Boris wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
:


"Boris" wrote in message
09.88...
I live in an elevated rancher built in 1978. I just removed carpeting
and linoleum from my breakfast room, kitchen, dining room, and living
room, all of which are open to each other. I had 3/4" red oak
planking installed over the existing plywood subfloor.

Winter season has come, and it has been unseasonalbly cold, and I
really notice it in the rooms mentioned above. I don't know if it's
because the wood transfers hot/cold more than what was on the floors,
or because of the really cold weather. I'm in the S.F. Bay area,
where winters are normally mild (40 - 50), and my furnace usually
heats the house fine, but now it takes an hour or so to heat the
house (20 year old gas heater, forced air, below in the garage).
When I wake in the morning, the house is 56 - 60, and overnight temps
were mid-30's to low 40's.

I'm considering insulating the crawlspace under the house, under the
new wood flooring. I have good access to all areas under the new
wood flooring, and to all exterior walls. I can walk under the
entire area. The floor joists are 2 x 10 (1 3/4 x 9), and the wall
studs are 2 x 4 (1 3/4 x 3 1/2). I've been reading a lot about
insulating crawlspaces, and some say just need to insulate between
all the joists, and others say best to insultate just betwee the
studs. Of course, doing just the studs would be much easier, since
it's doesn't have to be 'hung', and less expensive, since the
insulation wouldn't have to be as thick.

Any suggestions?

YOu did not mention the insulation over head. If it is less than
about 8 to 10 inches, start there. Then to the walls and last the
floors.. Do be sure that the vents under the house are closed so the
air does not just flow under it.




Over head? I think you mean what's in the attic...that blown in pink
stuff, lots of it. So much so that you have to clear it away to find the
ceiling joists.

I've closed up all the vents already.

Minimal air circulation is necessary for various reasons.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:26:47 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
Boris wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
:


"Boris" wrote in message
09.88...
I live in an elevated rancher built in 1978. I just removed carpeting
and linoleum from my breakfast room, kitchen, dining room, and living
room, all of which are open to each other. I had 3/4" red oak
planking installed over the existing plywood subfloor.

Winter season has come, and it has been unseasonalbly cold, and I
really notice it in the rooms mentioned above. I don't know if it's
because the wood transfers hot/cold more than what was on the floors,
or because of the really cold weather. I'm in the S.F. Bay area,
where winters are normally mild (40 - 50), and my furnace usually
heats the house fine, but now it takes an hour or so to heat the
house (20 year old gas heater, forced air, below in the garage).
When I wake in the morning, the house is 56 - 60, and overnight temps
were mid-30's to low 40's.

I'm considering insulating the crawlspace under the house, under the
new wood flooring. I have good access to all areas under the new
wood flooring, and to all exterior walls. I can walk under the
entire area. The floor joists are 2 x 10 (1 3/4 x 9), and the wall
studs are 2 x 4 (1 3/4 x 3 1/2). I've been reading a lot about
insulating crawlspaces, and some say just need to insulate between
all the joists, and others say best to insultate just betwee the
studs. Of course, doing just the studs would be much easier, since
it's doesn't have to be 'hung', and less expensive, since the
insulation wouldn't have to be as thick.

Any suggestions?

YOu did not mention the insulation over head. If it is less than
about 8 to 10 inches, start there. Then to the walls and last the
floors.. Do be sure that the vents under the house are closed so the
air does not just flow under it.




Over head? I think you mean what's in the attic...that blown in pink
stuff, lots of it. So much so that you have to clear it away to find the
ceiling joists.

I've closed up all the vents already.

Minimal air circulation is necessary for various reasons.

+1

I missed that. Closing up all the vents in an attic is a big mistake.
Having sufficient ventilation is critical and usually the problem is that
there isn't enough.

On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM, wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
- show quoted text -
Wrong. Hot air rises. Heat energy travels to attempt equilibrium no
matter the direction. If the floor is not insulated properly the heat
will travel to it. "

Ohh STOP NITPICKING. You know
you online ****s love to oppose me
on damn near everything I post here!

It's getting tiring. The original poster
gets the basic point. That's all that
matters, C-3PO.


No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He already has
insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest heat loss.

Knowing how het energy travels is important for insulating your house,
cooking a rib roast, thawing pork chops, stoking a fire and more.
Physiscs can be fun and you can make your life easier.

Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM, wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


"No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He already has
insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest heat loss."

