Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop?

We don't know how old but it looks perfectly white and it is labeled as a
50 gallon water heater with clean readable labels.

Here is what we know.
1. The water heater has been working for more than 5 years.
2. Last night and this morning there was no hot water.
3. The propane tank reads 30% & the kitchen stove lights fine.
4. The outside temperature is 17C which is quite normal.
5. The 15cm hot-air flue is at room temperature (it should be hot).
6. The 1cm hot water cupric line was room temperature (should be hot).
7. All the gas lines appear to be intact (no horse urine egg smell).
8. All the water lines appear to be intact (no ponds of water).
9. Black thermostat dial was on the "B" setting (which is normal).
10. Red push-button off/pilot/on dial was in the "on" position.
11. No flame was visible at the sighting glass when we removed the plate.
12. Sparks were visible when pressing the pushbutton green "igniter".

Following directions, we
A. Turned the black temperature dial to pilot
B. Pressed and turned the red off/pilot/on dial to pilot
C. Repeatedly pressed & released the green piezo igniter
D. The pilot candle lit after a few presses of the igniter
E. We held the red pilot dial down for more than 1 minute
F. We stopped pressing the red pilot dial (it popped up)
G. The pilot candle remained steady
H. We slowly turned the black temperature dial to B
I. The flames circled the bottom of the water heater

And that's where we are at this time.
At this junction, nothing seems wrong.
The heater is in its own closet so there are no rain or drafts.

Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop working?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 11:46:14 AM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop?

We don't know how old but it looks perfectly white and it is labeled as a
50 gallon water heater with clean readable labels.

Here is what we know.
1. The water heater has been working for more than 5 years.
2. Last night and this morning there was no hot water.
3. The propane tank reads 30% & the kitchen stove lights fine.
4. The outside temperature is 17C which is quite normal.
5. The 15cm hot-air flue is at room temperature (it should be hot).
6. The 1cm hot water cupric line was room temperature (should be hot).
7. All the gas lines appear to be intact (no horse urine egg smell).
8. All the water lines appear to be intact (no ponds of water).
9. Black thermostat dial was on the "B" setting (which is normal).
10. Red push-button off/pilot/on dial was in the "on" position.
11. No flame was visible at the sighting glass when we removed the plate.
12. Sparks were visible when pressing the pushbutton green "igniter".

Following directions, we
A. Turned the black temperature dial to pilot
B. Pressed and turned the red off/pilot/on dial to pilot
C. Repeatedly pressed & released the green piezo igniter
D. The pilot candle lit after a few presses of the igniter
E. We held the red pilot dial down for more than 1 minute
F. We stopped pressing the red pilot dial (it popped up)
G. The pilot candle remained steady
H. We slowly turned the black temperature dial to B
I. The flames circled the bottom of the water heater

And that's where we are at this time.
At this junction, nothing seems wrong.
The heater is in its own closet so there are no rain or drafts.

Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop working?



The thermocouple could be going bad and is marginal. It's function is
to generate enough electricity from the heat of the pilot flame to
keep the gas valve open. Or the pilot cam sometimes get blown out if
there is some unusual high wind event that effects it. I assume that when
lit, the pilot flame looks normal? If not, if it's too small, uneven,
etc then there could be some debris in the orifice.

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

The thermocouple could be going bad and is marginal. It's function is
to generate enough electricity from the heat of the pilot flame to
keep the gas valve open. Or the pilot cam sometimes get blown out if
there is some unusual high wind event that effects it. I assume that when
lit, the pilot flame looks normal? If not, if it's too small, uneven,
etc then there could be some debris in the orifice.

I don't know what "normal" looks like, but what you said about a bad
thermocouple is understandable.

Do you know if it's easy to replace?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 08/01/2016 02:06 PM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:

The thermocouple could be going bad and is marginal. It's function is
to generate enough electricity from the heat of the pilot flame to
keep the gas valve open. Or the pilot cam sometimes get blown out if
there is some unusual high wind event that effects it. I assume that when
lit, the pilot flame looks normal? If not, if it's too small, uneven,
etc then there could be some debris in the orifice.

