I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.
I suspect there is a resistor or diode array in there that creates
enough voltage drop to power the circuitry.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.
It definitely won't meet code, but it will work, it won't kill
anyone, and it won't burn your house down.
Do I recommend it? No.
Have I done it? Yes.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

I want it to be the ceiling light, the same light I have on every night
when I'm eating dinner etc. So it will look just as it usually does**.

I'm going to be away for 11 weeks, plenty of time for someone to notice
I'm not really there, so I dont' want to be obvious also.

All the reasons on the web for not doing this are about the the ground
being hot if the ground gets cut, and it will be, but any current that
flows out of it will have to go through the switch's clock first.

**I have another timer to turn a light on in my "office" a couple hours
later, when I'm normally there.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:22 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.

Dang, I didn't think of Lowes!

Maybe because they used to have a "search engine" for the search box in
Firefox and they don't have one anymore, but HD does.

Thanks for checking. Yeah, I see that too. Lutron. Came up when I
searched on wall timer.

It's interesting how countdown timers are more popular now, I think,
than plain timers. People concerned about electric bills. I don't
think Lowes has a single wall timer that replaces a wall toggle switch,
and the other stores didn't have many. Home Depot had 4 that woudl
handle CFL's but one or two were countdown, 1 was controllable from a
tablet or phone!!!t, and the most expensive one, the one I want, by
Intermatic, $37, no branch of HD stocks and the earliest they can get it
is after I'll have left. That'll teach me to wait too long.

What else is funny is all these store with My Store are constantly
changing My Store, never to a store I actually go to, and sometimes they
pick one 50 miles away.

I suspect there is a resistor or diode array in there that creates
enough voltage drop to power the circuitry.

Okay. You know more than I do.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:48 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It definitely won't meet code, but it will work, it won't kill
anyone, and it won't burn your house down.

That's very good!

Do I recommend it? No.
Have I done it? Yes.

In that case, I can get by when I'm not home. When I get back mabye I
can disconnect the whole timer part (one wire), and if not, I'll get to
work on that other wire.

The other wire was an early attempt to get the burglar alarm to flash
the kitchen light, which I thought would scare away anyone who broke in,
and make it easy to see which house had the alarm***

(The first summer I was here, someone kicked my front door in between 6
and 8 on a Sunday evening, when I was out for dinner. He didnt' steal
anything, I think the annooying** dog next door started barking, but I
still got very concerned about alarms, especially when they got rid of
the dog. **The dog barked constantly every time they took him out,
when I was trying to go to sleep and before I woke up in the morning. I
hated him, but I dont' know why else the burglar would have left without
stealling anything.)

*** The first alarm panel had a connection that did that, it had a
pulsing ground, but I connected it through a relay to make sure it could
handle the ceiling light, then 3 incancescent bulbs. It worked fine
until I put a timer switch in in place of the simple switch, and I
thought I had a way around that too.

Hmmm. Why didn't I just run another wire, since I'd run one already.
Too late now. The current alarm doesn't have that....although I coudl
put my own flasher in. I already have the relay wired. (There arne't
enough burglaries to go to all this trouble, but it can be fun.) --
thinking outloud.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:22:06 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:22 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.

Dang, I didn't think of Lowes!

What's amazing is that Amazon has two models, for about $24 and 43, and
they will ship it to me tomorrow, meaning today the third if I order it
by noon today (which is tomorrow afaic) For $9.98 extra dollars.

=== Okay, I bought the fancy one. Should come today. Amazing.

Even though I'm not in Prime. Were I in Prime it would be free, for
over $$35 and $6 for under 35, but non-Prime it's $10 no matter what.

They have another model Woods, for $10 that won't come until Saturday,
which is still plenty of time.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

I guess I'll feed this troll.....

Do what you propose, but dont turn on the power until you're ready to
leave for your vacation. Right before you leave, spill a gallon of
gasoline on your kitchen floor, then toss a match into the gas, lock the
door, and leave.

The end result will be the same......
The llames will provide a lot of light until the fire dept brings in a
bulldozer to remove any dangerous standing walls (If there are any).

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

On 03/02/2017 10:37 PM, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??



The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house. Every metal wallplate and every grounded appliance will have that potential current on it. It is possible that you could touch an appliance and a water faucet at the same time and get zapped.

Get yourself some plug in lamp timers. You don't want to create an electrical hazard for your entire household.

John Grabowski
https://www.MrElectrician.TV

Buy one of those screw in outlets. You know what I mean, it fits in a normal light socket, but it has slots to plug in. There's probably a name for it but I don't know it.

Put your step ladder under the ceiling light. Put your lamp on the top of your step ladder. Plug your timer into the ceiling outlet and your lamp into the timer.

