I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:55:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Given this situation is in California, who knows what is "normal"?!

Reference your local codes, regulations, etc.. Not sure if all this
has to do with things "known to cause cancer, birth defects or other
reproductive harm, and to inform citizens about exposures to such
chemicals."

Call your local authorities.

On 12/17/2015 3:06 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:55:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Given this situation is in California, who knows what is "normal"?!

Reference your local codes, regulations, etc.. Not sure if all this
has to do with things "known to cause cancer, birth defects or other
reproductive harm, and to inform citizens about exposures to such
chemicals."

Call your local authorities.

Be careful of Oren. He might **** yer mother.
LOL

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:55:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

I have a 500 gal tank. They only fill mine to 80%. But they can not fill
any tank to 100%. Even those 20lb tanks for your BBQ grill are only
filled part way. In the sun, they expand, so if they were filled 100%,
they would at least release gas, if not explode.

I dont know anything about your CA tax or what the Hazmat fee does.
That's local to your area, I assume...

I'm charged for inspection too, and if the tank gets completely empty,
they do it again, and charge me again. My fee is $50, and if you ask me,
that's too much for spending 10 minutes looking at my pipes, tank, and
regulator. They used to come indoors and light my furnace pilot light,
but the last time they did that was years ago. They know I can light it,
and I'm not always there when they deliver the gas. But they made me
sign some disclaimer in order to light it myself, and they shut off the
tank valve, so I have to turn it on. (Which makes sense because some
things. like a gas range would release gas into the home is the pilot
was not lit).

If I ONLY use propane, I have to get a fill mid winter. 500 gal is not
enough for a whole winter for me. But I now use a pellet stove, and hope
I can make it thru a winter on one tankful. This is my first year with
that pellet stove, so I am not sure???

If I did not OWN my tank, it would cost me over $100 a year to lease a
tank from them. I paid around $1000 for my tank about 8 years ago, so
it's about paid for itself. Before that, I was leasing one from them,
and because of that, I was limited to ONLY get my gas from that company.
Now I can shop for the best price.

Your price per gallon is about 16 cents (per gal) lower than I paid last
summer, but gasoline is way down now and LP (propane) is a petroleum
product. I'd probably pay about the same as you now...

Two winters ago, propane was almost $5.00 a gallon. That hurt !!!
(It had something to do with a shortage). That's what caused me to
invest in the pellet stove.

On 12/17/2015 6:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:55:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:


They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.


But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

I have a 500 gal tank. They only fill mine to 80%. But they can not fill
any tank to 100%. Even those 20lb tanks for your BBQ grill are only
filled part way. In the sun, they expand, so if they were filled 100%,
they would at least release gas, if not explode.


Another web portal user. Who won't see my reply.

When I worked for one place, they told us the 80%
capacity was already figured in, and we put 20
pounds in the 20 pounders. I thought it was 16,
but the boss said 20, and also the guy who taught
the certification course so I could pump propane.

Also read on line, Blue Rhino was at one point
put 15 pounds instead of 16. Maybe still do.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/17/2015 08:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

When I worked for one place, they told us the 80%
capacity was already figured in, and we put 20
pounds in the 20 pounders. I thought it was 16,
but the boss said 20, and also the guy who taught
the certification course so I could pump propane.

Also read on line, Blue Rhino was at one point
put 15 pounds instead of 16. Maybe still do.


I just got a 20 pound propane tank filled. It weighted 20 pounds more
than the empty tank.

--
7 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The dogma of the infallibility of the Bible is no more self-evident
than is that of the infallibility of the popes." [Thomas Huxley]

On 12/18/2015 7:05 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/17/2015 08:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

When I worked for one place, they told us the 80%
capacity was already figured in, and we put 20
pounds in the 20 pounders. I thought it was 16,
but the boss said 20, and also the guy who taught
the certification course so I could pump propane.

Also read on line, Blue Rhino was at one point
put 15 pounds instead of 16. Maybe still do.


I just got a 20 pound propane tank filled. It weighted 20 pounds more
than the empty tank.



http://www.orangecoat.com/the-truth-...-propane-tanks

These "20 lb" tanks are designed to take up to 20 pounds of propane. You
may get a pound or 2 less, depending on the temperature of the tank and
surrounding air when the tank was filled. Cooler = more propane in,
hotter = less in. Tanks can actually fit another 20% in the tank, but
that extra space is designed for expansion as the temperature rises.

