We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
--
Maggie

Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and oven.

On 11/24/2015 6:14 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?

--
Maggie

On 11/25/2015 11:18 AM, Muggles wrote:

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?


Enjoy the extra light. You are using only 14 watts. The factor in the
rating of the fixture is based on the heat output of the bulb and you
are putting out far less with the LED.

For years we use watts for rating bulbs, but in reality, lumen is what
counts for brightness. That is how you can compare the given light of
incandescent, fluorescent, and LED.

We also like the daylight type bulb too.

On 11/25/2015 3:25 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/25/2015 11:18 AM, Muggles wrote:

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and
oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?


Enjoy the extra light. You are using only 14 watts. The factor in the
rating of the fixture is based on the heat output of the bulb and you
are putting out far less with the LED.

For years we use watts for rating bulbs, but in reality, lumen is what
counts for brightness. That is how you can compare the given light of
incandescent, fluorescent, and LED.

We also like the daylight type bulb too.

I sure do love the extra daylight from that bulb with so many cloudy
days in the fall and winter.

--
Maggie

On 11/25/2015 4:32 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 11/25/2015 3:25 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/25/2015 11:18 AM, Muggles wrote:

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and
oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?


Enjoy the extra light. You are using only 14 watts. The factor in the
rating of the fixture is based on the heat output of the bulb and you
are putting out far less with the LED.

For years we use watts for rating bulbs, but in reality, lumen is what
counts for brightness. That is how you can compare the given light of
incandescent, fluorescent, and LED.

We also like the daylight type bulb too.

I sure do love the extra daylight from that bulb with so many cloudy
days in the fall and winter.

Move someplace sunnier! :

(seriously)

When I moved here (S.Az), I saw a sign in the airport claiming
"360 days of sunshine/yr" and laughed. "Yeah, sure". I've since
learned that it is pretty close to the truth! So much so that
cloudy/overcast days are REALLY noticeable!

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:18:23 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:14 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?
No problem . Use it in good health.

On 11/25/2015 3:52 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:18:23 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:14 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Hi,
That 75W refers to Lumen 75W bulb will produce, I don't think it refers
to power rating in case of LED. I understand it as bright as 75W bulb.
You already have answer to your on question. My house is all converted
to LED including every thing in the garage. except ones in fridge and oven.

Well, I recently wanted to replace a bulb in my bathroom. The light
socket had been labeled as 60W, so I found a GE bulb LED replacement,
bought it, and put it in. I just realized that I bought a 75W
replacement LED daylight bulb and says it uses 14W, and it says it's
lumens is 1350.

I can take it back and buy the 60W replacement LED bulb, but do I really
need to because the 75W replacement says it only uses 14W, which isn't
even close to the 60W the socket is labeled as?
No problem . Use it in good health.


Thanks for the info!

--
Maggie

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

The 60w is the heat shedding ability of the luminaire. With a 60w, U/L
says it should still run at a (fire) safe temperature. You will not
burn your house down if you use a 75w equivalent bulb that actually
uses 4w or even 40w.
If it was close, I would worry a lot more about the longevity of a LED
or other electronic bulb running at a "safe" temperature for an
incandescent. (perhaps 100-129f)
At 4w I see no issue at all.

On 11/24/2015 6:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.


The 60w is the heat shedding ability of the luminaire. With a 60w, U/L
says it should still run at a (fire) safe temperature. You will not
burn your house down if you use a 75w equivalent bulb that actually
uses 4w or even 40w.

Ahh that's good to know.

If it was close, I would worry a lot more about the longevity of a LED
or other electronic bulb running at a "safe" temperature for an
incandescent. (perhaps 100-129f)
At 4w I see no issue at all.


ok Thanks!



