I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

I want it to be the ceiling light, the same light I have on every night
when I'm eating dinner etc. So it will look just as it usually does**.

I'm going to be away for 11 weeks, plenty of time for someone to notice
I'm not really there, so I dont' want to be obvious also.

All the reasons on the web for not doing this are about the the ground
being hot if the ground gets cut, and it will be, but any current that
flows out of it will have to go through the switch's clock first.

**I have another timer to turn a light on in my "office" a couple hours
later, when I'm normally there.

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 12:01:24 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

I want it to be the ceiling light, the same light I have on every night
when I'm eating dinner etc. So it will look just as it usually does**.

I'm going to be away for 11 weeks, plenty of time for someone to notice
I'm not really there, so I dont' want to be obvious also.

All the reasons on the web for not doing this are about the the ground
being hot if the ground gets cut, and it will be, but any current that
flows out of it will have to go through the switch's clock first.

**I have another timer to turn a light on in my "office" a couple hours
later, when I'm normally there.

So what you are telling us is that there are bad guys watching your house so closely and so
consistently that they will notice as soon as the light in the kitchen changes from a ceiling
fixture to a lamp.

Are you a spy or something? Who is watching your house so closely?

Ok, so let's say they are watching your house that closely. Do you turn the kitchen
light on and off every night at the exact time that the timer is going to? If not, the
folks that are watching your house have 11 weeks to notice the exactness of the
pattern and will know it's a timer.

Of course, they are also probably going to know that you aren't home. They've already
hacked your life and know your complete trip itinerary.

Forget the timer. You're screwed anyway.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:44:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?
as part of the load.. The timer runs on the "tickle current" through
the bulb, which is why it won't work with a cfl or led

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:57:10 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:44:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:23:40 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:37:15 -0800 (PST), wrote:

The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??
another "solution" is to put a small (like 5 watt) incandescent bulb
in the circuit

Do you mean in parallel with the load, or between the swtich and the
ground acting as neutral?

as part of the load.. The timer runs on the "tickle current" through
the bulb, which is why it won't work with a cfl or led

Oh, I get it. I could have done that. One of the 3 models on Amazon
would work with CFL but only if it met the minimum draw, which was 40
watts (which iirc is 150 watt equivalent, which I think is what I'm
using) but I bought one without that requirement. So I bought one that
doesn't need a neutral wire after all. They promised it by 9PM if I
bought it by noon.

I shouldn't be impressed. There have been messenger services that would
deliver things quickly for over 100 years. In NYC inthe 70's there
were lots of folks on bicycles dellivering financial stuff mostly, and
my friend did that with his car. Maybe it's that it's only 10 dollars.

On 03/02/2017 10:37 PM, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??



The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:46:47 -0600, philo wrote:

The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.


AKA the main bonding jumper

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:46:47 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:37 PM, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??



The only place a ground and neutral wire could correctly be "tied
together" would be at the ground buss within the breaker box.

which WOULD allow the timer to work. Not Kosher, but workable.

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 11:37:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The neutral and ground wires are often tied together at some pint in the house wiring. Rather than go to all this trouble, why not just have the timer run a table lamp placed on the kitchen table??

Often tied together?

Next!

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.
I suspect there is a resistor or diode array in there that creates
enough voltage drop to power the circuitry.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:22 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.

Dang, I didn't think of Lowes!

Maybe because they used to have a "search engine" for the search box in
Firefox and they don't have one anymore, but HD does.

Thanks for checking. Yeah, I see that too. Lutron. Came up when I
searched on wall timer.

It's interesting how countdown timers are more popular now, I think,
than plain timers. People concerned about electric bills. I don't
think Lowes has a single wall timer that replaces a wall toggle switch,
and the other stores didn't have many. Home Depot had 4 that woudl
handle CFL's but one or two were countdown, 1 was controllable from a
tablet or phone!!!t, and the most expensive one, the one I want, by
Intermatic, $37, no branch of HD stocks and the earliest they can get it
is after I'll have left. That'll teach me to wait too long.

What else is funny is all these store with My Store are constantly
changing My Store, never to a store I actually go to, and sometimes they
pick one 50 miles away.

I suspect there is a resistor or diode array in there that creates
enough voltage drop to power the circuitry.

Okay. You know more than I do.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 03 Mar 2017 00:22:06 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:22 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It is not legal but it works as long as there is no GFCI in there.
I can't say it os a good idea tho. I found a 2 wire occupancy sensor
at Lowes that supports CFL and LED so I bet you can find a timer.

