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#1
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sewer plug
Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank |
#2
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sewer plug
On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 12:19:35 PM UTC-4, franks wrote:
Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank A "sewer plug" is typically used to cap a clean-out. They look like this: http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-con...12/sewer23.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...e1cdad_300.jpg A "check valve" is used to allow fluids to flow in only one direction. They look like this: http://cdn.balkanplumbing.com/wp-con...ater-valve.jpg http://www2.lsuagcenter.com/domains/.../flapcheck.gif They are 2 completely different animals designed for 2 completely different purposes. |
#3
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sewer plug
On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 12:39:27 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 12:19:35 PM UTC-4, franks wrote: Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank A "sewer plug" is typically used to cap a clean-out. They look like this: http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-con...12/sewer23.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...e1cdad_300.jpg A "check valve" is used to allow fluids to flow in only one direction. They look like this: http://cdn.balkanplumbing.com/wp-con...ater-valve.jpg http://www2.lsuagcenter.com/domains/.../flapcheck.gif They are 2 completely different animals designed for 2 completely different purposes. I think what he means is will plugging the floor drain in his basement that goes to the sewer stop sewage from backing up into the basement, like a backflow valve would. The answer is yes, but it will only stop if from coming out of that one drain, anywhere else, eg a drain for a washing machine, would still be vulnerable. And IDK how you put a sewer plug into a typical floor drain, the ones I've seen were not designed to accept a plug. You might be able to get rubber expansion type plug that would fit. I guess if you can do it and that;s the only vulnerability, it will work. It's not going to cause any pressure damage, there are plenty of other places for the sewage to go. |
#4
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sewer plug
Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank A "sewer plug" is typically used to cap a clean-out. They look like this: http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-con...12/sewer23.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...e1cdad_300.jpg A "check valve" is used to allow fluids to flow in only one direction. They look like this: http://cdn.balkanplumbing.com/wp-con...ater-valve.jpg http://www2.lsuagcenter.com/domains/.../flapcheck.gif They are 2 completely different animals designed for 2 completely different purposes. I think what he means is will plugging the floor drain in his basement that goes to the sewer stop sewage from backing up into the basement, like a backflow valve would. The answer is yes, but it will only stop if from coming out of that one drain, anywhere else, eg a drain for a washing machine, would still be vulnerable. And IDK how you put a sewer plug into a typical floor drain, the ones I've seen were not designed to accept a plug. You might be able to get rubber expansion type plug that would fit. I guess if you can do it and that;s the only vulnerability, it will work. It's not going to cause any pressure damage, there are plenty of other places for the sewage to go. I have heard of basement floors heaving, from plugging the drains .. Rather than a plug - if you could seal a temporary standpipe - the water would just rise in the standpipe to a level slightly higher than the floor ... maybe ? John T. |
#6
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sewer plug
On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 1:50:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank A "sewer plug" is typically used to cap a clean-out. They look like this: http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-con...12/sewer23.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...e1cdad_300.jpg A "check valve" is used to allow fluids to flow in only one direction. They look like this: http://cdn.balkanplumbing.com/wp-con...ater-valve.jpg http://www2.lsuagcenter.com/domains/.../flapcheck.gif They are 2 completely different animals designed for 2 completely different purposes. I think what he means is will plugging the floor drain in his basement that goes to the sewer stop sewage from backing up into the basement, like a backflow valve would. The answer is yes, but it will only stop if from coming out of that one drain, anywhere else, eg a drain for a washing machine, would still be vulnerable. And IDK how you put a sewer plug into a typical floor drain, the ones I've seen were not designed to accept a plug. You might be able to get rubber expansion type plug that would fit. I guess if you can do it and that;s the only vulnerability, it will work. It's not going to cause any pressure damage, there are plenty of other places for the sewage to go. I have heard of basement floors heaving, from plugging the drains .. Rather than a plug - if you could seal a temporary standpipe - the water would just rise in the standpipe to a level slightly higher than the floor ... maybe ? John T. Maybe from plugging drains designed to remove ground water, but not from a floor drain connected to the sewer. For example, if you filled in a sump pump pit with concrete, I can see that doing it. But no way for a floor drain that's connected to the sewer. |
#8
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sewer plug
On 8/19/2016 1:51 PM, wrote:
