UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.

For example, the "drop center" trick that Clare taught me was, by far, the
most critical trick of all. And, this time, I learned that it's a bad idea
leaving the packing tape on the tires as it makes it harder to seat the
bead if the beads are bent inward versus pushed out a bit.

While I've done all sizes from 15" wheels to 17" wheels, these 15" P225/75
Optimo H724 tires have thick sidewalls that make it a bit more difficult
than the 99V passenger car tires to break the 1st bead and seat the 6th
bead.

One mistake I made was to leave the packing tape still on the tires while
they waited for me to find my "round tuit", where the pinching in of the
beads made seating the tire problematic for the few seconds that it takes
to pop the bead into place.

I had to ask a second person to help pull up the upper bead with one hand
and a knee while I pushed up from below with two hands, where another trick
I learned long ago was to adapt an airgun to screw into the Schrader valve
so that filling it with air during the bead-seating process is essentially
hands free.

This mountain eats up everyone's tires, which _never_ get the claimed
mileage (not even close) but I can't use the warranty because I can't prove
that I do all the work myself.

Cost savings at $20/tire = $600 minus about $200 for tools = $400 to date,
but the real value is the satisfaction of being able to do it myself.

Here are some photos, just so you see what it looks like.
o This SUV needs to be taken in for a front-end alignment:
https://i.postimg.cc/q7t7ZRzj/mount01.jpg
o Breaking the 1st bead takes a couple of minutes:
https://i.postimg.cc/26DfF8vq/mount02.jpg
o The outside edge of the front tires wears too much:
https://i.postimg.cc/Hx2Fw0dK/mount03.jpg
o TREADWEAR is said to be 500 (but it won't get that):
https://i.postimg.cc/1zSWvgCZ/mount04.jpg
o The tire valves are about 1-1/2 inch long (.453):
https://i.postimg.cc/sXX4L55b/mount05.jpg
o I replaced the valves with all-metal valves:
https://i.postimg.cc/nVNNvLJn/mount06.jpg
o This home-made adaptor works great to seat the beads:
https://i.postimg.cc/WzZW9MvT/mount07.jpg
o Leaving the packing tape on was a bad idea:
https://i.postimg.cc/DwnjgJY3/mount08.jpg
o I mounted the "red spot" next to the tire valve:
https://i.postimg.cc/Pqq6GGj6/mount09.jpg

For anyone who wants to do it yourself, the tools cost about $200 where I
got most of mine from Harbor Freight, where those tools suck, but they do
the job.

What you need is:
o A dedicated bead breaker (the one with the mounter sucks even worse).
This tool is a pain to use but it breaks a bead in a couple of minutes.
You have to put a board on it because the base is too short.
o A bolted-in tire-mounting tool (you _must_ bolt it down!)
The bead breaker attachment on the mounter is nearly worthless.
o A static bubble balancer
o A set of tire irons (these aren't necessary, but are sometimes helpful
when you have a problem with the 6th and final bead)
o Vise grips - you need them - surprisingly - because the HF mounting tool
handle twists in your hands so the vise grips provide leverage to keep it
from twisting.
o A Schrader Valve Screwdriver (you need this to remove the insert so that
you can quickly fill the tire to set the beads during the final step)
o Dish detergent (everything is surprisingly easy when lubricated)
o Tire marking pen (to mark the inside sidewall after each rotation)
o Wheel weights (to static balance the wheel after mounting)
o Hammer (to tap the wheel weights into place)
o I have a valve-stem removal tool but it's not needed (just use a knife)
o Floor jack, wheel chocks, jack stands, lug wrench, torque wrench (to
remove and replace the wheels from the vehicle)
o Compressor, hoses, chucks, gauges (to seat the bead & fill the tire with
air)

Parts:
o Tires (Costco takes old tires for $1 each, plus sales tax)
o Wheel weights (it seems that 1 to 2 ounces seems to be needed most
o Valve stems (I kind of like the 0.453 diameter 1-1/2 inch steel ones)

On 4/29/19 4:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.



I've considered a lot of hobbies to amuse myself while I ride this dirt ball around the Sun but I must admit that tire wrestling is not one of them.Â* But hey, if it blows your skirt up, knock yourself out.

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 6:08:06 AM UTC-4, Biff Tannen wrote:
On 4/29/19 4:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier..



I've considered a lot of hobbies to amuse myself while I ride this dirt ball around the Sun but I must admit that tire wrestling is not one of them.Â* But hey, if it blows your skirt up, knock yourself out.

And 30 tires in five years. He's a very busy troll.

On 4/29/2019 4:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.


This mountain eats up everyone's tires, which _never_ get the claimed
mileage (not even close) but I can't use the warranty because I can't prove
that I do all the work myself.

Cost savings at $20/tire = $600 minus about $200 for tools = $400 to date,
but the real value is the satisfaction of being able to do it myself.

Whatever works for you. n the past 15 years I paid to have 8 tires
changed. No payback for me.

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:05:42 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/29/2019 4:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.


This mountain eats up everyone's tires, which _never_ get the claimed
mileage (not even close) but I can't use the warranty because I can't prove
that I do all the work myself.

Cost savings at $20/tire = $600 minus about $200 for tools = $400 to date,
but the real value is the satisfaction of being able to do it myself.

Whatever works for you. n the past 15 years I paid to have 8 tires
changed. No payback for me.

About the same here, 4 in the last 5 years. Got them mounted at Costco
for $15 each. They will even mount tires that you don't buy there.
And they dynamically balance them too, which you can't do at home.
I do a lot of work on cars myself, brakes, transfer case chain, valve
cover gaskets, water pumps, but not this when you can get it
done in 20 mins for $15 a tire. Those other repairs just use the typical
shop tools that I already have and I saved $$$$. Transfer case chain is
a good example, it would be $3000 at the BMW dealer, I did it for $100.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:05:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/29/2019 4:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.


This mountain eats up everyone's tires, which _never_ get the claimed
mileage (not even close) but I can't use the warranty because I can't prove
that I do all the work myself.

Cost savings at $20/tire = $600 minus about $200 for tools = $400 to date,
but the real value is the satisfaction of being able to do it myself.

Whatever works for you. n the past 15 years I paid to have 8 tires
changed. No payback for me.
The mounting and ballancing on my Haks was free - cost me the same
mounted and ballanced as "cash and carry" - and repairs are free for
the life of the tire. I changed enough tires in my working years that
I don't need to do it as a hobby - and particularly with ****ty
equipment. As for balancing, a static balance uis betterthan none,
but a 1/4 oz resolution on a dynamic balance is pretty much a
requirement for me at highway speeds. I want my tires running SMOOTH
AS SILK - not just balanced well enough to keep them from shaking the
hubcaps off.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 08:06:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

About the same here, 4 in the last 5 years. Got them mounted at Costco
for $15 each. They will even mount tires that you don't buy there.

Hi trader_4,

Usenet is a shared information source, sort of like a Potluck Picnic, where
each person tries to bring something of value to all to the picnic table.