Dang, I didn't think of Lowes!

What's amazing is that Amazon has two models, for about $24 and 43, and
they will ship it to me tomorrow, meaning today the third if I order it
by noon today (which is tomorrow afaic) For $9.98 extra dollars.

=== Okay, I bought the fancy one. Should come today. Amazing.

Even though I'm not in Prime. Were I in Prime it would be free, for
over $$35 and $6 for under 35, but non-Prime it's $10 no matter what.

They have another model Woods, for $10 that won't come until Saturday,
which is still plenty of time.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.
It definitely won't meet code, but it will work, it won't kill
anyone, and it won't burn your house down.
Do I recommend it? No.
Have I done it? Yes.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:54:48 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

It definitely won't meet code, but it will work, it won't kill
anyone, and it won't burn your house down.

That's very good!

Do I recommend it? No.
Have I done it? Yes.

In that case, I can get by when I'm not home. When I get back mabye I
can disconnect the whole timer part (one wire), and if not, I'll get to
work on that other wire.

The other wire was an early attempt to get the burglar alarm to flash
the kitchen light, which I thought would scare away anyone who broke in,
and make it easy to see which house had the alarm***

(The first summer I was here, someone kicked my front door in between 6
and 8 on a Sunday evening, when I was out for dinner. He didnt' steal
anything, I think the annooying** dog next door started barking, but I
still got very concerned about alarms, especially when they got rid of
the dog. **The dog barked constantly every time they took him out,
when I was trying to go to sleep and before I woke up in the morning. I
hated him, but I dont' know why else the burglar would have left without
stealling anything.)

*** The first alarm panel had a connection that did that, it had a
pulsing ground, but I connected it through a relay to make sure it could
handle the ceiling light, then 3 incancescent bulbs. It worked fine
until I put a timer switch in in place of the simple switch, and I
thought I had a way around that too.

Hmmm. Why didn't I just run another wire, since I'd run one already.
Too late now. The current alarm doesn't have that....although I coudl
put my own flasher in. I already have the relay wired. (There arne't
enough burglaries to go to all this trouble, but it can be fun.) --
thinking outloud.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:11:51 -0500, micky
wrote:

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

I guess I'll feed this troll.....

Do what you propose, but dont turn on the power until you're ready to
leave for your vacation. Right before you leave, spill a gallon of
gasoline on your kitchen floor, then toss a match into the gas, lock the
door, and leave.

The end result will be the same......
The llames will provide a lot of light until the fire dept brings in a
bulldozer to remove any dangerous standing walls (If there are any).

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.
Remember, it's Mikey. -----.
I could say more, but I'm not nasty.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though
The difference, Philo, is YOU KNOW. He'd have to spend a couiple
hours typing the questions to the newsgroup, and another couple
stumbling through google trying to prove we were wrong, before
starting to trace the wire, then he'd hook it up wrong and damage the
timer, then go through the whole exercise again.
A good case for why there are electricians (and mechanics)

Thankfully this time he did the right thing and ordered the right
switch for the job. Hopefully that solves his problem

On 03/03/2017 11:14 PM, wrote:


snip


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though
The difference, Philo, is YOU KNOW. He'd have to spend a couiple
hours typing the questions to the newsgroup, and another couple
stumbling through google trying to prove we were wrong, before
starting to trace the wire, then he'd hook it up wrong and damage the
timer, then go through the whole exercise again.
A good case for why there are electricians (and mechanics)

Thankfully this time he did the right thing and ordered the right
switch for the job. Hopefully that solves his problem




Yep, I've been on "five minute" projects that everyone wanted to spend
two hours discussing in advance.


I remember the time we had to setup a large plywood sign and after a few
minutes of discussion I yelled:

"Let's grab it and put it up...we can then go inside and discuss how we
did it wrong, later."

On 3/3/2017 9:57 PM, philo wrote:
On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though


Depends on the home's construction.

A stick built house on a 48" crawl space with attic access is quick and easy to run more romex.

If it's CMU construction on a slab with a flat roof, a 5-minute job becomes an all-day project.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that

That's okay.