Will a sewer plug work the same as a Backwater Check Valves? And will it cause water pressure damage to the sewer drain under the basement floor if the drain system gets overloaded from a heavy rain fall. Frank A "sewer plug" is typically used to cap a clean-out. They look like this: http://preparednessadvice.com/wp-con...12/sewer23.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...e1cdad_300.jpg A "check valve" is used to allow fluids to flow in only one direction. They look like this: http://cdn.balkanplumbing.com/wp-con...ater-valve.jpg http://www2.lsuagcenter.com/domains/.../flapcheck.gif They are 2 completely different animals designed for 2 completely different purposes. I think what he means is will plugging the floor drain in his basement that goes to the sewer stop sewage from backing up into the basement, like a backflow valve would. The answer is yes, but it will only stop if from coming out of that one drain, anywhere else, eg a drain for a washing machine, would still be vulnerable. And IDK how you put a sewer plug into a typical floor drain, the ones I've seen were not designed to accept a plug. You might be able to get rubber expansion type plug that would fit. I guess if you can do it and that;s the only vulnerability, it will work. It's not going to cause any pressure damage, there are plenty of other places for the sewage to go. I have heard of basement floors heaving, from plugging the drains .. Rather than a plug - if you could seal a temporary standpipe - the water would just rise in the standpipe to a level slightly higher than the floor ... maybe ? John T. A plug in the floor drain will stop backup water from entering the basement, if the pipes below the floor are completely sealed, like cast iron or plastic. Now, if the pipes are the old clay tile types, the seal is usually only something like cement or mortar. When there is back pressure, each joint will ooze and water will enter the gravel, mud, clay under the floor. Eventually, the floor might try to float, thus causing the previously mentioned heaving. In my previous house of almost 40 years, the pipe was cast iron and the floor drain was plugged. No problems. However, as the sewer system got more overloaded through the years and more illegal gutter/sump pump connections, there were other problems, the sink and the drain for the furnace/humidifier/AC. I put a check valve on both. Unfortunately check valves don't work well for slowly rising back pressure, so during a bad storm, the sink actually filled within 3" of the top. I connected a siphon from the sink to the sump pit to empty the sink and once the water level was down in the sink, there was lots of back pressure to keep the check valve tightly closed. I just put essentially a cork in the furnace drain line, which stopped it. Later, I contacted the town's public works director asking him why? He said there are many illegal hookups (gutters, etc) and others where the storm water just leaks into the sewer system, like the pick holes on the manhole covers. He said one would be no problem, but for 100s of covers it can add up. BTW, they were replacing the covers with leak proof designs. But I digress. The town offered to put in an anti back flow system. It consisted of a float operated check valve located in a manhole they installed in my front yard. When the water rises in the device, a mechanical parallelogram arm closes the valve. The backup water will continue to hold the valve tightly closed. There was also an ejector pump that would force sewage from my house into the (now backing up) sewer system .... I suppose into a neighbor's house without this kind of system. BTW, not trusting all of this, I kept the floor drain stopper in place and also had a 2" ball value in the sink drain, plus another 1" ball valve in the line coming from the furnace. The good news is that I never had to close either of these. |
#9
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sewer plug
On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:12:03 -0400, Art Todesco
wrote: ..... I have heard of basement floors heaving, from plugging the drains .. Rather than a plug - if you could seal a temporary standpipe - the water would just rise in the standpipe to a level slightly higher than the floor ... maybe ? John T. A plug in the floor drain will stop backup water from entering the basement, if the pipes below the floor are completely sealed, like cast iron or plastic. Now, if the pipes are the old clay tile types, the seal is usually only something like cement or mortar. When there is back pressure, each joint will ooze and water will enter the gravel, mud, clay under the floor. Eventually, the floor might try to float, thus causing the previously mentioned heaving. In my previous house of almost 40 years, the pipe was cast iron and the floor drain was plugged. No problems. However, as the sewer system got more overloaded through the years and more illegal gutter/sump pump connections, there were other problems, the sink and the drain for the furnace/humidifier/AC. I put a check valve on both. Unfortunately check valves don't work well for slowly rising back pressure, so during a bad storm, the sink Good ppoint. I hadn't thought of that. actually filled within 3" of the top. I connected a siphon from the sink to the sump pit to empty the sink and once the water level was down in the sink, As you illustrate, the back pressure was rising slowly, but as the water in the sink got deeper, the anti-back pressure was rising too. In my case, I think the maximum water height outside is 6 or 7 feet from the floor of the basement, but it can be less. The bottom of the sink is about 2 feet from the floor but the top of the sink is a little over 3 feet. If the water outside my house is more than 3 1/2 feet above my basement floor, that extra foot isn't