On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:30:51 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/24/2016 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:56 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 5:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/24/2016 02:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Small sheet of thin plywood/masonite on a pole/2x2 will do in a
pinch. Goal is to be able to get a little at a time off as
moving a *lot* in that body position is strenuous.

It goes without saying* but if you're working off a ladder, moving the
snow
directly above you isn't a good idea.

* in the northern states. A Maryland native might be completely
clueless about
snow.

It snows in MD.

I'm not sure most folks know much of *anything*!

A friend wasn't feeling well and drove herself to the hospital
last week. She was found by a cop, in her car, on the side
of the road -- having suffered a major stroke.

I'm sure her kids are happy they won't have to pay that AMBULANCE
bill out of her estate...


We found out that ambulance service was covered by an insurance policy
we paid for by paying a little extra on our electric bill every month
for the last umpteen years. We'd forgotten we had that coverage, and
when I ended up being taken by ambulance twice to the hospital last year
we were told don't worry about the bill - we're covered.


My point was: she worried about "a few dollars" (regardless of how MANY
dollars it may have been -- surely not much given what it costs to walk
into the ER, where she was headed!) and it cost her her life.

Not very sound reasoning.

She may not have thought she needed an ambulance.

I had a pain in my gut 25 years ago. Called a neighbor to take me to
the ER (only a mile away). Gave me pain killer. Didn't work. Gave
me morphine. It worked. Went to waiting room and asked person to
call me a cab. Fell asleep on the chairs, woke up in the morning and
learned the cab had come, they'd called for me, but I was asleep, so
they left. Walked home.

A couple years later, same pain. Drove myself to ER Again x-ray,
maybe a kidney stone, but couldn't really see one. Went to toilet
off exam room. Fell asleep on toilet. Woke up, pain gone. Drove
home.

A couple years later, third time. Stayed home. Lay on bathroom
floor in agony. Fell asleep. Woke up. Pain gone. I don't know
how long I was asleep each time.

Filtered my urine for days each time, never did find a stone in an
xray or in real life or hear the clink when it hits the toilet, but
they are common with people in their 40's and I outgrew my 40's.


Another time, more seriously ill. Wanted a "better" hospital. Took a
taxi to the ER. Got a ride home a few days later.

Went other times too, after bladder biopsy, bladder stone crushing.
After I hit my brow with the car door.

I've never waited more than an hour at the ER, and often only ten
minutes. Once even on a Saturday night only 10 minutes when there
are supposed to be a bunch of drunks and crimes.

But one time, after the bladder stone crushing, at the first ER, they
took blood and came a few minutes later to say I was seriously low on
calcium and potassium (I think those were the two.) They gave me
one big pill of each to take and said I should stay in the hospital.
Probably Saturday night at 10PM. I can't sleep on my back and with
tubes can't sleep on stomach. Can't sleep well on side. 4AM a nurse
has taken blood again and says my Ca and K are normal and that it's
impossible that the two pills I took had such an effect so quickly. So
earlier, "they must have attributed someone else's blood test to
me!!!"

So now I want to leave but another nurse says, Not until there's no
blood coming out of the bladder lavage (through a 3-tubed catheter
(one for inflating the balloon inside with water, one for water in,
and one for liquid out). I tell him I just had a biopsy so of course
there is blood and there will be for days. I finally go to the
bathroom and for some reason (I didn't do it!, but I should have), the
catheter falls out, and I lie and tell them that I was able to urinate
normally. Doctor comes in in the morning, a couple hourse later, and
I lie to him too. Get to go home around 9 in the morning, sleep all
day. By 6, in pain again because I can't pee, despite what I said. Go
back to ER. This time I wait 10 minutes, a pretty girl about 20 puts
in a new catheter, and I get to go home after 30 minutes total. No
one tried to make me stay overnight. I asked her, Does your
boyfriend know what you do? She said, Not exactly.

On 1/25/2016 7:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/25/2016 4:41 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I am betting it's the cost. Anyone whose seen a recent ambulance bills
would be wary of the cost, even with insurance.

Then why bother with the ER instead of "urgent care" or her PCP?

It's just bad reasoning.

Neighbor's wife on some heavy duty meds: "Do not drive while you
are on this Rx!"

Ah, but wifey doesn't like waiting around for the FREE "handy car"
service that the city offers. So, she's out on the road every
chance she gets (instead of planning her travels so she can take
advantage of said service -- usually very punctual *if* you
SCHEDULE a pickup; but, can't just say "come get me, NOW!")

Husband thinks nothing of this -- good Conservative: Rules
are for the OTHER guys!

I casually commented: "What will you do if she gets in a wreck
and the MD testifies that he told her not to drive? What will
you do if she TAKES A LIFE in the process? Just shrug? What
will you do if they take your *house* in the lawsuit that follows?"

