"Phouka" wrote in message
...
Kenny-Z wrote:
I hear Carrier has a good rep, but I have contractor friends who can
cut me a deal on Janitrol and Coleman models (and on the install!)...
Any advice?

Coleman is a York unit...good when installed correctly....Goodman makes
JaniJunks..err..Janitrols...even installed correctly, they suck total
complete ass...
I keep more parts on the trucks and in stock for that POS than anything.
And to be fair, out of all the Yorks we install a year, we average about 4
warranty issues a month..on some equipment we didnt install, but out of the
units we have, only one has had a major warranty callback, and that was a
simple fan motor, and one that the local Rheem dealer installed about 6
years ago had a compressor go out, and that was warranty...




We just had central ac installed in our new house, and I read through
most of the past posts -- here's what I got, loud and clear:

Get a Trane or Carrier (they are also branded as Bryant and American
Std). Avoid Rheem, Ruud, etc, as these are usually low-end "contractor"
models.

Rheem/Ruud are some of the best units out there...when installed correctly.
Trane, MADE by American Standard, is a POS too...So is Lennox. Carrier
thinks the world is a guinea pig..All units use a scroll compressor, unlike
Trane, or York (has several models with Scrolls) and if I wasnt a York
Dealer, I would be a Rheem/Ruud dealer due to the fact they are tough as
tanks, ugly as sin ( the biggest drawback next to the service end) and last.


Trane was on the verge of going out of business, when American Standard, who
had aquired the GEs HVAC division saved them.
Trane, has a GREAT marketing campaign...but ask me what I repair, and
replace more of than Goodmans.....Tranes...


But, it's more critical to get it sized properly for your house and
heat/cooling load -- too small and it will run constantly and cost you
tons of money, too large and it will not run often enough to remove the
humidity from the air.

Close...too small, and its gonna remove lots of humidity, but not cool worth
a damn...
Too large, and its gonna cool, and its gonna run the bill as high, or higher
than a smaller unit, due to larger energy consumption.

The hvac guys have a set of calculations they go
through(manual j? something like that) to determine the size of the
compressor.

Nope...we determine total system size based upon Manual J, or T, or
N...depends on the situation, and type of system, and structure.
Then, we do a manual D, to make sure that enough air is delivered, and at
the proper speed, and volume to maintain the temps as the system is
designed, while maintaining the correct static pressures in the system.


There is no "rule of thumb" -- ie, no x square foot = y tons
of cooling.

Excellent..bravo..


We got a Carrier, BTW.

Installed correctly, it will be fine, I just hope you didnt get the R410
(Puron) system.


Each and every system has its issues. I went with a brand I knew from prior
experence was a winner, and figured if it could hold up in the Ca deserts,
it would be fine here, and was right...

Bottom line

Name means NOTHING
Install means ALL.

Even a Janitrol, with all their issues, and problems, cheap cases, cheaper
parts, will do the job as its designed..till it breaks...and it will break..
We recently got a new account...an apartment complex with a few new
Goodmans, (about 50) some older Rheems, and some ancient (pre 78 era) GE and
Payne units...out of all the units.....we have been running our asses silly
with Goodman warranty...in one day alone, we put in 5
compressors...sorry..but thats life with a Goodman.




Robin

I have a Carriar, no problems with it, very little maintenance in the 5
years I've had it. It cools our house in less than an hour after turning
it on. It was installed by my Plumbing/Electrician company. I had to
have separate vents for my central AC.

We have a ranch home, 3 bedrooms.

CBHvac wrote

Coleman is a York unit...good when installed correctly....Goodman makes
JaniJunks..err..Janitrols...even installed correctly, they suck total
complete ass...
I keep more parts on the trucks and in stock for that POS than anything.
And to be fair, out of all the Yorks we install a year, we average about 4
warranty issues a month..on some equipment we didnt install, but out of the
units we have, only one has had a major warranty callback, and that was a
simple fan motor, and one that the local Rheem dealer installed about 6
years ago had a compressor go out, and that was warranty...


Rheem/Ruud are some of the best units out there...when installed correctly.
Trane, MADE by American Standard, is a POS too...So is Lennox. Carrier
thinks the world is a guinea pig..All units use a scroll compressor, unlike
Trane, or York (has several models with Scrolls) and if I wasnt a York
Dealer, I would be a Rheem/Ruud dealer due to the fact they are tough as
tanks, ugly as sin ( the biggest drawback next to the service end) and last.