In very cold winter climates, like Canada, there may be more
concern/rules about filling a tank to a complete 20 lbs. This is because
if you leave a tank outside in very cold temps, filled the tank when the
tank is cold, and then bring it into a hot basement/garage for a space
heater, the gas will expand as the tank warms. With enough of a
temperature increase, the tank's pressure relief value will release a
bit of gas. This would be less of an issue if the relief value were
bleeding to outside air.

Propane Tank Tare Weight on Collar

All propane tanks have a "tare weight" or "T.W." stamped on the collar
of the tank. For a grill sized tank you simply calculate the tare weight
+ 20 lbs, and that's how much the tank should weigh when it's full. Most
20 lb tanks have a tare weight of +/- 17 pounds when completely empty.
This means a "full" propane tank should weigh about 37 pounds.

There is also a month and year on the collar indicating the date the
tank was made. For 20 lb propane tanks, you have 12 years from the
manufacture date before the tank must be re-certified with a new date
stamped on it. The re-certification only adds 5 years before having to
re-certify again. The cost and inconvenience of re-certifying almost
always outweighs the price of a new tank.

Brand new propane tanks may come with air inside and need to be "purged"
before the first fill. Some newer tanks, like Bernzomatic, will have a
sticker on them saying they don't need to be purged within 6 months of
the manufacture date.

Purging requires a special adapter to allow a small amount of propane
in. The pressure then pushes air out of a one-way bleeder valve. Purging
may add another $3-4 dollars to a new tank, though some places don't
charge, especially if you buy the tank from them.

Internet searches suggest the following:

1 gallon of propane weighs 4.2 pounds
A "full" 20 lb cylinder should have 4.7 gallons or propane in it

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:52:37 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If I did not OWN my tank, it would cost me over $100 a year to lease a
tank from them.

This outfit is called Amerigas.

They charge $60 per year to rent the tank, with the first year free.
Of course, if you rent their tank, you don't have to pay for 10-year
inspections of the regulators and the like, but you are limited to
only getting gas from them.

Since the tank came with the house, and since I pay property tax
on it every year, I can go to anyone I want.

But Amerigas seems to be the cheapest (Suburban and Kamps being two
of the others).

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:47:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:52:37 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If I did not OWN my tank, it would cost me over $100 a year to lease a
tank from them.

This outfit is called Amerigas.

I've heard of them....

They charge $60 per year to rent the tank, with the first year free.
Of course, if you rent their tank, you don't have to pay for 10-year
inspections of the regulators and the like, but you are limited to
only getting gas from them.

That's cheap to rent the tank compared to here. It was $120 here, but
that was 8 years ago. It's either the same, or more now. (Nothing ever
goes down in price except the gas itself).

Since the tank came with the house, and since I pay property tax
on it every year, I can go to anyone I want.

Then you OWN the tank, which is great. They are not cheap!
When I bought my 500gal tank, the new ones were around $1600, but they
had these older models, and were still at $1000. I got the last one. I
asked the guy what the difference was between the older model and the
newer one. He said nothing except it's from a a different company, and
the color is different. Mine is gray, the newer ones were white. He said
the price went up because steel prices rose, and they changed companies
because they got a better deal. They were selling the old ones at the
same price they were the year before, because they wanted to get rid of
them, so to not have different colors. (like I could care about the
color).

Is there a special entry on your prop tax for the tank? I have never
seen that. We pay taxes on the home and any permanent other buildings,
and the land itself. That's all. I have a couple small sheds I built on
wheels (old hay wagon frames). They are not permanent, so no taxes. Plus
I can move them if I decide I want them closer to the house, or
whatever. I could move them if I was to move elsewhere too. When I build
livestock shelters, I dont put the posts in the ground. They are built
on top of railroad ties, and that means they can be moved, so no taxes.
(I do put trailer home anchors in the ground so they dont blow over
during storms, but that's still legal).

But Amerigas seems to be the cheapest (Suburban and Kamps being two
of the others).