As I said, upthread: people have poor reasoning/decision making skills.


What a typo. I think you mean liberal, who thinks
rules are for the other guys. Email server, for
one example. Many more examples out there.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Robert Green posted for all of us...



"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I am betting it's the cost. Anyone whose seen a recent ambulance bills
would be wary of the cost, even with insurance.

Woman in question had a habit of avoiding ambulance rides.
I don't know if it was the cost or the embarassment (having
neighbors seeing you carted off) or just not wanting to
have "strangers" in her house (another embarassment?).

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/he...ance-bill.html

Kira Milas has no idea who called 911, summoning an ambulance filled with
emergency medical technicians. Ms. Milas, 23, was working as a swim
instructor for the summer and had swum into the side of the pool, breaking
three teeth. Skaken, she accepted the ambulance ride to Scripps Memorial
Hospital in La Jolla, Calif. The paramedics applied a neck brace as a
precaution.

A week later she received a bill for the 15-minute trip: $1,772.42. Though
her employer?s workers? compensation will cover the bill, she still was
stunned at the charge. ?We only drove nine miles and it was a
non-life-threatening injury,? she said in a phone interview. ?I needed
absolutely no emergency treatment.?

Medicare, the insurance program for the elderly, does tabulate its numbers
and has become alarmed at its fast-rising expenditures for ambulance rides:
nearly $6 billion a year, up from just $2 billion in 2002 . . .

Some [insurers] will grant coverage if the destination was an emergency
room, regardless of the patient?s status, but others may require admittance
to the hospital as evidence that the condition was serious . . .

But when an ambulance arrives, sick patients or injured people like Ms.
Milas, often feel they have little choice but to get in, unaware of the
potential price tag . . .

Some companies even charge hundreds of dollars extra if a friend or relative
rides along with an injured patients.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

I wish the dispatcher & medics could be mind readers. Then they could have
sent a guy on a horse.

My crystal ball says: broken teeth, skull / neck / back fracture, drowning,
aed / cpr, immobization.

Wonder how many VOLUNTEERS they have? Not many I bet. Working for $20/hr
part time doesn't pay the bills so you have to work a couple of places.

I could go on but like everything else it takes money.

--
Tekkie

On 1/26/2016 3:07 AM, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:30:51 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/24/2016 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:56 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 5:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/24/2016 02:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Small sheet of thin plywood/masonite on a pole/2x2 will do in a
pinch. Goal is to be able to get a little at a time off as
moving a *lot* in that body position is strenuous.

It goes without saying* but if you're working off a ladder, moving the
snow
directly above you isn't a good idea.

* in the northern states. A Maryland native might be completely
clueless about
snow.

It snows in MD.

I'm not sure most folks know much of *anything*!

A friend wasn't feeling well and drove herself to the hospital
last week. She was found by a cop, in her car, on the side
of the road -- having suffered a major stroke.

I'm sure her kids are happy they won't have to pay that AMBULANCE
bill out of her estate...


We found out that ambulance service was covered by an insurance policy
we paid for by paying a little extra on our electric bill every month
for the last umpteen years. We'd forgotten we had that coverage, and
when I ended up being taken by ambulance twice to the hospital last year
we were told don't worry about the bill - we're covered.


My point was: she worried about "a few dollars" (regardless of how MANY
dollars it may have been -- surely not much given what it costs to walk
into the ER, where she was headed!) and it cost her her life.

Not very sound reasoning.

She may not have thought she needed an ambulance.

I had a pain in my gut 25 years ago. Called a neighbor to take me to
the ER (only a mile away). Gave me pain killer. Didn't work. Gave
me morphine. It worked. Went to waiting room and asked person to
call me a cab. Fell asleep on the chairs, woke up in the morning and
learned the cab had come, they'd called for me, but I was asleep, so
they left. Walked home.

A couple years later, same pain. Drove myself to ER Again x-ray,
maybe a kidney stone, but couldn't really see one. Went to toilet
off exam room. Fell asleep on toilet. Woke up, pain gone. Drove
home.

[...]
day. By 6, in pain again because I can't pee, despite what I said. Go
back to ER. This time I wait 10 minutes, a pretty girl about 20 puts
in a new catheter, and I get to go home after 30 minutes total. No
one tried to make me stay overnight. I asked her, Does your
boyfriend know what you do? She said, Not exactly.



I sure can understand going through the sort of pain you mentioned.

Hope you don't have to deal with that these days.

