. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#4
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model. I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial number? http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires, terminals, fuses, etc. Why two transfer switches? Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make one. I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency panels. The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch. |
#5
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
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#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
How about a real Gernerac model number? Thanks for the additional questions as this pretty much has to be typical stuff - but I just have no experience with debugging transfer switches. This is the model number of the generator, if that's what you're asking https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg That Generac Generator is pretty typical stuff out here, if a bit puny, which is a Generac model 09067-9 8KW (67Amps) propane generator. Maybe the model number on this placard is ONLY for the solenoids? https://i.postimg.cc/MKnVYxgH/transfer13.jpg The part and assembly numbers on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model. This, for example, is the placard on the side of the panel inside: https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg And this sticker is also on the inside of the panel: https://i.postimg.cc/cLMqkqny/transfer10.jpg I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial number? http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup Now that's interesting! (I can call 888-922-8482 tomorrow.) http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup The link shows that there "should" be a transfer switch serial number! http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c But I don't see any number that would be a serial number yet. However while looking I found covers which have slightly different cards: https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires, terminals, fuses, etc. I agree. But first I have to figure out what they are. Why two transfer switches? I don't know. It's got to be standard stuff. Everything has to be to code. I suspect each box controls one hot wire, as when I pulled the Buss fuses, one side of the house turned off when the generator was running with no power coming in from PG&E. Both boxes seem almost perfect symmetric, so I think it's just one hot for each box. But that's why I asked about a typical setup, as this must be to code. Got a schematic of how you wired it? It came with the house, and it's to code since the house has all the permits filled, and it used to work but then stopped working about a year or two ago. What happens is that the power goes out, and then the generator turns on, but the two fist-sized solenoids don't trigger. I can trigger them manually by putting this handle which is screwed to the box into the big solenoid. https://i.postimg.cc/7PNgnwJV/transfer15.jpg Moving that lever down in each solenoid turns the transfer switch on. https://i.postimg.cc/nh3RRqs3/transfer14.jpg But that's supposed to happen automatically when the power goes out and the generator turns on. If not, trace the wires and make one. While I was looking for the serial number, I found the closest thing to a schematic, which is this placard on the inside of the cover (which has been off for a long time since the transfer switch no longer turns on automatically when the power goes out. *AUTOMATIC TRANSFER SWITCH FOR USE ON STANDBY SYSTEMS* Suitable for control of motors, electrical discharge lamps, tungsten filament lamps, and electric heating equipment where the sum of the motor full-load ampere ratings and the ampere ratings of other loads do not exceed the ampere rating of the switch and the tungsten load does not exceed 30 percent of the switch rating. *AUTOMATIC SEQUENCE* *UTILITY FAIL* - Utility voltage sensor senses when utility voltage level is below 60% of nominal. Engine start sequence is initiated after a 6-second time delay. *ENGINE WARMUP* - Time delay to allow for engine warmup before transfer. Fixed at 15 seconds. *STANDBY VOLTAGE* - Standby output voltage must be above 50% of nominal voltage before tansfer is allowed. *TRANSFER* - Switch transfers load from utility to standby supply; occurs after standby voltage is above set levels. *UTILITY PICKUP* - Utility voltage sensor. Voltage pickup level is 80% of nominal voltage. *RETRANSFTER* - Time delay after utility voltage supply is above pickup level before load is transferred from standby to utility. Fixed at 6 seconds. *ENGINE COOLDOWN* - Time delay for engine no-load cooldown. Fixed at 1 minute. System will operate automatically every seven days from the time of initial setting to ensure proper operation. Consult Owner's Manual for further explanation of Transfer System operating and features. Systems shall be tested periodically on a schedule acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction, to assure maintenance in proper operating condition. Enclosure is type 1, suitable for indoor installation. When protected with 200 ampere maximum (110a rated device) or 400 ampere maximum (200a rated device), Class J, T fuses, this switch is suitable for use on a circuit capable of delivering not more than 200,000 RMS symmetrical amperes, 250 volts maximum. When used with 200 ampere maximum circuit breaker 100 ampere device; 400 ampere maximum curcuit [sic] breaker 200 ampere device; (type G.E. TJK or Westinghouse HLC) this switch is suitable for use on a curcuit [sic] capable of delivering not more than 10,000 RMS symmetrical amperes, 250 volts maximum. Connect utility, standby generator supply and customer load as shown. *Transfer Switch:* N1 N2 N3 === Utility Supply T1 T2 T3 === Customer Load E1 E2 E3 === Standby Supply Terminal connectors tightening torque is 50 in-pounds (100a rated device) or 250 in-pounds (200a rated device). Control wiring terminal connectors tightening torque is 11 inch-pounds. 79959 D https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg |
#8
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Don't know why I'm getting involved here - but what you have is basically 2 SPDT contactors - on in each box, that switch the incoming feed to the main panel between the line and the generator. There are two becuase you need one for each side of the line - L1 and L2 Each contactor has 2 coils. When coil 1 is energized the contactor goesd toi position 1 - when coil 2 is energized it switches to position 2. It is (likely) controlled by generator control box via the "plastic relay" which when not energized powers the contactor to the "line" position and when energized to the "generator" position. It is EXTREMELY unlikey for both relays , both contactors, or both of any of the fuses in the switch assemblies to have failked so I would likely start at the genset, You COULD confirm the functionality of both relays and check all the fuses first if you want, but I expect that will be wasted effort. What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Very high faikure rate. Start the generator and check voltage output. Likely ZERO - which means it will never transfer. Genset may need to be "flashed" if it has not been used for years. No guarantee it is salvageable but worth a try. Something you should LIKELY get a generator tech to look at. See https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...t_man_2013.pdf Also see www.comdac.com/literature/generac/0d4001reva.pdf Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first. o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase) o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?) o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet. Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg 1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled: "Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A" "This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y #75595 - #79844 - #83494" https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg 2. The plastic relay is labeled o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC, o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC o 10 AMP 28 VCD o 8600, 20552-81, 9346 https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg 3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg 4. The junction strip is labeled o Utility 1 o Utility 2 o Load 1 o Load 2 o blank o 23 o 194 https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch? https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg |
#9