Hence, every post is designed to add value for everyone, so I THANK YOU for
that purposefully helpful and very useful information about the Costco
setup.

The Costco near me _used_ to refuse to mount non-Costco tires, so I was
surprised that you said yours mounts non-Costco tires.

Armed with your purposefully helpful information, I called the local Costco
at (831)469-0961 x5 (other), x4 (auto), who confirmed EXACTLY what you just
said!

This is great news, where I'll contribute this to the Potluck Picnic:
o $60 to mount four tires on four wheels (on or off the vehicle)
o $20 to dynamically balance four wheels (if they are off the vehicle)
o $22 to dynamically balance four wheels (if they are on the vehicle)
o $11 to repair a tire
o $1 to dispose of old tires (the guy said that's what they get charged)

In addition:
o They won't let you ship tires to them; but you can bring them in.
o They won't mount tires older than 3 years (based on the date stamp)
o They will rotate & balance tires that are older than 3 years though
o You don¢t get the Costco-tire free lifetime balance & rotation though
o They will not touch tires below the 2/32" wear bars for any purpose

When I asked the Costco guy _when_ this started, the guy said they used to
work on non-Costco tires years ago, and then stopped, and now started it up
only about two years ago.

And they dynamically balance them too, which you can't do at home.

Just to be clear, and to ensure we're always adding value to the potluck
picnic that is Usenet, the empirical dynamic balance test is free, and
extremely easily done "at home".

You just drive the car at highway speeds.
o If you can't feel vibration, it's dynamically balanced (AFAIK).

Besides, with this new information you've kindly brought to the Potluck
Picnic which is Usenet, for $20 in toto, we can _check_ how well we
statically balanced the four wheels.

This is _great_ news you brought up that Costco does this for us!
o Thanks for bringing value for all in the Potluck Picnic that is Usenet

I do a lot of work on cars myself, brakes, transfer case chain, valve
cover gaskets, water pumps, but not this when you can get it
done in 20 mins for $15 a tire.

Hi trader,
I agree with you on your facts of the Costco prices, and on most of your
logic (adults are funny in that facts are easy to agree on, as is rational
logic).

Your logic is that it's "easier" to let Costco do it all for you, where the
facts I'll contribute which affect the logic is that I've never been to
Costco tire center without standing on long lines, even if I get there at
opening time, so the _actual_ time is no where near 20 minutes for four
tires.

Obviously the actual time will vary greatly, but 20 minutes doesn't seem
rational to me for four tires at a typical Costco, which, I hope most
people know, isn't exactly known for short lines (e.g., even the gas
station lines are long, as are the food court lines, and the purchasing
lines, and even the line to ask a question of the eyeglass center or
pharmacists).

Where on earth to you have a Costco which not only has no lines, but which
does the entire job in 20 minutes for four tires, where I can't even get to
the counter in that time frame, let alone have them do all the paperwork
and pay for it, etc. in that time frame?

Those other repairs just use the typical
shop tools that I already have and I saved $$$$. Transfer case chain is
a good example, it would be $3000 at the BMW dealer, I did it for $100.

Hi trader,
As you're aware, I did a clutch a few months back, with the help of this
newsgroup, as I had to replace the flywheel, for example, which required
tools that I couldn't find at the local auto parts stores (the pilot
bearing pulling tools were too large to fit in the ID of the pilot
bearing).

This newsgroup is GREAT for learning things, since there are helpful people
here who contribute to the potluck picnic something that EVERYONE can learn
from.

My contribution is that the job is easy, and it takes about the same amount
of time (when you factor everything in) as having a shop do it, so you
don't do the job at home to save time.

You mostly do the job at home to learn, and to enjoy doing it, and to
relish in the _knowledge_ gained by doing things yourself, which is, after
all, a key purpose of doing _any_ repair by yourself.

As for savings, with this "new costco math", the savings, in 5 years, a
o $450 at Costco for 30 tires minus $200 for tools = savings of only $250

If we add the dynamic balance check, the math becomes:
o $250 minus $20 = about $225 (I'm rounding numbers for easy math)

The key point to make is that there are _benefits_ to home repair
o One key benefit is that you _learn_ more about things
o Another key benefit is that you can do it any time you want to
o Another benefit is that you can do it more often when you do it yourself
o Another benefit is that you can "save" tires they won't repair (if you
want to, as it's your choice based on your decision tree)
o The best benefit is the satisfaction of self sufficiency

The cost benefit is always going to be there ... for example, the tools
almost always pay for themselves ... but that's not the main reason you do
home repair yourself.

The main reason is that you learn about and enjoy home repairs, and that
you have the convenience of doing the job the way you want the job done
(e.g., you use steel tire valves even if the tire shop doesn't use them).

Arlen G. Holder wrote:

o I mounted the "red spot" next to the tire valve:
https://i.postimg.cc/Pqq6GGj6/mount09.jpg

Should I mention that traditionally the red spot is the "high" point of
the tire, and would match with the "low" point of a slightly-not-round
wheel, and the yellow dot is the "light" part of the tire, and matches
with the "heavy" part of the wheel, usually where the valve is? Nah,
that would be mean.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:02:32 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

As for savings, with this "new costco math", the savings, in 5 years, a
o $450 at Costco for 30 tires minus $200 for tools = savings of only $250

If we add the dynamic balance check, the math becomes:
o $250 minus $20 = about $225 (I'm rounding numbers for easy math)

Oooops. The math may be off a bit as it was off the cuff above, but the
math isnt' the main reason you get satisfaction out of being self
sufficient, just as the math in the enjoyment of composting isn't in the
saving you might get from having a smaller garbage pail.

IMHO, if we want to talk savings, I suspect the real savings are that you
can choose any tire you like when you buy the lowest priced best-quality
tires at a reputable outlet such as "SimpleTire", which, alone, saves you a
ton of money where they don't charge sales tax or shipping most of the time
in addition to having great prices, and _then_ you can mount them yourself,
or, you can have Costco mount & balance them for $15, or, you can have
Costco just balance them for $5.

The point is that most people make excuses when the reality always seems to
be that they just don't like getting their hands dirty on this job, where
the main reason for doing a home repair like this is, IMHO, the
satisfaction of being self sufficient and in doing the job right (e.g.,
metal valves, heavy spot properly placed, fewest wheel weights, etc.).

There are other ancillary advantages, e.g., you can fix things when stores
are closed, you can do them in your pajamas without having to wait in lines
at the shop, you can fix things that they might not touch, e.g., nearer to
the shoulder than they might fix or more worn than they might touch, etc.,
all of which are adult decisions YOU can make, and not them (as long as
you're aware of the RMA guidlines which we all presumably are well aware
of).

You can even patch a leak from the outside, if you do it at home, where
nobody here is likely to be insisting they never did that in their life!


In short, most of what I hear from people as to why they don't like doing
their homework is from people who have _never_ done it.

