I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the NJ and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both new and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

Air-exchange heat pumps stall out at about 35F outside air temperature, so
electric resistance
heating kicks-in. If you have a ground-exchange heat pump, it works against
the ground
temperature (59F average across the US) and does not have this problem. It
thus uses a lot
less electricity (heating or cooling) but that has to be balanced against
the much greater installation
cost (buried heat exchange tubing). Last time I investigated, the
incremental cost of installing the
ground-exchange in a residential situation achieved payback in about 20
years. This is usually
considered a poor investment. With rising energy prices, the payback period
may have changed
since then.

-- Tom




"Conase" wrote in message
...
I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the
NJ and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both
new and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD
climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long
stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

"TOM" wrote

Air-exchange heat pumps stall out at about 35F outside air temperature, so
electric resistance
heating kicks-in.

Stalls out?

I think you should either explain that statement or not make it at all if
you do not know what you are talking about.



If you have a ground-exchange heat pump, it works against
the ground
temperature (59F average across the US) and does not have this problem. It
thus uses a lot
less electricity (heating or cooling) but that has to be balanced against
the much greater installation
cost (buried heat exchange tubing). Last time I investigated, the
incremental cost of installing the
ground-exchange in a residential situation achieved payback in about 20
years. This is usually
considered a poor investment. With rising energy prices, the payback
period
may have changed
since then.

Sounds like you DO know what you are talking about when it comes to
GSHPs....

Mine is a 16 seer and keeps the house 69 degs, with the t/stat set to 72
degs.

17 deg outside temp,Nebraska weather.

Tom


"Conase" wrote in message
...
I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the
NJ and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both
new and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD
climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long
stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

Conase wrote:
I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all
the NJ and NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of
the houses both new and old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD
climates. The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark
for long stretches. In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for
long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

Do any of these homes also have conventional furnaces (i.e. heat pump +
gas)? In your climate I would think that would be a good alternative to
a straight heat pump.

From: (Conase)


I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the NJ
and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both new
and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long
stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

Builders install whatever system is cheapest for them to provide. They do not
care one ioda what the running costs are, since they won't be paying them.

I know 2 families who bought into new homes in the Deleware Water Gap area, and
both incurred astronomical electric bills.

In the Northeast, your most cost efficient form of home heating is still an oil
burner.

"TOM" wrote in message
...
Air-exchange heat pumps stall out at about 35F outside air temperature, so
electric resistance
heating kicks-in.

That statement might have been correct 15-20 years ago. Today, it just
isn't the case.


If you have a ground-exchange heat pump, it works against
the ground
temperature (59F average across the US) and does not have this problem. It
thus uses a lot
less electricity (heating or cooling) but that has to be balanced against
the much greater installation
cost (buried heat exchange tubing). Last time I investigated, the
incremental cost of installing the
ground-exchange in a residential situation achieved payback in about 20
years. This is usually
considered a poor investment. With rising energy prices, the payback
period
may have changed
since then.

-- Tom

Geothermal's are very efficient but as mentioned, installation expense is
much higher than air-air.

- Robert

From: "American Mechanical"


Geothermal's are very efficient but as mentioned, installation expense is
much higher than air-air.

- Robert

Which no tract builder ever installs. Ever.

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...

In the Northeast, your most cost efficient form of home heating is still
an oil
burner.

What about coal ???

--

SVL

At 35F, my 11-year old unit can maintain house temperature at 68F, but
has difficulty raising the temp. The run time
asymtotically approaches "forever". The thermostat automatically kicks-in
resistance heating when it detects that the
heat pump is unable to make headway after 2 hours. Thus, the heat pump is
stalled in it's ability to increase the temperature delta.
The outside and inside temp delta varies between various heat pumps, is
dependent on how well the house is insulated, and on the
heat pump capacity (in BTUs) compared to the floorspace of the house.

-- Tom



"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
...

"TOM" wrote

Air-exchange heat pumps stall out at about 35F outside air temperature,
so
electric resistance
heating kicks-in.

Stalls out?

I think you should either explain that statement or not make it at all if
you do not know what you are talking about.

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "American Mechanical"


Geothermal's are very efficient but as mentioned, installation expense is
much higher than air-air.

- Robert

Which no tract builder ever installs. Ever.

Absolutely true. My response was to Tom who mentioned the efficiency of
ground source.

- Robert

"TOM" wrote in message
...


At 35F, my 11-year old unit can maintain house temperature at 68F, but
has difficulty raising the temp. The run time
asymtotically approaches "forever". The thermostat automatically kicks-in
resistance heating when it detects that the
heat pump is unable to make headway after 2 hours. Thus, the heat pump is
stalled in it's ability to increase the temperature delta.
The outside and inside temp delta varies between various heat pumps, is
dependent on how well the house is insulated, and on the
heat pump capacity (in BTUs) compared to the floorspace of the house.

-- Tom

Tom,

Heat pump performance gradually decreaces as outside temp drops. Many times
the run time is greatly increased, but that does not mean that it isn't
working nor that it is costing more to operate and maintain the house
temperature.

- Robert





"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
...

"TOM" wrote

Air-exchange heat pumps stall out at about 35F outside air
temperature,
so
electric resistance
heating kicks-in.

Stalls out?

I think you should either explain that statement or not make it at all
if
you do not know what you are talking about.

On 28-Jul-2004, "American Mechanical" wrote:

Which no tract builder ever installs. Ever.

Absolutely true. My response was to Tom who mentioned the efficiency of
ground source.

Does anyone seriously think that energy costs are going to go down any time
soon? I wonder what it will take for folks to realize that paying these
costs up front will pay back in the long run.

