On 12/31/2015 2:04 AM, gregz wrote:

Someone standing *at* one of my windows trying to sniff signal
is going to be pretty obvious! OTOH, someone sitting in a
neighboring home can (without shielding) sniff without worry!

Solar metalized panes reflect RF to a degree. It's the outer edge yo have
to worry about.

Yes, low-e glass. But, I suspect this won't prove to be a problem
mainly due to sight-lines, etc.

We, for example, have no glass on the south side of the house
so neighbors there have no "opportunities". The north side has
two small windows, both of which are covered 24/7/365 with
window treatments. The east and west exposures have neighbors
farther away.

Anyone standing/parked close enough to the house (war-driving)
would be easily noticed and have very limited opportunity to
*do* anything or *snoop* anything before becoming conspicuous.

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 3:23:05 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 12/31/2015 2:11 AM, gregz wrote:

A good cage will reject RF. I've used cell phones in elevators. I can ring
my cell phone in my microwave. A microwave is only optimized at the
magnetron frequency.

Correct. You just have to control size of openings wrt the frequency
you're trying to block. As I have control over *my* (desired) RF,
I can tune the shield to fit *it's* needs, not try to block *all* RF.

However, as I can't just pick *any* frequencies ("intentional radiator"),
I can't be sure my shielding won't also block some things that I might
otherwise *want* to permeate the shield -- now or at some future date
(when who knows what the frequency allocations might be!). So, I
have to be prepared to live without "other needs"; and, be prepared
to undo what I've done when/if the house is sold (I suspect a future
homeowner would not consider the shielding to be an ASSET!)

Are you familiar with the passive repeater antenna systems for tunnels and mines? They systems use a "leaky" coax pulled through the tunnel but a pair of connected antennas could also be cut to length and and use bandpass filters between them to allow only what you want in your shielded room. Hum, you could connect your shielded room to the outside world using only a fiber optic connection. Gee, that could be a really interesting project. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Shielded Monster

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 11:17:43 AM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 3:23:05 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 12/31/2015 2:11 AM, gregz wrote:

A good cage will reject RF. I've used cell phones in elevators. I can ring
my cell phone in my microwave. A microwave is only optimized at the
magnetron frequency.

Correct. You just have to control size of openings wrt the frequency
you're trying to block. As I have control over *my* (desired) RF,
I can tune the shield to fit *it's* needs, not try to block *all* RF.

However, as I can't just pick *any* frequencies ("intentional radiator"),
I can't be sure my shielding won't also block some things that I might
otherwise *want* to permeate the shield -- now or at some future date
(when who knows what the frequency allocations might be!). So, I
have to be prepared to live without "other needs"; and, be prepared
to undo what I've done when/if the house is sold (I suspect a future
homeowner would not consider the shielding to be an ASSET!)

Are you familiar with the passive repeater antenna systems for tunnels and mines? They systems use a "leaky" coax pulled through the tunnel but a pair of connected antennas could also be cut to length and and use bandpass filters between them to allow only what you want in your shielded room. Hum, you could connect your shielded room to the outside world using only a fiber optic connection. Gee, that could be a really interesting project. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Shielded Monster

if op only wants to block wi fi, the easiest cheapest alternative is to go all wired ethernet, and dont have wi fi at all.

i preferer wired ethernet, its more reliable and faster......

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, bob haller wrote:

i preferer wired ethernet, its more reliable and faster......

So do I. I have Ethernet jacks all through my house. I didn't turn Wi-Fi on
until I had a tablet. They are Wi-Fi only. Likewise with cell phones.

For my laptop I have a USB3 to Ethernet converter. I suppose the same could
be rigged up for the tablet. Though there are no Ethernet jacks in the
bathrooms.

I also have telephone jacks throughout the house, all home run. My front
door intercoms each ring on a CO line of my Panasonic phones that are
driven by a Panasonic PBX.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On 12/31/2015 8:57 PM, Don Wiss wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, bob haller wrote:

i preferer wired ethernet, its more reliable and faster......

So do I. I have Ethernet jacks all through my house. I didn't turn Wi-Fi on
until I had a tablet. They are Wi-Fi only. Likewise with cell phones.