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:00:13 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:53:31 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:36:50 -0400, wrote: I had no problem finding the Generac wiring diagram for one switch but nothing for two. That is why I am asking if there are 2 emergency panels. The switch itself is a garden variety DPDT "non SDS" transfer switch. Thanks for offering suggestions and asking questions. I didn't wire it, but I'm pretty sure this is standard stuff. It's just typical stuff I don't know - but I'm sure it's to typical code, which means everyone wires them similarly I would think since there's no rocket science going on. I "think" the reason for the two panels is that each panel supplies half the house, which seems to be how it works when I pull the Buss fuses. But that's exactly why I asked if anyone knew how the TYPICAL setup works, since this has to be as typical as typical gets for such things, given it has to be to code which means everyone does it similarly. Back to your question, I don't know what an "emergency panel" is, as there's nothing "emergency" about this. PG&E power goes out once a month out here, for about a day on average, for about 10 to 12 times a year, where this setup isn't flipping those two fist-sized solenoids automatically. I can manually flip them, and the setup works - but not automatically - but I'm NOT asking about that - as the problem will literally scream out where it is if I only knew how these things are typically wired. Googling for what you mean by 'emergency panel", it "seems" that what you mean by "emergency panel" is the same as what I mean by "transfer switch", where I get the name of "transfer switch" right off the boxes themselves. In short, I "think" this is set up as typical as typical can be, which means anyone who knows how these things are set up would be able to explain it, where I get Jeff's point that I can follow the wires, but that still doesn't tell me WHAT each thing does - just where the wires go (and there are a zillion of them). I "think" the two panels are for two sides of the house, where I "assume" one panel has one hot and one neutral, while the other panel, I assume, has another hot and another neutral. Otherwise, why would the two panels be so exactly symmetric? This is one panel with an emergency panel If you have 2 panels, that explains it. There do seem to be parallel PoCo conductors feeding both switches. The small wires coming up to the one on the left is the generator. If you carefully wiggle each big wire going through the big nipple to identify them on each end you can prove all of that. https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-...iring-diagram/ What size panel do you have? Perhaps 2 100 amp switches in parallel for a larger panel??? Kinda mickey mouse - but possible????? |
#10
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:00:13 -0400, wrote:
This is one panel with an emergency panel If you have 2 panels, that explains it. There do seem to be parallel PoCo conductors feeding both switches. The small wires coming up to the one on the left is the generator. If you carefully wiggle each big wire going through the big nipple to identify them on each end you can prove all of that. https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-...iring-diagram/ Thanks for that document: https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-amp-transfer-switch-wiring-diagram/ I just found this also, but it's the wrong model number: https://soa.generac.com/manuals/6349405/0L0176 o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722 o Model Numbers RTSI100M3, RTSI200M3, RTSN100R3, RTSN200R3, RTSN400R3 Same with this one, which seems to be the wrong model number: http://soa.generac.com/manuals/3003429614/0L1517 o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722 o Model Numbers RTSW100G3, RTSW100J3, RTSW100K3, RTSW200G3, RTSW200J3, RTSW200K3 Unfortunately, I can't find a model number for the General Transfer Switch yet, but only model numbers for the big double-fisted solenoids. I will call Generac tomorrow though. |
#11
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:07:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
What size panel do you have? Perhaps 2 100 amp switches in parallel for a larger panel??? Kinda mickey mouse - but possible????? Hi Clare, That was a GREAT question since I just looked and it's NOT what I thought. I always thought I had 200Amp mains service, but I looked at the mains breaker which clearly says it's a 300Amp breaker, and on that same mains panel are three separate 100 Amp circuit breakers (plus a couple of 30 Amp spares). So the service must be 300 Amp mains service, where I looked again at the two double-fisted solenoids in the transfer switches, each of which says it's 100 Amps. That makes sense because when the transfer panels were working, they only ran "most" of the house, in that they didn't run the pool (which is one of the 100 Amp breakers I spoke about above on the main panel). Given that, here's what I "think" I have. o 300 Amp mains service (broken into 3 100 Amp circuits) o Transfer switch handles only 200 Amps (100 Amps per "box") Does that sort of sound like it might make sense? |
#12
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On 7/17/19 4:43 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? You can't possible be that stupid. This is just another one of your long rambling posts that goes on and on so you can listen to yourself. Kindly go **** yourself. That's your cue to (wrongfully as usual) call me Snit, because you just HAVE to reply. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
#13
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:56:52 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: How about a real Gernerac model number? Thanks for the additional questions as this pretty much has to be typical stuff - but I just have no experience with debugging transfer switches. This is the model number of the generator, if that's what you're asking https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg Nope. I'm looking for the model number or name of the transfer box so I can read the docs which should have wiring and installation instructions. Not much I can offer unless I know what you have. Methinks I found the install manual: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/rts_inst_man_2013.pdf "Installing Automatic Generator Generac Guardian" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kWuRHegXuk Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk2D3AQITGA Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kis7j2XNtw Part 3 The transfer box they used looks like yours. Start at 2:12. https://youtu.be/-Kis7j2XNtw?t=132 Notice that the terminal blocks are labeled. I did some digging and found that the only excuse for 2 transfer switches is two generators, or two different sources of backup power such as generator and solar inverter. I hate be the bearer of bad news, but you potentially have a miswired mess. I'm fairly sure it would not pass an electrical inspection in its present form. If you have time and money, find someone with a clue and let them fix the mess. My guess(tm) is they would recommend ripping it all out and starting over with the wiring and installation. Good luck. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#14
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Hi Clare, You are correct the generator is a puny 8KW Generac, model 09067-9 https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg This propane generator is so tiny that it's only capable of 67 Amps, so I'm not sure why there are two 100Amp transfer switches yet, but the house is 300 Amp mains service, where the pool is 100 Amps, and the house takes a circuit breaker each of 100 Amps. It used to work, but now, when the power goes out (which happens about monthly out here in the mountains), the generator kicks in automatically, but the house doesn't get the current because the double-fisted solenoids don't turn on automatically. I have to turn the solenoids on manually, which is the problem I'm trying to debug by asking how these two 100A transfer switches typically work. I did find the model number, just now, after climbing on a stool https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg This model number is hand written as Generac 79848A (DD). Googling for that model number, it does show up on Ebay. Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A Switch is CSA Certified for use with control module assembly #79844, #75595 and #83494 https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A $408.45 Buy It Now 32d 16h 48m 37s, Click to see shipping cost, 30-Day Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee Seller: sparkyinpa (13,861) 99.6%, Location: Reading, Pennsylvania, Ships to: US, Item: 153421838181 Condition: Used, Condition: This transfer switch is in good working condition was removed because the generator was upgraded. Inside is very clean. Message us for shipping quote., Model: 71340, MPN: #71340 #79848A, Brand: Generac, Rated Amperage: 100 A, Type: Automatic There are pictures with that Ebay listing which look almost exactly the same as mine does, so I'm pretty sure that's the model number. *GENERAC TRANSFER SWITCH* https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/153421838181_/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gJpTR3ST/transfer17.jpg *HOLE ON BOTTOM* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vCAAAOSwxetckUJz/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/0yJWBVh4/transfer18.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID* PN 71340, 250VAC, 100Amp Assembly _79848A_ https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihUAAOSwyQJckUJ7/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/TwTthfh8/transfer19.jpg *GUTS OF THE TRANSFER SWITCH* https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html#&gid=1&pid=3 https://i.postimg.cc/DzTgYnrW/transfer20.jpg *2Amp SlowBlow? BUSS SBS2 FUSES* (Mine are SBS4 and SBS5) https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg *PLACARD ON SIDE SAYING 600 Volt 2Amp* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~3kAAOSwAwxckUKF/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bJF18ht9/transfer22.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID CLOSEUP with manual lever* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/h54AAOSwWnhckUKI/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WbZ0Rxb0/transfer23.jpg *OWNERS MANUAL* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/24wAAOSwsixckUJu/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N0dH7cpv/transfer24.jpg |