Mike

From: "Michael Daly"


On 28-Jul-2004, "American Mechanical" wrote:

Which no tract builder ever installs. Ever.

Absolutely true. My response was to Tom who mentioned the efficiency of
ground source.

Does anyone seriously think that energy costs are going to go down any time
soon? I wonder what it will take for folks to realize that paying these
costs up front will pay back in the long run.

Mike

Really? I saw a "This Old House" epsode where a ground-source geothermal HP was
installed. One huge payloader, tons of soil removed and replaced, weeks of
work, somewhere around 40,000.- spent over and above your traditional HP unit.
This payback comes when?

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: (Conase)


I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the
NJ
and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both
new
and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD
climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long
stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

Builders install whatever system is cheapest for them to provide. They do
not
care one ioda what the running costs are, since they won't be paying them.

I know 2 families who bought into new homes in the Deleware Water Gap
area, and
both incurred astronomical electric bills.

In the Northeast, your most cost efficient form of home heating is still
an oil
burner.

You go ahead and be at the mercy of OPEC. I'll stick to my ground source
heat pump anyday. And no it didn't cost even 1/5th of the 40g you mentioned
above.

On 28 Jul 2004 01:15:46 GMT, (Conase) wrote:

I was looking at some of the houses for sale in eastern Pennsylvania.

Since there is massive building going on in SEMI-RURAL areas for all the NJ and
NY people currently moving there, I notice that some of the houses both new and
old have HEAT PUMPS for their source of heat.

I have always heard that heat pumps are NOT that effective in COLD climates.
The weather in this area can get to the 20º and below mark for long stretches.
In a BAD year, the temps can linger at 10º for long periods of time.

Comments ?
TIA

I hated it in Phoenix arizona. Could barely get the place warm. And
this is in ARIZONA of all places. Not sure if it is the same type.
Thanks god it worked good for ac.

Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying

On 28-Jul-2004, (HA HA Budys Here) wrote:

Really? I saw a "This Old House" epsode where a ground-source geothermal HP was
installed. One huge payloader, tons of soil removed and replaced, weeks of
work, somewhere around 40,000.- spent over and above your traditional HP unit.
This payback comes when?

There's a difference between buying a good product from a reputable company
and "there's a sucker born every minute". Forty grand? - I've never heard
of anything costing anywhere near that amount.

Mike

From: "Michael Daly"


On 28-Jul-2004, (HA HA Budys Here) wrote:

Really? I saw a "This Old House" epsode where a ground-source geothermal HP
was
installed. One huge payloader, tons of soil removed and replaced, weeks of
work, somewhere around 40,000.- spent over and above your traditional HP
unit.
This payback comes when?

There's a difference between buying a good product from a reputable company
and "there's a sucker born every minute". Forty grand? - I've never heard
of anything costing anywhere near that amount.

Mike

They removed tons of dirt to bury thousands of feet of pipe, 10-12' below
finished grade, then replaced the dirt.

And your local power plant is powered how?

Central A/C was not a consideration in my decision. Don't have it, don't
need
it, don't want it.

When I had a circa 1975 oil burner to provide both heat and domestic hot
water, I would fill a 280 gallon oil tank 3-4x a year. W/O a service
contract
or automatic delivery, I paid no more than 1.25 a gallon in winter, and
averaged about .90 a gallon overall.

That's about 1000.00 in heating costs per year.

I've since converted to natural gas. My monthly bill is 52.00 on the
budget
plan, and I didn't buy the most efficient WH or boiler available either.
That's
624.00 a year. Saving 376.00 a year (even with the spike in the past
year's
natural gas prices)
Payback comes in a little over 6 years.

Even if I had the ductwork to accomodate a heat pump, and never used the
cooling option, electricity here is just under .16 per Kwh. And it's all
generated by either natural gas or OPEC's oil.

Depending on where the OP buys, homes in Northern NJ pay almost the same
rates
I do. In Pennsylvannia one could easily pay 1/2 that rate, as well as in
areas
in upstate NY that "have access to cheap hydropower"

Let's see, we have 2 nuclear and 2-3 hydro plants within an hours drive. Not
to mention a coal burner or 2.

"LBaker" wrote in message
...


And your local power plant is powered how?

Central A/C was not a consideration in my decision. Don't have it, don't
need
it, don't want it.

When I had a circa 1975 oil burner to provide both heat and domestic
hot
water, I would fill a 280 gallon oil tank 3-4x a year. W/O a service
contract
or automatic delivery, I paid no more than 1.25 a gallon in winter, and
averaged about .90 a gallon overall.

That's about 1000.00 in heating costs per year.

I've since converted to natural gas. My monthly bill is 52.00 on the
budget
plan, and I didn't buy the most efficient WH or boiler available either.
That's
624.00 a year. Saving 376.00 a year (even with the spike in the past
year's
natural gas prices)
Payback comes in a little over 6 years.

Even if I had the ductwork to accomodate a heat pump, and never used the
cooling option, electricity here is just under .16 per Kwh. And it's all
generated by either natural gas or OPEC's oil.

Depending on where the OP buys, homes in Northern NJ pay almost the same
rates
I do. In Pennsylvannia one could easily pay 1/2 that rate, as well as in
areas
in upstate NY that "have access to cheap hydropower"

Let's see, we have 2 nuclear and 2-3 hydro plants within an hours drive.
Not
to mention a coal burner or 2.


From what I hear, hydro doesn't produce as much as people think. (at least
around here)

From: "HeatMan"

From what I hear, hydro doesn't produce as much as people think. (at least
around here)

Today, the Hoover Dam is the second highest dam in the country and the 18th
highest in the world. It generates more than four billion kilowatt-hours a year
-- that's enough to serve 1.3 million people!