There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

On 11/22/2015 10:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?


You are still saddled with "special media" (only to the extent that this
apparently is for Zip-Loc brand) but Zip-Loc makes a manual vacuum
sealer for their bags.

At only $9 it would be worth a shot.

http://tinyurl.com/p4s6ewc

On 11/22/2015 10:02 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?


You are still saddled with "special media" (only to the extent that this
apparently is for Zip-Loc brand) but Zip-Loc makes a manual vacuum sealer for
their bags.

At only $9 it would be worth a shot.

http://tinyurl.com/p4s6ewc

But that seems to still use "special" ZIP loc bags. I.e., I wouldn't mind
using *normal* ZIP loc bags -- even if they were damaged (e.g., thermally
sealed) in the process. I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.

On 11/22/2015 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:02 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

[snip]


But that seems to still use "special" ZIP loc bags. I.e., I wouldn't mind
using *normal* ZIP loc bags -- even if they were damaged (e.g., thermally
sealed) in the process. I just object to having to buy a bag made
*just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.

My bad, it appears you're correct. However, check out the second
link(s) provided. That should do the trick.

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

On 11/22/2015 10:58 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

We do that with our ZIP loc's, presently. I've been pushing to replace them
with resealable *containers* -- containers being easier to washout AND easier
to "arrange, neatly" in the freezer (sorting through a bunch of floppy bags
in a cold freezer isn't particularly effective).

The appeal of "regular bags" vs. reusing the special ones is that there is
an almost endless supply of regular bags -- even when you don't explicitly
BUY them! (e.g., deli meats come in small zip loc bags which could
easily be reused -- cuz the meats are usually wrapped in waxed paper
*within* the bag!)

Or, worst case, just run out and buy a box of NEW bags (zip loc or otherwise)

On 11/22/2015 11:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:02 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?


You are still saddled with "special media" (only to the extent that this
apparently is for Zip-Loc brand) but Zip-Loc makes a manual vacuum
sealer for
their bags.

At only $9 it would be worth a shot.

http://tinyurl.com/p4s6ewc

But that seems to still use "special" ZIP loc bags. I.e., I wouldn't mind
using *normal* ZIP loc bags -- even if they were damaged (e.g., thermally
sealed) in the process. I just object to having to buy a bag made
*just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.


I know a business owner who vacuum seals his bbq and ships it anywhere
in the USA. I guess if it's worth using it's probably made specifically
for using for vacuum sealing at least until someone invents other options.

--
Maggie

Oren wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to
find them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

You could use cut strips of the used "special" bags for the OP's method.

On 11/22/2015 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:58 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to
find
them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

We do that with our ZIP loc's, presently. I've been pushing to replace
them
with resealable *containers* -- containers being easier to washout AND
easier
to "arrange, neatly" in the freezer (sorting through a bunch of floppy bags
in a cold freezer isn't particularly effective).

Vacuum sealing depends on exactly what you're trying to accomplish...

Vacuum sealers work by forcing the bag into direct contact with the food.
Moisture can't get out because there's nowhere for it to go.
Oxygen is not present because there's no space for it to reside.
It's about proximity, not air pressure.

Stick your vacuum gauge onto a typical home vacuum sealer and you'll
find that the pressure is about half an atmosphere. That's plenty
to force the bag up against the food.

But, if you use a rigid container, you've still got half the air
left in the unoccupied space. Not only have you still got oxygen
to spoil the food, but you have also made it easier for moisture
to escape into that open space with reduced pressure.
Loose food is not "packed"
so it's easier for gasses to escape into that free space.

It's not clear that vacuum sealing in rigid containers provides
significant real benefit.

I've asked about that several times in food preservation groups.
The silence was deafening.

The other problem with rigid containers in the freezer is that,
if there's moisture that freezes, you run the risk of breaking
the vessel.

I recently found an impulse sealer that's easier to use.
It has no vacuum and opens like scissors.
You can slide the bag off the end of the hot strip and seal all but
a quarter inch or so.
Then, use the foodsaver vacuum pump with the hose connected to something
like a rigid drinking straw to suck out the air and seal it again.
The downside is that the vacuum tends to "crinkle" the bag making
it harder to seal...but you only have to seal the last quarter inch.
It isn't necessary to maintain the vacuum...just keep the plastic
tight against the food.