I don't know what "normal" looks like, but what you said about a bad
thermocouple is understandable.

Do you know if it's easy to replace?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

I replaced a thermocouple a few months back, but I can't remember how
long it took. Maybe a couple of hours -- or less. One of local "home
improvement" stores (a regional chain) had the thermocouple in stock;
I'm almost certain it was less than $20.

Perce

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:17:58 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I replaced a thermocouple a few months back, but I can't remember how
long it took. Maybe a couple of hours -- or less. One of local "home
improvement" stores (a regional chain) had the thermocouple in stock;
I'm almost certain it was less than $20.

That is good to know.

How did you know it was the thermocouple?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 2:06:50 PM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

The thermocouple could be going bad and is marginal. It's function is
to generate enough electricity from the heat of the pilot flame to
keep the gas valve open. Or the pilot cam sometimes get blown out if
there is some unusual high wind event that effects it. I assume that when
lit, the pilot flame looks normal? If not, if it's too small, uneven,
etc then there could be some debris in the orifice.

I don't know what "normal" looks like, but what you said about a bad
thermocouple is understandable.

Do you know if it's easy to replace?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On the typical older ones it's easy. Newer ones from the last 5 year
or so, IDK, because those have some kind of flame arrestor now and IDK
how much that might complicate getting at it. The thermocouple fastens
to the burner assembly and has what looks like a small tube that runs
to the gas valve. To replace it, you pull the whole burner assembly
out, vacuum up any rust/debris inside, clean up the burner if needed,
put the new one on and put it back together. 30 min job. I'm sure
there are videos.

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 5:01:29 PM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 15:17:58 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I replaced a thermocouple a few months back, but I can't remember how
long it took. Maybe a couple of hours -- or less. One of local "home
improvement" stores (a regional chain) had the thermocouple in stock;
I'm almost certain it was less than $20.

That is good to know.

How did you know it was the thermocouple?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

On 2016-08-01 9:46 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop?

We don't know how old but it looks perfectly white and it is labeled as a
50 gallon water heater with clean readable labels.

Here is what we know.
1. The water heater has been working for more than 5 years.
2. Last night and this morning there was no hot water.
3. The propane tank reads 30% & the kitchen stove lights fine.
4. The outside temperature is 17C which is quite normal.
5. The 15cm hot-air flue is at room temperature (it should be hot).
6. The 1cm hot water cupric line was room temperature (should be hot).
7. All the gas lines appear to be intact (no horse urine egg smell).
8. All the water lines appear to be intact (no ponds of water).
9. Black thermostat dial was on the "B" setting (which is normal).
10. Red push-button off/pilot/on dial was in the "on" position.
11. No flame was visible at the sighting glass when we removed the plate.
12. Sparks were visible when pressing the pushbutton green "igniter".

Following directions, we
A. Turned the black temperature dial to pilot
B. Pressed and turned the red off/pilot/on dial to pilot
C. Repeatedly pressed & released the green piezo igniter
D. The pilot candle lit after a few presses of the igniter
E. We held the red pilot dial down for more than 1 minute
F. We stopped pressing the red pilot dial (it popped up)
G. The pilot candle remained steady
H. We slowly turned the black temperature dial to B
I. The flames circled the bottom of the water heater

And that's where we are at this time.
At this junction, nothing seems wrong.
The heater is in its own closet so there are no rain or drafts.

Why would a 50-gallon propane water heater just stop working?


I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

On 08/01/2016 05:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I replaced a thermocouple a few months back, but I can't remember how
long it took. Maybe a couple of hours -- or less. One of local "home
improvement" stores (a regional chain) had the thermocouple in stock;
I'm almost certain it was less than $20.

That is good to know.

How did you know it was the thermocouple?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

That's what I did.

Perce

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:27:04 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

That's what I did.

The candle went off again this morning.
The burner may have stopped heating overnight.