I have 72 PoE 100BaseTX drops throughout the house (inside and out).
Of these, 24 are "available" (i.e., do not have dedicated devices
attached to them). There are at least two "available" drops in
every room with some rooms having 4 (e.g., living room).

Each "available" network drop is accompanied by a RG6Q drop and CAT3
for telco.

[Foolishly ran CAT3 for the phone instead of a *second* CAT5e! frown
OTOH, if I need a second network drop at any given location, I can
install a PoE powered 2 port switch, there...]

There are two phone, CATV and network feeds into the house from
"outside providers". Additionally, feeds from the rooftop (e.g.,
our current ISP is microwave linked) and interior antennae.

There are three WiFi AP's tucked away around the house (typically
attached to Jboxes mounted in the ceiling of closets -- with PoE,
no need to worry about access to an electric outlet! : ). But,
the AP's are never used (no need to as there's wire everywhere!)

For my laptop I have a USB3 to Ethernet converter. I suppose the same could
be rigged up for the tablet. Though there are no Ethernet jacks in the
bathrooms.

All of my laptops have wired ethernet ports. No need to turn on their
WiFi adapters.

There are no "available" network (or phone) drops in the bathroom.
However, there is a "network speaker/microphone" device mounted
in the ceiling of each bathroom ("Help! I've fallen and I can't
get up!")

These also appear in the kitchen (4 of them), family room (4 more),
and back porch (2 more). There, they are primarily intended for use
in sound distribution (listening to the radio, TV, MP3's, etc.
piped in over the network). Two others located at opposite ends
of the house are primarily used for "annunciators" -- doorbell,
"paging", etc.

Of course, any of the "network speakers" can be used to communicate
with the occupants if they opt not to have their earpieces in place:
"Someone is at the front door".
"Incoming telephone call from Penny."
"The washing machine cycle is complete."
"'Dinner is ready!'"
"The garage door is being opened, remotely."
"It is raining. Please close the windows."

I also have telephone jacks throughout the house, all home run. My front
door intercoms each ring on a CO line of my Panasonic phones that are
driven by a Panasonic PBX.

I have three cameras at the front door, one of which has a speaker and a
microphone (the same device that is used in the bathrooms but in a different
package and with the addition of the camera inputs). As such, when motion
is detected *at* the door, (by either of the "approach" or "door facing"
cameras), I can begin capturing video and alerting the occupants that
"someone is coming up the walk".

The whole point of shielding the house interior is to keep the data that
is being *wirelessly* transferred to the occupants (think: BT earpiece)
from being snooped, spoofed or *jammed* by external agencies.

I also rely on wireless technology to figure out where the occupants are
presently located in the house (or yard). E.g., if only one is home and
happens to be taking a shower, then you wouldn't expect them to be WEARING
their earpiece so immediately resort to the network speaker in THAT
bathroom if you need to tell them something.

[OTOH, if it appears that they are in the bedroom and likely ASLEEP,
then you probably DON'T want to disturb them unless it's something
really important: "There appears to be a water leak in the house..."]

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Don Y wrote:

Each "available" network drop is accompanied by a RG6Q drop and CAT3
for telco.

Not having a TV, I have been weak in running coax. A few key places have
it. Not all is QuadShield. Some that isn't I plan to replace with
QuadShield.

Most drops have two Ethernet.

Many rooms have two drops. None have more.

[Foolishly ran CAT3 for the phone instead of a *second* CAT5e! frown
OTOH, if I need a second network drop at any given location, I can
install a PoE powered 2 port switch, there...]

I did not make that mistake. Each phone has either CAT5e or CAT6. So each
drop has two phone jacks.

There are two drops in my office. That means there are four phone jacks.
Each desk has a phone. That's two jacks. At one time I tried the MagicJack.
I was able to send the output down a line into the cellar and it went into
the PBX as a CO line. It then appeared on all the phones. But it was crap.

There are three WiFi AP's tucked away around the house (typically
attached to Jboxes mounted in the ceiling of closets -- with PoE,
no need to worry about access to an electric outlet! : ). But,
the AP's are never used (no need to as there's wire everywhere!)