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

You also included "wired the thing properly". It would take me a long
time** to decide If I'm ready to give up on the original task of that
wire, to flash the kitchen lights when the alarm goes off. The wire is
still connected to the relay that I thought was needed (althought the
instructions for the alarm panel said everything** except that) and I
realize I could use the horn/siren output and a flasher to flash the
lights. I just remembered that IRC it already turned the hall light on
when I walked in the door. Why didn't I connect that to the new panel?

**So I have now decided. I'm not ready to "re-purpose" the wire.. And
after all this the switch I bought from Amazon doesn't require a neutral
-- can't even use one, only has 3 wires -- and it came at 6PM the day I
ordered it. Still amazing.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 11:05:47 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:57:33 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/03/2017 03:40 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo
wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how str
I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

No, not even close.




OK if you are not BSing, sorry about that

That's okay.


I think it would have taken me five minutes to trace that wire though

You also included "wired the thing properly". It would take me a long
time** to decide If I'm ready to give up on the original task of that
wire, to flash the kitchen lights when the alarm goes off. The wire is
still connected to the relay that I thought was needed (althought the
instructions for the alarm panel said everything** except that) and I
realize I could use the horn/siren output and a flasher to flash the
lights. I just remembered that IRC it already turned the hall light on
when I walked in the door. Why didn't I connect that to the new panel?

**So I have now decided. I'm not ready to "re-purpose" the wire.. And
after all this the switch I bought from Amazon doesn't require a neutral
-- can't even use one, only has 3 wires -- and it came at 6PM the day I
ordered it. Still amazing.

As to wiring it properly, it's not clear to me what this other wire
that was part of the alarm flashing was all about, but if it's a wire
by itself or a wire in another cable separate from the hot,
then it's not code compliant to use it as the neutral for the timer.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn
his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:55:12 -0600, t wrote:

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn
his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

He was whining a week or so ago that I was being too hard on him, so I
backed off, untill now.
His ignorance of how things work makes him DANGEROUS.
He asks a lot of questions, but really doesn't seem to learn much?

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 04 Mar 2017 00:10:06 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:55:12 -0600, t wrote:

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 06:45:05 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/02/2017 10:11 PM, micky wrote:
I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.




I call bull****.

In the amount of time you have spent posting here, you could have traced
out that apparently unused wire and wired the thing properly.

You got that right......

At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

So, while this TROLL keeps ****ing and moaning about his plan to burn

The only two posts I've read by you have been inane complaints about me,
which added nothing to how to fix my problem. In one post you knew
that, and in the other you just werent' thinking. .

So you are the troll, not me. I'm not in your post right now to
kerplunk you, so I'll give you one more chance.

his mommy's home to the ground using illegal wiring practices, he could
have bought some of these modules and had the whole job done by now. But
we all know that would end his trolling fun...

This TROLL probably dont know which end of an extension cord plugs into
an outlet.

He was whining a week or so ago that I was being too hard on him, so I
backed off, untill now.
His ignorance of how things work makes him DANGEROUS.

I'm not going to and I haven't complained about calling me ignorant for
saying things you think are dangerous. The insults I complained about
were totally personal and your opinion based on your view of how to
live one's life, as if that's the only way.

He asks a lot of questions, but really doesn't seem to learn much?

I wanted to hear the best arguments against doing what I was inclined to
do, and I thought even the best arguments were not very strong in this
situation. And if you'd read this whole thread, 2 or 3 people agreed
with me. So when you say I didn't seem to learn much, I think you mean
I didn't learn to agree with you. I learned what everyone thought,
which is what I wanted.

I'm reminded of a discussion in Pres. Lincoln's cabinet, followed by a
vote and everyone voted one way except Lincoln. He said 12 against, 1
for, the For's have it. Perhaps you're recommending that I pretend to
go along with your advice even when I don't intend to.

On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

I started out with X-10 in my home but found them to be very unreliable.
So I switched to Insteon devices (sold at smarthome.com). They communicate
wirelessly in addition to sending signals over the power line. They have
been much more reliable for me than X-10 ever was.

I have modules for our porch lights, the lights on our detached garage, our
hot water recirculating pump, and the fan for our fresh air ventilation
system. I control them all using "Home Control Assistant" software on my
computer.