Problem solved.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.
Whether it would impose the 5ma considered a threat to life would
depend on the timer. There used to be a standard in U/L about how much
ground current was acceptable from a device like this but it was in
the range of 500 micro amps. I believe that has gone away tho.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:46:47 -0600, philo wrote:

The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.


AKA the main bonding jumper

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

On 3/2/2017 11:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.


Maybe MacGyver the timer switch into your breaker panel so it switches the entire kitchen light circuit.

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:44:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?
as part of the load.. The timer runs on the "tickle current" through
the bulb, which is why it won't work with a cfl or led

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.
Remember, it's Mikey. -----.
I could say more, but I'm not nasty.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:46:47 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:37 PM, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??



The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.

which WOULD allow the timer to work. Not Kosher, but workable.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:


I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house. Every metal wallplate and every grounded appliance will have that potential current on it. It is possible that you could touch an appliance and a water faucet at the same time and get zapped.

Get yourself some plug in lamp timers. You don't want to create an electrical hazard for your entire household.

John Grabowski
https://www.MrElectrician.TV
Would only happen if the ground were to be "lifted" and the current
is in the range of 5 ma.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

The hazard would still be there with the light turned off.

wrote in message ...

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of
other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you
shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the
path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But
then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

The hazard would still be there with the light turned off.

***Ground at no time should carry any current if it dose it means that some
how you ground and neutral; is ****ed up!!!

On 03/03/2017 08:04 AM, TimR wrote:
Buy one of those screw in outlets. You know what I mean, it fits in a normal light socket, but it has slots to plug in. There's probably a name for it but I don't know it.

I was looking for one of those, and could have really used that (the
NAME FOR IT) when asking about where to find one.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"As the poet said, 'Only God can make a tree' -- probably because it's
so hard to figure out how to get the bark on." -- Woody Allen

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 2:17:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.


Well, here's my thought process, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you'd need two faults. You'd need an open EGC, I agree. But remember the way he's wiring it, the lamp current goes back to the neutral, only the timer current goes to ground. The timer only carries 5 mA, so it must be inherently high resistance. So in order for the ground to become hazardous, wouldn't the EGC AND the timer internal resistance have to both fail? What am I missing?

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 11:37:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

Often tied together?

Next!

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 8:16:06 AM UTC-5, John G wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Following the laws of physics, that isn't going to happen. The current
would be between his hack and the panel.


Every metal wallplate and every grounded appliance will have that potential current on it. It is possible that you could touch an appliance and a water faucet at the same time and get zapped.


Only if the ground and neutral are not bonded together at the panel. Every panel I've seen has been bonded and it;s one of the most basic code requirements since there were code requirements.


Get yourself some plug in lamp timers. You don't want to create an electrical hazard for your entire household.

John Grabowski
https://www.MrElectrician.TV

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit.

+1

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:57:10 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:44:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?

as part of the load.. The timer runs on the "tickle current" through
the bulb, which is why it won't work with a cfl or led

Oh, I get it. I could have done that. One of the 3 models on Amazon
would work with CFL but only if it met the minimum draw, which was 40
watts (which iirc is 150 watt equivalent, which I think is what I'm
using) but I bought one without that requirement. So I bought one that
doesn't need a neutral wire after all. They promised it by 9PM if I
bought it by noon.

I shouldn't be impressed. There have been messenger services that would
deliver things quickly for over 100 years. In NYC inthe 70's there
were lots of folks on bicycles dellivering financial stuff mostly, and
my friend did that with his car. Maybe it's that it's only 10 dollars.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:32:02 -0500, "C. Sparks"
wrote:

On 3/2/2017 11:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.


Maybe MacGyver the timer switch into your breaker panel so it switches the entire kitchen light circuit.

A good idea if I could do it. .... I just called McGyver and he says I
need a foil gum wrapper and two ping pong balls to do this.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

I think you mean voltage.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have

Going down to where the ground wire is broken (if it ever gets broken.)

If it's broken, it will iiuc have 110 volts, but the moment the current
begins to flow, the resistance of the timer/wall switch will lower it
tremendously.

You could do this test yourself. Take a lamp, cut the cord down the
middle and then cut the neutral wire, the wire that would have gotten
plugged into the wide slot (whether the plug is polarized or not, one
can tell which wire goes to the narrow slot and which would have gone
the wide one, by looking or with a meter.) Plug the lamp in, then
measure the voltage at the cut end of the wire from the lamp. it will
be 110VAC or so but if you touch it, even if another** part of you is
grounded , you'll only get the electricity that can squeeze through the
lightbulb. **But don't let it flow through your heart, your torso.
Don't hold the wire in one hand and use your other hand to ground
yourself. Even if it is teeny and probably can't hurt you.

If it's not broken, even the voltage on the ground wire in question will
be next to zero, because the wire is grounded. If there is some
resistance in the wire between where you touch it and the fuse box, and
of course there's maybe 0.00001 ohms or even 0.001 then the voltage
present will be found with E=IR, say 0.001 x 0.005 amps which = 0.00005
volts.