The company I usually get my gas from, is a local farmer owned company
that also sells livestock feed, crop seed, and fertilizers.

On 12/17/2015 8:47 PM, M. Stradbury wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:52:37 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If I did not OWN my tank, it would cost me over $100 a year to lease a
tank from them.

This outfit is called Amerigas.

They charge $60 per year to rent the tank, with the first year free.
Of course, if you rent their tank, you don't have to pay for 10-year
inspections of the regulators and the like, but you are limited to
only getting gas from them.

Since the tank came with the house, and since I pay property tax
on it every year, I can go to anyone I want.

But Amerigas seems to be the cheapest (Suburban and Kamps being two
of the others).

Did he **** her yet?
LOL

M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Asking questions after the fact? Funny!

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:08:36 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:


I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Asking questions after the fact? Funny!

I once lived in a city and just paid my gas bill for Natural Gas. When I
moved to the country, I also was confused and somewhat intimidated by
the propane company. I called and thought they would just install a tank
and fill it. I quickly learned about the tank lease fee, other fees, and
I had to buy a regulator (on the house), and other costs that I did not
expect. And I was not allowed to install my own underground pipes, which
would have saved me quite a bit.

I was also not aware that each and every time I let the tank get
completely empty, that I would be charged for an inspection. I quickly
learned to never let the tank go below 2%. Then I learned something
else.... If the tank does go empty, DONT TELL THEM THAT AT THE OFFICE.
The same guy always fills my tank, and he told me that if I dont tell
them, he's not going to report me, or charge me for an inspection.... (A
nice guy). However, they will fill the tank faster if I DO tell them
it's empty. The BEST solution is to get it filled BEFORE it goes empty.
Especially when it's very cold outdoors.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:24:09 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If the tank does go empty, DONT TELL THEM THAT AT THE OFFICE.
The same guy always fills my tank, and he told me that if I dont tell
them, he's not going to report me, or charge me for an inspection.

What's the danger if the tank goes empty anyway?

On 12/17/2015 09:47 PM, M. Stradbury wrote:
What's the danger if the tank goes empty anyway?

The pilot lights go out. For furnaces and so forth once the pilot is out
the valve should shut off until you relight the pilot. I have a gas
range where the pilot would continue to leak gas until it's lit. No big
deal since the flow is so low.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:50:40 -0700, rbowman wrote:

The pilot lights go out. For furnaces and so forth once the pilot is out
the valve should shut off until you relight the pilot. I have a gas
range where the pilot would continue to leak gas until it's lit. No big
deal since the flow is so low.

This house has no pilots other than, I guess, the hot water heater.
The gas stove & the gas fireplace is electrically ignited.
So is the furnace.
I think the hot water heater has the typical big red knob & pilot light.

So, I guess, if the gas runs out, the only problem is that the pilot
goes out, so, we'd simply turn off the big red knob.

Is that correct?

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:47:58 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:24:09 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If the tank does go empty, DONT TELL THEM THAT AT THE OFFICE.
The same guy always fills my tank, and he told me that if I dont tell
them, he's not going to report me, or charge me for an inspection.

What's the danger if the tank goes empty anyway?

Absolutely nothing. It's a way they can screw an extra $50 or more from
a customer. If the gas was shut off for years, I could sort of
understand it, because stuff can rust and corrode. But if I run out of
gas on Monday and call them on Tuesday, there is no excuse or need to
inspect. Yet, if I tell them at the office I ran out, they will do their
useless inspection and charge me $50.

When my gas tank is filled, my furnace pilot light is OFF and cant leak
gas. My old range has the old pilot lights, so a very tiny amount of gas
can leak, but it's not enough to really cause a problem. But to be 100%
safe, and also to protect them, I told them to write on my record, to
always shut off the valve that goes to the house if I'm not home, when
they fill the tank. All that means is that I have to re-light my pilot
lights. No biggie! (only my furnace and range). My water heater is
electric.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:47:58 -0600, M. Stradbury
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:24:09 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

If the tank does go empty, DONT TELL THEM THAT AT THE OFFICE.
The same guy always fills my tank, and he told me that if I dont tell
them, he's not going to report me, or charge me for an inspection.