How do I know if it's not the igniter?
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html

The water heater label says "State Select" made in Mexico, model GS640HBRSG
(also known I think as GS-640-HBRSG) which is a 40-gallon 37,000BTU heater
made in 2006, of part number 9200455U? (the last digit(s) are obscured).

I'm looking for the manual he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/literature/

But I can only find manuals for "similar" models he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit...sidential-gas/

However, I think this is the thermocouple part number 9000056015:
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html

And I found this video for replacing "a" thermocouple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XruoUVwJowo

It's for a different model heater but I hope it's similar.

I happen to have an older water heater that leaked right next
to it, so I wonder if I can transfer the thermocouple?

The older disconnected water heater was built in 2004 and
started leaking about a year ago so I disconnected it (the two were in
series). It's a Rheem Guardian Fury model number 42V0S-36PF
and is also 40 gallons.

Do people think a thermocouple will fit different heaters?

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 08/02/2016 11:04 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

That's what I did.

The candle went off again this morning.
The burner may have stopped heating overnight.

How do I know if it's not the igniter?
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html

The water heater label says "State Select" made in Mexico, model GS640HBRSG
(also known I think as GS-640-HBRSG) which is a 40-gallon 37,000BTU heater
made in 2006, of part number 9200455U? (the last digit(s) are obscured).

I'm looking for the manual he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/literature/

But I can only find manuals for "similar" models he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit...sidential-gas/

However, I think this is the thermocouple part number 9000056015:
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html

And I found this video for replacing "a" thermocouple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XruoUVwJowo

It's for a different model heater but I hope it's similar.

I happen to have an older water heater that leaked right next
to it, so I wonder if I can transfer the thermocouple?

The older disconnected water heater was built in 2004 and
started leaking about a year ago so I disconnected it (the two were in
series). It's a Rheem Guardian Fury model number 42V0S-36PF
and is also 40 gallons.

Do people think a thermocouple will fit different heaters?

Our "home improvement" store had a few different thermocouples --
certainly different lengths and perhaps even different fittings.

Perce

On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 at 11:04:39 AM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:27:04 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

That's what I did.

The candle went off again this morning.
The burner may have stopped heating overnight.

How do I know if it's not the igniter?
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html


I don't know what that igniter does. I'm guessing that maybe you're WH
has a push button to light the pilot light and that that's what it is?
Otherwise the igniters I've seen on WH have been ones where there is no
pilot and a hot surface igniter is used to directly light the burner.
If it's a push button to light the pilot, then that isn't your problem.



The water heater label says "State Select" made in Mexico, model GS640HBRSG
(also known I think as GS-640-HBRSG) which is a 40-gallon 37,000BTU heater
made in 2006, of part number 9200455U? (the last digit(s) are obscured).

I'm looking for the manual he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/literature/

But I can only find manuals for "similar" models he
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit...sidential-gas/

However, I think this is the thermocouple part number 9000056015:
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part.../0042/153.html


That's a thermocouple, that's for sure. Whether it's the right one,
IDK. There are many online parts stores, if they all come up with
the same part # for your model, then that's it. Once you have the
part #, people sell them on Ebay too.


And I found this video for replacing "a" thermocouple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XruoUVwJowo

It's for a different model heater but I hope it's similar.


It likely is.



I happen to have an older water heater that leaked right next
to it, so I wonder if I can transfer the thermocouple?


If it's the same, sure.



The older disconnected water heater was built in 2004 and
started leaking about a year ago so I disconnected it (the two were in
series). It's a Rheem Guardian Fury model number 42V0S-36PF
and is also 40 gallons.

Do people think a thermocouple will fit different heaters?


Sure, many WHs use the same thermocouple.

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 14:18:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

I think you can measure the output with a VOM meter while it's hot.
You're supposed to get X millivolts. It's been many years since I did
it, but I'm sure there are youtube videos.

I found the test on youtube which I'll run tomorrow looking for 20mv from
the heated up thermocouple.