And that is just that one ground wire and everything connected to it,
not all the other ground wires in the house, which have to pass by the
grounded busbar to get to the wire in question.

bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

Right, all the connected grounds, but this is a light-circuit only, so
that's the hall, front door light I think, dining room, kitchen, and
range hood lights, and the grounds in the switch boxes. It won't
include the ground pin on receptacles.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:55:00 -0800, "Tony944"
wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of
other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you
shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the
path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But
then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

The hazard would still be there with the light turned off.

***Ground at no time should carry any current if it dose it means that some
how you ground and neutral; is ****ed up!!!
In this case, only the ground from the switch to the panel would
carry current - and a very low current. The ground and neutral are
"bonded" at the panel so the "ground current" would become "neutral
current" at the panel.
Not legal, but certainly a very low potential for danger "for someone
who knows what they are doing" - particularly as a short term
situation.
That said, running "an extra wire" is not to code either unless we are
talking individual conductors in a conduit, and runs a MUCH higher
risk than using the ground for a neutral - particularly for "someone
who really does NOT know what he is doing"
MUCH better to "ballast" the switch with an incandescent (purely
resistive) load or install a switch (timer) that does NOT require a
neutral connection..

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:11:54 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 2:17:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

Just one. An open EGC.


Well, here's my thought process, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you'd need two faults. You'd need an open EGC, I agree. But remember the way he's wiring it, the lamp current goes back to the neutral, only the timer current goes to ground. The timer only carries 5 mA, so it must be inherently high resistance. So in order for the ground to become hazardous, wouldn't the EGC AND the timer internal resistance have to both fail? What am I missing?
Nothing at all. Unless the timer fails there is barely enough
"leakage current" to trip a GFCI device, and in order for the ground
connections in the house to become "live" the bond between the neutral
bus and the ground bus would have to become open. Even a high
resistance fault on the bond would not cause a danger unless it was
high enough that it could not pass that 5ma of current. (it might take
3ma and leave the other 2ma on the line, depending on your resistance
to ground - think "voltage devider".)
Without a timer failure the most you would experience with a total
bonding failure is a solid tickle. I have actualy held the "neutral"
wire from one of those timers in my hand and touched ground without
feelng ANYTHING. (I know, no sense, no feeling).

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:06:55 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:37:23 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

I think you mean voltage.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have

Going down to where the ground wire is broken (if it ever gets broken.)

If it's broken, it will iiuc have 110 volts, but the moment the current
begins to flow, the resistance of the timer/wall switch will lower it
tremendously.

You could do this test yourself. Take a lamp, cut the cord down the
middle and then cut the neutral wire, the wire that would have gotten
plugged into the wide slot (whether the plug is polarized or not, one
can tell which wire goes to the narrow slot and which would have gone
the wide one, by looking or with a meter.) Plug the lamp in, then
measure the voltage at the cut end of the wire from the lamp. it will
be 110VAC or so but if you touch it, even if another** part of you is
grounded , you'll only get the electricity that can squeeze through the
lightbulb. **But don't let it flow through your heart, your torso.
Don't hold the wire in one hand and use your other hand to ground
yourself. Even if it is teeny and probably can't hurt you.


What kind of light bulb are you proposing to use?
This is VERY DANGEROUS for those who"don't know what they are doing"
Using something like an NE2 bulb would be safe. Using even a 1 watt
incandescent COULD be fatal.
Again, I stress IF YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HECK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT
DO NOT TRY THIS!!!. And CERTAINLY do NOT advise others.

From what you have written here you do NOT know what the heck you are
doing. If you want to kill yourself, that's up to you -


Note to all readers

DO NOT DO ANYTHING MIKEY SUGGESTS WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRICITY - He
does NOT have a CLUE what the hell he's talking about.
PERIOD.



If it's not broken, even the voltage on the ground wire in question will
be next to zero, because the wire is grounded. If there is some
resistance in the wire between where you touch it and the fuse box, and
of course there's maybe 0.00001 ohms or even 0.001 then the voltage
present will be found with E=IR, say 0.001 x 0.005 amps which = 0.00005
volts.

And that is just that one ground wire and everything connected to it,
not all the other ground wires in the house, which have to pass by the
grounded busbar to get to the wire in question.

bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.

Right, all the connected grounds, but this is a light-circuit only, so
that's the hall, front door light I think, dining room, kitchen, and
range hood lights, and the grounds in the switch boxes. It won't
include the ground pin on receptacles.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn
his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:55:12 -0600, t wrote:

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn
his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

He was whining a week or so ago that I was being too hard on him, so I
backed off, untill now.
His ignorance of how things work makes him DANGEROUS.
He asks a lot of questions, but really doesn't seem to learn much?