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward? Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying. I live in a relatively conventional house: wood frame,
concrete cellar, unoccupied attic. My insulation/sealing
challenges are relatively simple compared to slabs,
etc. One early February morning I ran out in just my PJs
and slippers to start up the wife's car for work. 12F.
Next morning, same thing, this time plus a winter hat
on my head. Felt a whole lot warmer and took my time
walking out to the car and back!

"Knowing how het energy travels is important for insulating your house,
cooking a rib roast, thawing pork chops, stoking a fire and more. "

And for exiting a nightclub after some nincompoop
sets off 15' gerbs against a 10' ceiling covered with
shipping foam used as sound deadener.

"
Physiscs can be fun and you can make your life easier. "

Indeed! Sorry Ed - but I get refuted at every corner
of this thing called Usenet.

On 12/29/2015 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:

--

But there are diminishing returns and he's in SF, which has a
moderate climate. Between unfinished basements and the living
space typically isn't insulated. My basement is probably ~55F
all year long, in SF I wouldn't be surprised if a crawlspace,
with some limited vents, is not too much different.

Some places now require the floor to be insulated'

Someone else pointed out that some more info on what the real
objective is would be helpful. He said that after replacing
carpet with wood flooring, it takes a lot longer to heat the
house. I don't think that makes much sense. I can see carpet
feeling warmer, but from a heat transfer perspective, I doubt
carpet vs wood is going to make much difference.

Carpet and pad can be R2 to R6 depending on material and thickness.
Could make a noticeable difference if the heating system is marginal.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:25:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM, wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


"No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He already has
insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest heat loss."

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward?
Not if there is no convection involved. Radiant heat transfer is
agnostic. It doesn't care which end is up.
Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.
Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.
I live in a relatively conventional house: wood frame,
concrete cellar, unoccupied attic. My insulation/sealing
challenges are relatively simple compared to slabs,
etc. One early February morning I ran out in just my PJs
and slippers to start up the wife's car for work. 12F.
Next morning, same thing, this time plus a winter hat
on my head. Felt a whole lot warmer and took my time
walking out to the car and back!

An uninsulated slab tries to reach thermal equalibrium with the ground
below it. Ground temperature at basement footing depth is generally
well below "room temperature" - around here generally in the high 50sF
to low 60s. When insulated with 4 inches of foam, it is thermally
broken from that subterrainian heat sink, so it approches thermal
equalibrium with the air above it - and you end up with a "warm" or
close to room temperature slab. If you have radiant heating the slab
gets warmer than room temperature and sheds heat to the air around it.

As far as the hat, a large proportion of your blood flow is to the
head to fuel the grey matter, so a fair amount of heat loss occurs up
there. Stand on your head and the situation doesn't change much, if
any, for the better. Covering the "radiator" keeps the heat in.

"Knowing how het energy travels is important for insulating your house,
cooking a rib roast, thawing pork chops, stoking a fire and more. "

And for exiting a nightclub after some nincompoop
sets off 15' gerbs against a 10' ceiling covered with
shipping foam used as sound deadener.

"
Physiscs can be fun and you can make your life easier. "

Indeed! Sorry Ed - but I get refuted at every corner
of this thing called Usenet.

On 12/29/2015 9:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Carpet and pad can be R2 to R6 depending on material and thickness.
Could make a noticeable difference if the heating system is marginal.


I lived in a place one time which had a cement
floor in the bedroom. (No kidding, hold my
beer, woman.) One night as I was laying on the
bed, watching TV, noticed my one foot was less
cold than the other. Some investigation finds
two layers of carpet under one foot, one lay
under other foot. I moved the carpet scrap to
be under both feet, and that was much more
comfortable.

Since that time, I've moved. However, I've made
sure to always have a carpet sample next to the
bed where my feet land.

Some carpet stores sell samples of old design
carpet. Those can make great foot pads.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Stormin Mormon:


5 8 8 - 2 300 - Em-PIIIIRE!


today!

On 12/29/2015 10:48 PM, wrote:
Stormin Mormon:


5 8 8 - 2 300 - Em-PIIIIRE!


today!


Perhaps there is some back story or
in joke that I missed?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Stormin:


You mentioned carpet samples and stores. Ever
heard of Empire Carpet, seen their jingles on
TV?

On 12/29/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward? Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Always to the coldest no matter the direction. The reason hot air rises
it that hot air is less dense than cooler air. Actually, cold air is
sinking and displacing the warm air.