#15
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:50:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Nope. I'm looking for the model number or name of the transfer box so I can read the docs which should have wiring and installation instructions. Not much I can offer unless I know what you have. I kept looking and found the model number of _each_ transfer switch! https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg The model number of _each_ transfer switch is: 79848A Googling for that model number finds an exact lookalike for _one_ box https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Here is just one of the eight pictures of that lookalike 79848A: https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg Methinks I found the install manual: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/rts_inst_man_2013.pdf "Installing Automatic Generator Generac Guardian" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kWuRHegXuk Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk2D3AQITGA Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kis7j2XNtw Part 3 The transfer box they used looks like yours. Start at 2:12. https://youtu.be/-Kis7j2XNtw?t=132 Notice that the terminal blocks are labeled. That's pretty close! https://youtu.be/-Kis7j2XNtw?t=132 The manual switch is different, and the generator is different - but it's similar, where I will go through that excellent video with my Fluke. I did some digging and found that the only excuse for 2 transfer switches is two generators, or two different sources of backup power such as generator and solar inverter. I checked my main panel, which is definitely 300 Amp mains service (I had always thought it was 200 amps, but it clearly has a 300 Amp main breaker, plus 3 separate 100 Amp breakers, where the house has two of them and the pool has one). I hate be the bearer of bad news, but you potentially have a miswired mess. I'm fairly sure it would not pass an electrical inspection in its present form. If you have time and money, find someone with a clue and let them fix the mess. My guess(tm) is they would recommend ripping it all out and starting over with the wiring and installation. The last guy who worked on that generator is in Santa Cruz, based on the label on the outside panel, which I found buried under stuff. This DEFINITELY WORKED so it's NOT miswired. The only problem is that the solenoids are not automatically kicking on. Here's what SHOULD happen: 1. PG&E power goes out about monthly 2. The Generac generator automatically turns on 3. The two transfer switches should automatically turn on 4. The house should have two 100 Amps (the pool does NOT have power) [Although the generator is puny - it's only able to output 67 amps!] 5. When PG&E comes back about 24 hours later - the generator turns off 6. The transfer switch transfers the two 100 Amps back to the mains Everything above is working EXCEPT - I have to MANUALLY flip the double-fisted solenoids. If I switch just ONE of them, I get only half the house. If I switch the SECOND one also, then I get the full house. So my main problem is troubleshooting why the double-fisted solenoid is not automatically turning on. |
#16
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 02:31:40 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:07:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: What size panel do you have? Perhaps 2 100 amp switches in parallel for a larger panel??? Kinda mickey mouse - but possible????? Hi Clare, That was a GREAT question since I just looked and it's NOT what I thought. I always thought I had 200Amp mains service, but I looked at the mains breaker which clearly says it's a 300Amp breaker, and on that same mains panel are three separate 100 Amp circuit breakers (plus a couple of 30 Amp spares). So the service must be 300 Amp mains service, where I looked again at the two double-fisted solenoids in the transfer switches, each of which says it's 100 Amps. That makes sense because when the transfer panels were working, they only ran "most" of the house, in that they didn't run the pool (which is one of the 100 Amp breakers I spoke about above on the main panel). Given that, here's what I "think" I have. o 300 Amp mains service (broken into 3 100 Amp circuits) o Transfer switch handles only 200 Amps (100 Amps per "box") Does that sort of sound like it might make sense? Sounds right to me. |
#17
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Don't know why I'm getting involved here - but what you have is basically 2 SPDT contactors - on in each box, that switch the incoming feed to the main panel between the line and the generator. There are two becuase you need one for each side of the line - L1 and L2 Each contactor has 2 coils. When coil 1 is energized the contactor goesd toi position 1 - when coil 2 is energized it switches to position 2. It is (likely) controlled by generator control box via the "plastic relay" which when not energized powers the contactor to the "line" position and when energized to the "generator" position. It is EXTREMELY unlikey for both relays , both contactors, or both of any of the fuses in the switch assemblies to have failked so I would likely start at the genset, You COULD confirm the functionality of both relays and check all the fuses first if you want, but I expect that will be wasted effort. What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Very high faikure rate. Start the generator and check voltage output. Likely ZERO - which means it will never transfer. Genset may need to be "flashed" if it has not been used for years. No guarantee it is salvageable but worth a try. Something you should LIKELY get a generator tech to look at. See https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...t_man_2013.pdf Also see www.comdac.com/literature/generac/0d4001reva.pdf Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first. o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase) o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?) o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet. Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg 1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled: "Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A" "This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y #75595 - #79844 - #83494" https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg 2. The plastic relay is labeled o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC, o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC o 3/4 HP 3 AMP 600 VAC o 10 AMP 28 VCD o 8600, 20552-81, 9346 https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg 3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg 4. The junction strip is labeled o Utility 1 o Utility 2 o Load 1 o Load 2 o blank o 23 o 194 https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch? https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg There are TWO DPDT switches there. I am not sure why they have two but there are two ungrounded conductors going to each throw of each switch and the line side seems to be parallel from the POCO. (See that big taped up split bolt on each ungrounded conductor on the right side). He said he has two load side panels serving half the house each and I suspect that is why he needs 2 switches. Essentially they are probably 2 100a panels fed by a 200a service. |
#18
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:07:13 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Hi Clare, You are correct the generator is a puny 8KW Generac, model 09067-9 https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg This propane generator is so tiny that it's only capable of 67 Amps, so I'm not sure why there are two 100Amp transfer switches yet, but the house is 300 Amp mains service, where the pool is 100 Amps, and the house takes a circuit breaker each of 100 Amps. It used to work, but now, when the power goes out (which happens about monthly out here in the mountains), the generator kicks in automatically, but the house doesn't get the current because the double-fisted solenoids don't turn on automatically. I have to turn the solenoids on manually, which is the problem I'm trying to debug by asking how these two 100A transfer switches typically work. I did find the model number, just now, after climbing on a stool https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg This model number is hand written as Generac 79848A (DD). Googling for that model number, it does show up on Ebay. Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A Switch is CSA Certified for use with control module assembly #79844, #75595 and #83494 https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A $408.45 Buy It Now 32d 16h 48m 37s, Click to see shipping cost, 30-Day Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee Seller: sparkyinpa (13,861) 99.6%, Location: Reading, Pennsylvania, Ships to: US, Item: 153421838181 Condition: Used, Condition: This transfer switch is in good working condition was removed because the generator was upgraded. Inside is very clean. Message us for shipping quote., Model: 71340, MPN: #71340 #79848A, Brand: Generac, Rated Amperage: 100 A, Type: Automatic There are pictures with that Ebay listing which look almost exactly the same as mine does, so I'm pretty sure that's the model number. *GENERAC TRANSFER SWITCH* https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/153421838181_/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gJpTR3ST/transfer17.jpg *HOLE ON BOTTOM* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vCAAAOSwxetckUJz/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/0yJWBVh4/transfer18.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID* PN 71340, 250VAC, 100Amp Assembly _79848A_ https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihUAAOSwyQJckUJ7/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/TwTthfh8/transfer19.jpg *GUTS OF THE TRANSFER SWITCH* https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html#&gid=1&pid=3 https://i.postimg.cc/DzTgYnrW/transfer20.jpg *2Amp SlowBlow? BUSS SBS2 FUSES* (Mine are SBS4 and SBS5) https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg *PLACARD ON SIDE SAYING 600 Volt 2Amp* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~3kAAOSwAwxckUKF/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bJF18ht9/transfer22.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID CLOSEUP with manual lever* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/h54AAOSwWnhckUKI/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WbZ0Rxb0/transfer23.jpg *OWNERS MANUAL* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/24wAAOSwsixckUJu/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N0dH7cpv/transfer24.jpg The transfer switches need to handle the full load of the down stream panels on PoCo power. You are switching two 100a feeders. BTW you will be sorry that you don't pick up the pool if your power is out in the summer. |