enough to keep the water out, but it does negate a foot's worth of pressure, so that's another reason the check valve still doesn't close. there was lots of back pressure to keep the check valve tightly closed. I just put essentially a cork in the furnace drain This is the condensate, right? line, which stopped it. Later, I contacted the town's public works director asking him why? He said there are many illegal hookups (gutters, etc) and others where the storm water just leaks into the sewer system, like the pick holes on the manhole covers. He said one In my case, the septic sewer was built around 1977 and the first sink backup I had was about 1987, so I'm thinking there weren't many leaks by that time. In addition, I don't think anyone had hooked their gutters or sumppumps to the drain. It would be more difficult than running the drain to the curb. Well, the guy two doors away didnt' live as close to the street as 90% of the people here do, and he didn't like tthe sump pump water shooting out onto the sidewalk leading to the front door, so he did route it to the house drain. He was able to sell his house that way, and I think I pointed out to the new owner that when the sink was backing up, pumping the sump water into the same drain would just get more water on the floor. But he or she didn't do anything until they wanted to sell the house and that time the buyer had a house inspection, and it made the seller route the sump as it had been originally. But the pick holes (never heard a name for them before) are definitely a major problem, and I would think the circumference of the manholes aren't perfect either. I too called the county, and he was the one who suggested waterproof manhole covers -- I had never heard of such a thing -- but he also said they wouldntt' help. Since he was still willing to put 2 of them in, I saw no reason not to believe him. But I gave him two locations, the manhole only 30 feet from my yard and ... I couldn't figure out which would be more important, the next manhole downstream, or the one upstream, and I don't know what I said. And for that matter, I'm not sure he did it, buit I plainly couldnt' rely on it anyhow, so I pursued other remedies. would be no problem, but for 100s of covers it can add up. BTW, they In my case, I'm pretty sure the water isn't higher than many of the manholes. After all, they were designed to be higher than the water. The one nearest me sticks up 8 feet from the ground. The stream only goes another 5 or 6 miles upstream and the valley the stream empties is no more than 1/2 mile across, maybe less, so surely the upstream half of the 5 miles doesn't overflow. (Though they built a new road about 3 miles upstream with a bridge over the stream, and the bridge is higher than one who didn't know about the flooding would expect.). were replacing the covers with leak proof designs. But I digress. The town offered to put in an anti back flow system. It consisted of a float operated check valve located in a manhole they installed in my front yard. When the water rises in the device, a mechanical parallelogram arm closes the valve. The backup water will continue to hold the valve tightly closed. So how long does it usually stay closed? There was also an ejector pump that would force sewage from my house into the (now backing up) sewer system Wow. Are you the only ouse which faced a wet basement? Do your neighbors know all that the town did for you? Don't they want it too? I'm not sure I want this but it would have to work for 4 houese all side-by side. One check valve would work if they rerouted 3 drains, but I think they would need 4 ejector pumps. Maybe he was afraid I would ask for all of that so he offered the waterproof manhole covers. ... I suppose into a neighbor's house without this kind of system. BTW, Hmmm. not trusting all of this, I kept the floor drain stopper in place and also had a 2" ball value in the sink drain, plus another 1" ball valve in the line coming from the furnace. The good news is that I never had to close either of these. How does that work? The odds are 2 out of 3 that on a weekday you'll be at work or sleeping when it floods. How are you going to close the valves if you're not there? What about vacations? |
#10
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sewer plug
On 8/20/2016 9:01 PM, Micky wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:12:03 -0400, Art Todesco wrote: ..... I have heard of basement floors heaving, from plugging the drains .. Rather than a plug - if you could seal a temporary standpipe - the water would just rise in the standpipe to a level slightly higher than the floor ... maybe ? John T. A plug in the floor drain will stop backup water from entering the basement, if the pipes below the floor are completely sealed, like cast iron or plastic. Now, if the pipes are the old clay tile types, the seal is usually only something like cement or mortar. When there is back pressure, each joint will ooze and water will enter the gravel, mud, clay under the floor. Eventually, the floor might try to float, thus causing the previously mentioned heaving. In my previous house of almost 40 years, the pipe was cast iron and the floor drain was plugged. No problems. However, as the sewer system got more overloaded through the years and more illegal gutter/sump pump connections, there were other problems, the sink and the drain for the furnace/humidifier/AC. I put a check valve on both. Unfortunately check valves don't work well for slowly rising back pressure, so during a bad storm, the sink Good ppoint. I hadn't thought of that. actually filled within 3" of the top. I connected a siphon from the sink to the sump pit to empty the sink and once the water level was down in the sink, As you illustrate, the back pressure was rising slowly, but as the water in the sink got deeper, the