--
Maggie

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)

On 11/24/2015 6:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)


I thought I bought the 60W LED replacement bulb, but ended up buying a
75W LED. I guess they were sitting next to each other. Anyway, I ended
up buying the 75W when I thought I was buying a 60W. It has 1350 lumens
according to the package. So, according to what I've read in a couple
other responses, I should be OK using the 75W LED replacement bulb in
the 60W socket because the 75W bulb still uses less wattage (14W), right?

--
Maggie

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:24:18 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)


I thought I bought the 60W LED replacement bulb, but ended up buying a
75W LED. I guess they were sitting next to each other. Anyway, I ended
up buying the 75W when I thought I was buying a 60W. It has 1350 lumens
according to the package. So, according to what I've read in a couple
other responses, I should be OK using the 75W LED replacement bulb in
the 60W socket because the 75W bulb still uses less wattage (14W), right?

You should be fine. The biggest issue with the 75w equivalent is size.
I have seen some "60w only" pendant lights that would not hold the 75w
CFL.

On 11/25/2015 11:23 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:24:18 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)


I thought I bought the 60W LED replacement bulb, but ended up buying a
75W LED. I guess they were sitting next to each other. Anyway, I ended
up buying the 75W when I thought I was buying a 60W. It has 1350 lumens
according to the package. So, according to what I've read in a couple
other responses, I should be OK using the 75W LED replacement bulb in
the 60W socket because the 75W bulb still uses less wattage (14W), right?

You should be fine. The biggest issue with the 75w equivalent is size.
I have seen some "60w only" pendant lights that would not hold the 75w
CFL.


I guess I got lucky because it fit just fine.

--
Maggie

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:23:08 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:24:18 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)


I thought I bought the 60W LED replacement bulb, but ended up buying a
75W LED. I guess they were sitting next to each other. Anyway, I ended
up buying the 75W when I thought I was buying a 60W. It has 1350 lumens
according to the package. So, according to what I've read in a couple
other responses, I should be OK using the 75W LED replacement bulb in
the 60W socket because the 75W bulb still uses less wattage (14W), right?

You should be fine. The biggest issue with the 75w equivalent is size.
I have seen some "60w only" pendant lights that would not hold the 75w
CFL.
I've seen 60 watt ceiling fixtures that wouldn't hols a 40 watt
equivalent cfl. without changing to a longer glass.

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:56:47 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:23:08 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:24:18 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 11/24/2015 6:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.
It's not the light output that limits the wattage a lamp is limited
to, it's the heat - which is a function of real watts. You could put a
blinding 60 watt LED in if you could find one - equivalent to well
over 240 watts in light output (;umens)


I thought I bought the 60W LED replacement bulb, but ended up buying a
75W LED. I guess they were sitting next to each other. Anyway, I ended
up buying the 75W when I thought I was buying a 60W. It has 1350 lumens
according to the package. So, according to what I've read in a couple
other responses, I should be OK using the 75W LED replacement bulb in
the 60W socket because the 75W bulb still uses less wattage (14W), right?

You should be fine. The biggest issue with the 75w equivalent is size.
I have seen some "60w only" pendant lights that would not hold the 75w
CFL.
I've seen 60 watt ceiling fixtures that wouldn't hols a 40 watt
equivalent cfl. without changing to a longer glass.

I've been seeing a therapist to enable me to accept CFL's in place of
real light bulbs.

Last week I asked him about teaching me to accept LEDs and he said
we'd have to start at the beginning again. I feel like I've wasted 2
years and all that money for therapy. (Insurance won't pay.)

Is there some adapter I could get that would enable my acceptance of
CFLs to be converted to acceptance of LEDs? Either an electrcric or
an alphabetic adapter?

On 11/24/2015 4:59 PM, Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Yes -- with some reservations.

First, of course, if the incandescent is in a dimmable fixture, then
you'd need a dimmable LED (or CFL) bulb. At the very least, you
will be disappointed if you try to dim a (LED/CFL) bulb that was
not designed for this form of operation.

[And, you'll probably also be disappointed if you try to dim a
DIMMABLE CFL -- they suck!]