I have only one. Being on the top floor of a triplex it does not get out
into the first floor extension. And an a/c duct blocks it to the master
bedroom. I plan to move it to a closet on the floor below. It should then
cover everything.

There are no "available" network (or phone) drops in the bathroom.

All bathrooms have a phone (not a Panasonic proprietary). When alone it is
convenient to answer calls there, and to answer the door intercom (though I
can't tell which door). Some of the people at the door can be sent away.
And the UPS/mailman can be told to leave the package, and I'll come down to
get it.

I have three cameras at the front door,

No cameras. I have long thought of one aimed out the front. It would get
the areaway, the stoop and the sidewalk.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 9:39:34 PM UTC-6, bob haller wrote:
On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 11:17:43 AM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 3:23:05 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 12/31/2015 2:11 AM, gregz wrote:

A good cage will reject RF. I've used cell phones in elevators. I can ring
my cell phone in my microwave. A microwave is only optimized at the
magnetron frequency.

Correct. You just have to control size of openings wrt the frequency
you're trying to block. As I have control over *my* (desired) RF,
I can tune the shield to fit *it's* needs, not try to block *all* RF.

However, as I can't just pick *any* frequencies ("intentional radiator"),
I can't be sure my shielding won't also block some things that I might
otherwise *want* to permeate the shield -- now or at some future date
(when who knows what the frequency allocations might be!). So, I
have to be prepared to live without "other needs"; and, be prepared
to undo what I've done when/if the house is sold (I suspect a future
homeowner would not consider the shielding to be an ASSET!)

Are you familiar with the passive repeater antenna systems for tunnels and mines? They systems use a "leaky" coax pulled through the tunnel but a pair of connected antennas could also be cut to length and and use bandpass filters between them to allow only what you want in your shielded room. Hum, you could connect your shielded room to the outside world using only a fiber optic connection. Gee, that could be a really interesting project. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Shielded Monster

if op only wants to block wi fi, the easiest cheapest alternative is to go all wired ethernet, and dont have wi fi at all.

i preferer wired ethernet, its more reliable and faster......

When I installed business networks, I only installed wired networks for small businesses to start with. Now, many small businesses provide WiFi for their customers so their WiFi systems must be segregated. partitioned and firewalled. The last WiFi router I installed was one in a restaurant that had free WiFi for their customers but wished to use iPads and iPhones to access the point of sale system for the staff to handle food orders for their customers. The POS network was already separated from the customer network so I installed a separate WiFi router in the kitchen for the staff. It's been a few years and I only had WPA2 to work with but I haven't heard of any security breaches of their business network. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle WiFi Monster

On 12/31/2015 10:57 PM, Don Wiss wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Don Y wrote:

Each "available" network drop is accompanied by a RG6Q drop and CAT3
for telco.

Not having a TV, I have been weak in running coax. A few key places have
it. Not all is QuadShield. Some that isn't I plan to replace with
QuadShield.

The phone and CATV drops are superfluous, here. I ran them as a convenience
to any future homeowner :

I plan on delivering video over the ethernet (hence the reason for four
drops in the living room -- so the TV can be placed in any corner!).

Phone is delivered via the earpieces with which occupants interact with
the house (VoIP gateway map the two incoming phone lines onto the network;
controller distributes it to the appropriate "occupant's" earpiece.)

There's an emergency phone hardwired to the incoming line that kicks in
during a prolonged power failure (as everything is PoE powered, a pair of
large UPS's on the main switch keeps EVERYTHING running during outages!).

There's also an "extended range" (~1W; best case, over 1000 yards) cordless
phone that can be tied into the VoIP system on demand (so it isn't
available to be hacked unless it is actively in use!). This lets me
wander the neighborhood (well out of the range of the BT earpiece)
and still interact with the house (via voice).

Most drops have two Ethernet.

Many rooms have two drops. None have more.

The family room has three, one on each of the front and back porches,
garage, store room, front hallway, kitchen cupboard, 2 on kitchen counter
(no RG6 there, though!), one in the equipment closet, etc.

[Foolishly ran CAT3 for the phone instead of a *second* CAT5e! frown
OTOH, if I need a second network drop at any given location, I can
install a PoE powered 2 port switch, there...]