#19
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:07:13 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Hi Clare, You are correct the generator is a puny 8KW Generac, model 09067-9 https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg This propane generator is so tiny that it's only capable of 67 Amps, so I'm not sure why there are two 100Amp transfer switches yet, but the house is 300 Amp mains service, where the pool is 100 Amps, and the house takes a circuit breaker each of 100 Amps. The transfer switch needs to be sized fir the total LINE capacity, not just the genset It used to work, but now, when the power goes out (which happens about monthly out here in the mountains), the generator kicks in automatically, but the house doesn't get the current because the double-fisted solenoids don't turn on automatically. I have to turn the solenoids on manually, which is the problem I'm trying to debug by asking how these two 100A transfer switches typically work. Your crappy genset control board is not sensing the voltage output properly, the genset voltage is below spec, or the controller is mal-adjusted. If the genset voltage does not reach a specified value it will NOT switch over. That voltage may be adjustable or the sensor may be shot, Daughter just had to replace the control board on the heat pump on their boat because it was mis-reading the shore-power voltage by half - reading 57 instead of 114 - preventing the compressor from running. Was a blown chip onthe board that was no longer available for replacementby Flight Systems - the only facility in North America that services the board which has been obsolete since 2015 I did find the model number, just now, after climbing on a stool https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg This model number is hand written as Generac 79848A (DD). Googling for that model number, it does show up on Ebay. Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A Switch is CSA Certified for use with control module assembly #79844, #75595 and #83494 https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A $408.45 Buy It Now 32d 16h 48m 37s, Click to see shipping cost, 30-Day Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee Seller: sparkyinpa (13,861) 99.6%, Location: Reading, Pennsylvania, Ships to: US, Item: 153421838181 Condition: Used, Condition: This transfer switch is in good working condition was removed because the generator was upgraded. Inside is very clean. Message us for shipping quote., Model: 71340, MPN: #71340 #79848A, Brand: Generac, Rated Amperage: 100 A, Type: Automatic There are pictures with that Ebay listing which look almost exactly the same as mine does, so I'm pretty sure that's the model number. *GENERAC TRANSFER SWITCH* https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/153421838181_/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gJpTR3ST/transfer17.jpg *HOLE ON BOTTOM* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vCAAAOSwxetckUJz/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/0yJWBVh4/transfer18.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID* PN 71340, 250VAC, 100Amp Assembly _79848A_ https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihUAAOSwyQJckUJ7/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/TwTthfh8/transfer19.jpg *GUTS OF THE TRANSFER SWITCH* https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html#&gid=1&pid=3 https://i.postimg.cc/DzTgYnrW/transfer20.jpg *2Amp SlowBlow? BUSS SBS2 FUSES* (Mine are SBS4 and SBS5) https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg *PLACARD ON SIDE SAYING 600 Volt 2Amp* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~3kAAOSwAwxckUKF/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bJF18ht9/transfer22.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID CLOSEUP with manual lever* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/h54AAOSwWnhckUKI/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WbZ0Rxb0/transfer23.jpg *OWNERS MANUAL* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/24wAAOSwsixckUJu/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N0dH7cpv/transfer24.jpg |
#20
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
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#21
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
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#22
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:34:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
The transfer switch needs to be sized fir the total LINE capacity, not just the genset Thanks Clare. That makes sense then as to why the puny generator is only 67 Amps, but since the Mains is 200 Amps, it needs two transfer switches of nominally 100 Amps each. Your crappy genset control board is not sensing the voltage output properly, the genset voltage is below spec, or the controller is mal-adjusted. If the genset voltage does not reach a specified value it will NOT switch over. That voltage may be adjustable or the sensor may be shot, Thanks for that analysis, which I can't argue with. Some of these voltages appear to be hard coded, based on this sticker https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg Daughter just had to replace the control board on the heat pump on their boat because it was mis-reading the shore-power voltage by half - reading 57 instead of 114 - preventing the compressor from running. Was a blown chip onthe board that was no longer available for replacementby Flight Systems - the only facility in North America that services the board which has been obsolete since 2015 I'll start looking up where to source spare parts, after calling Generac tomorrow (1-800-GENERAC) to see if they still sell parts for this 79848A. One problem I realized is that I lost 2 of the Buss fuses, which "may" be why both transfer switches aren't turning on when the power goes out and the generator turns on. Funny thing is that advertisement for a similar transfer switch seems to have the "green" Buss 600Volt fuses spec'd at 2 Amp based on this picture of the Buss SBS-2 (green color code) for sale https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg Notice those are "SBS-2" green 600Volt fuses (not BBS!). The sticker on the side panel of that transfer switch for sale, and on my side panel both say the same thing, which "implies" 2 amp fuses at 600VAC. https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg My fuses appear to be red (not green), and they appear to be o BBS-4 (not SBS) o BBS-5 (not SBS) So what's odd is that mine are higher amperage, but also a different three letter code (mine are BBS while the one for sale is SBS). I tried to get these fuses at Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace today, but none of them stock these fuse sizes in the 600 VAC rating. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg I realized I'm _missing_ two fuses, where, I don't recall, but maybe I removed them to test them and never put them back? It would have been a long time ago (a year or two) so the _first_ thing I'm gonna do is source those Buss fuses after figuring out why some are 4amp and some are 5amp. I'm not sure _why_ some are the red 4 amp and some are 5 amp though (while the originals seem to be green 2 amp). Googling, SBS does NOT stand for "slow blow" but for fast-acting! https://www.ferrazfuses.com/cms_admin/fckeditor/editor/filemanager/connectors/php/bin/Midget%20Gen%20Pur%20SBS.pdf |
#23