*Running* (burning?), an LED (or CFL) bulb draws considerably less power
than it's "light equivalent" incandescent counterpart. So, if the light
was left on forever, you could conceivably approach the "power rating" of
the socket (and CIRCUIT!). Power translates into heat that is primarily
dissipated in the socket.

But, lights turn on and off. And, the mechanisms that are used to
turn them on/off vary. During these transitions, the electrical
behavior of incandescents and LED (or CFL) differ.

There are very large, reactive currents associated with the non-incandescent
alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it is common for these
sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup and/or when abruptly
switched off -- considerably higher than the currents that would be required
for a "light equivalent" incandescent!

In many applications, the control circuitry for these lights is designed
to be pretty marginal (typical "consumer" approach -- save every penny that
isn't REQUIRED by the product). E.g., a 60W lamp is a tiny load so the
circuitry to drive it wouldn't be as capable as, for example, a "light
switch" that can typically handle a 15A (1800W) load!

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

Ask yourself why you really "need" more light.

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Or, you can buy one of the "programmable" lights that you can change
color dynamically: "Hmmm... I feel like RED for dinner, tonight..."

[I'd not recommend that (expensive) option; the bulbs in question
are hackable]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:00 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

I agree with Don. Also, beware using LEDs as the load on a timer/motion
sensor switch which does not use a neutral (white) wire. In this case, the
circuit that powers the timer or sensor uses the load as a 'virtual' ground
at a current insufficient to light a filament, but enough to light LEDz,
albeit intermittently and dim. I did this in my garden shed (motion sensor
switch) and needed to put one halogen bulb in the load or else the LEDs all
flickered when they were supposed to be "off". Also, CFLs do something that
is "sensed" by the motion sensor as motion.

On 11/24/2015 8:10 PM, Mike Duffy wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:00 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

I agree with Don. Also, beware using LEDs as the load on a timer/motion
sensor switch which does not use a neutral (white) wire. In this case, the
circuit that powers the timer or sensor uses the load as a 'virtual' ground
at a current insufficient to light a filament, but enough to light LEDz,
albeit intermittently and dim. I did this in my garden shed (motion sensor
switch) and needed to put one halogen bulb in the load or else the LEDs all
flickered when they were supposed to be "off". Also, CFLs do something that
is "sensed" by the motion sensor as motion.

Oooo! I hadn't thought of that!

Many of our light switches (in the house) are illuminated (I suspect a
small neon bulb?). Of course, the bulb is only lit when the switch
is OFF (and there is potential across the switch's contacts THROUGH
the load -- light bulb!)

So, like your comment (above), current is flowing through the CFL/LED
(as it would have been for an incandescent -- but the incandescent won't
light, noticeably!)

[Trivia: with these sorts of light switches, the LACK of illumination
indicates the bulb(s) are dead (or, power to the circuit is out) -- for
obvious reasons!]

Mike Duffy wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:00 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

I agree with Don. Also, beware using LEDs as the load on a timer/motion
sensor switch which does not use a neutral (white) wire. In this case, the
circuit that powers the timer or sensor uses the load as a 'virtual' ground
at a current insufficient to light a filament, but enough to light LEDz,
albeit intermittently and dim. I did this in my garden shed (motion sensor
switch) and needed to put one halogen bulb in the load or else the LEDs all
flickered when they were supposed to be "off". Also, CFLs do something that
is "sensed" by the motion sensor as motion.

Only in some cases depending on what kinda sensor it is.
My GDO lights, entrance hallway lights are LED and they are
controlled by motion sensor. No problems. May be one has to
know what he is doing?

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:23:29 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Mike Duffy wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:00 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

I agree with Don. Also, beware using LEDs as the load on a timer/motion
sensor switch which does not use a neutral (white) wire. In this case, the
circuit that powers the timer or sensor uses the load as a 'virtual' ground
at a current insufficient to light a filament, but enough to light LEDz,
albeit intermittently and dim. I did this in my garden shed (motion sensor
switch) and needed to put one halogen bulb in the load or else the LEDs all
flickered when they were supposed to be "off". Also, CFLs do something that
is "sensed" by the motion sensor as motion.

Only in some cases depending on what kinda sensor it is.
My GDO lights, entrance hallway lights are LED and they are
controlled by motion sensor. No problems. May be one has to
know what he is doing?

As long as the motion detector has a neutral connection (white wire)
and a relay it will work with just about anything. The problem is when
the power to run it is scavenged through the load (no neutral).
Usually they flicker when "off".
The small amount of current buffers up in the little switcher power
supply capacitor and discharges like a relaxation oscillator.
The other thing I have seen is very low current loads may not be
enough to reliably cut a solid state switching device off.
I have an optical to RCA adapter on my TV that I tried to control with
an SSR (off the USB port). Until I put the amplifier in the load path,
it was flickering on and off too.
It does not take much of an incandescent bulb (11 watts works) or a
small transformer wall wart to get these things working right.

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:23:29 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Mike Duffy wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:53:00 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

I agree with Don. Also, beware using LEDs as the load on a timer/motion
sensor switch which does not use a neutral (white) wire. In this case, the
circuit that powers the timer or sensor uses the load as a 'virtual' ground
at a current insufficient to light a filament, but enough to light LEDz,
albeit intermittently and dim. I did this in my garden shed (motion sensor
switch) and needed to put one halogen bulb in the load or else the LEDs all
flickered when they were supposed to be "off". Also, CFLs do something that
is "sensed" by the motion sensor as motion.

Only in some cases depending on what kinda sensor it is.
My GDO lights, entrance hallway lights are LED and they are
controlled by motion sensor. No problems. May be one has to
know what he is doing?
No. you just need to be using a motion sensor "that uses a neutral"
- in other words a 3 wire device.. If you have a 2 wire device it
doesn't matter how smart you are.

There are very large, reactive currents associated with the non-incandescent
alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it is common for these
sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup and/or when abruptly
switched off -- considerably higher than the currents that would be required
for a "light equivalent" incandescent!



While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw a very large current surge at turn on?

Mark

On 11/25/2015 7:01 AM, wrote:


There are very large, reactive currents associated with the
non-incandescent alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it
is common for these sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup
and/or when abruptly switched off -- considerably higher than the currents
that would be required for a "light equivalent" incandescent!

While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw a
very large current surge at turn on?

From
http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/jan/compact-fluorescent-tribulations:

"The first support call came from a customer with thirteen 23-watt CFL
bulbs installed in a workspace, as replacements for 60 W incandescent
bulbs. He indicated that the lights held in the ON position after only
a few actuations of our control relay.

[note that 13*23W = 299W -- the equivalent of *5* 60W bulbs. Hardly
anything to "worry" about!]

"We could not believe that, so we replaced the incandescents in our
test rig with one CFL bulb. It was true! A relay that would run 100,000
cycles, switching asynchronously on numerous incandescent bulbs ran 10
to 100 cycles with a single CFL. Astonishing.

[asynchronously == no regard for zero-crossings of AC waveform. 1000X
*fewer* relay cycles before CFL "wore out" the relay]

"So the race ensued to determine the failure cause. Relays stick closed
due to high switching currents, but how can a CFL bulb that draws 23 watts
suck that much current, enough to weld the contacts on a 10 amp relay,
one rated for incandescent service? We set up a fixture with a current
monitor to see.

[10A relay; 299W is 3A]

"We found that some CFL bulbs draw huge inrush currents, peaking up to 17
amps, for a duration of 300 us or more!"

[half a 60Hz cycle is ~8300 us]

Watch the videos referenced in
https://electricalnews.com/photocontrol-failures-in-the-field-its-not-always-a-power-surge/
-- which essentially
restates the issue more graphically.

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:35:47 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 11/25/2015 7:01 AM, wrote:


There are very large, reactive currents associated with the
non-incandescent alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it
is common for these sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup
and/or when abruptly switched off -- considerably higher than the currents
that would be required for a "light equivalent" incandescent!

While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw a
very large current surge at turn on?

From
http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/jan/compact-fluorescent-tribulations:

"The first support call came from a customer with thirteen 23-watt CFL
bulbs installed in a workspace, as replacements for 60 W incandescent
bulbs. He indicated that the lights held in the ON position after only
a few actuations of our control relay.

[note that 13*23W = 299W -- the equivalent of *5* 60W bulbs. Hardly
anything to "worry" about!]

"We could not believe that, so we replaced the incandescents in our
test rig with one CFL bulb. It was true! A relay that would run 100,000
cycles, switching asynchronously on numerous incandescent bulbs ran 10
to 100 cycles with a single CFL. Astonishing.

[asynchronously == no regard for zero-crossings of AC waveform. 1000X
*fewer* relay cycles before CFL "wore out" the relay]

"So the race ensued to determine the failure cause. Relays stick closed
due to high switching currents, but how can a CFL bulb that draws 23 watts
suck that much current, enough to weld the contacts on a 10 amp relay,
one rated for incandescent service? We set up a fixture with a current
monitor to see.

[10A relay; 299W is 3A]

"We found that some CFL bulbs draw huge inrush currents, peaking up to 17
amps, for a duration of 300 us or more!"

[half a 60Hz cycle is ~8300 us]

Watch the videos referenced in
https://electricalnews.com/photocontrol-failures-in-the-field-its-not-always-a-power-surge/
-- which essentially
restates the issue more graphically.


Interesting. I would be curious about the relay tho. A lot of
"incandescent only" relays look pretty wimpy because they assume that
to be purely resistive. That is one problem with "engineering".
Instead of "how strong can I make it" the tendency is "how small/cheap
can I get away with".

On 11/25/2015 9:21 AM, wrote:

Watch the videos referenced in
https://electricalnews.com/photocontrol-failures-in-the-field-its-not-always-a-power-surge/
-- which essentially
restates the issue more graphically.

Interesting. I would be curious about the relay tho. A lot of
"incandescent only" relays look pretty wimpy because they assume that
to be purely resistive.

Incandescent lamps only represent a "sizeable" load on startup. Once
the filament gets warm, current approaches that of a purely resistive
load. And, as startup can (theoretically) occur at any point in the
(half) waveform, the chances of the cold filament encountering PEAK
line voltage is small. E.g., if the instantaneous line voltage is
20V, then even a 10X reduction in cold resistance makes the lamp
look like a *warm* lamp seeing 200V (instead of 170V that it
would normally see at peak).

CFL/LED ballasts, OTOH, are *always* reactive -- rarely have power factor
correction. So, that "surge" happens every (half) cycle. And, ALWAYS
at the peak of the cycle (when the bridge is conducting!).

*Opening* the relay at this time usually poses the biggest risk for
contact weld as current is already flowing and wants to continue to
flow across the ever widening gap between the contacts. So, you draw
an arc and start melting metal.

That is one problem with "engineering".
Instead of "how strong can I make it" the tendency is "how small/cheap
can I get away with".

Engineering is the endless pursuit of the "least bad" solution -- acknowledging
that all solutions are "bad" in some way...

wrote:


There are very large, reactive currents associated with the non-incandescent
alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it is common for these
sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup and/or when abruptly
switched off -- considerably higher than the currents that would be required
for a "light equivalent" incandescent!



While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw a very large current surge at turn on?

Mark

Of course most load has reactive inductance. 2*Pi*f is inductive
reactance value.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...


While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw
a very large current surge at turn on?

Mark

Of course most load has reactive inductance. 2*Pi*f is inductive reactance
value.

The incandescent bulbs draw a large ammount of startup current because the
reistance is very low before the filiment comes up to the operating
temperature. Same as with most common conductors except carbon and most
simicondcuctors.