One of the youtube links from the page of the posted link shows
a sealer with a similar technique. It has a "tongue" that sticks into
the bag for sucking out the air. You can hear the "snap" as it
retracts at the instant of sealing. That's the one I want.
There's always a tradeoff. I have no idea how one might keep
the "tongue" sanitary after it sucked out some juices.

Getting poisoned is even less attractive than spending 50 cents
on a bag to save 25 cents worth of food.


The appeal of "regular bags" vs. reusing the special ones is that there is
an almost endless supply of regular bags -- even when you don't explicitly
BUY them! (e.g., deli meats come in small zip loc bags which could
easily be reused -- cuz the meats are usually wrapped in waxed paper
*within* the bag!)

I worry a lot about the history of a bag. Something designed to help
you pack groceries out of the store may not meet sanitary requirements.
You can pretty much guarantee that the package used to store raw
chicken isn't sanitary.

I buy cheese in 2lb. blocks. Slice off what you need and keep the
rest in a baggie. Well, bags that came with bread seemed particularly
well suited to that. But, I noticed that, sometimes, there was
stuff growing on the cheese that I had to slice off. Took 20 years
for the light to come on. Bread is made with yeast...DUH!!!

I wonder if it makes sense to stick recycled
bags in the microwave after washing.

Or, worst case, just run out and buy a box of NEW bags (zip loc or
otherwise)

On 11/22/2015 12:39 PM, mike wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:58 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to
find
them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

We do that with our ZIP loc's, presently. I've been pushing to replace
them
with resealable *containers* -- containers being easier to washout AND
easier
to "arrange, neatly" in the freezer (sorting through a bunch of floppy bags
in a cold freezer isn't particularly effective).

Vacuum sealing depends on exactly what you're trying to accomplish...

Sorry, I'm conflating two different issues. The original post
concerns vacuum sealing *bags* -- e.g., buying nutmeats in bulk
and wanting to "shrink wrap" their storage container (bag); or,
shrink-wrapping individual cuts of meat; or...

The "containers" issue is a different one, entirely. Once you've
vacuum sealed all of those cuts of meat, what do you do with them?
Just stack them up in the freezer? Or, do you put them in some
other container to "keep them together" -- like a zip loc *bag*!

For example, we purchase pork tenderloins in "dual two-packs".
This is enough for 8 meals. If we put each (factory) vacuum-packed
two pack directly in the freezer, we would end up thawing 4 meals
worth of meat at a time.

So, we clean the tenderloins (trim fat, silver skin, etc.), cut each
in half, wrap each half in saran wrap, then place in a zip loc bag
in the freezer. When we want that meal, we remove *one* of these
pieces from the freezer, let it thaw, etc.

We do the same thing with steaks (individually wrapping them in saran
and then tin foil), chicken (clean the breasts, cut into small pieces
that will defrost very quickly, wrap in saran wrap), etc.

So, lots of (floppy) bags full of "individual portions". I'd prefer
these to be packaged in rigid containers (which will be no more or less
"vacuum packed" than the existing zip loc bags) that can be stacked
and labeled (e.g., dates of purchase so we know WHICH bag/box of chicken
to use first) instead of a bunch of bags that inevitably end up
in a messy pile ("No, that's not the bag I wanted. Let me try to cram it
back into the place it previously occupied -- despite the fact that
the adjacent bags have now 'slouched' into it -- and see if I can
find the right bag..."). And, each of us hopes (expects?) the other
to sort out the mess -- cuz "I'm busy right now..."

I.e., the vacuum sealer solves the freshness/preservation problem while
the containers provide "structure" to the storage environment.

What I'd like to be able to do is take the bulk nutmeat, chicken, pork,
beef, etc. purchases and vacuum pack into small (or smallER) servings
and then store those in containers (yet to be found -- they must be
optimally sized to fit in the "baskets" in the freezer) for ease of
access.

Vacuum sealers work by forcing the bag into direct contact with the food.
Moisture can't get out because there's nowhere for it to go.
Oxygen is not present because there's no space for it to reside.
It's about proximity, not air pressure.

Correct. And, moisture *vapor* can't get sealed *in*! So, no risk
of condensate inside the bag "wetting" the foodstuffs as they defrost!

Stick your vacuum gauge onto a typical home vacuum sealer and you'll
find that the pressure is about half an atmosphere. That's plenty
to force the bag up against the food.