Trane was on the verge of going out of business, when American Standard, who
had aquired the GEs HVAC division saved them.
Trane, has a GREAT marketing campaign...but ask me what I repair, and
replace more of than Goodmans.....Tranes...


Nope...we determine total system size based upon Manual J, or T, or
N...depends on the situation, and type of system, and structure.
Then, we do a manual D, to make sure that enough air is delivered, and at
the proper speed, and volume to maintain the temps as the system is
designed, while maintaining the correct static pressures in the system.


Bottom line: Name means NOTHING Install means ALL.

Even a Janitrol, with all their issues, and problems, cheap cases, cheaper
parts, will do the job as its designed..till it breaks...and it will break..
We recently got a new account...an apartment complex with a few new
Goodmans, (about 50) [50 What, Goodman's or Rheems?]

Who installed them and what was causing the compressor failures? Those
factors will be the key as to why the compressors failed at that rate!
I'm willing to bet that if you investigate sufficiently you will find a
maintenance or install cause for most of those compressor failures. D-

some older Rheems, and some ancient (pre 78 era) GE and
Payne units...out of all the units.....we have been running our asses silly
with Goodman warranty...in one day alone, we put in 5
compressors...sorry..but thats life with a Goodman.


We both know there are a "Major Qualifications" to make in most of these
cases. How were they installed and maintained! These are the major
determining factors when assessing or drawing any conclusions concerning
the difference in equipment.

Most of the working components of most air conditioner's are
manufactured by the same companies. Yes, some makes and models of
compressors and fan motors may be better than others but in my many
years in this industry I have not known of some companies putting
seconds' in their units.

Therefore, if the entire system duct work, airflow, etc., is designed
and operating at its spec standards, I see no reason why one Brand Name
is going to be much superior to another Brand Name. The cabinets were a
bit light and the paint faded on Goodmans, but if operating to specs
they held up better than many other Brands I worked on. I did hate the
aluminum coils Carrier and others had for years. Retired since September
1992. D-

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trane or carrier has my vote

"D-" wrote in message ...
Who installed them and what was causing the compressor failures? Those
factors will be the key as to why the compressors failed at that rate!
I'm willing to bet that if you investigate sufficiently you will find a
maintenance or install cause for most of those compressor failures. D-


Three different companies, one, the one that installed the majority of them,
is an excellent company, and when I have more work than we can handle at
this office, we send work their way, and hes been around since the 60s...he
IS the ONLY other company in the area I fully trust.
Bristol comps used in the 96-99 era Goodmans are known for early
failure...anyone in the trade can tell you that....go to any Goodman
stocking distributor this week here, (hitting upper 90s) and see if they
have any in stock...doubtful..


some older Rheems, and some ancient (pre 78 era) GE and
Payne units...out of all the units.....we have been running our asses
silly
with Goodman warranty...in one day alone, we put in 5
compressors...sorry..but thats life with a Goodman.


We both know there are a "Major Qualifications" to make in most of these
cases. How were they installed and maintained! These are the major
determining factors when assessing or drawing any conclusions concerning
the difference in equipment.


Every units been spotless, with the exception of one, and it was a nightmare
in itself. I am the ONLY York/Coleman dealer in my area, and here we find
ONE York airhandler, with a Goodman condensor, and the units been hacked in
from hell and back. Once we got the wiring right, found out who bought the
unit, and as it turned out, this was the ONLY unit they replaced out there,
got the state board involved with competence hearings, etc, we found out the
Goodman 1.5ton unit outside, had bad valves in it...it had not been run in a
while, and that was evidenced by the fact that the valves on it were shut
when they installed the air handler.

Now..here is the bad thing..there are MANY of the old 73-74 era Bryants out
there...old slab condensors that are running like a champ, and I ordered 3
condensate pans today for 3 units that finally started to rust out.
So...all in all, Goodmans track record there, is like anywhere else, they
suck.