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:01:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:



There are very large, reactive currents associated with the non-incandescent
alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it is common for these
sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup and/or when abruptly
switched off -- considerably higher than the currents that would be required
for a "light equivalent" incandescent!



While what you say is true, you do know that incandescent bulbs ALSO draw a very large current surge at turn on?

Mark
But with a much lower rate of rize than the solid state stuff.

On 11/24/2015 7:53 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/24/2015 4:59 PM, Muggles wrote:
We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Yes -- with some reservations.

First, of course, if the incandescent is in a dimmable fixture, then
you'd need a dimmable LED (or CFL) bulb. At the very least, you
will be disappointed if you try to dim a (LED/CFL) bulb that was
not designed for this form of operation.

[And, you'll probably also be disappointed if you try to dim a
DIMMABLE CFL -- they suck!]

*Running* (burning?), an LED (or CFL) bulb draws considerably less power
than it's "light equivalent" incandescent counterpart. So, if the light
was left on forever, you could conceivably approach the "power rating" of
the socket (and CIRCUIT!). Power translates into heat that is primarily
dissipated in the socket.

But, lights turn on and off. And, the mechanisms that are used to
turn them on/off vary. During these transitions, the electrical
behavior of incandescents and LED (or CFL) differ.

There are very large, reactive currents associated with the
non-incandescent
alternatives. So, when driven by relays, triacs, etc. it is common for
these
sorts of lights to draw very large currents on startup and/or when abruptly
switched off -- considerably higher than the currents that would be
required
for a "light equivalent" incandescent!

In many applications, the control circuitry for these lights is designed
to be pretty marginal (typical "consumer" approach -- save every penny that
isn't REQUIRED by the product). E.g., a 60W lamp is a tiny load so the
circuitry to drive it wouldn't be as capable as, for example, a "light
switch" that can typically handle a 15A (1800W) load!

Using LED/CFL in these places can cause the control circuit to fail
such that the light never lights *or* never extinguishes! What's
worse, instead of a burnt out bulb, you end up with a burnt out
*appliance*!

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

Ask yourself why you really "need" more light.

I am over wintering some plants in the room, so I need some additional
light for them.


There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.


Or, you can buy one of the "programmable" lights that you can change
color dynamically: "Hmmm... I feel like RED for dinner, tonight..."

[I'd not recommend that (expensive) option; the bulbs in question
are hackable]

I did see some of those programmable lights, but they seemed like a bit
of overkill for just adding some additional light for plants.

--
Maggie

On 11/25/2015 9:41 AM, Muggles wrote:

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

Ask yourself why you really "need" more light.

I am over wintering some plants in the room, so I need some additional
light for them.

If you are just putting the bulb in a typical fixture with a mechanical
switch, youo should have no/few problems regardless of (practical)
"size". Do note that different spectra result in different growth
patterns. E.g., flowering plants tend to like the "blue-er" wavelengths.

Note that this is not the same as the "color temperature" of the bulb
but, rather, specific wavelengths of light in that composite "white".

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

Or, you can buy one of the "programmable" lights that you can change
color dynamically: "Hmmm... I feel like RED for dinner, tonight..."

[I'd not recommend that (expensive) option; the bulbs in question
are hackable]

I did see some of those programmable lights, but they seemed like a bit
of overkill for just adding some additional light for plants.

You have an understated way of describing a ~$70 purchase! :

On 11/25/2015 10:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/25/2015 9:41 AM, Muggles wrote:

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

Ask yourself why you really "need" more light.

I am over wintering some plants in the room, so I need some additional
light for them.

If you are just putting the bulb in a typical fixture with a mechanical
switch, youo should have no/few problems regardless of (practical)
"size". Do note that different spectra result in different growth
patterns. E.g., flowering plants tend to like the "blue-er" wavelengths.

hmmm I read that the "red" wavelength promoted flowering and the "blue"
one was more for the foliage?