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:22:39 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: The last guy who worked on that generator is in Santa Cruz, based on the label on the outside panel, which I found buried under stuff. This DEFINITELY WORKED so it's NOT miswired. The only problem is that the solenoids are not automatically kicking on. Let me guess... State Electric Generators formerly in Harvey West Park? They moved to Scotts Valley: https://www.stategen.com High prices and so-so work. You could do worse. State does much better work than what I saw in your photos which suggests that they were fixing something. Here's what SHOULD happen: 1. PG&E power goes out about monthly 2. The Generac generator automatically turns on 3. The two transfer switches should automatically turn on 4. The house should have two 100 Amps (the pool does NOT have power) [Although the generator is puny - it's only able to output 67 amps!] 5. When PG&E comes back about 24 hours later - the generator turns off 6. The transfer switch transfers the two 100 Amps back to the mains Everything above is working EXCEPT - I have to MANUALLY flip the double-fisted solenoids. If I switch just ONE of them, I get only half the house. If I switch the SECOND one also, then I get the full house. So my main problem is troubleshooting why the double-fisted solenoid is not automatically turning on. Try this video. Notice that the relays switch based on the condition of one input wire labeled "transfer". "Generac automatic transfer switch explained, demo" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg The "transfer" line on the terminal strip comes from the electronics that detects that the utility power has dropped and that the generator has produced stable power for XX number of seconds. When it gets both of those, it grounds the "transfer" wire, which closes the relay, etc. In other words, your problem is not in the relay box, but rather in whatever you're using for electronics to detect utility and generator power (and timers). In the above video, it's the black box with all the terminals and colorful labels. I don't see such a box full of electronics in your photo: https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Find the "transfer" terminal, disconnect whatever is connected to it, ground it, and see if it acts like the relay in the video. Incidentally, 200A service should use 2/0 copper (or 4/0 Aluminum or CCA) minimum. In some counties, it's 3/0 copper minimum. That doesn't look like 2/0 in the photo. More like #4. Color me very suspicious. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#24
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:25:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Let me guess... State Electric Generators formerly in Harvey West Park? They moved to Scotts Valley: https://www.stategen.com High prices and so-so work. You could do worse. State does much better work than what I saw in your photos which suggests that they were fixing something. You are pretty good Jeff, as these are the two stickers on the cover https://i.postimg.cc/GmMxjVLY/transfer27.jpg I generally obfuscate where I live, but suffice to say I can probably see your house from where I am, or close to it. Try this video. Notice that the relays switch based on the condition of one input wire labeled "transfer". "Generac automatic transfer switch explained, demo" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg I'm glad the narrator said he couldn't find out how it worked online, which is exactly the type of answer I'm asking about here. At 34 seconds he explained what that cryptic "194" meant! https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=34 And he explained what that cryptic "23" meant on my panel! https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg Whe o 23 === ground o 194 === +12VDC So I can now test the two-fisted solenoid by putting 12 VDC across them, which is what the generator should do, which will "transfer" the power from line power to generator power. (This is what I've been doing manually with the mechanical lever.) https://i.postimg.cc/HxWxgCnd/transfer28.jpg The narrator then showed that when the PG&E power is restored, the generator will _remove_ that 12VDC, which flips the two-fisted solenoid back to "line" power. The one bit of confusion is that he said at 90 seconds that each solenoid is controlling 240 volts, but I think it might only be controlling 120 volts (but I'm not sure if it's controlling 120V or 220V yet). https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=90 He then explained the transfer is controlled from the "plastic relay". https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg The "transfer" line on the terminal strip comes from the electronics that detects that the utility power has dropped and that the generator has produced stable power for XX number of seconds. When it gets both of those, it grounds the "transfer" wire, which closes the relay, etc. In other words, your problem is not in the relay box, but rather in whatever you're using for electronics to detect utility and generator power (and timers). In the above video, it's the black box with all the terminals and colorful labels. I don't see such a box full of electronics in your photo: https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg I agree his box is different than mine, where mine is just like this one: https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Mine and that one for sale are "simpler" looking than his is. Find the "transfer" terminal, disconnect whatever is connected to it, ground it, and see if it acts like the relay in the video. I think it should be easy to put 12VDC onto pins 23 & 194, but I need to get a bunch of those BBS-4 and BBS-5 fuses first. So my current plan is: a. Source the two missing BBS-4 (or?) BBS-5 fuses. b. Then test with 12VDC to see if the double-fisted solenoid operates If that makes it work, then my problem is likely the "sensing" circuitry, where this sticker explains all that sensing circuitry is hard coded, I think: https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg Incidentally, 200A service should use 2/0 copper (or 4/0 Aluminum or CCA) minimum. In some counties, it's 3/0 copper minimum. That doesn't look like 2/0 in the photo. More like #4. Color me very suspicious. You have a good eye, where all I can say is that I didn't wire it. I did INCORRECTLY say it was 300 Amp mains service, where, when I shined a light on it and put chalk on the mains breaker, it turns out to be 200Amp service. https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg What's odd is that there are _three_ 100 Amp sub panels! https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg Which seems kind of strange, but I didn't wire anything and all the permits that were pulled were closed, so, it must make sense (code wise). Two of those 100 Amp panels are in the house, and one is at the pool. I need to call Generac (800-GENERAC) where I'm confused about the fuses o Why BBS-4 _and_ BBS-5 fuses? https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg Once I source those hard-to-get fuses, I will test the 12VDC at cryptic pins 23 & 194. https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg If the double-fisted solenoid does not trigger... https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg then we know that the sensing circuit isn't working to put 12VDC across those two pins. https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg Thanks for that wonderful video. I'm a bit leery of what I can test with the MAINS connected though, since the power is currently running fine ... so I will need to be careful since it's only once a month that the PG&E power goes out for me to run the full test. |
#25
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:
I agree his box is different than mine, where mine is just like this one: https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html This is closer, but not exactly either, I think: https://www.generator-parts.com/manuals/home-standby/078590.pdf Apparently, they recommend testing the transfer switch _monthly_ https://www.ecmweb.com/contractor/test-transfer-switch This has a transfer switch testing sequence https://testguy.net/content/227-Transfer-Switch-Testing-and-Maintenance-Guide I found a paper copy of the 32-page owners manual, part number 98374 which is titled "Generac II Emergency Power Systems Owner's Manual" (revision 0, dated 11/22/1995) and which contains a generic parts list and exploded diagram for both the generator and transfer switch (apparently they come as a matched set). The four fuses in the exploded diagram just say 2 Amps 600Volts, but I wonder if mine are double that because there are two transfer switches (where on the net, the video Jeff provided _also_ used red 4 amp fuses!). https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=123 I found that two outfits will sell generac parts to the public online: https://www.jackssmallengines.com/ https://www.ordertree.com/ I'll call Generac tomorrow to get more details. 888-GENERAC (888-436-3722) extension 4, extension 2 1-262-544-4811 |
#26
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On 7/17/19 10:37 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 7/17/19 4:43 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? You can't possible be that stupid. This is just another one of your long rambling posts that goes on and on so you can listen to yourself. Kindly go **** yourself. +1 |
#27