And yes, you better believe I can make comparasons on equipment. Lets take a
Lennox air handler for example, and a Goodman. Ok...both have A coils, heat
strips, and electrical hookups....the Lennox has a computer ICB that
controls everything....the stat wires into it, and badda bing, make your
220VAC hookup and you have a unit thats gonna run...York/Luxaire/Coleman,
same thing..Trane..same thing..Carrier..same thing...only some of the
Carriers have two controls...
Then...you open that cheap, flimsy, non painted, textured aluminuim case on
the Goodman/Janitrol....the thermostat wiring is nothing but a cluster of
wires, ran into a snap lock romex holder and each one goes to
SEQUENCERS....holy crap..not a damn relay in the box....not a computer part
showing..nothing...total and complete garbage. I have 7...thats SEVEN of the
fan "relays" as they call them on the vans....we go through about 14 a week
some weeks, on installs that we had nothing to do with. My supplier does not
even charge me for them anymore...used to wait till Goodman kicked back the
authorization codes to pay me, and now, I go in, and he asks every time..how
many?
I have the Goodman parts book....about 5X as thick as anyone elses...funny
for a company that can only claim to be the #2 in volume sales in the
country, they had to do it by selling to anyone with a pocket book that
could afford the stuff...non licenced people...and thats 99% of Goodmans
problem..no control of the units until something breaks, and then, the
homeowner that bought one off the net, suddenly finds out that he, as a non
licenced person, cant handle the warranty. Go figure...
Thats like buying a new car...say...Honda, and taking it in for service,
that you think is warranty, and because you didnt buy it at one particular
dealer, you have no warranty.
Shame, but it IS what is happening.


Most of the working components of most air conditioner's are
manufactured by the same companies. Yes, some makes and models of
compressors and fan motors may be better than others but in my many
years in this industry I have not known of some companies putting
seconds' in their units.

I never said they did, however, the quality of the parts varies.
Another automotive comparason would be Hyundai and Mitsubishi.
Back when I was in automotive, I worked at an auto mall, 7 different lines.
It amazed me how many Mitsubishi owners would ask outloud why why had that
Hyundai crap in the same building, when under the hood of all but the Scoupe
with the Alpha engine, it was identical to the Mitsubishi...trannys,
drivelines...etc..all were Mitsubishi....
And of course, you could not tell a 3000GT owner with the 3.0L V6 that was
the SAME motor used in the Hyundai Sonota...the Dodge Caravan, the
LeBaron...etc...

Back to Goodman...it would be one thing if they used the exact same parts,
but they do not. Condensor fan motors are the cheapest they can find...not
AO Smith, or GE...unless they got a hell of a deal on them..you never know
what kind of crap you will find on one..look at the stamped lids..the fans
are bolted directly to the stamped out lid that is a bitch to get back on
like a Miller, or Nordyne unit...the reversing valves normally have been
brazed in by what looks like bubblegum..
The air handlers are as cheap as you can get, and leak. No real computer
parts on a single unit...unless, of course, its a heat pump, and then you
have that tiny timer for the defrost cycle made in China or somewhere, with
no real name on it...and it might last 3 seasons.

Bottom line...you can put all the first quality parts into a unit, but if
they are bottom of the barrel 1st quality, when you compare the same unit to
a better made unit, its not even 2nd quality, and you know it.


Therefore, if the entire system duct work, airflow, etc., is designed
and operating at its spec standards, I see no reason why one Brand Name
is going to be much superior to another Brand Name. The cabinets were a
bit light and the paint faded on Goodmans,

True, but we are not dealing with a home here...apartment units...return
directly beneath the airhandler, and the duct is proper...believe it or not.
Checking with a pitot, all is good.
And yes, one brand name, when dealing with Goodman Janitrol IS better than
the other.

I did say, the name means little, and the install means all, and I have said
that for years...

BTW...you must not have worked on many Goodmans....the screws start to rust
before we pick them up at the distribution center...and that sir, is a sign
of **** poor work. I can show you many right now, that the lids are stress
cracked from the fan motors...and they are not out of balance...
Its a design issue, and there are better choices out there, that cost less
in some cases.


but if operating to specs
they held up better than many other Brands I worked on.

Only, and I mean the ONLY units I have seen that held up somewhat well, were
in the Deserts of CA...no moisture to speak of, and thus, little rust.

I did hate the
aluminum coils Carrier and others had for years. Retired since September
1992. D-

You mean like Trane STILL has? Nothing like a damn spiney to make ones
day...used to hate the round Carriers...garbage...
I have said this many times...said it again today...Tranes got a GREAT
marketing system....and the equipment is fine, albiet overpriced.
Also, propriatary parts...you cant go fixing a Trane with common parts, as
Amercian Standard had to add this, or change that...and it didnt help it
last one bit, but it sure as hell took a $10 relay and turned it into a $75
relay real fast..


The only real unit that is on the market now, that is too high in my
opinion, but is the only alternative for many people, is a Spacepak.



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Get the Cooling Capacity and Efficiency you Paid for -
http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditio...city-seer.html