What's the danger if the tank goes empty anyway?

I have a cooktop that uses the always own very small
pilot lights. I think all the old gas ranges were like that.
There is no safety device built into them. There would be a
possibility that the house fills with enough gas or propane
to cause an explosion if the homeowner was gone for a long
time.
Did they do anything to check for leaks during the inspection?

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 05:50:59 -0600, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote:

I have a cooktop that uses the always own very small
pilot lights. I think all the old gas ranges were like that.
There is no safety device built into them. There would be a
possibility that the house fills with enough gas or propane
to cause an explosion if the homeowner was gone for a long
time.
Did they do anything to check for leaks during the inspection?

They did that when I first connected this system up.

They also did it when they insisted my (working) regulator had to be
replaced because it was an old model. I bitched about that, because they
said it would cost me over $100. They finally just changed it at no cost
to me, then pressure tested the system. (This is one advantage to
getting gas from the same supplier).

On 12/17/15 7:08 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Asking questions after the fact? Funny!

Nope, sad really. He must have skipped school the day they covered
critical thinking skills...

--
Life is tough.....it's even tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne

M. Stradbury wrote:

I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

yeah, they don't fill it all the way up.


They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

not too horrible a price. no idea what the hazmat
fee might be for. ask them.


They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

any time you run a tank out here it costs extra
for inspection to make sure it didn't run out from
a leak or whatever. IMO a scam regulation.

don't run it out! ask the previous owners or propane
company for yearly records to see how much you might
use and check the tank level periodically to make sure
you don't run out...


I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

sounds mostly routine.


songbird

On 12/17/2015 5:55 PM, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

Pretty normal The hazmat fee is a rip off. It should be just the cost
of doing business, but they make it a line item. Get an oil change on
your car and you may see an additional "disposal" fee. Just a way of
advertising a $29 oil change and charging $32.

This is what Amerigas has to say:
HazMat & Safety Compliance Fee - This fee, which is assessed to propane
deliveries and service calls, helps to offset a portion of the costs the
Company incurs to comply with federal, state and local government
regulations, including, but not limited to, hazardous materials,
homeland security, emergency preparedness and workplace safety. It is
also used to fund, among other things, employee safety training and
inspections, cylinder re-qualification, and environmental compliance.

On 12/17/2015 03:55 PM, M. Stradbury wrote:
But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?


The inspection fee might be because of the change of ownership. The
hazmat fee is one of those little gouges like the odd fees on a landline
phone bill.

A few years back I was on an autofill plan. A new driver tpped up the
tank, which took about 8 gallons. The hazmat and delivery fee exceeded
the price of the gas. I bitched, and they refunded the extra fees. About
a month later, the same thing occurred. That's when I dropped the
autofill. I keep an eye on the tank and when it's getting down I tell
them to fill it. The Amerigas office is on one of the routes I walk for
lunch so it's no big deal to stop by.

rbowman wrote:

A few years back I was on an autofill plan.

A neighbor told me that the same thing happens when he's on the
autofill plan. They come and put in a small amount of gallons
and then he gets hit with the hazmat fee over and over again.

He says they charge more if you're on an "as-call" basis, so,
he said what he does is not pay them.

When you don't pay them, they don't show up, even if you're on
a schedule.

Then, when he gets down to about 20%, he pays them for the last
fill. Once his check clears, they come.

So, he says, it's a way that he gets to be "on-call" at auto-fill
prices.

On 12/17/2015 09:50 PM, Clément wrote:
So, he says, it's a way that he gets to be "on-call" at auto-fill
prices.

I'm in a rural area but typically the truck is out my way once a week. I
just ask them to fill it when they're in the area and they don't charge
for the on-call. If I ran out completely or something and got them out
for a special trip, then they'd hit me for the call charge. I've only
got a 100 gallon tank so it's not like i'm going to suck the truck dry.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 23:53:49 -0600, rbowman wrote:

On 12/17/2015 09:50 PM, Clément wrote:
So, he says, it's a way that he gets to be "on-call" at auto-fill
prices.

I'm in a rural area but typically the truck is out my way once a week. I
just ask them to fill it when they're in the area and they don't charge
for the on-call. If I ran out completely or something and got them out
for a special trip, then they'd hit me for the call charge. I've only
got a 100 gallon tank so it's not like i'm going to suck the truck dry..

My parents had a 500 gallon for the farmhouse. The coop had a deal
for people to contract ahead for a cheaper price. I think it included a
keep full provision without trip charges.
The irrigation wells here on propane usually have at least one 1000
gallon tank, sometimes two.
There was a time when the coops would use the propane trailers to haul
anhydrous ammonia in season and vice versa. I don't know if they still do
that.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 12/18/2015 05:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
My parents had a 500 gallon for the farmhouse. The coop had a deal
for people to contract ahead for a cheaper price. I think it included a
keep full provision without trip charges.

I buy for the winter in August. The way the market is going this year, I
may lose on the deal. However the year propane went through the roof, I
made out.

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:50:52 +0000 (UTC), Clément
wrote:

rbowman wrote:

A few years back I was on an autofill plan.

A neighbor told me that the same thing happens when he's on the
autofill plan. They come and put in a small amount of gallons
and then he gets hit with the hazmat fee over and over again.

He says they charge more if you're on an "as-call" basis, so,
he said what he does is not pay them.

When you don't pay them, they don't show up, even if you're on
a schedule.

Then, when he gets down to about 20%, he pays them for the last
fill. Once his check clears, they come.

So, he says, it's a way that he gets to be "on-call" at auto-fill
prices.

I'll have to think about that for a while.

I have oil and I have been lax about checkign out billing and
competition, but early on I did somethingr a little bit like your
story.

To get automatic delivery they wanted me to sign a contract. I'm sure
I coudl cancel at any time, but I coudln't make up my mind about
anything so I didn't read it or write back. They come automatically
anyhow. They want the business.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:55:01 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"
wrote:

I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

Best not to fill it all the way then, but consult with your clergyman.

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes),

That's ridiculous. How could those straps cause earthquakes?

and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

You could call another local company, as if you were a prospective
customer. Don't lie, just say you want to know the charges. Some day
you may move again so you can say you expect to move. I'd be really
surpised if they made up the hazmat fee or changed more than they
should, because for 20 dollars it's not worth losing a customer.

As to inspection, someone can always agree to get a service, and they
will change what they charge. One should ask how much first. If they
said, We're not going to fill your tank unless you let us inspect the
system and the charge is $100, what would you do? I can see why they
want to inspect. Even if they wouldn't be legally liable, they don't
want to morally liable or to have anything remotely to do with an
explosion, and who knows what condition the previous owners left it
in. Even if you had a house inspection, they vary in quality and
usually don't have propane specialists doing them.

I'm sure someone would have filled your tank no questions asked. If
I can find someone who will say my car passed its safety inspecition
even though he didn't inspect it or doesn't know how, there are
people who would fill your tank. Plus others who aren't old enough or
educated enough or mature enough to foresee what can go wrong, who
wouldnt' think they were doing anything wrong. Who might not be
doing anything wrong by many standards, because after it's your
responsibility and you probably had a home inspection before you
bought the house.


My buddy just had his house inspected so he could refinance the
mortgage. She was thorough compared to the previous guy, took her 50
minutes, plus travel time, plus maybe another hour's work at home,
(plus she loses time when some people cancel when she's already there
or on the way and she's not going to sue etc.) but she charges $400.
At least $100 an hour when she's working. She started off a a
secretary in their office, then someone lost his driver's license and
she had to drive him around, and she saw what he did and said, "Hey I
could do that".

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

[8~{} Uncle LP Monster

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

[8~{} Uncle LP Monster

Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 10:40:53 PM UTC-6, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

[8~{} Uncle LP Monster

Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

I have my doubts that the OP knew that. You and I have had experience with propane for something other than operating a barbecue grill and I believe you understand the scientific principles explaining the behavior of LPG. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 10:40:53 PM UTC-6, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

[8~{} Uncle LP Monster

Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

I have my doubts that the OP knew that. You and I have had experience with propane for something other than operating a barbecue grill and I believe you understand the scientific principles explaining the behavior of LPG. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

They always fill by the weight, not by the volume.