I did not make that mistake. Each phone has either CAT5e or CAT6. So each
drop has two phone jacks.

There are two drops in my office. That means there are four phone jacks.
Each desk has a phone. That's two jacks. At one time I tried the MagicJack.
I was able to send the output down a line into the cellar and it went into
the PBX as a CO line. It then appeared on all the phones. But it was crap.

There are two drops in each bedroom (I use a bedroom as my office,
presently). It allows me to locate the office's network switch (too
many machines in the office to get by with 1 -- or even *10* -- drops!)
in one or the other corner of the room. The other drop is unused.

In the bedrooms, the two drops (again, usually at opposite corners of
the room) allow me to site something akin to a "smart TV" in either
corner -- which gives some flexibility as to where the bed and other
furniture will lie.

Again, no need for wires to "phones" in those locations.

There are three WiFi AP's tucked away around the house (typically
attached to Jboxes mounted in the ceiling of closets -- with PoE,
no need to worry about access to an electric outlet! : ). But,
the AP's are never used (no need to as there's wire everywhere!)

I have only one. Being on the top floor of a triplex it does not get out
into the first floor extension. And an a/c duct blocks it to the master
bedroom. I plan to move it to a closet on the floor below. It should then
cover everything.

In my case, they were a nod to future homeowners. Out-of-the-way
locations that wouldn't cosmetically clutter up the house interior.
Running wire is cheap -- *if* you do it all at the same time! :

There are no "available" network (or phone) drops in the bathroom.

All bathrooms have a phone (not a Panasonic proprietary). When alone it is
convenient to answer calls there, and to answer the door intercom (though I
can't tell which door). Some of the people at the door can be sent away.
And the UPS/mailman can be told to leave the package, and I'll come down to
get it.

My plan is to make the camera/speaker/microphone unit that represents
the "doorbell" resemble (in appearance and function) one of the HAL9000
terminals in _2001_. No "button" for visitors to push (the machine
can notice them walking up and "prompt" them: "How can I help you?"
etc.).

Unfortunately, it is proving difficult to find a large diameter, (3+")
optically clear lens to place in front of the camera lens! Plastic
wouldn't fare well (scratches).

I have three cameras at the front door,

No cameras. I have long thought of one aimed out the front. It would get
the areaway, the stoop and the sidewalk.

I have two on each corner of the house covering each "side" from two
different angles (eliminate blind spots). Additionally, one at the
front door watching the approach, another watching the *door* (i.e.,
the visitor's back) and the third acting as "doorbell", as
described above.

Each of these "dedicated drops" has a local processor (PoE, remember?).
So, each camera can implement its own motion detection locally -- instead
of burdening some "central computer" with that task. So, things
scale nicely (adding another camera doesn't overload a central shared
"motion detecting" resource!)

Likewise, the "network speaker/microphone" processors can do speech
recognition locally instead of passing that task onto another device.
Ditto for all the other dedicated devices.

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Don Y wrote:

On 12/31/2015 10:57 PM, Don Wiss wrote:
The phone and CATV drops are superfluous, here. I ran them as a convenience
to any future homeowner :

Same here. Though my cable modem in now on the 4th floor and it is fed by
coax.

I plan on delivering video over the ethernet (hence the reason for four
drops in the living room -- so the TV can be placed in any corner!).

That could be an option here for a future homeowner.

Many rooms have two drops. None have more.

The family room has three, one on each of the front and back porches,
garage, store room, front hallway, kitchen cupboard, 2 on kitchen counter
(no RG6 there, though!), one in the equipment closet, etc.

I miscounted in my prior post. There are three drops in the bedroom. Two
with coax. None is a hall. The one drop in the kitchen does have RG6. The
kitchen is only 11' x 12'. Only one counter where one could put equipment.
Each deck has a drop.

No cameras. I have long thought of one aimed out the front. It would get
the areaway, the stoop and the sidewalk.

I have two on each corner of the house covering each "side" from two
different angles (eliminate blind spots). Additionally, one at the
front door watching the approach, another watching the *door* (i.e.,
the visitor's back) and the third acting as "doorbell", as
described above.

Being in a 20' wide row house there are no sides to look at. The sides are
solid brick. Hence there are no drops on the side walls. For someone to get
to the back yard they would have to climb over eight 6' high fences.
According to a neighbor, no one has ever been in the backyards in their 50
years here. I could monitor the raccoons going by. But I give the back yard
to my ground floor tenants. I wouldn't want to monitor them.

Each of these "dedicated drops" has a local processor (PoE, remember?).

Mine are simply all home run to either a closet on the fourth floor, or the
panel in the cellar. Nothing complicated for a future homeowner.

When the cable guy came to install the cable modem he took a look at the
closet with the wiring. He said he has been installing for 13 years. I am
only the fifth house where he has seen such wiring. I didn't ask further,
but I bet the others were new houses, and not one built in 1891 like mine.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

So you'll be creating in essence a live-in
Faraday cage. Wow!

After serious thinking Don Y wrote :
I've debated painting the interior walls of the house with
metalized paint (RF shield). The downside, of course, is
that it makes wireless transmissions into/outof the house
impractical (that's the whole point!).

snip

Aluminum foil hats come to mind.
[Whut is that shinny thing streaking across the sky???]

On 1/1/2016 6:00 AM, Don Wiss wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Don Y wrote:

On 12/31/2015 10:57 PM, Don Wiss wrote:
The phone and CATV drops are superfluous, here. I ran them as a convenience
to any future homeowner :

Same here. Though my cable modem in now on the 4th floor and it is fed by
coax.

We don't have cable. The two runs from the outside allow someone
(or us, if we opt to do so in the future) to install cable and
run it (two feeds) into the equipment closet. There, install
a cable modem and route one or both of the feeds off to the
distribution amplifier (that feeds the 24 drops).

I.e., the point of the runs to the equipment closet (ethernet and
RG6) is to get access to the digital portion of the system. Phone
and TV distribution happens elsewhere (because those are "dumb"
wiring systems). E.g., there are a couple of punchdown blocks
located in another closet that terminate the 24 CAT3's that are
fed from 4 CAT3's originating in the equipment closet (two
of which would logically be loopbacks of the two feeds to the
house; the other two being feeds to the cordless phone and
emergency phone).

This keeps all of the "technology" in one place -- the equipment closet.

I plan on delivering video over the ethernet (hence the reason for four
drops in the living room -- so the TV can be placed in any corner!).

That could be an option here for a future homeowner.

We already do it on a very limited scale. My goal is to replace the
expensive, spyware laden, sluggish "Smart TV" offerings with just
a display driven by a "network to video converter" (in much the
same way as the "network speakers"). In that way, I have control
over content and form instead of relying on what some "supplier to
the masses" thinks a "TV" should do.

Many rooms have two drops. None have more.

The family room has three, one on each of the front and back porches,
garage, store room, front hallway, kitchen cupboard, 2 on kitchen counter
(no RG6 there, though!), one in the equipment closet, etc.

I miscounted in my prior post. There are three drops in the bedroom. Two
with coax. None is a hall. The one drop in the kitchen does have RG6. The
kitchen is only 11' x 12'. Only one counter where one could put equipment.
Each deck has a drop.

Our kitchen is probably the same size -- U shaped. I put drops on each end
of the counter areas (either side of the sink so no risk of having to
run a cord across the wet area). They are logical choices for a phone
(VoIP), laptop or countertop "TV" (display). A *traditional* TV that would
be fed from coax I guessed to be too little functionality to justify the
extra (hefty) cables.

We'd considered installing a slide-out display (tough panel) in a
"pocket" behind some of the cabinetry but figured this would raise
eyebrows for a future inspector owing to its location.

And, in our case, we don't *need* a "touch panel" as we can *talk* to the
house!

There's another drop in the pantry opposite the sink if you ever wanted
to site a "TV" there.

Much of the reasoning behind retrofitting an existing home (instead of
building custom) was to see the sorts of issues that would affect
other homeowners looking to adopt the technology.

No cameras. I have long thought of one aimed out the front. It would get
the areaway, the stoop and the sidewalk.

I have two on each corner of the house covering each "side" from two
different angles (eliminate blind spots). Additionally, one at the
front door watching the approach, another watching the *door* (i.e.,
the visitor's back) and the third acting as "doorbell", as
described above.

Being in a 20' wide row house there are no sides to look at. The sides are
solid brick. Hence there are no drops on the side walls. For someone to get
to the back yard they would have to climb over eight 6' high fences.

So, 8 fences between you and each of your nearest neighbors?
Here, any neighbor could climb over the 5 ft privacy walls.
I often do this to save myself a two block walk to one of the
neighbors behind us (I'm still spry enough that I can heft myself
over a 5 ft wall from standing).

And, wildlife routinely does that.

But, our concern isn't so much "security" as it is to give "eyes"
to the technology -- in much the same way that we use the front
door cameras in lieu of a "doorbell".

For example, the technology that tracks the occupants positions
works well *inside* the home -- because it doesn't rely on line
of sight observations (doing so would be silly as there are lots of
WALLS in a house! You'd need to be able to "see" into every
individual room!).

Extending that to the outdoors means adding transducers *in* the
various yards -- including the front yard where everything is
"exposed" and accessible!

Vision, OTOH, is not hindered by "walls" outdoors! So, as long
as *some* camera can "see" me, regardless of where we are standing,
the house can sort out where in the yard I am located.

If, for example, I am standing by the hose bibb located in the
north side-yard and call for "water", the house knows to
engage the solenoids to route water to THAT hose bibb and
not the one in the south side-yard or either of the ones
in the back yard, etc.

Otherwise, I would have to provide additional instruction to
the house: "water, north side-yard".

Just like saying "music" while in the kitchen routes music
into the kitchen, not the back porch or family room, etc.
WITHOUT my having to say "music, kitchen".

[I don't have to say what *kind* of music because the house knows
*I* am asking and knows my preferences -- when I'm located in
that room at that time of day, etc. Had SWMBO issued the
command, it would have responded with a different music selection!]

According to a neighbor, no one has ever been in the backyards in their 50
years here. I could monitor the raccoons going by. But I give the back yard
to my ground floor tenants. I wouldn't want to monitor them.

Each of these "dedicated drops" has a local processor (PoE, remember?).

Mine are simply all home run to either a closet on the fourth floor, or the
panel in the cellar. Nothing complicated for a future homeowner.

There's no "complication" for the available drops. There's power on
the pairs if you can use it (most PoE devices do this automagically)
so you don't have to worry about running a cord off to a nearby wall
wart (I got tired of seeing wall warts everywhere!).

The real advantage comes with all the dedicated devices. E.g.,
the video cameras don't need separate power supplies. The alarm
system doesn't need to be located someplace where it can be
"plugged in". The weather station doesn't need a separate power
line up to the roof -- nor does the swamp cooler need to have power
supplied to it in order for it's controls to operate. The amplifiers
in the network speakers don't need to be located close to a power
source, etc.

And, as each of these (48) dedicated devices has computing power,
any time I need more processing power, I can simply power up a
device that isn't currently in use (e.g., the device that
handles the laundry needs) and reallocate its resources to
some other computational task.

[I.e., I don't have a bunch of computers/servers in my equipment
closet doing all this work! Just a network switch (PoE), a
pair of largish UPS's (to backup EVERYTHING during an outage)
and a disk drive (to store multimedia content along with any
"persistent state" that the system wants to track). So, I
don't have a thermal management problem -- trying to vent all
that excess heat that "computers" would want to give off.
Nor a bunch of fan noise INSIDE the living space!]

When the cable guy came to install the cable modem he took a look at the
closet with the wiring. He said he has been installing for 13 years. I am
only the fifth house where he has seen such wiring. I didn't ask further,
but I bet the others were new houses, and not one built in 1891 like mine.

Given that I want others to be able to recreate what I've done,
I can't come up with a "custom" solution as most folks couldn't
afford the retrofit costs that I've undertaken. "Wiring" *will*
be a thing of the past as it limits what can be done. A
wireless solution will be the ultimate answer so folks can just
*set* their "Smart TV" in whichever corner of the house they want
without regard for getting cables over to it. Ditto all these
other "dedicated drops" that I've deployed.

But, that'll require far more technological investment than I am willing
to make when the systems themselves (e.g., IoT) don't exist, yet!
And, as that's just "fabric", it could easily be back-ported into an
existing system at a later date. OTOH, having that technology
without the system to use it leaves you wondering what's for dinner...

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:14:41 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/30/2015 6:24 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
This stuff...

http://emfsafetystore.com/#paints

Looks to be about $300+ a gallon!!! Needs to be grounded.

Yes, it's expensive. The market is small, there are few "players"
and the folks who want/need it *need* it -- which tends to make
it a seller's market.

But, it's a relatively minor cost. Let's assume I'd need *100*
gallons (not!) for the job -- $30K of paint. OTOH, if it saves
me the time and expense of developing an alternative, "non RF"
technology, I'll have "saved" the expense of that effort, the
time required for it *and* the "lost opportunities" that the
effort incurred: $250K? $500K $1M??

You, no doubt, own a car. Why? Surely you can WALK to any place
that your car can transport you! How many pairs of shoes can you
buy for the $20/30/40/50+K you'll spend on the vehicle? Plus the
gas, maintenance, insurance, etc. Isn't that car an EXTRAVAGANCE?
Why not hail a cab if you don't feel like walking?

Ah, but *having* it affords you other opportunities that you
might not have, without it! E.g., you can now work farther
from home -- giving you greater choice in where you live (or
work)! You can shop at places other than those within
walking distance -- and can purchase more than two armfuls
of goods! Etc.

Do you use an expensive phone (plus phone plan) instead of
snail mail? Aren't you just paying a lot of money to save
some *time*?

Do you go out for meals instead of making them yourself?
You *know* you aren't saving any *time* -- as it takes
"them" just as long to prepare the food as it would "you"
and you still have to transport yourself to/fro as well
as *wait* to be waited on, served, pay, etc.

[I always chuckle when I see someone order a $10 bowl
of spaghetti!]

Developing a product/device brings these sorts of time/cost
tradeoffs to the forefront. Save money? Or, save time??

Will you also paint the ceiling and put something over all the
windows?

We already have window treatments that could be adapted.
And, losses through unshielded openings (windows, doors)
are much less than those through omnidirectional radiation.
I.e., a transmitter has to be aligned with the opening
and the receiver -- as well as having sufficient power
to bridge the distance between.

Ceiling is a low risk as there's nothing looking down on us
(within a few sight-miles). If it became an issue, laying
wire mesh *on* the roof would be an effective and more
economical solution -- with practically zero cosmetic
implications (you can't *see* the roof unless you're
flying overhead).

Are you worried bout your neighbors spying or are you worried someo9ne
it literally going to come into your neighborhood and specifically
target you to spy on? Is there something specific you fear someone
will find out or is this a generalized fear of being spied on?

On 1/1/2016 9:06 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Are you worried bout your neighbors spying or are you worried someo9ne
it literally going to come into your neighborhood and specifically
target you to spy on? Is there something specific you fear someone
will find out or is this a generalized fear of being spied on?

If I'm the only person with fill-in-the-blank there is very
little chance of someone being able to *use* data that they
snoop -- there are far too many impediments to them even
KNOWING what the data contains, how it is encoded, encrypted, etc.

In a sense, "security by obscurity" (if you don't know that the
building across the street from you is a gold depository, then
you're not going to think of how to break into it! : )

OTOH, if you (me) are developing a technology that others will
eventually use -- i.e., so it is no longer "obscure" -- you don't
want to develop that technology with an inherent weakness that
others could exploit!

"Gee, it's a great idea but it has these HUGE weaknesses..."

So, I need to make sure I have a COMPLETE solution -- even if it isnt
the most inexpensive or technologically advanced. I can't say
"this is the world's safest automobile!" if I then have to add,
/sotto voce/, "as long as there are NO OTHER DRIVERS on the road"

Relying on wireless comms in any way opens the door for:
- "eavesdropping" (snooping on the data)
- counterfeiting (forging data or commands)
- denial of service (jam the airwaves to prevent things from working)

The way to minimize these problems is to shield the comms; just
the equivalent of turning them into "wired" comms (where the
"insulator" function is performed by the shielding)