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 11:07:16 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: What genset do you have? Generac by chance??? Hi Clare, You are correct the generator is a puny 8KW Generac, model 09067-9 https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg This propane generator is so tiny that it's only capable of 67 Amps, 67 amps at 120v, which is equivalent to a 33.5 amp service. But I wouldn't call an 8kw generator tiny either. so I'm not sure why there are two 100Amp transfer switches yet, but the house is 300 Amp mains service, where the pool is 100 Amps, and the house takes a circuit breaker each of 100 Amps. It used to work, but now, when the power goes out (which happens about monthly out here in the mountains), the generator kicks in automatically, but the house doesn't get the current because the double-fisted solenoids don't turn on automatically. I have to turn the solenoids on manually, which is the problem I'm trying to debug by asking how these two 100A transfer switches typically work. I did find the model number, just now, after climbing on a stool https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg This model number is hand written as Generac 79848A (DD). Googling for that model number, it does show up on Ebay. Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A Switch is CSA Certified for use with control module assembly #79844, #75595 and #83494 https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A $408.45 Buy It Now 32d 16h 48m 37s, Click to see shipping cost, 30-Day Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee Seller: sparkyinpa (13,861) 99.6%, Location: Reading, Pennsylvania, Ships to: US, Item: 153421838181 Condition: Used, Condition: This transfer switch is in good working condition was removed because the generator was upgraded. Inside is very clean. Message us for shipping quote., Model: 71340, MPN: #71340 #79848A, Brand: Generac, Rated Amperage: 100 A, Type: Automatic There are pictures with that Ebay listing which look almost exactly the same as mine does, so I'm pretty sure that's the model number. *GENERAC TRANSFER SWITCH* https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/153421838181_/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gJpTR3ST/transfer17.jpg *HOLE ON BOTTOM* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vCAAAOSwxetckUJz/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/0yJWBVh4/transfer18.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID* PN 71340, 250VAC, 100Amp Assembly _79848A_ https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihUAAOSwyQJckUJ7/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/TwTthfh8/transfer19.jpg *GUTS OF THE TRANSFER SWITCH* https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html#&gid=1&pid=3 https://i.postimg.cc/DzTgYnrW/transfer20.jpg *2Amp SlowBlow? BUSS SBS2 FUSES* (Mine are SBS4 and SBS5) https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg *PLACARD ON SIDE SAYING 600 Volt 2Amp* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~3kAAOSwAwxckUKF/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bJF18ht9/transfer22.jpg *DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID CLOSEUP with manual lever* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/h54AAOSwWnhckUKI/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WbZ0Rxb0/transfer23.jpg *OWNERS MANUAL* https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/24wAAOSwsixckUJu/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N0dH7cpv/transfer24.jpg |
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:28:13 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi
Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote: On 7/17/2019 3:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model. I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial number? http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires, terminals, fuses, etc. Why two transfer switches? Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make one. Liebermann? Is that jewish? What if it is some jew asshole? Are you 'anti-semitic'®™ or something??? |
#29
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 11:52:32 PM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:25:34 -0400, wrote: Essentially they are probably 2 100a panels fed by a 200a service. What amp service do most people have? Without taking a survey, who knows? It all depends on how large the place they live is and when it was built. 200A service is common in good size single family homes built in the last 30 years or so. I just put some chalk on the raised letters of my mains circuit breaker which showed the mains breaker to be 200 Amps (not 300 Amps as I stated prior). https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg There are three separate 100 Amp breakers, each going to a different panel. https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg So I think, at this point, that the reason for the TWO 100A Generac model 79848A transfer switches Sounds right and must have significantly increased the cost of the installation. Why you have two panels for the house, instead of one remains a mystery. I've seen new work here that uses two, for 4000 sq ft houses. They run a 300A service, use two panels right next to each other to hold the large number of breakers. https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg is simply that each one handles 100 amps nominally. https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Now I just need to figure out how to debug why this two-fisted solenoid isn't switching on automatically - but it does switch on when I flip it manually. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg As others have said, since neither one works, it's likely that the Generac generator isn't sending it the signal to switch over. The generator makes that decision. When the line voltage drops, it starts up the generator. Once the generator reaches proper voltage, it sends the cut-over signal. From what I've seen, Generac is crap. I assume that when you say it works when you manually cut it over that means the generator is generating proper voltage. But have you verified it with a meter? If it was putting out 100V or 130V, or 50hz, then the generator logic won't send the cut-over signal. If that's OK, then seems either something is wrong with the generator module/circuitry that controls it or the wiring in between. |
#30
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: If that makes it work, then my problem is likely the "sensing" circuitry, where this sticker explains all that sensing circuitry is hard coded, I think: https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg Methinks your first problem is finding the box that controls the automagic transfer switch (which contains the sensing, timing, and switching logic). Something like this: "Automatic Transfer Switch Controller Tutorial" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqhhcRAwTM It's probably inside the generator enclosure. Just look for another rats nest of wires. The thresholds, timing, interlock, etc settings are usually adjustable. I have two guesses: 1. The +12VDC that runs the relay is probably missing because the starter battery in the generator is dead, or the fuse that protects it is blown. That might explain the missing fuses. It might also be that State Electric took one look at the mess and ran away. There might be some lower voltage coming from the charger trying to charge a dead (shorted) cell. 2. Every controller I've seen has a self-test and/or test-run feature. You should be able to test the transfer switch with the test-run button instead of reworking the wiring. Also, I have some suggestions: 1. Don't play with the transfer switch with the utility AC power applied. The life you save may be your own. The undersized wires feeding the transfer switch should go to a double breaker on the main panel. Flip it open, check that there is now no AC on the contacts or anywhere in the rats nest of wires, and then troubleshoot. 2. Draw as schematic diagram and label everything. If this were my headache, that's the first thing I would do. 3. If you know a local electrician, who won't turn you in to the county, have him look at the wiring and make some recommendations. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#31
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:52:30 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:25:34 -0400, wrote: Essentially they are probably 2 100a panels fed by a 200a service. What amp service do most people have? I just put some chalk on the raised letters of my mains circuit breaker which showed the mains breaker to be 200 Amps (not 300 Amps as I stated prior). https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg There are three separate 100 Amp breakers, each going to a different panel. https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg So I think, at this point, that the reason for the TWO 100A Generac model 79848A transfer switches https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg is simply that each one handles 100 amps nominally. https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg Now I just need to figure out how to debug why this two-fisted solenoid isn't switching on automatically - but it does switch on when I flip it manually. https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg I would check the easy things first and be sure you don't have a blown fuse.Then test it by tripping the main breaker and see if it doesn't start the generator and flip over. Clare may be right tho. It could be a bad board. I think that board is probably expensive enough that you might want the generac guy to check it out before you start throwing them around. I am not sure what the trouble shooting technique would be. Maybe there is an answer to that on the net. |
#32