On 12/19/2015 7:05 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:
Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

I have my doubts that the OP knew that. You and I have had experience
with propane for something other than operating a barbecue grill and I
believe you understand the scientific principles explaining the
behavior of LPG. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

They always fill by the weight, not by the volume.

I've had camp ground guy fill by volume, more than
once. He opened the screw driver slot valve, and
filled till liquid came out the vent hole.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 6:05:54 PM UTC-6, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 10:40:53 PM UTC-6, Tony Hwang wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

[8~{} Uncle LP Monster

Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

I have my doubts that the OP knew that. You and I have had experience with propane for something other than operating a barbecue grill and I believe you understand the scientific principles explaining the behavior of LPG. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~~{} Uncle Gassy Monster

They always fill by the weight, not by the volume.

That resembles my dining habits. (€¢€¿€¢)

[8~{} Uncle Hungry Monster

On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 17:05:50 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

They always fill by the weight, not by the volume.

Are you sure?
Propane is a liquid when they pump it into your tank from their truck.

Also, they charge you by the gallon.
Their meter on the truck measures in gallons.

Although the meter on the tank measures in percent.

Of course, that doesn't mean they don't fill by weight.
But, it implies they measure gallons.

On 12/17/2015 11:40 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Right that is common knowledge as well as safety issue. I saw few times
camping trailer tanks blowing safety valve spewing cloudy gas into air
during summer camping.

I've never done this, but that cloudy gas
should be explosive flammable. Go there and
strike a match. Real blast. Do not try this
at home, we are professionals.

--
..
Christopher [Third Degree Burns] Young
learn more about Jesus [Just saw Him....]
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/17/2015 11:19 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled
all the way because room in the tank is needed for
the liquid propane to evaporate into gas

CY: The extra space is for hot days when the liquid
expands. If it expanded "too much", the pressure
relief vent would release liquid propane. Which would
vaporize rapidly, and create a fire hazzard.

and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into
the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from
a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the
tank thus a larger tank is needed.

CY: What's more an issue is how much liquid and
steel is there to provide heat for the boiling
liquid. Also the temperature of the air around the
tank, and the surface of the tank to absorb heat.


That's why you can't run a large furnace from a
20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank
can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the
furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)

CY: I've run a furnace from a 20 pounder in the
winter. It can be done. The tank doesn't last
very long.




[8~{} Uncle LP Monster


CY: The heating and AC guy who's helped friends
out when they ran out of LP.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 11:19:39 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)


When I run my furnace off of a 20 lb tank, I use another 20 lb tank
to heat the tank used for the furnace so that the liquid boils faster.

Cousin "BOOM" Monster

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 11:19:39 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC-6, M. Stradbury wrote:
I just bought a house with a 1,000 gallon propane tank owned
by the house and property tax is paid on the tank which is
a California-only thing I hear.

They just filled the tank up to 85% (they wouldn't fill further
they told my wife, otherwise it could blow up, they said).

They told me the price is $1.45 per gallon of propane plus
about a twenty dollar "hazmat" fee whatever that means, for a
total price a bit over a thousand dollars for the fill.

They said they "inspected" the system (which was existing), and
they inspected the tank which is on on four-inch thick concrete
slab bolted down by straps for earthquakes), and they charge $100
for that inspection (my wife let them in the house but she doesn't
know what they did).

I never had propane before.
I don't begrudge them anything.

But, I also don't know what's normal.
Is this normal stuff?

It's my understanding that the tank isn't filled all the way because room in the tank is needed for the liquid propane to evaporate into gas and the gas, not liquid propane is what is fed into the home. The higher the demand for propane gas from a tank, the more surface area is needed inside the tank thus a larger tank is needed. That's why you can't run a large furnace from a 20 pound cylinder. The liquid in the small tank can't boil into gas fast enough to supply the furnace with enough gas except for testing. (ヅ)


When I run my furnace off of a 20 lb tank, I use another 20 lb tank
to heat the tank used for the furnace so that the liquid boils faster.

Cousin "BOOM" Monster

There is winter grade propane.

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:59:52 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

There is winter grade propane.

Really?

You sure?

Propane is a simple chemical.

C-C-C

How do they make 3 carbons (and a few hydrogens) a "winter" grade?