--
Maggie

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:14:39 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/26/2016 3:07 AM, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:30:51 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/24/2016 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:56 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 5:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/24/2016 02:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Small sheet of thin plywood/masonite on a pole/2x2 will do in a
pinch. Goal is to be able to get a little at a time off as
moving a *lot* in that body position is strenuous.

It goes without saying* but if you're working off a ladder, moving the
snow
directly above you isn't a good idea.

* in the northern states. A Maryland native might be completely
clueless about
snow.

It snows in MD.

I'm not sure most folks know much of *anything*!

A friend wasn't feeling well and drove herself to the hospital
last week. She was found by a cop, in her car, on the side
of the road -- having suffered a major stroke.

I'm sure her kids are happy they won't have to pay that AMBULANCE
bill out of her estate...


We found out that ambulance service was covered by an insurance policy
we paid for by paying a little extra on our electric bill every month
for the last umpteen years. We'd forgotten we had that coverage, and
when I ended up being taken by ambulance twice to the hospital last year
we were told don't worry about the bill - we're covered.


My point was: she worried about "a few dollars" (regardless of how MANY
dollars it may have been -- surely not much given what it costs to walk
into the ER, where she was headed!) and it cost her her life.

Not very sound reasoning.

She may not have thought she needed an ambulance.

I had a pain in my gut 25 years ago. Called a neighbor to take me to
the ER (only a mile away). Gave me pain killer. Didn't work. Gave
me morphine. It worked. Went to waiting room and asked person to
call me a cab. Fell asleep on the chairs, woke up in the morning and
learned the cab had come, they'd called for me, but I was asleep, so
they left. Walked home.

A couple years later, same pain. Drove myself to ER Again x-ray,
maybe a kidney stone, but couldn't really see one. Went to toilet
off exam room. Fell asleep on toilet. Woke up, pain gone. Drove
home.

[...]
day. By 6, in pain again because I can't pee, despite what I said. Go
back to ER. This time I wait 10 minutes, a pretty girl about 20 puts
in a new catheter, and I get to go home after 30 minutes total. No
one tried to make me stay overnight. I asked her, Does your
boyfriend know what you do? She said, Not exactly.



I sure can understand going through the sort of pain you mentioned.

Hope you don't have to deal with that these days.

I"m a little confused about details, but the urologist left me in pain
for a whole week, I think it was the following week, while he said he
was trying to arrange the equipment to break up a bladder stone I had.
I told him, "I'll go wherever the equipment is." Also during that
episode, the office refused to take a phone message. HIIPA, or HIPPA,
or HIPAA rules, even though no other doctor's office is giving me this
baloney. So I faxed them with a statement in big letters at the "I
WAIVE ALL HIPAA RIGHTS."

But now I'm okay and I've been okay for over a year, wrt urology.

OTOH, because of the hyperparathyroidism, I got osteoporosis, and an
endocrinologist put me on generic Fosamax. What she didn't do is tell
me that the side effect lasts 10 to 20 to 50 years after one takes it
and that is the possibility of osteonecrosis of the jaw if you have
dental extractions or implants, and conceivably some other dental
work. All she would have had to do is ask if I needed dental work,
and I knew that eventually I would need some. I could have had it a
year ago with no risk of OSJ, but now I'm screwed and she screwed me.
OSJ has no cure btw, only treatment.

She says the odds I'll get it are only 1/200. They've recalled
what, 10 million, or is it 50 million Tecata airbags just because of
10 deaths, and I'm supposed to be comforted by 1/200, when I could
have had my dental work before the Fosamax.

The drug maker and she say that stopping the drug won't have an
effect, but one doctor and one dentist I found online say otherwise.
So I stopped 5 weeks ago. The dentist, one crummy dentist with what
seems like a public service webpage (I told him I would go to him if
he weent' in California and me on the east coast. He's not trying to
get my business) gave me a marker which he says is a predictor of who
will get OSJ and who won't get it. NTX iirc. Under 100 bad, 100-150
marginal, 150 to 700 good. Mine was 154, but I'm going to wait
another 2 or 3 months and hope it goes up some more, and hope it
matters. So the dental work will be 4 months later than I would have
wanted.

I'm still not sure if as a man I needed any drug for osteoporosis.
When a post-menapausal woman gets it , they give hormone replacement
therapy but maybe that's not the whole ball of wax. When my
parathyroid overworked, they cut out the bad one (out of 4) and now
I'm totally normal wrt that. I would think the osteoporosis would
reverse by itself, but I have to look into that.

I was so diligent about choosing a good surgeon but didnt' think the
endorcrinologist needed second guessing. Stupid me. (Still don't
know for sure a different endocrinologist would have done differently,
but this is just one of 6 places she mislead me or made a mistake, in
only one year. She's only about 28 years old, just a year out of
training, and I figured she'd have the most recent information.

"Micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

OTOH, because of the hyperparathyroidism, I got osteoporosis, and an
endocrinologist put me on generic Fosamax. What she didn't do is tell
me that the side effect lasts 10 to 20 to 50 years after one takes it
and that is the possibility of osteonecrosis of the jaw if you have
dental extractions or implants, and conceivably some other dental
work.

That happened to my mom and she died of cancer shortly after (not that I
want to scare you or anything). I blame pseudo-medico Sally Fields (aka
"Gidget" and "The Flying Nun") who was pushing Fosamax like crazy a few
years ago.

All she would have had to do is ask if I needed dental work,
and I knew that eventually I would need some. I could have had it a
year ago with no risk of OSJ, but now I'm screwed and she screwed me.
OSJ has no cure btw, only treatment.

I feel for you, man, you got screwed by MDs just like my Mom.

She says the odds I'll get it are only 1/200.

Those are crappy odds for you. I wonder what kind of thought processes they
use. My research has revealed time and time again that doctors downplay or
almost complete ignore side effects reported by their patients as some sort
of hypochondria. This is especially true of statins which doctors give out
like candy and which give some people incredible fatigue and joint pains.

They've recalled
what, 10 million, or is it 50 million Tecata airbags just because of
10 deaths, and I'm supposed to be comforted by 1/200, when I could
have had my dental work before the Fosamax.

That sort of omission might lead me to file a lawsuit just so that the
importance of what was done to you is made clear. It's Takata, FWIW.

http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html

I'm still not sure if as a man I needed any drug for osteoporosis.

Did you get a bone density scan? That's how you can tell but they have now
created a new disease called ostopenia which they claim is pre-osteoporosis.
What about vitamin D and calcium supplements? That's a safer way to keep up
bone density without the horrible side effects that Fosamax (and it's
cousin, Boneva - aptly named because patients can say "I got boned by
Boneva!")

I was so diligent about choosing a good surgeon but didnt' think the
endorcrinologist needed second guessing. Stupid me. (Still don't
know for sure a different endocrinologist would have done differently,
but this is just one of 6 places she mislead me or made a mistake, in
only one year.

Time to pull the ripcord. I tend to look for MDs about 10 to 15 years
younger than I am so they won't retire out from under me when I have a
serious problem. I've used to pick older MDs but 3 of them retired in the
same year and left me in a lurch. One of the disappeared 25 years of
medical records, too. )-:

She's only about 28 years old, just a year out of
training, and I figured she'd have the most recent information.

But very little clinical experience which is where doctors learn what they
were taught often doesn't coincide with reality. At her age she believes in
big Pharma and everything the detail men tell her.

I have heard good things about Maryland Endocrine in Columbia. That's
pretty close to you, isn't it? I can get you the names of some good ones
that have worked with me and my wife's thyroid problems. One of them is a
world-renowned thryoid expert, IIRC.

--
Bobby G.

On 1/27/2016 3:37 PM, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:14:39 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/26/2016 3:07 AM, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:30:51 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 1/24/2016 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:56 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 1/24/2016 9:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 1/24/2016 5:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 01/24/2016 02:28 PM, Don Y wrote:
Small sheet of thin plywood/masonite on a pole/2x2 will do in a
pinch. Goal is to be able to get a little at a time off as
moving a *lot* in that body position is strenuous.

It goes without saying* but if you're working off a ladder, moving the
snow
directly above you isn't a good idea.

* in the northern states. A Maryland native might be completely
clueless about
snow.

It snows in MD.

I'm not sure most folks know much of *anything*!

A friend wasn't feeling well and drove herself to the hospital
last week. She was found by a cop, in her car, on the side
of the road -- having suffered a major stroke.

I'm sure her kids are happy they won't have to pay that AMBULANCE
bill out of her estate...


We found out that ambulance service was covered by an insurance policy
we paid for by paying a little extra on our electric bill every month
for the last umpteen years. We'd forgotten we had that coverage, and
when I ended up being taken by ambulance twice to the hospital last year
we were told don't worry about the bill - we're covered.


My point was: she worried about "a few dollars" (regardless of how MANY
dollars it may have been -- surely not much given what it costs to walk
into the ER, where she was headed!) and it cost her her life.

Not very sound reasoning.

She may not have thought she needed an ambulance.

I had a pain in my gut 25 years ago. Called a neighbor to take me to
the ER (only a mile away). Gave me pain killer. Didn't work. Gave
me morphine. It worked. Went to waiting room and asked person to
call me a cab. Fell asleep on the chairs, woke up in the morning and
learned the cab had come, they'd called for me, but I was asleep, so
they left. Walked home.