The ones who have never done it always seem to have the mnost excuses.
o When the fact is that it's trivially easy to mount/balance at home.

As far as I know, only Clare has done it, and he is clear that he doesn't
like doing it, particulrly with ****ty equipment, where I don't disagree
and where I applaud his honesty.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:05:44 -0700, Sanity Clause wrote:

Should I mention that traditionally the red spot is the "high" point of
the tire, and would match with the "low" point of a slightly-not-round
wheel, and the yellow dot is the "light" part of the tire, and matches
with the "heavy" part of the wheel, usually where the valve is? Nah,
that would be mean.

Hi Sanity Claus,

I appreciate those comments, where, if you have a cite that backs up your
belief system, I think it would be useful to all, as Usenet is designed to
be a potluck picnic where each person adds value where they can.

Without further cites, I'd just note offhand that we have a looooooooong
thread on a.h.r, as I recall, on this topic of exactly what the red and
yellow spots mean, which can be _different_ for each manufacturer (and
which aren't always there).

For example, we've covered that the marks are generally most useful for
brand-new wheels (where the original match mounting marks are still
visible), and we've covered why the light spot is still generally the valve
area (all else being equal, of course), even though there's an "additional"
valve there, simply because the plug of missing steel is generally heavier
than the rubber & brass valve despite the very many old intuitive wives
tales to the contrary.

I'm all about facts, where we've looked at the cites in the past to
conclude that, in the absence of match-mounting marks on the wheel, the
best course for a starting point mount at home is the red spot goes next to
the valve if you have a red spot, and if you have only a yellow spot, as I
recall, it goes opposite the valve (but I'd have to dig up the cites to
doublecheck on that as most tires I've mounted have both the red and yellow
so I only use the red mark as my starting point).

In summary, if you can back up your belief system with a cite, I'll read
it, and if you want, I can dig up cites that back up my belief system since
my belief system is never imaginary - my belief system is _always_ based on
actual facts.

If facts show I need to _change_ my belief system, then I'll change it.
o But at the moment, the facts show the red dot goes next to the valve
(for stock steel wheels, and for most manufacturers' tires)

If you have facts that show otherwise, please cite them so we all benefit
from every post.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:00:32 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

If facts show I need to _change_ my belief system, then I'll change it.
o But at the moment, the facts show the red dot goes next to the valve
(for stock steel wheels, and for most manufacturers' tires)

I'm always beholden to facts as I abhor imaginary belief systems.

Since I'm allergic to the intuition of old wives tales, but also since my
memory is not even close to perfect, I looked up the cites again, even
though I haven't read them in years, where it must be noted that the only
perfect cite will be one from Hancook, which I didn't find, so we have to
go on what we can find.

This is what Yokohama says about tire match mounting & balancing
https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting
"To facilitate proper balancing, Yokohama places red and yellow marks on
the sidewalls of its tires to enable the best possible match-mounting of
the tire/wheel assembly. There are two methods of match-mounting Yokohama
tires to wheel assemblies using these red or yellow marks:

Uniformity (red mark)
"If the point of minimum radial run-out is not indicated on a wheel
assembly, the weight method of match-mounting should be used."

Weight (yellow mark)
"When performing weight match-mounting, the yellow mark on the tire,
indicating the point of lightest weight, should be aligned with the valve
stem on the wheel assembly, which represents the heaviest weight point of
the wheel assembly. "

This is exactly what you said, and the exact opposite of what I had said,
so I appreciate that you bring up that my memory was faulty.

Moving on for confirmation... I'll tackle a couple more hits & respond, but
I wanted to THANK YOU for bringing up the point that my memory was faulty,
which I APPRECIATE greatly!

I'm always beholden to facts as I abhor imaginary belief systems.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:00:32 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:05:44 -0700, Sanity Clause wrote:

Should I mention that traditionally the red spot is the "high" point of
the tire, and would match with the "low" point of a slightly-not-round
wheel, and the yellow dot is the "light" part of the tire, and matches
with the "heavy" part of the wheel, usually where the valve is? Nah,
that would be mean.

Hi Sanity Claus,

I appreciate those comments, where, if you have a cite that backs up your
belief system, I think it would be useful to all, as Usenet is designed to
be a potluck picnic where each person adds value where they can.

Without further cites, I'd just note offhand that we have a looooooooong
thread on a.h.r, as I recall, on this topic of exactly what the red and
yellow spots mean, which can be _different_ for each manufacturer (and
which aren't always there).


IF thare there, they virtually ALWAYS have the same meaning - and
thee cheaper the tire the more critical it is. (in other words- HIGH
QUALITY tires don't have significant runout - OR significant
inballance. - so the significance of the match marks is less.
For example, we've covered that the marks are generally most useful for
brand-new wheels (where the original match mounting marks are still
visible), and we've covered why the light spot is still generally the valve
area (all else being equal, of course), even though there's an "additional"
valve there, simply because the plug of missing steel is generally heavier
than the rubber & brass valve despite the very many old intuitive wives
tales to the contrary.

I'm all about facts, where we've looked at the cites in the past to
conclude that, in the absence of match-mounting marks on the wheel, the
best course for a starting point mount at home is the red spot goes next to
the valve if you have a red spot, and if you have only a yellow spot, as I
recall, it goes opposite the valve (but I'd have to dig up the cites to
doublecheck on that as most tires I've mounted have both the red and yellow
so I only use the red mark as my starting point).

The yellow spot is the LIGHT spot of the tire - the red spot is the
point of MAXIMUM radial rounout - so you want to use the YELLOW spot
as your reference if there is no rim match indicator. Then it is up to
you to decide if you think the valve (metal or rubber) has more
inertial weight than the slug of metal missing from the rim, and
position it accordingly. Either way, the difference is pretty small -
but MIGHT make the difference between needing a 1/2 ounce weight and
not needing any at all.

In summary, if you can back up your belief system with a cite, I'll read
it, and if you want, I can dig up cites that back up my belief system since
my belief system is never imaginary - my belief system is _always_ based on
actual facts.

If facts show I need to _change_ my belief system, then I'll change it.
o But at the moment, the facts show the red dot goes next to the valve
(for stock steel wheels, and for most manufacturers' tires)

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042008_09.pdf

Note IN PARTICULAR the botton left of page 38 and top right of page
39:
- If a tire does feature color dots on the
sidewall, one or two dots may be used.
A red dot indicates the tire’s radial runout high point. A yellow dot
indicates the tire’s point of least weight,from a balance standpoint.

