Tankless natural gas water heater
 

I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating.
I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these.
My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating.
I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these.
My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump


I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 3:53:20 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating.
I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these.
My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump


I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.


Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled
that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water
heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but
Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of
water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty
is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of
service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use
the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a
25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:


I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.


Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled
that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water
heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but
Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of
water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty
is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of
service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use
the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a
25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:


I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.


Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled
that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water
heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but
Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of
water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty
is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of
service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use
the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a
25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.


I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater.
This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of
hot water the recovery is so fast!

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-4, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.


I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater.
This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of
hot water the recovery is so fast!

Yep. I see tankless fitting special applications, like where you really
need unlimited hot water in large quantity, frequently. Like maybe a
big shore rental property, where 8 people could be coming back from
the beach at the same time. But for a typical home, there is little
advantage and a lot of downside. The only advantage I'd see is eliminating
standy losses. But, as I've said before, the whole gas bill here in
summer is ~$17, which includes hot water and some gas grilling outside.
That hot water includes usage and standby loses at the tank. So, how
big could the standby losses be? Clearly they aren't significant and
that's with a basic tank, with pilot. The next step up would be a higher
efficiency tank type that would reduce standby losses more. So, I've
never seen the math.

I'm feeling a little bad for the OP. No one can give him advice on
which unit to buy, problem is I don't recall seeing anyone on here
who has one. He's in a little different situation, he's already got
one so no issues with running gas lines sufficient to support it,
etc, all the usual stuff. But from what I've seen, the tankless unit
itself costs ~$700 more than a tank type. I don't see the math
adding up.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I have a Navian tankless water heater that I have had for about 8 years. I have had nothing but problems. I want to change it out to either a Rinnai or a Rheem water heater. I need about a 9.5 gpm or greater at 199,000BTU rating.
I already have the 3/4" gas line and the 3/4" water line and the condensate drain set up plus the 3" PVC vent lines so there is no reason to discuss these.
My question is which one is better. I would like one with a recirculating pump

Did you retrofit this tankless into your home OR was it new
construction? As to the brands of choice, I've never heard of Navian.

Your problems might be the planning, design and execution.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On 6/14/18 5:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:


I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.


Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled
that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water
heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but
Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of
water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty
is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of
service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use
the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a
25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

if you can't go a couple of days without a shower, you should see a
doctor about that

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too.
Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins"
are invented nonsense." Robert A. Heinlein. Contributed by Larry Reyka.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:58:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:02:40 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

I would suspect either one will be better than you had, as the
technology has matured somewhat - but either one is still liable to be
more trouble than "I" would put up with. Cut your losses and install a
tank unit.

Several weeks ago on 'Ask This Old House' Richard Trethewy (I hope I spelled
that correctly) went to a man's house that had one of these tankless water
heaters that was giving him problems. Boy, what a set up he had, but
Richard reminded the audience you WILL have trouble with these type of
water heaters just like you will with a regular tank system. The warranty
is about the same but the expense is terrible considering the length of
service is no better. True, you don't have a standing tank and only use
the water when needed but for that amount of money and set up I'd expect a
25 year guarantee. I guess that's one of the reason I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.

It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT), ItsJoanNotJoann
wrote:

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.


I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater.
This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of
hot water the recovery is so fast!
So??
Tank or tankless??

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units
mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply.
I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called
for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power
supply.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 11:07:44 AM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water..

Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units
mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply.
I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called
for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power
supply.


Two units in one house must do wonders for the payback equation.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 10:19:50 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT), ItsJoanNotJoann
wrote:

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 7:02:40 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/13/2018 11:19 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

I opted for another
regular hot water heater last year.


It is not an option on our new house in spite of other energy saving
options. Gas with regular tank. OK by me.


I was raised in a house with gas heat, kitchen range, and water heater.
This house is also gas powered and I love that IF I should run out of
hot water the recovery is so fast!
So??
Tank or tankless??


I answered that question in the very thread you asked 'Tank or tankless??'

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On 6/14/18 1:38 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too.
Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days.

just curious, when the power goes out, short of a hurricane, how long
does that last and if it lasts days, does the ability to pump water
still exist?

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On 6/15/2018 9:10 PM, ZZyXX wrote:
On 6/14/18 1:38 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 06/14/2018 07:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably.Â* You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary.Â* And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

That (having hot water during a power outage) is important for me too.
Also, power outages often happen on the coldest days.

just curious, when the power goes out, short of a hurricane, how long
does that last and if it lasts days, does the ability to pump water
still exist?

With town wter it is pumped as they have backup power. My tank would
last a couple of days.

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:07:32 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units
mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply.
I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called
for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power
supply.
That;s ok when they work - - - -

Tankless natural gas water heater
 

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:15:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:07:32 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 17:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

Big factor for me is with a tank you have hot water during power outages
that lasts at least a day, if you use it reasonably. You could even
take a couple of very quick showers if necessary. And with natural gas
and a basic tank type with a pilot light, you have unlimited hot water.

Years ago, I installed a Bosch tankless natural gas water heater that had its own generator for producing the electrical power for the controls and igniter. It had a little paddle wheel that spun a small generator inside a closed housing that was part of the cold water side of the heater. As soon as the water started flowing, the burner came on and there was continuous hot water. If I had the money, I'd look for a tankless water heater like that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

I've seen these units installed, three (3) zones in one home, 2 units
mounted on outside walls, (1) in the garage with just the gas supply.
I believe it is called (?) an 'inline turbine'. When water is called
for, the turbine spins and makes ignition. No need for a AC power
supply.

That;s ok when they work - - - -

Turbine igniters work when demand is called. Tankless is easy to DIY
repair.

I've said here many times I like tankless, also said before I would
never retrofit into a current home. New construction is the better
choice. PEX, a manifold with brass 3/4" turn ball valves. Oh. and add
in the utility company change to a larger gas meter.

OP never mentioned sizing the gas meter to the unit demand.