Note that this is not the same as the "color temperature" of the bulb
but, rather, specific wavelengths of light in that composite "white".

Understood...

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are
the
hardest to find.

Or, you can buy one of the "programmable" lights that you can change
color dynamically: "Hmmm... I feel like RED for dinner, tonight..."

[I'd not recommend that (expensive) option; the bulbs in question
are hackable]

I did see some of those programmable lights, but they seemed like a bit
of overkill for just adding some additional light for plants.

You have an understated way of describing a ~$70 purchase! :


LOL

--
Maggie

On 11/25/2015 10:02 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 11/25/2015 10:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/25/2015 9:41 AM, Muggles wrote:

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

Ask yourself why you really "need" more light.

I am over wintering some plants in the room, so I need some additional
light for them.

If you are just putting the bulb in a typical fixture with a mechanical
switch, youo should have no/few problems regardless of (practical)
"size". Do note that different spectra result in different growth
patterns. E.g., flowering plants tend to like the "blue-er" wavelengths.

hmmm I read that the "red" wavelength promoted flowering and the "blue"
one was more for the foliage?

shrug I could well have misremembered the details. It's been 40 years
since I was trying to grow anything indoors! ;-)

Nowadays, we count on the Sun to provide the optimal mix -- almost
unavoidable when the things you're growing are 15+ feet tall/wide!

Note that this is not the same as the "color temperature" of the bulb
but, rather, specific wavelengths of light in that composite "white".

Understood...

Getting this level of detail from an OTC product may be difficult.
Unless you are specifically purchasing a "grow light"

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 11/25/2015 7:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.

That ignores the fact that there is something that turns the lamp on and off.

Do you think you could put **600** of those "60W light equivalent" lamps
on a 20A circuit (2400W)?

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:38:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 11/25/2015 7:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.

That ignores the fact that there is something that turns the lamp on and off.

Do you think you could put **600** of those "60W light equivalent" lamps
on a 20A circuit (2400W)?
You could if you sequentially switched them. Turning them all on at
once would turn the switch into an arc welder if it didn't trip the
breaker.

I have 7 9 watt LEDs on a normal switch and you cna hear it when you
turn them on..

On 11/25/2015 2:51 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:38:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 11/25/2015 7:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.

That ignores the fact that there is something that turns the lamp on and off.

Do you think you could put **600** of those "60W light equivalent" lamps
on a 20A circuit (2400W)?
You could if you sequentially switched them. Turning them all on at
once would turn the switch into an arc welder if it didn't trip the
breaker.

I have 7 9 watt LEDs on a normal switch and you cna hear it when you
turn them on..

Yup. You're essentially driving a (momentary) short as all those caps
soak up charge!

Don Y wrote:
On 11/25/2015 7:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.

That ignores the fact that there is something that turns the lamp on and
off.

Do you think you could put **600** of those "60W light equivalent" lamps
on a 20A circuit (2400W)?

Most loads have inductive reactance. Z=2*pi*f*L

On 11/25/2015 8:50 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:59:28 -0600, Muggles wrote
in

We've been moving from using the incandescent light bulbs to using LED
bulbs over the last few months. I was wondering if the socket says to
use a 60W bulb, can I replace it with an LED bulb that is technically a
replacement for a 75W bulb when in reality it only draws the equivalent
of 13.5W?

Or do I need to stick with finding a replacement LED for 60W
(specifically) that technically only uses 4W?

There's so many choices of LED bulbs, and then there's soft white, warm
light, natural light, etc. It seems the natural LED light bulbs are the
hardest to find.

When the socket limits the bulb used to 60watts, that means the socket
itself and the fixture it is in, have been designed to handle a
maximum of 60w of thermal load. A CFL or LED that is rated at 13.5w
will be fine if it physically fits in the fixture.


Great! thanks.

--
Maggie

cob grow lights from cobgrowlights nice bright purple/pink. Good for your skin I heard.