It also states:

For decades, it was common practice
in the aftermarket to mount a tire so its
red dot aligned with the wheel’s valve
stem, since the valve stem area was normally
assumed to be the wheel’s lowest
point of radial runout. Aligning the tire’s
high point to the wheel’s low point (theoretically)
reduces or eliminates the
chance of developing a radial force variation
(RFV) in the tire/wheel assembly.
RFV (again, an issue of runout, not imbalance)
can cause a vibration that
might be mistakenly diagnosed as an
imbalance problem.
Times change. With the advent of
styled custom wheels, the valve stem location
may no longer indicate the
wheel’s low radial runout spot. In other
words, it may no longer be viable to assume
that aligning a tire’s red dot to the
wheel’s valve stem will address any potential
RFV issues.
Consequently, a procedure that was
once easy has now become complicated.
The only way to accurately matchmount
a tire to a wheel is to actually
measure tire and wheel runout. The end
goal remains the same: to align the tire’s
high point to the wheel’s low point. The
wheel itself can be easily checked for radial
runout by mounting it to a hub and
slowly rotating it while monitoring the
rim edge with a rigidly mounted dial
gauge.

If you have facts that show otherwise, please cite them so we all benefit
from every post.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:01:19 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

IF thare there, they virtually ALWAYS have the same meaning - and
thee cheaper the tire the more critical it is. (in other words- HIGH
QUALITY tires don't have significant runout - OR significant
inballance. - so the significance of the match marks is less.

Hi Clare,

Thanks for that reference where I found some references literally _stole_
my pictures, which I take as a compliment! You'll recognize my tires, and
my tools in some of the references below, for example.

As I noted prior, I could have sworn that we used to mount the red dot next
to the valve stem for basic stock steel wheels, where I see you found one
of the old references which mentioned that practice of aligning the valve
stem to the red dot.

I found others which both confirm and deny that assumption, so I have some
homework to do to catch up on what I thought I had known so I hadn't
bothered to look it up recently until now.

For now, we'll assume the meaning of the two colored dots are described
here where "red" === "uniformity" and where "yellow" === weight.
https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting

Bear in mind each manufacturer can use different colors, or no dots as
explained here in this canonical Bridgestone summary:
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/f-y-i-meaning-yellow-red-dots-tires-1378801/

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042008_09.pdf
For decades, it was common practice
in the aftermarket to mount a tire so its
red dot aligned with the wheel’s valve
stem, since the valve stem area was normally
assumed to be the wheel’s lowest
point of radial runout.

Given that reference which you kindly unearthed, I'm not sure which way to
go forward, bearing in mind these aren't custom wheels; they're plain jane
stock steel cheap wheels (but where I also work on the BBS alloy wheels).

Consequently, a procedure that was
once easy has now become complicated.

Here are the articles I'll read to make the decision, all over again,
whether to align the stem to the red or yellow dot, and/or to set up a jig
for checking the high point and low point in radial runout, although, at
home, it would be only static.

This is the canonical publication which no longer seems to exist:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf

This seems to be a summary:
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/f-y-i-meaning-yellow-red-dots-tires-1378801/
Red dot === valve stem
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Mounting & custom wheel handling
https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042008_09.pdf
Old method, red dot === valve stem
New method, yellow dot === valve stem

o Bridgestone Tires Red & Yellow Dots
https://www.car-auto-repair.com/tires-balancebridgestone-tires-red-yellow-dots/
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Yokohama mounting procedures
https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting
Red dot === not possible at home
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Tire Rack match mounting
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=17&
This explains my comment about OE wheels & tires most needing the dots.

o Red & yellow dots
https://www.tires-easy.com/blog/what-are-the-red-and-yellow-dots-on-my-tires/
Yellow dot === heaviest spot
Red dot === lightest spot

o Continental "coloured dot" markings on car tyres
https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/554548/e3119edf9831c33103e5a771a0fe5717/download-coloured-dot-markings-data.pdf
This one says there's no consistent color for weight but
that there is a consistent color for unifornity (red).

o Match mounting
http://www.livjones.com/2014/04/match-mounting-red-dot-on-tires.html
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Match mounting
https://volvoreview.com/read/tire-mounting-red-yellow-dot
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

My belief system is based on facts, where I've noticed that most people
seem to have imaginary belief systems, but where, when it's complicated,
then any belief system that works, is fine.

Hence, for now, I'm gonna stick with the old method of red dot === valve
stem, unless there is no red dot, and then yellow dot === valve stem,
unless we can unearth a definitive reference that soundly refutes those
above.

Thanks for keeping an open mind, as you're the only other one on this ng,
that I know of, who has actually mounted & balanced a car tire themselves.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:13:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:01:19 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

IF thare there, they virtually ALWAYS have the same meaning - and
thee cheaper the tire the more critical it is. (in other words- HIGH
QUALITY tires don't have significant runout - OR significant
inballance. - so the significance of the match marks is less.

Hi Clare,

Thanks for that reference where I found some references literally _stole_
my pictures, which I take as a compliment! You'll recognize my tires, and
my tools in some of the references below, for example.

As I noted prior, I could have sworn that we used to mount the red dot next
to the valve stem for basic stock steel wheels, where I see you found one
of the old references which mentioned that practice of aligning the valve
stem to the red dot.

I found others which both confirm and deny that assumption, so I have some
homework to do to catch up on what I thought I had known so I hadn't
bothered to look it up recently until now.

For now, we'll assume the meaning of the two colored dots are described
here where "red" === "uniformity" and where "yellow" === weight.
https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting

Bear in mind each manufacturer can use different colors, or no dots as
explained here in this canonical Bridgestone summary:
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/f-y-i-meaning-yellow-red-dots-tires-1378801/

OK - find any credible reference showing the use of yellow and red by
ANY other manufacturer where the colors are switched. ANY. I'm
throwing you the challenge. Remember - it has to be a CREDIBLE
reference - from someone who is guaranteed to know more about the
subject than you - in other words not a hobbyist - but someone
intimately familliar with the company involved.

Are you up for the challenge Mr Holder?
Not saying it isn't out there, or that you won't find it - but I've
never seen it. Mabee someone used green and orange, or white and
yellow, or white and red. - happy hunting.

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042008_09.pdf
For decades, it was common practice
in the aftermarket to mount a tire so its
red dot aligned with the wheel’s valve
stem, since the valve stem area was normally
assumed to be the wheel’s lowest
point of radial runout.

Given that reference which you kindly unearthed, I'm not sure which way to
go forward, bearing in mind these aren't custom wheels; they're plain jane
stock steel cheap wheels (but where I also work on the BBS alloy wheels).

Consequently, a procedure that was
once easy has now become complicated.

Here are the articles I'll read to make the decision, all over again,
whether to align the stem to the red or yellow dot, and/or to set up a jig
for checking the high point and low point in radial runout, although, at
home, it would be only static.