A couple years later, same pain. Drove myself to ER Again x-ray,
maybe a kidney stone, but couldn't really see one. Went to toilet
off exam room. Fell asleep on toilet. Woke up, pain gone. Drove
home.

[...]
day. By 6, in pain again because I can't pee, despite what I said. Go
back to ER. This time I wait 10 minutes, a pretty girl about 20 puts
in a new catheter, and I get to go home after 30 minutes total. No
one tried to make me stay overnight. I asked her, Does your
boyfriend know what you do? She said, Not exactly.



I sure can understand going through the sort of pain you mentioned.

Hope you don't have to deal with that these days.

I"m a little confused about details, but the urologist left me in pain
for a whole week, I think it was the following week, while he said he
was trying to arrange the equipment to break up a bladder stone I had.
I told him, "I'll go wherever the equipment is." Also during that
episode, the office refused to take a phone message. HIIPA, or HIPPA,
or HIPAA rules, even though no other doctor's office is giving me this
baloney. So I faxed them with a statement in big letters at the "I
WAIVE ALL HIPAA RIGHTS."

But now I'm okay and I've been okay for over a year, wrt urology.

OTOH, because of the hyperparathyroidism, I got osteoporosis, and an
endocrinologist put me on generic Fosamax. What she didn't do is tell
me that the side effect lasts 10 to 20 to 50 years after one takes it
and that is the possibility of osteonecrosis of the jaw if you have
dental extractions or implants, and conceivably some other dental
work. All she would have had to do is ask if I needed dental work,
and I knew that eventually I would need some. I could have had it a
year ago with no risk of OSJ, but now I'm screwed and she screwed me.
OSJ has no cure btw, only treatment.

She says the odds I'll get it are only 1/200. They've recalled
what, 10 million, or is it 50 million Tecata airbags just because of
10 deaths, and I'm supposed to be comforted by 1/200, when I could
have had my dental work before the Fosamax.

The drug maker and she say that stopping the drug won't have an
effect, but one doctor and one dentist I found online say otherwise.
So I stopped 5 weeks ago. The dentist, one crummy dentist with what
seems like a public service webpage (I told him I would go to him if
he weent' in California and me on the east coast. He's not trying to
get my business) gave me a marker which he says is a predictor of who
will get OSJ and who won't get it. NTX iirc. Under 100 bad, 100-150
marginal, 150 to 700 good. Mine was 154, but I'm going to wait
another 2 or 3 months and hope it goes up some more, and hope it
matters. So the dental work will be 4 months later than I would have
wanted.

I'm still not sure if as a man I needed any drug for osteoporosis.
When a post-menapausal woman gets it , they give hormone replacement
therapy but maybe that's not the whole ball of wax. When my
parathyroid overworked, they cut out the bad one (out of 4) and now
I'm totally normal wrt that. I would think the osteoporosis would
reverse by itself, but I have to look into that.

I was so diligent about choosing a good surgeon but didnt' think the
endorcrinologist needed second guessing. Stupid me. (Still don't
know for sure a different endocrinologist would have done differently,
but this is just one of 6 places she mislead me or made a mistake, in
only one year. She's only about 28 years old, just a year out of
training, and I figured she'd have the most recent information.


I've not heard of Fosamax before. Did it come with an explanation print
out of how to take it and all the side affects?

--
Maggie

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:54:41 -0600, Muggles
wrote:


I was so diligent about choosing a good surgeon but didnt' think the
endorcrinologist needed second guessing. Stupid me. (Still don't
know for sure a different endocrinologist would have done differently,
but this is just one of 6 places she mislead me or made a mistake, in
only one year. She's only about 28 years old, just a year out of
training, and I figured she'd have the most recent information.


I've not heard of Fosamax before. Did it come with an explanation print
out of how to take it and all the side affects?

--
Maggie

It was invented by Fozzy Bear, and like Bobby says, it was advertised
a lot a few years ago, actually last year now that I think about it,
by Gidget. There are loads of women taking it, or its generic,
alendronate sodium. It's one of several bisphosphonates, all of
which have similar side effects. I'm lucky I didn't use the
injectable version, one shot for 6 or 12 months, because its tendency
to ONJ is worse.

Yes, I read web pages and the enclosure when I started, and noted the
possibility, though low, of ONJ, but what none of that said was that
one can't stop taking the drug in order to avoid the interaction. When
the dental work became important, I wrote to her and asked, How far in
advance do I have to stop the aldendronate before dental work, so I
won't have the problem, and she wrote back that it wouldn't help to
stop.