I live in a relatively conventional house: wood frame,
concrete cellar, unoccupied attic. My insulation/sealing
challenges are relatively simple compared to slabs,
etc. One early February morning I ran out in just my PJs
and slippers to start up the wife's car for work. 12F.
Next morning, same thing, this time plus a winter hat
on my head. Felt a whole lot warmer and took my time
walking out to the car and back!

There is a lot of heat loss from your head. In recent years I don't go
out in winter without a hat as I don't have any other protection.
Modern technology allows me to push a button to start the car too. My
new car has a heated steering wheel Love it.



Indeed! Sorry Ed - but I get refuted at every corner
of this thing called Usenet.


Its not personal. Often I don't even look to see who I reply to if I
have valid information to add to the conversation.

On 12/29/2015 11:22 PM, wrote:
Stormin:


You mentioned carpet samples and stores. Ever
heard of Empire Carpet, seen their jingles on
TV?


Sorry, no. Never even heard of that company.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/29/2015 11:22 PM, wrote:
Stormin:


You mentioned carpet samples and stores. Ever
heard of Empire Carpet, seen their jingles on
TV?


OMG, I've seen it tooooo many times.

Pawlowski, Mormon:

From opposite ends of the country I guess. LOL

Empire Carpet is huge here in the northeast.

On 12/30/2015 12:21 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/29/2015 11:22 PM, wrote:
Stormin:


You mentioned carpet samples and stores. Ever
heard of Empire Carpet, seen their jingles on
TV?


OMG, I've seen it tooooo many times.

Likely a regional thing. You live in area
with chain stores.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/30/2015 6:48 AM, wrote:
Pawlowski, Mormon:

From opposite ends of the country I guess. LOL

Empire Carpet is huge here in the northeast.


Well, that explains a lot. Also, I watch zero
broadcast or cable TV. Listen to talk radio and
Christian radio maybe four or five hours a week.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 12:19:25 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/29/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward? Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Always to the coldest no matter the direction. The reason hot air rises
it that hot air is less dense than cooler air. Actually, cold air is
sinking and displacing the warm air.


Agree with regard to the first order effects. And if everything was held
constant, it would be 100% true in this situation, but it isn't. With a
cold floor, you wind up with a layer of cold air near the floor that's
going to tend to stay there. With a cold layer of air forming from a cold
ceiling, it's going to move and circulate via convection. So, it would
seem to me that a cold ceiling is worse than a cold floor, because you're
going to have more heat transfer via convection. If you had the
same temp delta with a hot ceiling and a cold floor, then I would expect
the heat transfer to be the same. Or vice-versa, a cold ceiling and a
hot floor.

In poster's case, seems he has enough insulation in the attic.

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:26:47 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
Boris wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
:


"Boris" wrote in message
09.88...
I live in an elevated rancher built in 1978. I just removed
carpeting and linoleum from my breakfast room, kitchen, dining
room, and living room, all of which are open to each other. I
had 3/4" red oak planking installed over the existing plywood
subfloor.

Winter season has come, and it has been unseasonalbly cold, and I
really notice it in the rooms mentioned above. I don't know if
it's because the wood transfers hot/cold more than what was on
the floors, or because of the really cold weather. I'm in the
S.F. Bay area, where winters are normally mild (40 - 50), and my
furnace usually heats the house fine, but now it takes an hour or
so to heat the house (20 year old gas heater, forced air, below
in the garage). When I wake in the morning, the house is 56 - 60,
and overnight temps were mid-30's to low 40's.

I'm considering insulating the crawlspace under the house, under
the new wood flooring. I have good access to all areas under the
new wood flooring, and to all exterior walls. I can walk under
the entire area. The floor joists are 2 x 10 (1 3/4 x 9), and the
wall studs are 2 x 4 (1 3/4 x 3 1/2). I've been reading a lot
about insulating crawlspaces, and some say just need to insulate
between all the joists, and others say best to insultate just
betwee the studs. Of course, doing just the studs would be much
easier, since it's doesn't have to be 'hung', and less expensive,
since the insulation wouldn't have to be as thick.

Any suggestions?

YOu did not mention the insulation over head. If it is less than
about 8 to 10 inches, start there. Then to the walls and last
the floors.. Do be sure that the vents under the house are closed
so the air does not just flow under it.




Over head? I think you mean what's in the attic...that blown in
pink stuff, lots of it. So much so that you have to clear it away
to find the ceiling joists.

I've closed up all the vents already.

Minimal air circulation is necessary for various reasons.

+1

I missed that. Closing up all the vents in an attic is a big mistake.
Having sufficient ventilation is critical and usually the problem is
that there isn't enough.