This is the canonical publication which no longer seems to exist:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf

This seems to be a summary:
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/f-y-i-meaning-yellow-red-dots-tires-1378801/
Red dot === valve stem
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Mounting & custom wheel handling
https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042008_09.pdf
Old method, red dot === valve stem
New method, yellow dot === valve stem

o Bridgestone Tires Red & Yellow Dots
https://www.car-auto-repair.com/tires-balancebridgestone-tires-red-yellow-dots/
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Yokohama mounting procedures
https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting
Red dot === not possible at home
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Tire Rack match mounting
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=17&
This explains my comment about OE wheels & tires most needing the dots.

o Red & yellow dots
https://www.tires-easy.com/blog/what-are-the-red-and-yellow-dots-on-my-tires/
Yellow dot === heaviest spot
Red dot === lightest spot

o Continental "coloured dot" markings on car tyres
https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/554548/e3119edf9831c33103e5a771a0fe5717/download-coloured-dot-markings-data.pdf
This one says there's no consistent color for weight but
that there is a consistent color for unifornity (red).

o Match mounting
http://www.livjones.com/2014/04/match-mounting-red-dot-on-tires.html
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

o Match mounting
https://volvoreview.com/read/tire-mounting-red-yellow-dot
Red dot === valve stem (red dot supercedes yellow dot)
Yellow dot === valve stem

My belief system is based on facts, where I've noticed that most people
seem to have imaginary belief systems, but where, when it's complicated,
then any belief system that works, is fine.

Hence, for now, I'm gonna stick with the old method of red dot === valve
stem, unless there is no red dot, and then yellow dot === valve stem,
unless we can unearth a definitive reference that soundly refutes those
above.

Thanks for keeping an open mind, as you're the only other one on this ng,
that I know of, who has actually mounted & balanced a car tire themselves.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:22:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:39:00 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:39:45 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one place in Ontario to buy Nokian Hak tires - KAL
Tire.

Hi Clare,
I agree with your logic, since adults generally have no problem agreeing on
rational logic based on actual facts so if that's the only place you can
get your tires from that you want, then there's no way you're gonna save
even a penny trying to get them online.

But since I get them online, if I include the tire savings, see my rough
calculation below which comes out to over $1,000 saved in the past 5 years
assuming a nominal $100 tire.

I don't drive on $100 tires. Last tire I bought was $223.00 plus
disposal fee and HST.
The tires I put on my daughter's car were about $180 each - for 16
inch tires.

Just checked - that was including tax, install and ballance. Small
tires (205 55 16) for Hyundai Elantra GT. - so $142 plus install,
disposal fee, and taxes. I guess that's about $106 US for the bare
tire.
The 235 70 16 tires on the Ranger and 225 70 17 on the Sorento cost
significantly more. Almost double.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:40:32 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:22:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:39:00 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:39:45 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one place in Ontario to buy Nokian Hak tires - KAL
Tire.

Hi Clare,
I agree with your logic, since adults generally have no problem agreeing on
rational logic based on actual facts so if that's the only place you can
get your tires from that you want, then there's no way you're gonna save
even a penny trying to get them online.

But since I get them online, if I include the tire savings, see my rough
calculation below which comes out to over $1,000 saved in the past 5 years
assuming a nominal $100 tire.

I don't drive on $100 tires. Last tire I bought was $223.00 plus
disposal fee and HST.
The tires I put on my daughter's car were about $180 each - for 16
inch tires.

Just checked - that was including tax, install and ballance. Small
tires (205 55 16) for Hyundai Elantra GT. - so $142 plus install,
disposal fee, and taxes. I guess that's about $106 US for the bare
tire.
The 235 70 16 tires on the Ranger and 225 70 17 on the Sorento cost
significantly more. Almost double.
The Hyundai tire is the same as the base tire on a 325i Bimmer - so
I guess in Cali a $100 tire on a low end bimmer might make sense. On a
528i a 245 45 18 is going to be close to 3 times that price. (about
$405 Canadian and up plus tax and install)
Don't remember what Bimmer Arlen drives.

On 4/30/19 2:22 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Here it's 13% - and if the company does buisiness in Ontario they
have to charge that tax. 14.75% in Quebec. Only BC, Alberta, Sask and
the territories are lower - and shipping from any of them kills any
tax advantage unless I buy them while there on holliday.


A true democrat would be happy to pay more tax knowing the proceeds go to support social programs for the lazy.

On 4/29/19 11:39 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Since the equipment is steel, and since I have plenty of room, I have my
mounter mounted to the sidewalk where I can remove it if I want to and box
it up such that it takes up no more room than a common car camping tent.

The bead breaker is just sitting there, outside, along with the tire ramps
and jack stands, all of which are steel so leaving them outside (in
California, where it never snows and only rains during the monsoon season),
works out just fine so storeage is zero problem for me.


What if your municipality has a blight ordinance and you get a $500 fine for having unsightly junk stored in your yard?

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 4:05:17 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:40:32 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 02:22:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 03:39:00 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:39:45 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one place in Ontario to buy Nokian Hak tires - KAL
Tire.

Hi Clare,
I agree with your logic, since adults generally have no problem agreeing on
rational logic based on actual facts so if that's the only place you can
get your tires from that you want, then there's no way you're gonna save
even a penny trying to get them online.

But since I get them online, if I include the tire savings, see my rough
calculation below which comes out to over $1,000 saved in the past 5 years
assuming a nominal $100 tire.

I don't drive on $100 tires. Last tire I bought was $223.00 plus
disposal fee and HST.
The tires I put on my daughter's car were about $180 each - for 16
inch tires.

Just checked - that was including tax, install and ballance. Small
tires (205 55 16) for Hyundai Elantra GT. - so $142 plus install,
disposal fee, and taxes. I guess that's about $106 US for the bare
tire.
The 235 70 16 tires on the Ranger and 225 70 17 on the Sorento cost
significantly more. Almost double.
The Hyundai tire is the same as the base tire on a 325i Bimmer - so
I guess in Cali a $100 tire on a low end bimmer might make sense. On a
528i a 245 45 18 is going to be close to 3 times that price. (about
$405 Canadian and up plus tax and install)
Don't remember what Bimmer Arlen drives.

There is also the issue of how long a tire lasts. IDK if there is a
correlation between cost and life, but I can tell you that the last
Michelins went 100K miles, which surprised me. So, if you paid half
that and they went half or less than that, would that tire be a good
deal? I always look at reviews and ratings.

In article , says...

A true democrat would be happy to pay more tax knowing the proceeds go to support social programs for the lazy.





A true democrat does not have a job that pays eonugh to be taxed if they
have a job at all. They are on the social program for the lazy.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 00:56:22 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

OK - find any credible reference showing the use of yellow and red by
ANY other manufacturer where the colors are switched. ANY. I'm
throwing you the challenge. Remember - it has to be a CREDIBLE
reference - from someone who is guaranteed to know more about the
subject than you - in other words not a hobbyist - but someone
intimately familliar with the company involved.

Hi Clare,

We don't disagree.

o You're basing your belief system on your experience & knowledge
o I'm basing my belief system on my experience & current references

You have far more experience & knowledge than I do, Clare.
o My experience is the same as yours, which is red=uniformity, yellow=weight

I'm all about facts, where facts are funny just as adults are funny, in
that adults can easily agree on facts if they're presented logically.

Presenting facts logically, would you agree that both you and I have
_never_ seen any other colors than red === unifority, and yellow ===
weight, right?

OK. So we both agree that we have never seen it done any other way, right?