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 04:22:57 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:34:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: The transfer switch needs to be sized fir the total LINE capacity, not just the genset Thanks Clare. That makes sense then as to why the puny generator is only 67 Amps, but since the Mains is 200 Amps, it needs two transfer switches of nominally 100 Amps each. Your crappy genset control board is not sensing the voltage output properly, the genset voltage is below spec, or the controller is mal-adjusted. If the genset voltage does not reach a specified value it will NOT switch over. That voltage may be adjustable or the sensor may be shot, Thanks for that analysis, which I can't argue with. Some of these voltages appear to be hard coded, based on this sticker https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg Daughter just had to replace the control board on the heat pump on their boat because it was mis-reading the shore-power voltage by half - reading 57 instead of 114 - preventing the compressor from running. Was a blown chip onthe board that was no longer available for replacementby Flight Systems - the only facility in North America that services the board which has been obsolete since 2015 I'll start looking up where to source spare parts, after calling Generac tomorrow (1-800-GENERAC) to see if they still sell parts for this 79848A. One problem I realized is that I lost 2 of the Buss fuses, which "may" be why both transfer switches aren't turning on when the power goes out and the generator turns on. Funny thing is that advertisement for a similar transfer switch seems to have the "green" Buss 600Volt fuses spec'd at 2 Amp based on this picture of the Buss SBS-2 (green color code) for sale https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg Notice those are "SBS-2" green 600Volt fuses (not BBS!). The sticker on the side panel of that transfer switch for sale, and on my side panel both say the same thing, which "implies" 2 amp fuses at 600VAC. https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg My fuses appear to be red (not green), and they appear to be o BBS-4 (not SBS) o BBS-5 (not SBS) So what's odd is that mine are higher amperage, but also a different three letter code (mine are BBS while the one for sale is SBS). I tried to get these fuses at Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace today, but none of them stock these fuse sizes in the 600 VAC rating. https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg I realized I'm _missing_ two fuses, where, I don't recall, but maybe I removed them to test them and never put them back? It would have been a long time ago (a year or two) so the _first_ thing I'm gonna do is source those Buss fuses after figuring out why some are 4amp and some are 5amp. I'm not sure _why_ some are the red 4 amp and some are 5 amp though (while the originals seem to be green 2 amp). Googling, SBS does NOT stand for "slow blow" but for fast-acting! https://www.ferrazfuses.com/cms_admin/fckeditor/editor/filemanager/connectors/php/bin/Midget%20Gen%20Pur%20SBS.pdf There are literally dozens of varieties of fuses with different ratings of how they blow in that configuration. I would try to find out what Generac specs as the right fuse. For trouble shooting purposes a 2a or 4a in any rating would work based on what you are saying but long term I would get the one they spec. You could go to an electrical supply or order them online. Home Depot is only going to have the most popular sizes and ratings. |
#33
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:08:12 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi
Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote: On 7/18/2019 5:29 AM, jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)! wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:28:13 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote: On 7/17/2019 3:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model. I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial number? http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires, terminals, fuses, etc. Why two transfer switches? Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make one. Liebermann? Is that jewish? What if it is some jew asshole? Are you 'anti-semitic'®™ or something??? Only when it comes to self-hating jew ****s! Good to know. |
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
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#35
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:11:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Methinks your first problem is finding the box that controls the automagic transfer switch (which contains the sensing, timing, and switching logic). Something like this: "Automatic Transfer Switch Controller Tutorial" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqhhcRAwTM It's probably inside the generator enclosure. Just look for another rats nest of wires. The thresholds, timing, interlock, etc settings are usually adjustable. Hi Jeff, I agree with you, and I can clearly see that there is a rat's nest inside the generator, which must be doing the initial sensing of the power in the first place, as you mentioned. I think my task is EASIER than looking at that rat's nest inside the generator though, since all I need are the wires coming OUT of the generator. I'm not sure yet where to FIND those wires inside the transfer switch, but I think the first (and only?) place I need to look is at what the pins of that "plastic solenoid" do... https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg since that solenoid seems to send the purple and blue wire 12VDC to the "double-fisted solenoid" to switch power from the mains to the generator. https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg I have two guesses: 1. The +12VDC that runs the relay is probably missing because the starter battery in the generator is dead, or the fuse that protects it is blown. That might explain the missing fuses. It might also be that State Electric took one look at the mess and ran away. There might be some lower voltage coming from the charger trying to charge a dead (shorted) cell. I understand and appreciate this assessment, where there's LOTS I didn't mention (which is always the case in such things), mainly the fact being I "think" it was me who pulled those fuses long ago and forgot to put them back (I think I was testing them but I don't actually recall). Also, you're actually correct that the battery in the generator WAS dead, since I had disconnected it to charge it, and then I had left it disconnected where the charge eventually bled off. I actually had to jumpstart the generator when the power last went out, but I have since charged the battery (I'm gonna put quick connect clamps on the battery at some point, which will help in the charging process since I have multiple spare batteries I swap in and out of that generator). 2. Every controller I've seen has a self-test and/or test-run feature. You should be able to test the transfer switch with the test-run button instead of reworking the wiring. This is good to know, for two reasons: 1. This is dangerous stuff so having safe tests is required, and, 2. Most of what I read suggested testing MONTHLY (which is crazy frequent) Also, I have some suggestions: 1. Don't play with the transfer switch with the utility AC power applied. The life you save may be your own. The undersized wires feeding the transfer switch should go to a double breaker on the main panel. Flip it open, check that there is now no AC on the contacts or anywhere in the rats nest of wires, and then troubleshoot. Thanks for that advice, Jeff, as I'm well aware of the power, but I'm not sure yet how to test a transfer switch. It does seem prudent to test the transfer switch ISOLATED from BOTH the mains and the generator. Preventing the generator from turning on should be easy as it has a power switch and it requires the battery so it's easy to prevent it from turning on. I'm not totally sure simply turning OFF the mains will isolate the transfer switch - but that's simply because I'm currently ignorant of the wiring diagram (which is one reason you said to do that first). If the power goes from the power pole to the utility meter to the main 200 Amp breaker switch, and THEN to the transfer switch, then doing all tests with the main 200Amp circuit breaker off is prudent. (Obviously I'd doublecheck with the Fluke DMM.) 2. Draw as schematic diagram and label everything. If this were my headache, that's the first thing I would do. Yup. I agree. I had wanted from this question on Usenet to first get a general idea of how these transfer switches work - which - I think I kind of now have - but the exact wiring of every connection is still needed before I can effectively troubleshoot. Generac sent me the owners manual for my 09067-9 generator, which contains exploded diagrams, for example, here's the exploded diagram of the 09067-9 Generator Control Panel: https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg And the wiring diagram for the 09067-9 generator itself: https://i.postimg.cc/wMg9DggX/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg And here's the exploded view for the 79848A transfer switch: https://i.postimg.cc/Hx4VqSLt/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Exploded-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-18.jpg And the wiring diagram for the 79848A transfer switch: https://i.postimg.cc/1XFTVs7N/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Wiring-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-15.jpg 3. If you know a local electrician, who won't turn you in to the county, have him look at the wiring and make some recommendations. Once, I called a well pump guy, and told him I had a problem, which he fixed, but I told him before he came out to charge me based on the fact I would be standing there right next to him as he debugged, asking him questions while he did the work in front of me. It was then that I noticed he simply replaced entire circuit boards, simply by the process of pulling them out, putting the new one in, and finding that it worked, so he was about to take the old circuit board "home" with him, where I said if I'm paying for the new one, I want the old one (I still have it). Some day I'll figure out specifically what's "wrong" with it. A similar thing happened with the heater repairman, who simply replaced the main circuit board, but he insisted that there was a core charge which _he_ wanted back - and that he's have to charge me for that - so he got the core charge, not me. I learned from that that these guys replace the entire board rather than figure out what's wrong ON the board. Given that replacing things seems to be what the repair techs do also, in this case, I think I have three options, two of which are what many people use, while the third option is the approach I'm currently trying: 1. Replace everything, one by one, until the damn thing works 2. Pay State Electric or Spiess Electric to fix it (in my presence) 3. Debug the damn thing (after first figuring out how it works) Personally, I like to debug first, where simply UNDERSTANDING how the circuit works usually causes the offending part to SCREAM OUT that it's broken. To that end, I'll follow your advice and start marking up the panel with a label of the purpose of each of the myriad connections. |
