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#1
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Tankless natural gas water heater
I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating.
I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these. My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump |
#2
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Tankless natural gas water heater
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#3
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 3:53:20 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating. I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these. My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a tank unit. Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a 25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. |
#4
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a tank unit. Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a 25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. |
#5
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a tank unit. Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a 25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. |
#6
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater. This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of hot water the recovery is so fast! |
#7
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-4, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater. This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of hot water the recovery is so fast! Yep. I see tankless fitting special applications, like where you really need unlimited hot water in large quantity, frequently. Like maybe a big shore rental property, where 8 people could be coming back from the beach at the same time. But for a typical home, there is little advantage and a lot of downside. The only advantage I'd see is eliminating standy losses. But, as I've said before, the whole gas bill here in summer is ~$17, which includes hot water and some gas grilling outside. That hot water includes usage and standby loses at the tank. So, how big could the standby losses be? Clearly they aren't significant and that's with a basic tank, with pilot. The next step up would be a higher efficiency tank type that would reduce standby losses more. So, I've never seen the math. I'm feeling a little bad for the OP. No one can give him advice on which unit to buy, problem is I don't recall seeing anyone on here who has one. He's in a little different situation, he's already got one so no issues with running gas lines sufficient to support it, etc, all the usual stuff. But from what I've seen, the tankless unit itself costs ~$700 more than a tank type. I don't see the math adding up. |
#8
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Tankless natural gas water heater
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#9
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On 6/14/18 5:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a tank unit. Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a 25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. if you can't go a couple of days without a shower, you should see a doctor about that |
#10
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
[snip] Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too. Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." Robert A. Heinlein. Contributed by Larry Reyka. |
#11
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:58:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a tank unit. Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a 25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster |
#12
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT), ItsJoanNotJoann
wrote: On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater. This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of hot water the recovery is so fast! So?? Tank or tankless?? |
#13
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply. I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power supply. |
#14
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 11:07:44 AM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.. Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply. I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power supply. Two units in one house must do wonders for the payback equation. |
#15
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 10:19:50 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT), ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote: I opted for another regular hot water heater last year. It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me. I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater. This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of hot water the recovery is so fast! So?? Tank or tankless?? I answered that question in the very thread you asked 'Tank or tankless??' |
#16
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On 6/14/18 1:38 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote: [snip] Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too. Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days. just curious, when the power goes out, short of a hurricane, how long does that last and if it lasts days, does the ability to pump water still exist? |
#17
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On 6/15/2018 9:10 PM, ZZyXX wrote:
On 6/14/18 1:38 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote: On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote: [snip] Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably.Â* You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary.Â* And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too. Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days. just curious, when the power goes out, short of a hurricane, how long does that last and if it lasts days, does the ability to pump water still exist? With town wter it is pumped as they have backup power. My tank would last a couple of days. |
#18
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:07:32 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply. I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power supply. That;s ok when they work - - - - |
#19
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Tankless natural gas water heater
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:15:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:07:32 -0700, Oren wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water. Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply. I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power supply. That;s ok when they work - - - - Turbine igniters work when demand is called. Tankless is easy to DIY repair. I've said here many times I like tankless, also said before I would never retrofit into a current home. New construction is the better choice. PEX, a manifold with brass 3/4" turn ball valves. Oh. and add in the utility company change to a larger gas meter. OP never mentioned sizing the gas meter to the unit demand. |
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