All I'm saying is that _some_ references "claim" that those aren't the only
colors and that those colors "may" mean whatever they mean to the specific
manufacturer.

For example, I _already_ provided two cites for those claims, Cla
o So you have everything that I have already.

You don't have to _believe_ those cites
o But you do have to belief that they exist (which is all I'm saying).

Unfortunately, the canonical Bridgestone PDF is nowhere to be found...
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf
but we can assume this guy accurately copied it since people complained
that he copied it, where Bridgestone is said to say, very clearly:
"Does Every Tire Manufacturer Use The Same Marks?
Unfortunately, no. Some manufacturers do not mark their tires at all,
and *some use _different_ colors*.
https://forums.redflagdeals.com/f-y-i-meaning-yellow-red-dots-tires-1378801/

While standards can be different for USA tires, this Contenental Technical
Bulletin for the UK & Ireland says Continental sometimes uses "white" dots
and sometimes "yellow" dots, and even "blue" dots for the weight dot.
"Although there is a consistent red coloured dot identifying the tyres
'radial force variations first harmonic maximum',
*there is _no standard colour_ for the 'light static balance point'*
*Continental Tyres indicate [light static balance point] with a white dot*
*but it may be yellow or blue*"
https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/554548/e3119edf9831c33103e5a771a0fe5717/download-coloured-dot-markings-data.pdf

The real question of import is where to put the tire on an old steel stock
wheel versus an old custom alloy wheel when mounting at home (and where the
original match mounting marks are likely obliterated), where the cite you
brought up says "it's confusing".

Are you up for the challenge Mr Holder?
Not saying it isn't out there, or that you won't find it - but I've
never seen it. Mabee someone used green and orange, or white and
yellow, or white and red. - happy hunting.

Hi Clare,

We don't disagree.
o And I already previously gave you the cites in the post you responded to.

Clearly both Continental & Bridgestone said the colors can differ.
o Just as clearly, both you and I have never seen them differ.

Both those are facts, Clare.
o You simply have to sort them out for yourself, as did I.

It's fine for you to state you don't believe the references
o Or if you state the references only apply to Europe & not to the USA

But you can't claim that my statements aren't based on those references.

We are both adults Clare, where I'm only stating what I've read in the
cites, which I proved above, which I proved _before_ you claimed that I
didn't prove that claim.

Whether or not the references are correct is a completely different issue,
Clare, where I, like you, have _never_ seen the red dot not mean uniformity
and the yellow dot not mean weight.

Rest assured, nobody has _ever_ seen me state material facts wrong on
Usenet, Clare, and I've posted for many (many) years.(See note 1).

That's because I don't say things are facts if they're not based on facts.

Hence, for every material fact you hear me write on Usenet
o You can rest assured I can find a cite backing up that fact.

Do you know anyone with as incredible a record on facts as I have Clare?
o HINT: My belief systems are based on facts that I can cite.

The real question of import is where to put the tire on an old steel stock
wheel versus an old custom alloy wheel when mounting at home (and where the
original match mounting marks are likely obliterated), where the cite you
brought up says "it's confusing".

In summary Clare, "some" references (particularly for European markets)
clearly claim that the colors can be different; but I agree with you that
both you and I have _never_ seen the dots in the USA mean anything but
o red === uniformity
o yellow === weight

--
(1) I'm human, so, I must have once or twice in many thousands of posts,
misstated a material fact, especially as Usenet is casual, but nobody can
find any material fact I've stated that was wrong (trust me, they've
tried), which you have to admit is pretty incredible for factual
credibility on Usenet.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 04:37:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Woooah there Pilgrim. You have a vivid imagination. I never said any
of that, quite the opposite. I said that I'm not going to mount tires
at home myself, for many reasons, when I can get them mounted and dynamically
balanced at Costco for $15 a tire. Step three is really dumb,
screwing around mounting them at home, then pay $5 at Costco to get them
balanced, when you can get them mounted and balanced for $15, no fuss,
no muss.

Hi Trader,
Your math is sound, where I agree with your logic.
o Adults have no problem agreeing on facts & basic logical deductions.

In addition, I want to say that I very much appreciate that you mentioned
that Costco now does non-Costco tires, which they didn't used to do (which
I confirmed at Costco afer I read your original post).

Hence, Usenet worked as a medicum for us to bounce ideas back & forth
o Where I appreciate that you brought value to the potluck picnic

I don't disagree that the $15 Costco mounting price makes wanting your own
tools less incentive by price alone, as, another advantage of the $15
Costco mounting is the free balance & rotation.

It's a lot less fun to go to Costo than to do it yourself
o But at those great prices, it's a lot harder on the home math.

Given the free rotation & balance, the $15 price isn't bad, I agree, and,
in fact, if I had known that five or so years ago when I calculated the
payback costs of the tire-changing tools, I might have given up on the
tire-changing tools, just like I have given up on having my own paint booth
and lift and alignment tools.

The main problem with Costco are the lines, but, the price is great.
o Costco might not put in brass tire valves - but you do get green air!

In summary, having Costco do the work is a lot less fun
o But it's a viable option for sure given they do non-Costco tires.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:57:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 04:37:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Woooah there Pilgrim. You have a vivid imagination. I never said any
of that, quite the opposite. I said that I'm not going to mount tires
at home myself, for many reasons, when I can get them mounted and dynamically
balanced at Costco for $15 a tire. Step three is really dumb,
screwing around mounting them at home, then pay $5 at Costco to get them
balanced, when you can get them mounted and balanced for $15, no fuss,
no muss.

Hi Trader,
Your math is sound, where I agree with your logic.
o Adults have no problem agreeing on facts & basic logical deductions.

In addition, I want to say that I very much appreciate that you mentioned
that Costco now does non-Costco tires, which they didn't used to do (which
I confirmed at Costco afer I read your original post).

Hence, Usenet worked as a medicum for us to bounce ideas back & forth
o Where I appreciate that you brought value to the potluck picnic

I don't disagree that the $15 Costco mounting price makes wanting your own
tools less incentive by price alone, as, another advantage of the $15
Costco mounting is the free balance & rotation.

It's a lot less fun to go to Costo than to do it yourself
o But at those great prices, it's a lot harder on the home math.

Given the free rotation & balance, the $15 price isn't bad, I agree, and,
in fact, if I had known that five or so years ago when I calculated the
payback costs of the tire-changing tools, I might have given up on the
tire-changing tools, just like I have given up on having my own paint booth
and lift and alignment tools.

The main problem with Costco are the lines, but, the price is great.
o Costco might not put in brass tire valves - but you do get green air!

In summary, having Costco do the work is a lot less fun
o But it's a viable option for sure given they do non-Costco tires.
The thing everybody is forgetting is REAL TIRE SHOPS and REAL AUTO
REPAIR SHOPS mount and balance tires for the same price - or very
close - and you CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT. If your time isn't worth
anything, and aggravation has no value, I guess standing in line at
Costco is a good option.