I haven't done anything in the attic. Haven't even been up there. Vents
are open up there. I closed the vents in the crawlspace.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in
:

On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM, wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
- show quoted text -
Wrong. Hot air rises. Heat energy travels to attempt equilibrium no
matter the direction. If the floor is not insulated properly the
heat will travel to it. "

Ohh STOP NITPICKING. You know
you online ****s love to oppose me
on damn near everything I post here!

It's getting tiring. The original poster
gets the basic point. That's all that
matters, C-3PO.


No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He already
has insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest heat loss.

Knowing how het energy travels is important for insulating your house,
cooking a rib roast, thawing pork chops, stoking a fire and more.
Physiscs can be fun and you can make your life easier.


Mechanical and heat energy physics was my favorite subject. It made so
much common sense.

trader_4 wrote in
:

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 12:19:25 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski
wrote:
On 12/29/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward? Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Always to the coldest no matter the direction. The reason hot air
rises it that hot air is less dense than cooler air. Actually, cold
air is sinking and displacing the warm air.


Agree with regard to the first order effects. And if everything was
held constant, it would be 100% true in this situation, but it isn't.
With a cold floor, you wind up with a layer of cold air near the floor
that's going to tend to stay there. With a cold layer of air forming
from a cold ceiling, it's going to move and circulate via convection.
So, it would seem to me that a cold ceiling is worse than a cold
floor, because you're going to have more heat transfer via convection.
If you had the same temp delta with a hot ceiling and a cold floor,
then I would expect the heat transfer to be the same. Or vice-versa,
a cold ceiling and a hot floor.

In poster's case, seems he has enough insulation in the attic.





Yeah, enough insulation in the attic. The floors are indeed cold, and
the entire room(s) is (are) cold, not just the floor. Area rugs would
only make my bare feet warmer.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in newsKudndzOjeivoB7LnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 12/29/2015 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:

--

But there are diminishing returns and he's in SF, which has a
moderate climate. Between unfinished basements and the living
space typically isn't insulated. My basement is probably ~55F
all year long, in SF I wouldn't be surprised if a crawlspace,
with some limited vents, is not too much different.

Some places now require the floor to be insulated'

Someone else pointed out that some more info on what the real
objective is would be helpful. He said that after replacing
carpet with wood flooring, it takes a lot longer to heat the
house. I don't think that makes much sense. I can see carpet
feeling warmer, but from a heat transfer perspective, I doubt
carpet vs wood is going to make much difference.

Carpet and pad can be R2 to R6 depending on material and thickness.
Could make a noticeable difference if the heating system is marginal.


I did think about area rugs, but that wouldn't work in the kitchen. And,
I hate to cover up the beautiful new hardwood.

At this point, we're still having unusually cold days and nights, and
predicted for another week, at least. I may just wait until the weather
gets more normal before I make a decision on what to do. If I do
anything, my question is still do I insulate the crawlspace walls or the
above head flooring. I'd love to also install a more efficient furnace,
but that's not in the budget at this time.

In 09.88,
Boris typed:

I'm considering insulating the crawlspace under the house, under the
new wood flooring. I have good access to all areas under the new
wood flooring, and to all exterior walls.

Yes, the exterior of all living space is insulated. I'm talking about
exterior walls of the crawlspace. It is defined as a crawlspace, but
it's really tall. As a matter of fact, there's a standard size door
that connects it to the garage, both of which are below the first
floor. From the garage, I walk into the 'crawlspace'. It's a
hoarder's paradise under there. (Me no hoarder.) Anyway, the
foundation sill has the standard 2 x 4 on top of it, and on top of
that are the 2 x 4 exterior wall studs, unfinished (no sheetrock).
The exterior is stucco. In some places, these walls are 4' tall, and
in others they are 8' tall. The house is built on a slope. From the
sidewalk view, the left side is higher, and the land slopes down to
the right. The right hand walls are the taller ones.


Based on what you wrote above, my vote would be to insulate the unfinished
"crawlspace" walls first -- basically to help keep the "cold" from getting
into the crawlspace from the outside. (I know, technically it is to keep
the heat in the crawlspace from getting to the outside through the
now-uninsulated crawlspace walls -- since heat energy flows from the warm
side to the cold side, not cold flowing to the warm side).

After that, if you decide to insulate the crawlspace ceiling, you could do
that too. But, I would do the walls first.

In ,
typed:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:25:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM,
wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


"No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He
already has insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest
heat loss."