I tried a few different standalone timers for these devices, but find the
computer control more reliable and easier to work with.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

But as far as advancing, AFAIK X-10 hasn't advanced at all in a decade.
It's low end stuff and while it can be fine for certain applications,
it's certainly not what I'd use for any home automation where you want
it to work reliably. For starters, all communication is one way, with
no acknowledgment. Nor have I seen any new devices, any new tech, anything
invested in it by any company in years.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:38:06 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/3/2017 9:55 PM, t wrote:


At least 30 years ago, I went to Radio Shack and bought a switch
replacement module. I installed it in a room, and using some other items
that go with this switch, I could have that light turn on, off, or dim
it from a timer, or turn it on and off from a hand held remote, and
install more of these switches in other rooms and each one has their own
number on the master control and on the remote. Later on, I bought some
modules that plug into an outlet, and could turn a lamp, my stereo and
other stuff in the home, all from my remote or the master control. I
even rigged up around 3000 watts of outdoor xmas lights on these modules
and could turn them on and off a block away from home.

These modules cost around $15 each, (In the late 1980's) but were well
worth the price.

I'm sure they have advenced these devices even more by now.

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.

But as far as advancing, AFAIK X-10 hasn't advanced at all in a decade.
It's low end stuff and while it can be fine for certain applications,
it's certainly not what I'd use for any home automation where you want
it to work reliably. For starters, all communication is one way, with
no acknowledgment. Nor have I seen any new devices, any new tech, anything
invested in it by any company in years.

I have a handful of X10 stuff here I got in a bundle from Ebay but
about all I use it for is accent lighting way down in the back yard.
It is pretty picky about where I plug the controller in and I do have
the crossover in my panel. It seems that if the circuit is too long,
even on the same phase it gets flaky.

On 03/04/2017 08:19 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

[snip]

It is an X-10 system Available under a few names I bought one at the
same time you did. I still have a few lights controlled by the timer.
Now they even have screw in lamp modules.


Radio Shack called theirs "Plug 'n' Power", although they were X10. I
still have a few of those.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Those Jesus freaks, well they're friendly but, the **** they believe
has got their minds all shut." [Frank Zappa, "The Meek Shall Inherit
Nothing"]

I know you're going to tell me to do this another way but I don't know
how strongly you're going to say it.

I am going away for a few days, and I didnt' expect this. I planned to
put a timer on my kitchen ceiling fixture. The one I used to have worked
fine but failed, and the one after that failed too (after about 15 years
each). The one I bought recently turned out to be no good for CFL's so
I just got another one and it wants the neutral wire.

Only for the current that it needs to run the internal clock. Not much
more than a watch battery puts out, right?

All I've got available is the ground wire. How bad is it to use that
until I can run a neutral wire?.

I already have a 12 or 14 gauge wire running to this box that used to be
used for another purpose, but no time before I go away to scope it out.

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house. Every metal wallplate and every grounded appliance will have that potential current on it. It is possible that you could touch an appliance and a water faucet at the same time and get zapped.

Get yourself some plug in lamp timers. You don't want to create an electrical hazard for your entire household.

John Grabowski
https://www.MrElectrician.TV

Buy one of those screw in outlets. You know what I mean, it fits in a normal light socket, but it has slots to plug in. There's probably a name for it but I don't know it.

Put your step ladder under the ceiling light. Put your lamp on the top of your step ladder. Plug your timer into the ceiling outlet and your lamp into the timer.

Problem solved.

On 03/03/2017 08:04 AM, TimR wrote:
Buy one of those screw in outlets. You know what I mean, it fits in a normal light socket, but it has slots to plug in. There's probably a name for it but I don't know it.

I was looking for one of those, and could have really used that (the
NAME FOR IT) when asking about where to find one.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"As the poet said, 'Only God can make a tree' -- probably because it's
so hard to figure out how to get the bark on." -- Woody Allen

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.
Whether it would impose the 5ma considered a threat to life would
depend on the timer. There used to be a standard in U/L about how much
ground current was acceptable from a device like this but it was in
the range of 500 micro amps. I believe that has gone away tho.

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:27:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:16:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

The current on that ground will be on every ground wire in your house.

Not exactly true. It will just be on the grounding conductor going
back to the main bonding jumper, that one circuit. (unless you have
bonded that EGC to other circuits down stream of the MBJ)
In normal installation these are star wired.
It still can present a hazard and it is still a 250.6 violation.

I agree it's a violation but the hazard part would require a couple of other faults, wouldn't it?

If a ground carries current but is at ground potential, seems like you shouldn't get a shock. If the ground conductor was broken anywhere on the path back to the main panel, all the connected grounds would be hot. But then your light wouldn't work, you'd know you had a missing ground.