anti-back pressure was rising too. In my case, I think the maximum water height outside is 6 or 7 feet from the floor of the basement, but it can be less. The bottom of the sink is about 2 feet from the floor but the top of the sink is a little over 3 feet. If the water outside my house is more than 3 1/2 feet above my basement floor, that extra foot isn't enough to keep the water out, but it does negate a foot's worth of pressure, so that's another reason the check valve still doesn't close. there was lots of back pressure to keep the check valve tightly closed. I just put essentially a cork in the furnace drain This is the condensate, right? Yes, condensate from the high efficiency furnace and from the AC. There was also a drain from the humidifier (AprilAire). That was on the non sink line. There was another to the sink. line, which stopped it. Later, I contacted the town's public works director asking him why? He said there are many illegal hookups (gutters, etc) and others where the storm water just leaks into the sewer system, like the pick holes on the manhole covers. He said one In my case, the septic sewer was built around 1977 and the first sink backup I had was about 1987, so I'm thinking there weren't many leaks by that time. In addition, I don't think anyone had hooked their gutters or sumppumps to the drain. It would be more difficult than running the drain to the curb. Well, the guy two doors away didnt' live as close to the street as 90% of the people here do, and he didn't like tthe sump pump water shooting out onto the sidewalk leading to the front door, so he did route it to the house drain. He was able to sell his house that way, and I think I pointed out to the new owner that when the sink was backing up, pumping the sump water into the same drain would just get more water on the floor. But he or she didn't do anything until they wanted to sell the house and that time the buyer had a house inspection, and it made the seller route the sump as it had been originally. But the pick holes (never heard a name for them before) are definitely a major problem, and I would think the circumference of the manholes aren't perfect either. I too called the county, and he was the one who suggested waterproof manhole covers -- I had never heard of such a thing -- but he also said they wouldntt' help. Since he was still willing to put 2 of them in, I saw no reason not to believe him. But I gave him two locations, the manhole only 30 feet from my yard and ... I couldn't figure out which would be more important, the next manhole downstream, or the one upstream, and I don't know what I said. And for that matter, I'm not sure he did it, buit I plainly couldnt' rely on it anyhow, so I pursued other remedies. would be no problem, but for 100s of covers it can add up. BTW, they In my case, I'm pretty sure the water isn't higher than many of the manholes. After all, they were designed to be higher than the water. The one nearest me sticks up 8 feet from the ground. The stream only goes another 5 or 6 miles upstream and the valley the stream empties is no more than 1/2 mile across, maybe less, so surely the upstream half of the 5 miles doesn't overflow. (Though they built a new road about 3 miles upstream with a bridge over the stream, and the bridge is higher than one who didn't know about the flooding would expect.). were replacing the covers with leak proof designs. But I digress. The town offered to put in an anti back flow system. It consisted of a float operated check valve located in a manhole they installed in my front yard. When the water rises in the device, a mechanical parallelogram arm closes the valve. The backup water will continue to hold the valve tightly closed. So how long does it usually stay closed? Don't really know, however, it should open when the backup stops. I've seen it stop backing up usually right after the rain stops. There was also an ejector pump that would force sewage from my house into the (now backing up) sewer system Wow. Are you the only ouse which faced a wet basement? Do your neighbors know all that the town did for you? Don't they want it too? I'm not sure I want this but it would have to work for 4 houese all side-by side. One check valve would work if they rerouted 3 drains, but I think they would need 4 ejector pumps. Maybe he was afraid I would ask for all of that so he offered the waterproof manhole covers. ... I suppose into a neighbor's house without this kind of system. BTW, The only house near me with a deep enough basement, was immediately next door. Of course he knew that the town did this for me. He just didn't complain to the right people, or anyone, for all I know. When talking the the public works director, he said there were about 30 or so houses that had problems and were remedied with this system. I guess the squeaky wheel gets oiled. Also, things now are different as the sewer system has been taken over by private company. I'm glad I jumped in when I did. But I really don't care at this point because I sold the house 7 years ago. BTW, I saw the invoice for the anti back flow system and it was around $5K. Hmmm. not trusting all of this, I kept the floor drain stopper in place and also had a 2" ball value in the sink drain, plus another 1" ball valve in the line coming from the furnace. The good news is that I never had to close either of these. How does that work? The odds are 2 out of 3 that on a weekday you'll be at work or sleeping when it floods. How are you going to close the valves if you're not there? What about vacations? Well, I did this before the anti backup system was installed ... just in case. This was an exceptional rain. A friend withing a mile from me, measured 23" over 36 hours. At a mile away, my results may have been lower or even higher. |
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