When I buy new tires I drop my rims off at the tire shop where I
bought the tires and pick them up a few hours later (ofter going to
Costco for a $1.50 sausage and drink and a $2 Ice Cream?).
Usually I buy my tires at seasonal change-over. When I put the snows
on I say "those summer tires are not going back on" - and to be sure I
buy the new summer tires and have them installed as soon as I get the
snows on. The summers then go up into the attic of the shed and I'm
all set for next year. Doesn't matter if the tire shop takes an hour
or a week to source, mount and balance the new tires. By the time I
put them back on next spring the sting of the cost of the new tires is
forgotten, and I'm a happy camper!!

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:01:00 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:



And the "specs" on a car battery don't tell you the important stuff -
like how long it will last, or when it will fail at -30. Knowing what
factory it was made in (only a few companies actually BUILD batteries
- regardless how many brand names there are) and which companies are
actually building quality batteries at that point in time (one company
makes the best this year - and it's the worst next year, for example)
is more important than what's printed on the label.
Canadian Tire used to have their AGM batteries made by Johnson
Controls, and they switched to Brad Penn?

East Penn, actually



. Same spec. Same model.
Different colored plastic. One was a POS and the other was and still
is one of the best batteries you can buy - at any price.

In Clare Snyder writes:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:01:00 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
Canadian Tire used to have their AGM batteries made by Johnson
Controls, and they switched to Brad Penn?

East Penn, actually

. Same spec. Same model.
Different colored plastic. One was a POS and the other was and still
is one of the best batteries you can buy - at any price.

So if I route through Canada on my next trip,
what should I look for?


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Arlen G. Holder wrote:

Thanks for keeping an open mind, as you're the only other one on this ng,
that I know of, who has actually mounted & balanced a car tire themselves.

"Themselves".
Does that mean only those who've done it in their driveway at home, or
does it also include the shop I've worked at for the last 12 years?

Either way, we normally use the yellow dot, not just because it's
"correct" in our little version of reality, but because everyone expects
it. Even if we miss by an inch or two, or the dot has worn off over time
(used tire), or if we get a tire brand that doesn't even use dots, the
balancer makes it all happy again. It's really not that critical.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:33:53 -0700, Sanity Clause wrote:

"Themselves".
Does that mean only those who've done it in their driveway at home, or
does it also include the shop I've worked at for the last 12 years?

Hi Sanity Clause,
It means different things depending on the question that the person is
answering.

If the question is a technical question about the proper final result in
mounting tires, such as where the colored dots go with respect to the valve
stem (or match mounting marks, which are generally obliterated in older
wheels), then it's a question that the pros can answer.

But if it's a question about using a Harbor Freight ****ty tool, it's
likely NOT a question anyone can answer who hasn't used the Harbor Freight
****ty tools.

I, for one, have used the Harbor Freight ****ty tools, but most people who
are making up excuses for NOT doing tires at home, have NEVER done tires
anywhere, but even if they have, they've never done tires at home using the
HF ****ty tools.

Having a pro try to answer those types of questions is sort of like having
a farmer in California try to answer why they urinate on their crops in
India.

Two different use models, where the farmer in California has all the latest
mechanization and irrigation and tractor-fed fertilization, while the
farmer in India ****es and poops on his crops to get them to grow.

Worse, most of the people responding, except maybe you, me, and Clare, have
_never_ in their entire lives mounted a tire at home using the ****ty
equipment that we're discussing here - where maybe even you and Clare have
never done that.

Remembering that I'm allergic to bull****, all those people making up those
outlandish excuses for why they can't do it are just like my grandkids
making up outlandish excuses for why they didn't do their homework.

The honest answer is that they don't like changing tires at home.
o All the rest is pure bull****, IMHO, if they've never done it.

Either way, we normally use the yellow dot, not just because it's
"correct" in our little version of reality, but because everyone expects
it.

I thank you for bringing up the fact that the yellow dot "can" be used,
where _most_ of the references Clare and I have been discussing say to use
it only if the red dot doesn't exist.

Sometimes facts are conflicting, where they seem to be conflicting here,
which is ok, as long as we're all aware that they conflict.

The facts come first, and then we deduce rational logic from those facts:
o Red is almost always the uniformity indicator
o Yellow is almost always the weight indicator
o Most cites (but not all say the red dot takes precedence over yellow
o Most cites (but not all) say to mount the valve stem to the dots in the
absence of match-mounting marks (which is almost always on older rims).

There's a confusing issue of weight of steel versus alloy, where it seems
that the presumed heavy spot moves 180 degrees between steel and alloy
because of the weight difference between the hole drilled for the valve,
and the valve itself.

Even if we miss by an inch or two, or the dot has worn off over time
(used tire), or if we get a tire brand that doesn't even use dots, the
balancer makes it all happy again. It's really not that critical.

It's not _that_ simple, but it's close to that simple.
o The whole point is to minimize added weight by good initial placement

In summary, I do appreciate that you have experience, because other than
Clare, the posters who made up excuses have never changed a tire at home,
so their excuses were based on nothing material.

I've changed 30 tires at home, where I can say a few things:
1. I mount the red dot to the valve stem on both steel & alloy
(but maybe I should re-think that based on what you & Clare say).

2. I have never failed to mount a tire, from puny 15 inch tires to larger
17 inch tires, where the SUV tires are the hardest due to the sidewalls, I
think, which are designed for heavier loads.

3. I static balance, which I admit is basic, but which seems to work in
that I don't get perceptible vibration, but I like Trader's information
that Costco now dynamically balances tires for only five bucks, which is a
great deal.

So, moving forward, my plan is:
A. Buy tires at great prices online & have them shipped for free, to me.
B. Mount/Balance/Rotate/Repair them at home using HF ****ty equipment.
C. If I feel vibration, then pay Costco $5 per tire to dynamically balance.

One question I'd like to ask you is whether you feel that an
_imperceptible_ vibration can cause damage?

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:11:36 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

The thing everybody is forgetting is REAL TIRE SHOPS and REAL AUTO
REPAIR SHOPS mount and balance tires for the same price - or very
close - and you CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT. If your time isn't worth
anything, and aggravation has no value, I guess standing in line at
Costco is a good option.

Hi Clare,
I don't think there are _any_ shops that I've seen in the Silicon Valley
(other than Costco) which will do lifetime balance & rotation for $15 per
tire.

Most charge around $20 for a _one-time_ balance & rotation per tire.

And, _all_ the shops make you wait forever, in my experience, appointment
or no appointment.

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.



When I buy new tires I drop my rims off at the tire shop where I
bought the tires and pick them up a few hours later (ofter going to
Costco for a $1.50 sausage and drink and a $2 Ice Cream?).

The $1.50 Costco hotdog and soda deal is fantastic (IMHO), as is the pizza,
where I would agree with you that dropping off the rims and then picking
them up later is the better deal for sure on time management.

As always, adults have little problem agreeing on rational logic.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:01:00 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

The price is usually at least based on something

We disagree philosophically, where I completely understand your assumption
that if something is more expensive, it _must_ be better.