#36
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
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#37
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:22:44 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... There are literally dozens of varieties of fuses with different ratings of how they blow in that configuration. I would try to find out what Generac specs as the right fuse. For trouble shooting purposes a 2a or 4a in any rating would work based on what you are saying but long term I would get the one they spec. You could go to an electrical supply or order them online. Home Depot is only going to have the most popular sizes and ratings. There is often a big misunderstanding about fuses. Where I worked 2 men from the Buss fuse comapny gave a talk. At one time they had many fuses with the statement a fuse for every application. But the new selling point was that one fuse could replace many kinds. Mostly all advertising hype. They even handed out a plastic chart about 5x7 inches with all the fuses that could be replaced by their 'newer' fuse. As long as the fuse fits in the holder and has a high or higher voltage rating, the fast/slow blow, and current ratings are the same it is ok to use most any of the many types in many cases. They could stop making any fuse rated below 600VDC and nobody would miss them. They could make every fuse "fast quench" too. They'd just be a lot more expensive - but the savings in stocking costs might almost balance it out, |
#38
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 17:59:19 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:22:44 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... There are literally dozens of varieties of fuses with different ratings of how they blow in that configuration. I would try to find out what Generac specs as the right fuse. For trouble shooting purposes a 2a or 4a in any rating would work based on what you are saying but long term I would get the one they spec. You could go to an electrical supply or order them online. Home Depot is only going to have the most popular sizes and ratings. There is often a big misunderstanding about fuses. Where I worked 2 men from the Buss fuse comapny gave a talk. At one time they had many fuses with the statement a fuse for every application. But the new selling point was that one fuse could replace many kinds. Mostly all advertising hype. They even handed out a plastic chart about 5x7 inches with all the fuses that could be replaced by their 'newer' fuse. As long as the fuse fits in the holder and has a high or higher voltage rating, the fast/slow blow, and current ratings are the same it is ok to use most any of the many types in many cases. They could stop making any fuse rated below 600VDC and nobody would miss them. They could make every fuse "fast quench" too. They'd just be a lot more expensive - but the savings in stocking costs might almost balance it out, There are plenty of engineers who would disagree with you. Fuse science can get pretty complicated and you certainly don't want the same fuse protecting a HVAC compressor (long time delay, dual element) as you would use on an inverter converter power supply (single element, very fast acting). IBM lists over 250 fuses in the handy dandy handbook. That is from tiny fractional amp 3/8" long solder in fuses to bolt in blade fuses the size of a knockwurst at hundreds of amps.. |
#39
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:45:43 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: Generac sent me the owners manual for my 09067-9 generator, which contains exploded diagrams, for example, here's the exploded diagram of the 09067-9 Generator Control Panel: https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg And the wiring diagram for the 09067-9 generator itself: https://i.postimg.cc/wMg9DggX/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg The wiring diagram of the generator shows the (missing) controller, with all the connections to the automatic transfer switch. Pg12 of the manual, lower schematic, shows wires 23 and 194 going to the transfer switch. Since the other end of these wires goes only to the solenoid (relay) coil, I would presume that these should have 0V across them when the transfer switch is on utility power, and 12VDC(?) when it on generator power. Put an LED and resistor across both solenoid coil terminals so you can see what's happening without fumbling with a volts guesser. Unfortunately, there's no schematic for the controller logic board which runs the show. Near the controller logic board is SW1, which is the "start/stop" switch. That should NOT activate the relay on the transfer switch. This is the generator test switch which I previously indicated was on all such autostart generators. SW2 is labeled "Set Exercise Switch" which is something like a "test" switch but also is not intended to test the transfer switch. There should be something in the manual on how to use this switch. Here's a video that might offer a clue on what I think is a similar generator: "How To Set Exercise Time on Generac Air Cooled Generator Pre Nexus Controller APSwrap" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go0qt4n0dhs There's quite a bit on how a proper test switch should operate: https://www.google.com/search?q=automatic+transfer+switch+test This is a typical generator test which demonstrates proper operation: "Home Generator Transfer Test" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1a-fST3cE Also on the schematic is the fuse F1 (15A), which appears to protect the controller 12VDC battery line. Check this fuse if you have a good 12VDC battery, but no controller function. If this 15A fuse is actually blown, you potentially have a high current short somewhere in the generator on the 12VDC line. Be careful tracking this one down. And here's the exploded view for the 79848A transfer switch: https://i.postimg.cc/Hx4VqSLt/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Exploded-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-18.jpg And the wiring diagram for the 79848A transfer switch: https://i.postimg.cc/1XFTVs7N/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Wiring-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-15.jpg Remember, you have but one life to give for your backup power system. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#40
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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
UPDATE:
Hi Jeff, As you're aware, PG&E has cut our power here near Santa Cruz and the hills surrounding Silicon Valley, where the fact I'm able to post this means I figured out what the problem was with the power from the generator not getting to the house. https://i.postimg.cc/G37D8Jq6/breaker01.jpg I had _thought_ it was the transfer switch, simply because a couple of those SBS-2 600V 2Amp fast acting ferrule fuses were missing, but it turns out that when I replaced the two missing fuses, nothing changed. https://i.postimg.cc/ryNkQQvY/breaker03.jpg It turns out that half of the part #5 was broken inside (invisibly so) https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg o Generac Part Number #74969 35Amp Circuit Breaker I'm not sure if that's the same part as "CB1" in bottom right of this page: https://i.postimg.cc/Zqf00Y5K/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg But it's Generac Part Number 74969 35 Amp Circuit Breaker (2 ganged poles), which disconnects 120VAC power based on my measurements on the breaker. https://i.postimg.cc/vmTTdpdB/breaker02.jpg This is what it says on the circuit breaker itself: Carling Switch Inc. AA2.B0.24.635.5D1.C FL AMP 35 MAX VOLTS 227 (? hard to tell) HERTZ 50/60 DELAY 04 (? hard to tell) TRIP AMPS 43 (? hard to tell) Mexico 9513 (probably the 13th week in 1995) Where the complete circuit diagram is outlined already in this older post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.repair/QhSY4KWN-Kw/P-R0-y6CBAAJ In summary, there were two problems concurrently: 1. The fuses were missing in the transfer switch 2. Half the circuit breaker was internally broken The result was that there was no electricity in the house when the PG&E power went out until I replaced the fuses; and there was only electricity to half the house. The 35Amp ganged circuit breaker has two "LINE" and two "LOAD" terminals, where, each circuit breaker innervates half the house. -- Solving electrical problems with advice from helpful posters on Usenet. |
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