It could be that the thermocouple is out of alignment with the pilot flame
but I think the thermocouple is working because the pilot light stays lit
when I watch it.

But, overnight, the flame goes out for whatever reason.

I see from the youtube videos that it's pretty easy to remove the entire
burner assembly so I will try that tomorrow when it's daylight also.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 11:17:58 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

Our "home improvement" store had a few different thermocouples --
certainly different lengths and perhaps even different fittings.

I read up on this, and now that I'm a "youtube expert" on thermocouples,
there seem to be a score of different sizes but the main difference seems
to be length (according to the repair people who make the youtube videos).

Someone mentioned to *test* the thermocouple, so tomorrow in the daylight I
will disconnect the thermocouple at the thermostat and clip the positive
DMM lead on it with the other DMM lead connected to ground.

When the pilot light is lit, I am expecting something like 20 millivolts.

At this point, I don't *think* it's the thermocouple, only because the
pilot light stays lit while I watch it - but the flame eventually goes out.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:23:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

I don't know what that igniter does. I'm guessing that maybe you're WH
has a push button to light the pilot light and that that's what it is?
Otherwise the igniters I've seen on WH have been ones where there is no
pilot and a hot surface igniter is used to directly light the burner.
If it's a push button to light the pilot, then that isn't your problem.

I don't know what the igniter does either other than when I press the green
button, the igniter clicks and throws sparks which ignite the pilot candle.

I'm wondering if the problem is the thermocouple though, since the pilot
light stays lit when I manually light it with the piezoelectric igniter.

That must imply the thermocouple has the millivolts to keep the pilot light
lit, at least in the short term. The problem could be something else since
the pilot light will stay lit, at least while I'm watching it.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:12:20 -0600, Idlehands wrote:

I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

This may be my real problem because the pilot light stays lit when I light
it and watch for a few minutes, so, the thermocouple is at least working
for those few minutes.

Where is this "thermal fuse"?
That's what I need to check I think.

Also I will follow the advice to remove the burner assembly, which, after
watching a few youtube videos, seems super easy.

I guess this is stuff I should have done long ago as preventive
maintenance.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 2:47:28 AM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 08:23:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

I don't know what that igniter does. I'm guessing that maybe you're WH
has a push button to light the pilot light and that that's what it is?
Otherwise the igniters I've seen on WH have been ones where there is no
pilot and a hot surface igniter is used to directly light the burner.
If it's a push button to light the pilot, then that isn't your problem.

I don't know what the igniter does either other than when I press the green
button, the igniter clicks and throws sparks which ignite the pilot candle.


Well then that's what it does, it lights the pilot light instead of
having to use a lighter.



I'm wondering if the problem is the thermocouple though, since the pilot
light stays lit when I manually light it with the piezoelectric igniter.


That must imply the thermocouple has the millivolts to keep the pilot light
lit, at least in the short term. The problem could be something else since
the pilot light will stay lit, at least while I'm watching it.

If the TC is on the way out, I would think it could be marginal and later
go out. It's the most likely suspect.

On 2016-08-03 12:47 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:12:20 -0600, Idlehands wrote:

I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

This may be my real problem because the pilot light stays lit when I light
it and watch for a few minutes, so, the thermocouple is at least working
for those few minutes.

Where is this "thermal fuse"?
That's what I need to check I think.

Also I will follow the advice to remove the burner assembly, which, after
watching a few youtube videos, seems super easy.

I guess this is stuff I should have done long ago as preventive
maintenance.



The thermal fuse on my tank is a round silver disk on the side of the
valve body. It self resets when the system cools down and then I have
to light the pilot again. By vacuuming the base of the tank I have yet
to remove the whole burner assembly and takes 5 minutes.



--
The was a old guy named binky
Whose thumb began to smell stinky
He made his mom gasp, pulling it out of his ass
And stuck it in his mouth like a Twinkie.
Anonymous

So why can't you accept that he's an idiot and move on?
Bill Jillians (Formosa'd by Checkmate)

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-03 12:47 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:12:20 -0600, Idlehands wrote:

I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

This may be my real problem because the pilot light stays lit when I light
it and watch for a few minutes, so, the thermocouple is at least working
for those few minutes.