For me, if something is more expensive, it's just more expensive.
o The expense is an indication of the demand and nothing else.

Demand may or may not track with quality.

Of course, if everyone were _intelligent_, the demand might better match
quality, but the mere fact that advertising works means that the demand is
influenced by bull**** marketing, which has _nothing_ to do with quality.

In short, my philosophy is based on fact since I'm allergic to bull****.
o You get what you get (which is whatever you can tell about what you get).
o You pay what other people pay (since the overall demand sets the price).

On 5/1/19 3:07 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Most charge around $20 for a_one-time_ balance & rotation per tire.

And,_all_ the shops make you wait forever, in my experience, appointment
or no appointment.

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.


My HOA won't let me bolt tire changing/balancing equipment to the sidewalk . They would prolly frown on a hydraulic lift mounted in my driveway too.Â* And the air compressor and impact wrenches might bother the neighbors as well.Â* I guess I'll just have my
friendly neighborhood Ford dealer do my car maintenance.


But I am curious, how does your wife get free coffee, ice cream, and donuts?Â* WIC card?

On 5/1/19 3:07 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
We disagree philosophically, where I completely understand your assumption
that if something is more expensive, it_must_ be better.

For me, if something is more expensive, it's just more expensive.
o The expense is an indication of the demand and nothing else.

Yah, there's no difference in quality between a Pooplan chainsaw at McLowes Depot and a Stihl Professional.

/sarcasm

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 3:07:22 AM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:11:36 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

The thing everybody is forgetting is REAL TIRE SHOPS and REAL AUTO
REPAIR SHOPS mount and balance tires for the same price - or very
close - and you CAN GET AN APPOINTMENT. If your time isn't worth
anything, and aggravation has no value, I guess standing in line at
Costco is a good option.

Hi Clare,
I don't think there are _any_ shops that I've seen in the Silicon Valley
(other than Costco) which will do lifetime balance & rotation for $15 per
tire.

Most charge around $20 for a _one-time_ balance & rotation per tire.

And, _all_ the shops make you wait forever, in my experience, appointment
or no appointment.

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.



When I buy new tires I drop my rims off at the tire shop where I
bought the tires and pick them up a few hours later (ofter going to
Costco for a $1.50 sausage and drink and a $2 Ice Cream?).

The $1.50 Costco hotdog and soda deal is fantastic (IMHO), as is the pizza,
where I would agree with you that dropping off the rims and then picking
them up later is the better deal for sure on time management.

As always, adults have little problem agreeing on rational logic.

Yeah, save half an hour, then go home and have to spend that much time
anyway jacking up the car and putting the wheels on. Plus, most people
don't have another set of wheels to begin with and while the tires are
being mounted, you can be shopping at Costco, having your pizza, eating
their free food samples, etc.

On 4/29/2019 1:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.

Avoid static balancing at all cost.

On 5/1/2019 2:38 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:




Worse, most of the people responding, except maybe you, me, and Clare, have
_never_ in their entire lives mounted a tire at home using the ****ty
equipment that we're discussing here - where maybe even you and Clare have
never done that.

Remembering that I'm allergic to bull****, all those people making up those
outlandish excuses for why they can't do it are just like my grandkids
making up outlandish excuses for why they didn't do their homework.

The honest answer is that they don't like changing tires at home.
o All the rest is pure bull****, IMHO, if they've never done it.

No BS from me. I think for most people it is silly to DIY when the
payback is measured in decades. I have no interest in doing it.

I'm not sure if you have an air of superiority or are just arrogant.
Its the way you come across though.

On 5/1/2019 3:07 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:


That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.



If your wife paid for them they are not free. I thought you only dealt
with facts.

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/1/2019 2:38 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:




Worse, most of the people responding, except maybe you, me, and Clare, have
_never_ in their entire lives mounted a tire at home using the ****ty
equipment that we're discussing here - where maybe even you and Clare have
never done that.

Remembering that I'm allergic to bull****, all those people making up those
outlandish excuses for why they can't do it are just like my grandkids
making up outlandish excuses for why they didn't do their homework.

The honest answer is that they don't like changing tires at home.
o All the rest is pure bull****, IMHO, if they've never done it.

No BS from me. I think for most people it is silly to DIY when the
payback is measured in decades. I have no interest in doing it.

I'm not sure if you have an air of superiority or are just arrogant.
Its the way you come across though.

I'd add that I have mounted tires, many decades ago, in an auto garage.
We used a real tire mounting machine, bolted to the floor, that used
compressed air and a piston to break the bead. And a tool worked
around by hand to get the bead off the tire, and a device to help
squeeze tires that would not inflate after they were mounted. With
that setup, it wasn't bad. But I would not want to be doing it with
primitive tools from HF, not when I can get one mounted and balanced
for $15. Compare that to doing a brake job, where you typically don't
need special eqpt or eqpt that gets bolted to the floor. Brake job
at the stealership or a shop could be $500 to $1000 and you can do it
for $60. Now there the value proposition makes it logical to DIY.

In article , says...

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.



If your wife paid for them they are not free. I thought you only dealt
with facts.



Where I have bought tires, I get about all of that but the food. Free
rotation, balance, and repairs to the tire. Also free flat fixing for
anyone in the family if they give them my telephone number. I can get
an appointment, or just drop in.

Many years ago I worked for Sears changing tires and changing oil and
plugs. They had an air operated changer that broke the beads and even
ran the thing that lifted the tire off and on the rim. Air jacks or
lifts and impact wrenches to take the rims off the cars. I would not
want to fight a tire with the HF tools no more than I change tires now.

"sms" wrote in message
...
On 4/29/2019 1:48 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
UPDATE:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.

Avoid static balancing at all cost.

Thats overstate, its better than nothing.

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 1:34:21 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

That's one of the reasons doing it at home is so convenient.
o Lifetime balance & rotation, for free in the convenience of your own home
o No appointment
o No wait
o Free coffee, ice cream, and donuts (if the wife picked them up that is)
etc.



If your wife paid for them they are not free. I thought you only dealt
with facts.



Where I have bought tires, I get about all of that but the food. Free
rotation, balance, and repairs to the tire. Also free flat fixing for
anyone in the family if they give them my telephone number. I can get
an appointment, or just drop in.

Many years ago I worked for Sears changing tires and changing oil and
plugs. They had an air operated changer that broke the beads and even
ran the thing that lifted the tire off and on the rim. Air jacks or
lifts and impact wrenches to take the rims off the cars. I would not
want to fight a tire with the HF tools no more than I change tires now.

+1

I said similar in another post.

On Thu, 2 May 2019 03:53:46 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Today I mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years, where
each time I do this easy job, I learn new tricks to make it even easier.

Avoid static balancing at all cost.

That¢s overstate, its better than nothing.

LOL You just HAVE to auto-contradict. It's better for you than saying
nothing at all, you abnormal 85-year-old senile cretin!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: