On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though
The difference, Philo, is YOU KNOW. He'd have to spend a couiple
hours typing the questions to the newsgroup, and another couple
stumbling through google trying to prove we were wrong, before
starting to trace the wire, then he'd hook it up wrong and damage the
timer, then go through the whole exercise again.
A good case for why there are electricians (and mechanics)

Thankfully this time he did the right thing and ordered the right
switch for the job. Hopefully that solves his problem

On 03/03/2017 11:14 PM, wrote:


snip


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though
The difference, Philo, is YOU KNOW. He'd have to spend a couiple
hours typing the questions to the newsgroup, and another couple
stumbling through google trying to prove we were wrong, before
starting to trace the wire, then he'd hook it up wrong and damage the
timer, then go through the whole exercise again.
A good case for why there are electricians (and mechanics)

Thankfully this time he did the right thing and ordered the right
switch for the job. Hopefully that solves his problem




Yep, I've been on "five minute" projects that everyone wanted to spend
two hours discussing in advance.


I remember the time we had to setup a large plywood sign and after a few
minutes of discussion I yelled:

"Let's grab it and put it up...we can then go inside and discuss how we
did it wrong, later."

On 3/3/2017 9:57 PM, philo wrote:
On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though


Depends on the home's construction.

A stick built house on a 48" crawl space with attic access is quick and easy to run more romex.

If it's CMU construction on a slab with a flat roof, a 5-minute job becomes an all-day project.

On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.
Whether it would impose the 5ma considered a threat to life would
depend on the timer. There used to be a standard in U/L about how much
ground current was acceptable from a device like this but it was in
the range of 500 micro amps. I believe that has gone away tho.

We have no idea what condition the wiring is in at this DIYer's home. Given the crazy idea he has expressed about consciously creating an electrical hazard and code violation, his priority for safety sounds low. With such an attitude, it is possible that his grounding electrode system is a mess.

You are right about the standard going away for using the ground as a neutral. They found that multiple devices wired this way in a home has a cumulative effect on the ground current.

I have a chart on my web site outlining the effects of electrical current on the human body: http://www.mrelectrician.tv/safety.html#currenteffects

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 12:01:24 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

I want it to be the ceiling light, the same light I have on every night
when I'm eating dinner etc. So it will look just as it usually does**.

I'm going to be away for 11 weeks, plenty of time for someone to notice
I'm not really there, so I dont' want to be obvious also.

All the reasons on the web for not doing this are about the the ground
being hot if the ground gets cut, and it will be, but any current that
flows out of it will have to go through the switch's clock first.

**I have another timer to turn a light on in my "office" a couple hours
later, when I'm normally there.

So what you are telling us is that there are bad guys watching your house so closely and so
consistently that they will notice as soon as the light in the kitchen changes from a ceiling
fixture to a lamp.

Are you a spy or something? Who is watching your house so closely?

Ok, so let's say they are watching your house that closely. Do you turn the kitchen
light on and off every night at the exact time that the timer is going to? If not, the
folks that are watching your house have 11 weeks to notice the exactness of the
pattern and will know it's a timer.

Of course, they are also probably going to know that you aren't home. They've already
hacked your life and know your complete trip itinerary.

Forget the timer. You're screwed anyway.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that

That's okay.


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

You also included "wired the thing properly". It would take me a long
time** to decide If I'm ready to give up on the original task of that
wire, to flash the kitchen lights when the alarm goes off. The wire is
still connected to the relay that I thought was needed (althought the
instructions for the alarm panel said everything** except that) and I
realize I could use the horn/siren output and a flasher to flash the
lights. I just remembered that IRC it already turned the hall light on
when I walked in the door. Why didn't I connect that to the new panel?

**So I have now decided. I'm not ready to "re-purpose" the wire.. And
after all this the switch I bought from Amazon doesn't require a neutral
-- can't even use one, only has 3 wires -- and it came at 6PM the day I
ordered it. Still amazing.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 04 Mar 2017 00:10:06 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:55:12 -0600, t wrote:

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn

The only two posts I've read by you have been inane complaints about me,
which added nothing to how to fix my problem. In one post you knew
that, and in the other you just werent' thinking. .

So you are the troll, not me. I'm not in your post right now to
kerplunk you, so I'll give you one more chance.

his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

He was whining a week or so ago that I was being too hard on him, so I
backed off, untill now.
His ignorance of how things work makes him DANGEROUS.

I'm not going to and I haven't complained about calling me ignorant for
saying things you think are dangerous. The insults I complained about
were totally personal and your opinion based on your view of how to
live one's life, as if that's the only way.

He asks a lot of questions, but really doesn't seem to learn much?

I wanted to hear the best arguments against doing what I was inclined to
do, and I thought even the best arguments were not very strong in this
situation. And if you'd read this whole thread, 2 or 3 people agreed
with me. So when you say I didn't seem to learn much, I think you mean
I didn't learn to agree with you. I learned what everyone thought,
which is what I wanted.

I'm reminded of a discussion in Pres. Lincoln's cabinet, followed by a
vote and everyone voted one way except Lincoln. He said 12 against, 1
for, the For's have it. Perhaps you're recommending that I pretend to
go along with your advice even when I don't intend to.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

I started out with X-10 in my home but found them to be very unreliable.
So I switched to Insteon devices (sold at smarthome.com). They communicate
wirelessly in addition to sending signals over the power line. They have
been much more reliable for me than X-10 ever was.

I have modules for our porch lights, the lights on our detached garage, our
hot water recirculating pump, and the fan for our fresh air ventilation
system. I control them all using "Home Control Assistant" software on my
computer.

I tried a few different standalone timers for these devices, but find the
computer control more reliable and easier to work with.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:12:46 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:55:00 -0800, "Tony944"
wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of
other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you
shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the
path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But
then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

The hazard would still be there with the light turned off.

***Ground at no time should carry any current if it dose it means that some
how you ground and neutral; is ****ed up!!!

In this case, only the ground from the switch to the panel would
carry current - and a very low current. The ground and neutral are
"bonded" at the panel so the "ground current" would become "neutral
current" at the panel.
Not legal, but certainly a very low potential for danger "for someone
who knows what they are doing" - particularly as a short term
situation.

See, even you agree with me, "very low current", "very low potential for
danger", and "particularly as a short term situation." and your only
path out of agreeing with me is claiming I don't know what I'm doing,
which a) isn't true**, b) wouldn't make ANY difference in what was done.
What would someone who knew EVERYthing about electricity do differently
when he connected light timer to the ground instead of the neutral?
Nothing at all.

**You've been claiming that I don't know what I'm doing more than once
in the past, built you've never had a good example. I didn't argue with
you every time because it was likely pointless. The only thing you have
in this thread is your claim it's dangerous to let the wire from a
light bulb go into your hand and out somewhere else in that hand or the
same arm. Who is right about that is still debatable. One would get a
tingle, but nothing more even from a 150 watt bulb. But I'm in the
middle of packing for a long trip and I don't have time to do it right
now.

When I get back in June, maybe I'll remember or you can remind me. I
probably won't be reading this group after Tuesday and until then, and I
certainly won't have the parts to do the test until I get back.

That said, running "an extra wire" is not to code either unless we are

I wondered about that at the time, but it was 33 years ago and I was
young and "adventurous".

talking individual conductors in a conduit, and runs a MUCH higher
risk than using the ground for a neutral - particularly for "someone

No, not more dangerous at all, because its role was as another neutral,
and only when the alarm was sounding, which was practically never.

It was the light current not just the timer current, but the wire was
insulated, unlike the ground wire.

who really does NOT know what he is doing"
MUCH better to "ballast" the switch with an incandescent (purely
resistive) load or install a switch (timer) that does NOT require a
neutral connection..

I already agreed that that is a good idea, but let me remind you it
wasn't in your first reply. That was:
It definitely won't meet code, but it will work, it won't kill
anyone, and it won't burn your house down.
Do I recommend it? No.
Have I done it? Yes.
-- end quote --

And yet you're dumping on me again for doing what you've already done.
Think about that. This isn't a complaint, just an observation of fact.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 11:39:20 -0500, micky
wrote:

One would get a
tingle, but nothing more even from a 150 watt bulb.

I don't want to let math get in the way of a good rant but a 150w bulb
draws 1.25a when the filament is hot (~96 ohms) and it is pretty much
a dead short when it is cold. (6.3 ohms on the one I just tested)
You would get virtually 100% of available circuit voltage imposed on
your body. only limited by your internal resistance.

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 11:39:20 -0500, micky
wrote:

One would get a
tingle, but nothing more even from a 150 watt bulb.

I don't want to let math get in the way of a good rant but a 150w bulb
draws 1.25a when the filament is hot (~96 ohms) and it is pretty much
a dead short when it is cold. (6.3 ohms on the one I just tested)
You would get virtually 100% of available circuit voltage imposed on
your body. only limited by your internal resistance.

Yes, compaired to the human body resistance the 150 watt light bulb
might as well be a piece of wire. It takes less than 10 % of that
ammount of current to kill. The neon bulbs often have a resistor in
series with them and it is large enough to limit the current to a level
that is probalby not life threatning if outsode the body and jus ton the
skin.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 11:05:47 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that

That's okay.


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

You also included "wired the thing properly". It would take me a long
time** to decide If I'm ready to give up on the original task of that
wire, to flash the kitchen lights when the alarm goes off. The wire is
still connected to the relay that I thought was needed (althought the
instructions for the alarm panel said everything** except that) and I
realize I could use the horn/siren output and a flasher to flash the
lights. I just remembered that IRC it already turned the hall light on
when I walked in the door. Why didn't I connect that to the new panel?

**So I have now decided. I'm not ready to "re-purpose" the wire.. And
after all this the switch I bought from Amazon doesn't require a neutral
-- can't even use one, only has 3 wires -- and it came at 6PM the day I
ordered it. Still amazing.

As to wiring it properly, it's not clear to me what this other wire
that was part of the alarm flashing was all about, but if it's a wire
by itself or a wire in another cable separate from the hot,
then it's not code compliant to use it as the neutral for the timer.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

But as far as advancing, AFAIK X-10 hasn't advanced at all in a decade.
It's low end stuff and while it can be fine for certain applications,
it's certainly not what I'd use for any home automation where you want
it to work reliably. For starters, all communication is one way, with
no acknowledgment. Nor have I seen any new devices, any new tech, anything
invested in it by any company in years.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 1:00:30 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2017 11:39:20 -0500, micky
wrote:

One would get a
tingle, but nothing more even from a 150 watt bulb.

I don't want to let math get in the way of a good rant but a 150w bulb
draws 1.25a when the filament is hot (~96 ohms) and it is pretty much
a dead short when it is cold. (6.3 ohms on the one I just tested)
You would get virtually 100% of available circuit voltage imposed on
your body. only limited by your internal resistance.

+1

Maybe Micky wants to volunteer to test it out and see what kind
of "tingle" he gets.

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 5:07:05 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

I think you mean voltage.






Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have

Going down to where the ground wire is broken (if it ever gets broken.)

If it's broken, it will iiuc have 110 volts, but the moment the current
begins to flow, the resistance of the timer/wall switch will lower it
tremendously.

You could do this test yourself. Take a lamp, cut the cord down the
middle and then cut the neutral wire, the wire that would have gotten
plugged into the wide slot (whether the plug is polarized or not, one
can tell which wire goes to the narrow slot and which would have gone
the wide one, by looking or with a meter.) Plug the lamp in, then
measure the voltage at the cut end of the wire from the lamp. it will
be 110VAC or so but if you touch it, even if another** part of you is
grounded , you'll only get the electricity that can squeeze through the
lightbulb. **But don't let it flow through your heart, your torso.
Don't hold the wire in one hand and use your other hand to ground
yourself. Even if it is teeny and probably can't hurt you.

A 100W light bulb has ~.8A running through it when it's at operating
temp. Cold, the resistance is probably about 10 ohms, giving it the
potential to put up to 12A through you. In your test, the light bulb is
not a safety device, limiting the current. What would limit the
current is the resistance of your body in the circuit, which is orders
of magnitude higher than that of the cold light bulb. And your
"tingle" test has the potential to kill someone.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:38:06 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

But as far as advancing, AFAIK X-10 hasn't advanced at all in a decade.
It's low end stuff and while it can be fine for certain applications,
it's certainly not what I'd use for any home automation where you want
it to work reliably. For starters, all communication is one way, with
no acknowledgment. Nor have I seen any new devices, any new tech, anything
invested in it by any company in years.

I have a handful of X10 stuff here I got in a bundle from Ebay but
about all I use it for is accent lighting way down in the back yard.
It is pretty picky about where I plug the controller in and I do have
the crossover in my panel. It seems that if the circuit is too long,
even on the same phase it gets flaky.

On 03/04/2017 08:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

[snip]

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.


Radio Shack called theirs "Plug 'n' Power", although they were X10. I
still have a few of those.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Those Jesus freaks, well they're friendly but, the **** they believe
has got their minds all shut." [Frank Zappa, "The Meek Shall Inherit
Nothing"]

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 1:52:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:38:06 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

But as far as advancing, AFAIK X-10 hasn't advanced at all in a decade.
It's low end stuff and while it can be fine for certain applications,
it's certainly not what I'd use for any home automation where you want
it to work reliably. For starters, all communication is one way, with
no acknowledgment. Nor have I seen any new devices, any new tech, anything
invested in it by any company in years.

I have a handful of X10 stuff here I got in a bundle from Ebay but
about all I use it for is accent lighting way down in the back yard.
It is pretty picky about where I plug the controller in and I do have
the crossover in my panel. It seems that if the circuit is too long,
even on the same phase it gets flaky.

I had X-10 controlling some outside lights, and a couple inside lights.
Worked fine for a couple years, then mysteriously one of the inside
lights which was on one of the plug-in modules, would no longer
respond. So, figured it was the module. Tried a couple new ones,
they wouldn't work. Tried moving that one to another spot where it
worked showing it was good. The location was one of the closer runs
to the panel, not significantly different than the other ones that
worked. Tried using a cap at the panel to couple the two legs,
even tried moving the circuit to another breaker on the same leg
as the source module. Nothing would make it work. That remains one
of the big X-10 mysteries. And nothing had changed in the house,
ie no new eqpt, etc.

Like you say, it's good for non-critical stuff if it works. And it's
real cheap.