Where is this "thermal fuse"?
That's what I need to check I think.

Also I will follow the advice to remove the burner assembly, which, after
watching a few youtube videos, seems super easy.

I guess this is stuff I should have done long ago as preventive
maintenance.



The thermal fuse on my tank is a round silver disk on the side of the
valve body. It self resets when the system cools down and then I have
to light the pilot again. By vacuuming the base of the tank I have yet
to remove the whole burner assembly and takes 5 minutes.


So, if his tank has one and that's the problem, he should know it,
because he'd be resetting it. So far, no mention of that, only the
pilot going out.

if you have a pilot light and it goes out overnight,

see if there is an adjustment to increase the gas flow to the pilot light and make it a bit larger...

m

On 2016-08-03 6:51 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-03 12:47 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:12:20 -0600, Idlehands wrote:

I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

This may be my real problem because the pilot light stays lit when I light
it and watch for a few minutes, so, the thermocouple is at least working
for those few minutes.

Where is this "thermal fuse"?
That's what I need to check I think.

Also I will follow the advice to remove the burner assembly, which, after
watching a few youtube videos, seems super easy.

I guess this is stuff I should have done long ago as preventive
maintenance.



The thermal fuse on my tank is a round silver disk on the side of the
valve body. It self resets when the system cools down and then I have
to light the pilot again. By vacuuming the base of the tank I have yet
to remove the whole burner assembly and takes 5 minutes.


So, if his tank has one and that's the problem, he should know it,
because he'd be resetting it. So far, no mention of that, only the
pilot going out.


Read again, the thermal fuse is self-resetting, you cannot reset it.
When the thermal fuse triggers all gas stops including the pilot light,
when it cools down I simply lit the pilot again, the burner fires up,
however the lack of airflow caused the chamber to heat to the point of
once again triggering the thermal fuse. Once I cleaned the base of the
tank all is good again.

The link below might explain better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXRwLGJFhc



--
The was a old guy named binky
Whose thumb began to smell stinky
He made his mom gasp, pulling it out of his ass
And stuck it in his mouth like a Twinkie.
Anonymous

So why can't you accept that he's an idiot and move on?
Bill Jillians (Formosa'd by Checkmate)

On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 7:37:52 PM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-03 6:51 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-03 12:47 AM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:12:20 -0600, Idlehands wrote:

I created a vacuum attachment from 1/2" pvc to vacuum the underside of
my HW tank, it seems the reduced air flow overheats the the burner
chamber and the thermal fuse opens and shuts down pilot.

Once the thermal fuse had reset the tank lit normally and then a few
hours later the pilot light would be out again. It's a simple fix.

This may be my real problem because the pilot light stays lit when I light
it and watch for a few minutes, so, the thermocouple is at least working
for those few minutes.

Where is this "thermal fuse"?
That's what I need to check I think.

Also I will follow the advice to remove the burner assembly, which, after
watching a few youtube videos, seems super easy.

I guess this is stuff I should have done long ago as preventive
maintenance.



The thermal fuse on my tank is a round silver disk on the side of the
valve body. It self resets when the system cools down and then I have
to light the pilot again. By vacuuming the base of the tank I have yet
to remove the whole burner assembly and takes 5 minutes.


So, if his tank has one and that's the problem, he should know it,
because he'd be resetting it. So far, no mention of that, only the
pilot going out.


Read again, the thermal fuse is self-resetting, you cannot reset it.

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.




When the thermal fuse triggers all gas stops including the pilot light,
when it cools down I simply lit the pilot again, the burner fires up,
however the lack of airflow caused the chamber to heat to the point of
once again triggering the thermal fuse. Once I cleaned the base of the
tank all is good again.

The link below might explain better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXRwLGJFhc



--
The was a old guy named binky
Whose thumb began to smell stinky
He made his mom gasp, pulling it out of his ass
And stuck it in his mouth like a Twinkie.
Anonymous

So why can't you accept that he's an idiot and move on?
Bill Jillians (Formosa'd by Checkmate)

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.

I am still at a loss for debug.

Here is a picture taken just now:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CYmIjq.jpg

1. The flames are on top
2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

I don't think the thermocouple is the problem only because when I'm
watching, the pilot light stays lit, the burner stays lit, and everything
works fine.

It's only over the period of a day that the pilot light goes out.

I do understand that the thermocouple could be intermittent bad and that
they're cheap. But I generally try to debug bad parts by understanding
them.

I tried to remove the old thermocouple from the older disconnected water
heater but it broke when I removed it, so, I'm a little afraid of removing
the thermocouple on the intermittent heater which is connected.

One test I need to run is to check the millivolts on the thermocouple,
which I will try soon (but I don't want to break the thermocouple just
testing it).

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Do you have any draft where heater is located ???

"Tatsuki Takahashi" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.

I am still at a loss for debug.

Here is a picture taken just now:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CYmIjq.jpg

1. The flames are on top
2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

I don't think the thermocouple is the problem only because when I'm
watching, the pilot light stays lit, the burner stays lit, and everything
works fine.

It's only over the period of a day that the pilot light goes out.

I do understand that the thermocouple could be intermittent bad and that
they're cheap. But I generally try to debug bad parts by understanding
them.

I tried to remove the old thermocouple from the older disconnected water
heater but it broke when I removed it, so, I'm a little afraid of removing
the thermocouple on the intermittent heater which is connected.

One test I need to run is to check the millivolts on the thermocouple,
which I will try soon (but I don't want to break the thermocouple just
testing it).

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 10:58:18 PM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.

I am still at a loss for debug.

Here is a picture taken just now:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CYmIjq.jpg


Hard to tell for sure, but the end of that TC looks like it may
have crud on it, ie the glowing, uneven bright spots? Have you
had the burner out to look at it?



1. The flames are on top
2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

I don't think the thermocouple is the problem only because when I'm
watching, the pilot light stays lit, the burner stays lit, and everything
works fine.

It's only over the period of a day that the pilot light goes out.

I do understand that the thermocouple could be intermittent bad and that
they're cheap. But I generally try to debug bad parts by understanding
them.


I don't know what else may or not be involved in your unit, but
in the WHs I've worked with, it could only be:

Thermocouple
Gas Valve
Something blowing the pilot out

TC is cheap.

Idlehands says his has a self-resetting thermal over temp cuttoff
built into the
gas valve. At least part of it is in the gas valve, not sure if
there is more to it than that, probably not. Gas valve is more
expensive and less likely. If yours has one, did you try turning
the temp all the way down and see if it stays lit? Even if it
doesn't have that safety, turning the gas valve off over night,
but leaving the pilot lit might be an interesting test, to see
if it still goes out.

Something blowing the pilot out every day doesn't sound likely.


I tried to remove the old thermocouple from the older disconnected water
heater but it broke when I removed it, so, I'm a little afraid of removing
the thermocouple on the intermittent heater which is connected.

One test I need to run is to check the millivolts on the thermocouple,
which I will try soon (but I don't want to break the thermocouple just
testing it).

On 2016-08-04 8:57 PM, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.

I am still at a loss for debug.

Here is a picture taken just now:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CYmIjq.jpg

1. The flames are on top
2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

I don't think the thermocouple is the problem only because when I'm
watching, the pilot light stays lit, the burner stays lit, and everything
works fine.

It's only over the period of a day that the pilot light goes out.

I do understand that the thermocouple could be intermittent bad and that
they're cheap. But I generally try to debug bad parts by understanding
them.

I tried to remove the old thermocouple from the older disconnected water
heater but it broke when I removed it, so, I'm a little afraid of removing
the thermocouple on the intermittent heater which is connected.

One test I need to run is to check the millivolts on the thermocouple,
which I will try soon (but I don't want to break the thermocouple just
testing it).


In thirty years of working in electronics I have never "debugged" a
device. I have "debugged" software and used "troubleshooting" skills on
devices. Okay now that is off my chest....

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year



--

2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

that doesn't sound right to me

the flame from the pilot should be heating the thermocouple.
m

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?

Is this your couch? ;-)

http://www.ohiobasementsystems.com/c...-furniture.jpg

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 9:27:05 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?


I agree. I have decades of experience with gas WHs too. I had
one thermocouple go bad, never had to clean one. I recently
helped a friend who has a power vent one though, where his would
not ignite because some rust had dropped down on the igniter.
That one was about 6 years old and needed some vacuuming
to get it working again. I agree that it;s possible something
is fouling the TC, that pic seems like there could be some rust
on it, where it's glowing differently. And just to be clear,
what we're all talking about is cleaning the burner area,
not the bottom of the tank, at least I am. I couldn't even
see the bottom of my tanks.

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 10:58:18 PM UTC-4, Tatsuki Takahashi wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 05:37:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

Well, that makes debugging it harder, that's for sure. I guess he
could try setting the temp to the lowest possible and see what happens.
If it;s this thermal safety, then you would think at the lower temp
it probably wouldn't trip, unless the main thermostat is kaput and
it is really overheating. But if that were happening, we'd probably
have heard something about unusually hot water by now.

I am still at a loss for debug.

Here is a picture taken just now:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CYmIjq.jpg

1. The flames are on top
2. The pilot candle is actually above the thermocouple
3. The thermocouple is below the pilot candle

I don't think the thermocouple is the problem only because when I'm
watching, the pilot light stays lit, the burner stays lit, and everything
works fine.

It's only over the period of a day that the pilot light goes out.

I do understand that the thermocouple could be intermittent bad and that
they're cheap. But I generally try to debug bad parts by understanding
them.

I tried to remove the old thermocouple from the older disconnected water
heater but it broke when I removed it, so, I'm a little afraid of removing
the thermocouple on the intermittent heater which is connected.

One test I need to run is to check the millivolts on the thermocouple,
which I will try soon (but I don't want to break the thermocouple just
testing it).

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

i repair office equiptement for a living
.....
its best to just replace cheap parts that are possibly bad......

so you check the thermocouple with a meter.....

do you really want to sit there all day monitoring it all day.???. its output may drop over time. grand waste of time

just replace the thermocouple and move on to the next thing that needs attention

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:22:03 -0700, Tony944 wrote:

Do you have any draft where heater is located ???

The water heater is on a pedestal and is in a closet where there can't be a
draft. I looked to see if it was dirty inside, but it looks pretty clean
also.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 2016-08-05 7:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?

Is this your couch? ;-)

http://www.ohiobasementsystems.com/c...-furniture.jpg


It's in the laundry room next to the furnace, laugh all you want but
instead of chasing a phantom thermocouple issue this solves quickly and
neatly.

Oh and no my couch does not match your home pictures.


--
The was a old guy named binky
Whose thumb began to smell stinky
He made his mom gasp, pulling it out of his ass
And stuck it in his mouth like a Twinkie.
Anonymous

So why can't you accept that he's an idiot and move on?
Bill Jillians (Formosa'd by Checkmate)

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 11:32:23 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-05 7:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?

Is this your couch? ;-)

http://www.ohiobasementsystems.com/c...-furniture.jpg


It's in the laundry room next to the furnace, laugh all you want but
instead of chasing a phantom thermocouple issue this solves quickly and
neatly.

Oh and no my couch does not match your home pictures.

Nobody is laughing. We're asking a serious question.

It makes no sense *to us* that the underside of a WH should need to be
vacuumed every 6 months in order to prevent the thermal fuse from opening.
Again, it makes no sense *to us*. That is why I asked.

Your situation is highly unusual - based on our experience - and in the
spirit of a.h.r. we would like to understand the situation.

How much debris do you actually end up cleaning out every 6 months?

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 12:23:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 11:32:23 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-05 7:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?

Is this your couch? ;-)

http://www.ohiobasementsystems.com/c...-furniture.jpg


It's in the laundry room next to the furnace, laugh all you want but
instead of chasing a phantom thermocouple issue this solves quickly and
neatly.

Oh and no my couch does not match your home pictures.

Nobody is laughing. We're asking a serious question.

It makes no sense *to us* that the underside of a WH should need to be
vacuumed every 6 months in order to prevent the thermal fuse from opening.
Again, it makes no sense *to us*. That is why I asked.

Your situation is highly unusual - based on our experience - and in the
spirit of a.h.r. we would like to understand the situation.

How much debris do you actually end up cleaning out every 6 months?

better to use compressed air to clean stuff. vacuuming doesnt get out all the crud compressed air does.

many years ago i had my old furnace cleaned. after the tech vacuumned every thing out.

i had him blow out the remaining dust with my stationary compressor.

amazing how much dirt came out.

the tech was very concerned the dust would make me mad. i said its my house and dust

On 2016-08-06 10:23 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 11:32:23 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:
On 2016-08-05 7:27 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 8:43:41 AM UTC-4, Idlehands wrote:

Did you try cleaning out the bottom of your tank? This simple task
solved the exact same issue with my tank. My symptoms were not hot
water, light pilot, tank would heat up, then cool down again. Vacuum
the bottom of the tank, light pilot, stays lit.

I have had to do this twice this year


That sure sounds unusual. I have never heard of anyone having to vacuum
the underside of a WH *twice a year* in order to keep it lit.

What kind of environment is this WH in?

Is this your couch? ;-)

http://www.ohiobasementsystems.com/c...-furniture.jpg


It's in the laundry room next to the furnace, laugh all you want but
instead of chasing a phantom thermocouple issue this solves quickly and
neatly.

Oh and no my couch does not match your home pictures.

Nobody is laughing. We're asking a serious question.

It makes no sense *to us* that the underside of a WH should need to be
vacuumed every 6 months in order to prevent the thermal fuse from opening.
Again, it makes no sense *to us*. That is why I asked.

Your situation is highly unusual - based on our experience - and in the
spirit of a.h.r. we would like to understand the situation.

How much debris do you actually end up cleaning out every 6 months?


It's not a an "every six month" issue but it's cropped up twice now, I
am not vacuuming up a lot of dust or material, at least you don't hear
tons of material rattling through the shop vac.

The first time it happened that the pilot wouldn't stay lit I found out
that you have to change the entire burner assembly, not just a thermal
couple, welcome to progress. I searched for solutions and found about
about the vacuum idea. It worked and lasted over a year. Just recently
I woke up to no hot water again. Vacuumed it again and now it's running
again.

This video describes the issue with the same model, although I did not
replace the burner assembly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M_NNby9cDk


--

Tatsuki Takahashi writes:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:22:03 -0700, Tony944 wrote:

Do you have any draft where heater is located ???

The water heater is on a pedestal and is in a closet where there can't be a
draft. I looked to see if it was dirty inside, but it looks pretty clean
also.

There must be some source of fresh air for combustion in the
closet, which implies that a draft is not impossible.

On 08/08/2016 10:56 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Tatsuki writes:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 22:22:03 -0700, Tony944 wrote:

Do you have any draft where heater is located ???

The water heater is on a pedestal and is in a closet where there can't be a
draft. I looked to see if it was dirty inside, but it looks pretty clean
also.

There must be some source of fresh air for combustion in the
closet, which implies that a draft is not impossible.

It's also possible for the exit flue to have excessive draw and blow out
a pilot, particularly if the wind blows strongly. This is quite
dependent upon individual installations and the design/configuration of
the specific water heater--some are much more susceptible than others.

I've a little space heater in the wellhouse to keep from freezing; have
to check it if there's a "big blow" as it occurs for it on a moderately
frequent basis. Of course, this is an area where wind is the norm...and
we think 20-25 mph is just a gentle breeze...

--

---
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