It's in the manufacturer's interest to say stopping would help if it
even might, but they say it won't help. Still, it might.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18022461
J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2007 Dec. Marx RE, Cillo JE Jr, Ulloa JJ.

https://www.lexi.com/individuals/den...sp?id=april_10
This article appears on the web twice, once in PDF and once in DOC
format, and neither time does it have a date. Well, it says April 10,
but not the year. Its opening words are "Recent data on the value
of the CTX test..." but still no date!!! Just like about 60% of urls,
even many with time value. This guy just quotes Dr. Marx
above, so it's after 2007. He doesn't claim Dr. Marx is right -- but
he's right downtown, and if he wrote this much, he might know if there
is any more recent research on the topic (whether NTX level is a
predictor of ONJ or not). Most of it online is from 2005, and one
article said that up until 2005, they were still trying to figure out
what ONJ was, since iiuc it didn't exist until Fosamax etc. were
invented. I called him once and left a short message on his
machine, and then I decided my plans would be the same no matter what
he said, but maybe I'll call him again.

If this were legal research, there would be Lexis, which requires a
substantial fee to access. There are *medical* pages that require a
fee, which I would gladly pay, but none seem, to my eyes, to be
anywhere near as expansive as Lexis. Do you know of any?

I've spent about 40 hours googling and reading, but have found almost
nothing later than 2007. Except for the dentist in California. I'm
not sure where he gets his info.


There had already been lawsuits btw, so I find it unlikely she didn't
know about the problem, or at least unlikely that she wasn't told by
her graduate professors. (Maybe she forgot.)

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:42:27 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Posted and mailed.

"Micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

OTOH, because of the hyperparathyroidism, I got osteoporosis, and an
endocrinologist put me on generic Fosamax. What she didn't do is tell
me that the side effect lasts 10 to 20 to 50 years after one takes it
and that is the possibility of osteonecrosis of the jaw if you have
dental extractions or implants, and conceivably some other dental
work.

That happened to my mom and she died of cancer shortly after (not that I
want to scare you or anything).

I'm sorry to hear about your mother.

You're saying she got ONJ?

I blame pseudo-medico Sally Fields (aka
"Gidget" and "The Flying Nun") who was pushing Fosamax like crazy a few
years ago.

All she would have had to do is ask if I needed dental work,
and I knew that eventually I would need some. I could have had it a
year ago with no risk of OSJ, but now I'm screwed and she screwed me.
OSJ has no cure btw, only treatment.

I feel for you, man, you got screwed by MDs just like my Mom.

She says the odds I'll get it are only 1/200.

And one source says the odds are 4%.

Those are crappy odds for you. I wonder what kind of thought processes they
use. My research has revealed time and time again that doctors downplay or
almost complete ignore side effects reported by their patients as some sort
of hypochondria. This is especially true of statins which doctors give out
like candy and which give some people incredible fatigue and joint pains.

Hmm. For the first time a month ago, my internist prescribed
atorvastatin (lipitor). So far no side effects. My cholesterol was
marginal in the past but this last time it was either far up, or the
lab just depicted it that way. I have all the prior blood results
but they were on paper and never got filed. They're here somewhere,
but since they weren't bad, I didn't pay much attention.

They've recalled
what, 10 million, or is it 50 million Tecata airbags just because of
10 deaths, and I'm supposed to be comforted by 1/200, when I could
have had my dental work before the Fosamax.

That sort of omission might lead me to file a lawsuit just so that the
importance of what was done to you is made clear.

I don't think I have damages yet. The 40 hours I've spent googling
and reading when I could have been doing other important things won't
count as damages. I don't like thinking about getting this, but I
can't help it, and if I do, I'm pretty sure I'll sue.

There had been lawssuits a year or two before she took her training,
so he had to know about this.

It's Takata, FWIW.

Good to know.

http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/takatalist.html

I'm still not sure if as a man I needed any drug for osteoporosis.

Did you get a bone density scan? That's how you can tell but they have now

I got a scan and it was fairly bad. I'm not doubting that I had
osteoporosis, but unlike other causes of it, mine was the overactive
parathyroid, and now that it's removed, I'm back to normal**. So I'm
thinking it would all reach dynamic equilibrium again without any
drugs. I asked her lately and got no answer. I've tried googling but
don't know how to exclude all the pages about the average man with
average osteoporosis.


**Although they do list other applicable causes, like not enough
impact exercise (bike riding doesn't pound on your bones like even
walking does.), like low testosterone (who knows. When I was
considering marrying a girl who had had a hysterectomy at age 28, I
had my fertility tested, with a prescription from her doctor, and in
his words, "He's off the chart!" So I had great fertility fairly
recently, but otoh, I'm 69 and I have a full head of brown hair (no
grey except my beard). Doesn't that imply I'm low in testosterone
(and that bald guys are high in it?)

created a new disease called ostopenia which they claim is pre-osteoporosis.
What about vitamin D and calcium supplements?

The internist 2 years ago prescibed 3000 or 5000 units of D a day, and
I was reliably taking it until this past year when for some reason I
kept forgetting for weeks at a time. I don't know why.

As to calcium, that's another mistake of hers. She told me to buy
some Tums just before the surgery, because when one of the (usually 4)
parathyroid glands is over-producing PTH, the other 3 shut down, since
their production is controlled, that is stopped, by the level of
calcium in the blood, which the bad gland made too high. Once the
bad gland is cut out, it can take iirc 3 to 5 days for the other 3
glands to wake up. That they wake up in only 5 days after being shut
down usually for years is another one of those biologicial miracles.
So I was supposed to take Tums for those 5 days, and I did, and then I
had another calcium (and PTH) test, and both were normal, so I didn't
need the Tums anymore. I told her on the phone that I was going to
give it away, but she said to keep it for December (a year after this
all started, about which she mistakenly gave me the impression she
expected my treatment to be over.) So I didn't need Tums acc. to her
but she never told in any other way to make sure I got enough calcium.
Not until September, 9 months in when I wrote her about something else
and included, "I know you would have said to if it mattered, but
should I be drinking milk every day, or anything like that? " and she
wrote back "You should be aiming for about 1200 mg of calcium daily
through diet and supplement if needed. Milk/yogurt have about 300mg
per serving and cheese about 200 mg per serving. Have a nice weekend,
and I'll see you in November." Never said a thing about that before,
and I would have remembered.

(In 1971, I broke my leg in Guatamala, and I made a point to drink 3
glasses of milk a day, even though the orthopedist (with a residency
in the US) didnt' say anything. After I got back, I tried to find out
if this was required, and afaict, it wasn't. So I didn't do anything
special this time either, until I finally asked her.)

That's a safer way to keep up
bone density without the horrible side effects that Fosamax (and it's
cousin, Boneva - aptly named because patients can say "I got boned by
Boneva!")

I was so diligent about choosing a good surgeon but didnt' think the
endorcrinologist needed second guessing. Stupid me. (Still don't
know for sure a different endocrinologist would have done differently,
but this is just one of 6 places she mislead me or made a mistake, in
only one year.

Time to pull the ripcord.

I'm not going back to her.

I tend to look for MDs about 10 to 15 years
younger than I am so they won't retire out from under me when I have a
serious problem.

That's a good idea. And that *was* my idea too. But I ended up
choosing an internist who was 63 y.o. He's about 67 now and doesn't
seem to be retiring, and I like him

I've used to pick older MDs but 3 of them retired in the
same year and left me in a lurch. One of the disappeared 25 years of
medical records, too. )-:

That's terrible.

She's only about 28 years old, just a year out of
training, and I figured she'd have the most recent information.

But very little clinical experience which is where doctors learn what they
were taught often doesn't coincide with reality. At her age she believes in
big Pharma and everything the detail men tell her.

Yeah.

I have heard good things about Maryland Endocrine in Columbia. That's
pretty close to you, isn't it? I can get you the names of some good ones
that have worked with me and my wife's thyroid problems. One of them is a
world-renowned thryoid expert, IIRC.

Thanks a lot. I looked and they have some really good resumes. (Only
one listed osteoporosis (the one from Mongolia! She has a good resume
too. Of course so did the one who messed me up.) but otoh, maybe
that's so standard that others didn't list it.) My email is in the
from if you remove the NONONO, as I changed your 00 to oo. I could
email you my phone or you could do that for me. I think I'd get a
lot out of talking to you.

The internist recommended this one, he said, because the other in the
same practice had a month's waiting list. I want to ask him if that
is the only reason.

I don't really have a parathyroid problem anymore. Every test has
been normal since it was cut out. The surgeon even tested the
ParaThyroid Hormone level during surgery and it had already dropped a
lot, to the high end of normal. 5 days later it was a little lower.

Another thing she told me wrong is that Medicare only pays for bone
density scans once a year, and that she would send me for one this
past December. But in November she said it was every two years, as if
she had never said anything different. ...Well they will pay if a
doctor says it's medically necessary, and I can pay myself. I called
and it was $176 dollars or very close to that. One webpage says it
was controversial (or maybe undesireable) to get scans once a year
because the error level in the scan was greater than the change in one
year, so once in two years is better.

Still, because I'm a guy, and I think I'm superman and nothing can
hurt me, I think that even though I forgot to take the vitamin D, and
even though I didn't ingest much dairy or beans, and even though I
don't get much exercise, esp. bone-pounding exercise, and even though
I took this terrible drug, I think I'd pass the bone density scan if I
took one this week. But I can't spend $176 every week so I'm going
to wait a little longer. I'm already committed to not taking the
alendronate for 4 more months -- that will be 18 months -- and then
I'll get the scan and pay for it if I have to.


BTW, for the record, the bisphonphonates do contradictory things. IIRC
they keep calcium from leaving the bones, but they inhibit new calcium
for getting into the bones. Statistics show a big reduction in hip
fractures etc. for those who take it. But I should have been warned
to get the dental work first. Besides ONJ, some women had sudden
for no apparent reason fractures of the femur. (not the hip iiuc.)

"Don Y" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Here, we are more concerned with where they *take* us. Certain
institutions are run by religious orders (won't honor DNR's, etc.).
Others aren't particularly known for good care. Etc.

Same here. But if you're unconcious, they take you wherever they want to.

Moral: get sick at home, avoid getting in traffic accidents
(esp if close to one of the "undesirable" providers!)

Don't get sick AT ALL if you can! (-:

Some companies even charge hundreds of dollars extra if a friend or
relative
rides along with an injured patients.

Many folks are airlifted for care, here -- too many remote areas
where land carriers would take too long for each leg of the trip.
Gotta wonder what one of *those* rides costs?!

I worked with a two star general who's closely associated with "Angel
Flight" that provides medical air lifts for free to people who can't afford
it.

http://www.angelflight.com/

Good people providing a service that's often desperately needed by those
living far away from medical resources.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 5:54:25 PM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:

I am betting it's the cost. Anyone whose seen a recent ambulance bills
would be wary of the cost, even with insurance.


Speaking of ambulance costs, last year my 12 mile ambulance ride was
billed at $7,500. Of course, they ended up settling for about 10% from
Medicare. I pity the poor guy with no insurance who is responsible for the
full amount. A screwy system.

Very much so. But it's a testament to how the power of Medicare's huge
"customer" base helps negotiate outrageous charges down to the realm of
reality. If Congress hadn't wimped out and allowed Medicare to negotiate
drug prices, we wouldn't be subsidizing Europe who DOES get a big negotiated
discount on US drugs for their health care insurers. Getting booted off the
formulary is something Big Pharma likes to avoid like the plague so they
often cave on outrageously high prices.

--
Bobby G.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Supposes to be most powerful, modern U.S. some people are not covered
for that? Even Czechoslovakia has every one covered.

Yes, it's so embarassing that the richest nation on earth and the alleged
"leader of the free world" would rather spend taxpayers money bombing and
rebuilding Muslim countries on the other side of the world.

You'd think we would be mortified that place like Cuba do better than we do
in caring for all their citizens. The role of "nation building" is nowhere
to be found in the Constitution (spelled out directly, anyway) but "to
provide for the general welfare" of our citizens was placed prominently and
directly right at the front.

When people talk about American "exceptionalism" I wonder if they ever think
about how much better so many other countries are at providing health care
to all citizens? The same goes for reasonbly priced high-speed net access
(even though we started the internet! For shame!!).

We could learn a lot about how the Germans value training programs to get
people back to work but we can't pass a simple jobs bill after the biggest
crash since 1929. "American Exceptionalism" seems to mean we're so
egotistical these days we believe that no other country has anything to
teach us.

And worse, Bush couldn't win a war against insurgents armed mostly with
IED's. So the long wars he started in Afghanistan and Iraq have given hope
to terrorists all over the world who now know that the American military
couldn't prevail against the Taliban and Al-Queda.

Bush made us look weak, stupid and willing to bankrupt ourselves fighting
people who had little or nothing to do with 9/11. As soon as we started to
pull out, the Iraqis went right back to their old ways and reignited the
Sunni/Shia feud. What a surprise! Heckuva a job, Bushie.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green posted for all of us...


Those are crappy odds for you. I wonder what kind of thought processes they
use. My research has revealed time and time again that doctors downplay or
almost complete ignore side effects reported by their patients as some sort
of hypochondria. This is especially true of statins which doctors give out
like candy and which give some people incredible fatigue and joint pains.


I am allegoric to statins. It's on all my records. My docs didn't ignore me
when I complained. I had severe muscle pain.

--
Tekkie

On 01/28/2016 04:06 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Robert Green posted for all of us...


Those are crappy odds for you. I wonder what kind of thought processes they
use. My research has revealed time and time again that doctors downplay or
almost complete ignore side effects reported by their patients as some sort
of hypochondria. This is especially true of statins which doctors give out
like candy and which give some people incredible fatigue and joint pains.


I am allegoric to statins. It's on all my records. My docs didn't ignore me
when I complained. I had severe muscle pain.


Check out www.spacedoc.com

It's a website detailing the danger of statins and is operated by former NASA astronaut and flight surgeon.