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward?
Not if there is no convection involved. Radiant heat transfer is
agnostic. It doesn't care which end is up.
Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the crawlspace
and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of the crawlspace;
and not so much between the floor above and the floor of the crawlspace
below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of the
crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive) first
option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is located.

In 09.88,
Boris typed:
Ed Pawlowski wrote in newsKudndzOjeivoB7LnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 12/29/2015 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:

--

But there are diminishing returns and he's in SF, which has a
moderate climate. Between unfinished basements and the living
space typically isn't insulated. My basement is probably ~55F
all year long, in SF I wouldn't be surprised if a crawlspace,
with some limited vents, is not too much different.

Some places now require the floor to be insulated'

Someone else pointed out that some more info on what the real
objective is would be helpful. He said that after replacing
carpet with wood flooring, it takes a lot longer to heat the
house. I don't think that makes much sense. I can see carpet
feeling warmer, but from a heat transfer perspective, I doubt
carpet vs wood is going to make much difference.

Carpet and pad can be R2 to R6 depending on material and thickness.
Could make a noticeable difference if the heating system is marginal.

. . . . ,
I do anything, my question is still do I insulate the crawlspace
walls or the above head flooring.

As I mentioned earlier, my vote would be to do the former -- insulate the
crawlspace walls.

On 12/30/2015 4:30 PM, Boris wrote:
Yeah, enough insulation in the attic. The floors are indeed cold, and
the entire room(s) is (are) cold, not just the floor. Area rugs would
only make my bare feet warmer.


I'm all for warm piggies.

Thick underlayment under good carpet.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

What about insulating the floor studs. 2x6 to
2x8 leaves lots of room for some batts under
there.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:03:45 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

In ,
typed:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:25:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM,
wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


"No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He
already has insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest
heat loss."

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward?
Not if there is no convection involved. Radiant heat transfer is
agnostic. It doesn't care which end is up.
Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the crawlspace
and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of the crawlspace;
and not so much between the floor above and the floor of the crawlspace
below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of the
crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive) first
option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is located.

+1

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:08:21 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

In 09.88,
Boris typed:
Ed Pawlowski wrote in newsKudndzOjeivoB7LnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 12/29/2015 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:

--

But there are diminishing returns and he's in SF, which has a
moderate climate. Between unfinished basements and the living
space typically isn't insulated. My basement is probably ~55F
all year long, in SF I wouldn't be surprised if a crawlspace,
with some limited vents, is not too much different.

Some places now require the floor to be insulated'

Someone else pointed out that some more info on what the real
objective is would be helpful. He said that after replacing
carpet with wood flooring, it takes a lot longer to heat the
house. I don't think that makes much sense. I can see carpet
feeling warmer, but from a heat transfer perspective, I doubt
carpet vs wood is going to make much difference.

Carpet and pad can be R2 to R6 depending on material and thickness.
Could make a noticeable difference if the heating system is marginal.

. . . . ,
I do anything, my question is still do I insulate the crawlspace
walls or the above head flooring.

As I mentioned earlier, my vote would be to do the former -- insulate the
crawlspace walls.


Before my brother got his new house built up at Hunsville Ontario he
lived in an old "redneck bungalow" that was parked on the property.
He skirted it with 1X6 lumber and insulated the skirting, and the
place became pretty liveable. When they got some good snow on the
ground he banked it up to help insulate the "crawl space" and it
stayed obove freezing all winter with just a 100 watt light bulb under
the trailer. He was sitting on dry sand. This was not a small trailer
- 50 ft I think.

"TomR" wrote in :

In ,
typed:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:25:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On 12/29/2015 6:29 AM,
wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:09:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


"No, you told him it is more important to insulate above. He
already has insulation there, nothing below so that is his greatest
heat loss."

But isn't the rate of heat transfer higher in an upward
direction than downward?
Not if there is no convection involved. Radiant heat transfer is
agnostic. It doesn't care which end is up.
Not that I want to be standing
on a floor in direct contact with a frost table, but, just
saying.

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the
crawlspace and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace; and not so much between the floor above and the floor
of the crawlspace below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive)
first option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is
located.



Yes, that's what makes the most common sense to me.

In 09.88,
Boris typed:
"TomR" wrote in :

In ,
typed:

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the
crawlspace and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace; and not so much between the floor above and the floor
of the crawlspace below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive)
first option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss
is located.

Yes, that's what makes the most common sense to me.

I you do decide to go ahead and do that, let us know if it seemed to work
and solve the problem.

On 12/30/2015 4:03 PM, TomR wrote:
....

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

"...for a given overall heat transfer coefficient across the media per
unit area".

For conduction/convection it's Q=U A dT

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the crawlspace
and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of the crawlspace;
and not so much between the floor above and the floor of the crawlspace
below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of the
crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive) first
option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is located.

That may be true but need more than just which is the larger dT to
really say where the main heat loss actually would be.

That said, it makes sense from a physical standpoint to tighten up the
exterior wall closing up any leaks and taking care of old single-pane
windows w/ no storms, etc., etc., etc., ...

Whether you get more bang for the buck from further insulation there or
the floor probably has more to do with what the air leakage from that
area into the living space is than anything else, though.

--

On 12/31/2015 3:53 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:03 PM, TomR wrote:
...

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

"...for a given overall heat transfer coefficient across the media per
unit area".

For conduction/convection it's Q=U A dT

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the
crawlspace
and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of the crawlspace;
and not so much between the floor above and the floor of the crawlspace
below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of the
crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive) first
option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is located.

That may be true but need more than just which is the larger dT to
really say where the main heat loss actually would be.

That said, it makes sense from a physical standpoint to tighten up the
exterior wall closing up any leaks and taking care of old single-pane
windows w/ no storms, etc., etc., etc., ...

Whether you get more bang for the buck from further insulation there or
the floor probably has more to do with what the air leakage from that
area into the living space is than anything else, though.

--

If the ground is not an insulated slab there will still be loss from the
floor. I'd start with the underside of the floor first. Just do
between a couple of joists and you'll feel the difference in a short time.

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 5:15:39 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2015 3:53 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:03 PM, TomR wrote:
...

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

"...for a given overall heat transfer coefficient across the media per
unit area".

For conduction/convection it's Q=U A dT

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the
crawlspace
and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of the crawlspace;
and not so much between the floor above and the floor of the crawlspace
below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of the
crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive) first
option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss is located.

That may be true but need more than just which is the larger dT to
really say where the main heat loss actually would be.

That said, it makes sense from a physical standpoint to tighten up the
exterior wall closing up any leaks and taking care of old single-pane
windows w/ no storms, etc., etc., etc., ...

Whether you get more bang for the buck from further insulation there or
the floor probably has more to do with what the air leakage from that
area into the living space is than anything else, though.

--

If the ground is not an insulated slab there will still be loss from the
floor. I'd start with the underside of the floor first. Just do
between a couple of joists and you'll feel the difference in a short time.

That's where I'd start too. Apparently all was OK until he
switched from carpet to wood flooring, so why start with the
crawlspace walls? I can see how wood flooring would make the
floor feel colder, but I find it hard to believe it can result
in the alleged substantial difference in time it takes to heat
the house, etc.

Ed P, trader_4:

Happy New Year!

Correct on your recent suggestion to directly
insulate the occupied envelope first. That's
why I question why so many folks are insulating
the roof rafters of unoccupied attics instead of
just the highest ceilings of their living space.

And sometimes, just sealing holes or gaps
increases comfort significantly, by stopping
or stunting airflow and drafts.

dpb wrote in :

On 12/30/2015 4:03 PM, TomR wrote:
...

Heat transfer is faster where the delta T is higher. The larger the
difference in temperature, the faster the heat transfer.

"...for a given overall heat transfer coefficient across the media per
unit area".

For conduction/convection it's Q=U A dT

I suspect that the greatest delta T is between the inside of the
crawlspace and the outside air through the uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace; and not so much between the floor above and the floor
of the crawlspace below.

That is why I think that insulating the now-uninsulated side walls of
the crawlspace would be the best (and easiest, and least expensive)
first option. I think that is where the most significant heat loss
is located.

That may be true but need more than just which is the larger dT to
really say where the main heat loss actually would be.

That said, it makes sense from a physical standpoint to tighten up the
exterior wall closing up any leaks and taking care of old single-pane
windows w/ no storms, etc., etc., etc., ...

Whether you get more bang for the buck from further insulation there
or the floor probably has more to do with what the air leakage from
that area into the living space is than anything else, though.

--


I have double pane e-glass in all windows and sliders. Works very well.

Boris wrote: "dpb wrote in :
- show quoted text -
I have double pane e-glass in all windows and sliders. Works very well. "

Actually, unless existing windows no longer operate without
effort, or panes are cracked or frames warped, windows
should be the last step in weather-proofing and insulating
an occupied envelope. In most homes, windows occupy
30% or less of the exterior envelope(which includes the
attic floor if attic unoccupied).