But, if you use a rigid container, you've still got half the air
left in the unoccupied space. Not only have you still got oxygen
to spoil the food, but you have also made it easier for moisture
to escape into that open space with reduced pressure.
Loose food is not "packed"
so it's easier for gasses to escape into that free space.

Yes. As I stated above, this isn't a problem, currently, because we
individually wrap the items that we are placing in those containers
(presently *bags*).

However, for some things (e.g., cookies), it's hard to package them
in a way that is "air tight" and evacuates most of the air. Presently,
I use zip loc bags that have been *almost* completely sealed -- with
the exception of a gap just large enough for a soda straw. Then,
pull a vacuum with my lungs to *try* to remove most of the excess
air trapped in the bag. It's not possible (using any mechanism)
to evacuate all of the air as the cookies don't "pack densely"
so there are always voids around them that trap air.

It's not clear that vacuum sealing in rigid containers provides
significant real benefit.

I've asked about that several times in food preservation groups.
The silence was deafening.

I think *true* vacuums in, e.g., canning jars has benefit.
Note, there, you typically ALMOST completely fill the jar
with liquid (etc.) leaving very little volume for air/vacuum.

But, just "sucking the air out" (soda straw) is probably not enough.
There, the primary preservative benefit is that of refrigeration
(as expected, given the amount of butter usually involved)

The other problem with rigid containers in the freezer is that,
if there's moisture that freezes, you run the risk of breaking
the vessel.

True of glass but not as much so of most plastics. OTOH, I've
noticed that repeated freezing seems to "age" the plastic;
remove some of its "plasticity".

I recently found an impulse sealer that's easier to use.
It has no vacuum and opens like scissors.
You can slide the bag off the end of the hot strip and seal all but
a quarter inch or so.
Then, use the foodsaver vacuum pump with the hose connected to something
like a rigid drinking straw to suck out the air and seal it again.
The downside is that the vacuum tends to "crinkle" the bag making
it harder to seal...but you only have to seal the last quarter inch.
It isn't necessary to maintain the vacuum...just keep the plastic
tight against the food.

One of the youtube links from the page of the posted link shows
a sealer with a similar technique. It has a "tongue" that sticks into
the bag for sucking out the air. You can hear the "snap" as it
retracts at the instant of sealing. That's the one I want.

Ah, OK. That's like what I was describing elsewhere (this thread).
I had assumed you could insert tubes that (gradually?) are retracted
as you prepare to melt the bag.

There's always a tradeoff. I have no idea how one might keep
the "tongue" sanitary after it sucked out some juices.

Getting poisoned is even less attractive than spending 50 cents
on a bag to save 25 cents worth of food.

Yup. In our applications, there's seldom much "juice" involved
(blood from the meats, etc. -- but, that's highly "local" to
the actual piece of meat; it's not like you have a BAG of blood
with a chunk of meat in the middle!)

The appeal of "regular bags" vs. reusing the special ones is that there is
an almost endless supply of regular bags -- even when you don't explicitly
BUY them! (e.g., deli meats come in small zip loc bags which could
easily be reused -- cuz the meats are usually wrapped in waxed paper
*within* the bag!)

I worry a lot about the history of a bag. Something designed to help
you pack groceries out of the store may not meet sanitary requirements.
You can pretty much guarantee that the package used to store raw
chicken isn't sanitary.

Of course. OTOH, watching the girl at the deli counter pull a
zip loc bag from a dispenser, wrap my salami in a piece of
waxed paper and then insert that into the bag tells me the entire
history of *that* bag.

I buy cheese in 2lb. blocks. Slice off what you need and keep the
rest in a baggie. Well, bags that came with bread seemed particularly
well suited to that. But, I noticed that, sometimes, there was
stuff growing on the cheese that I had to slice off. Took 20 years
for the light to come on. Bread is made with yeast...DUH!!!

I wonder if it makes sense to stick recycled
bags in the microwave after washing.

I read that microwaving things like saran wrap while still in
contact with food releases carcinogens (? from the wrapper?).
E.g., we now microwave things with a (clean) paper towel
draped over it (to catch splatter and trap moisture) which
can then be discarded.

Perhaps intense UV exposure might be an alternative??

Or, worst case, just run out and buy a box of NEW bags (zip loc or
otherwise)

Don Y wrote:

It's not clear that vacuum sealing in rigid containers provides
significant real benefit.

I've asked about that several times in food preservation groups.
The silence was deafening.

I think *true* vacuums in, e.g., canning jars has benefit.
Note, there, you typically ALMOST completely fill the jar
with liquid (etc.) leaving very little volume for air/vacuum.

And when you put them back in the water bath, water boils in them, forcing out
any air or oxygen. So when the jar cools, water vapor at the top condenses,
leaving a vacuum. It's the heating process that sterilizes the contents, and the
vacuum that keeps it so. Once you break the seal the product is no longer safe
for indeterminate storage. Sucking some of the air back out won't change that.

FWIW, meats can be stored for months in a cold freezer if you first freeze them
solid individually, then spray them with cold water using a trigger sprayer to
coat them with a good layer of ice. That ice will protect the meet for a long
time. You can just put the iced chunks into ziplock bags. If the ice eventually
sublimates away, the coating process can be repeated. As long as the meat is
completely covered with ice, it won't get freezer burn.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:54:56 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

I have one at home that I bought online. It uses reusable zip lock type bags that are sized like most food storage bags. The plastic is a bit thicker and there is a one way valve molded into the side of the bags. You fill them, zip them closed and press the battery powered vacuum pump over the valve and switch it on. The bags are actually dishwasher safe. I bought the kit from Woot.com and I'll try to find it online again because the bag kit is not currently listed on Woot but there are a number of similar systems for sale on Amazon. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/Packmate-95000.../dp/B0011FJS4M

http://www.amazon.com/Widgeteer-Vac-.../dp/B003IWNBBW

[8~{} Uncle Vacuum Monster

On 11/22/2015 3:35 PM, Bob F wrote:

FWIW, meats can be stored for months in a cold freezer if you first freeze them
solid individually, then spray them with cold water using a trigger sprayer to
coat them with a good layer of ice. That ice will protect the meet for a long

This is how we protect the citrus trees on exceptionally cold nights (i.e.,
coat them with a fine water mist that covers everything with a thin layer
of ice.). Depending on how cold it gets, this may limit your loss to *just*
the fruit (no "wood")

time. You can just put the iced chunks into ziplock bags. If the ice eventually
sublimates away, the coating process can be repeated. As long as the meat is
completely covered with ice, it won't get freezer burn.

I think that would be harder to achieve and maintain. E.g., we buy steaks
in lots of a dozen or more, chicken breast in 20 lb lots (and cut each
breast into 4 or 5 small pieces), etc. You'd need a way of arranging
and keeping them in a single layer while they were freezing.

We double wrap individual steaks (cuz that's the serving size)
in saran and tinfoil which seems to keep them well. Then, stand them
on end, side by side, in a zip loc bag.

I have some (ingenious!) Tupperware stackable containers that are good
for handling hamburger patties. Each one is large enough for a single
(thick) patty. The "kit" comes with a gizmo that lets you form the
patties "perfectly" (place the plastic sleeve/form in one of these
containers, put a wad of meat in this plastic sleeve, mash it down with
a large plastic plunger). Each container forms the cover for the container
"beneath" it -- so, you get a long stack of stuck-together containers
that resembles a segmented cylinder.

Something similar for steaks, nutmeats, chicken, etc. would be hard to
come by -- there's no uniformity in steak sizes, etc. (OTOH, burgers
tend to be "bun sized" : )

On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:55:20 -0600, Don Y
wrote:

There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

It looks like people use all sorts of containers for vacuum
sealiing. This one http://tinyurl.com/ohhtmrh (youtube) shows Mason jars
being vacuum sealed.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 11/22/2015 11:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

There was a manual pump at reasonable price, but I don't recall the name
of it. I suspect they are gone as I can't find any information.

Using standard bags is cheaper, but they don't perform as well so
evaluate your use before going that route. Thin bags are more prone to
getting perforated in the freezer, plus, they don't offer as much of a
barrier. Thin bgs may be OK for a month with dry goods, but if you want
to keep frozen meat long term, use the thicker bags. They can be reused
too.

On 11/22/2015 9:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


There was a manual pump at reasonable price, but I don't recall the name
of it. I suspect they are gone as I can't find any information.


Found it

http://www.pump-n-seal.com/

On 11/22/2015 5:58 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:55:20 -0600, Don Y
wrote:

There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

It looks like people use all sorts of containers for vacuum
sealiing. This one http://tinyurl.com/ohhtmrh (youtube) shows Mason jars
being vacuum sealed.


Those work great. BUT!
After thinking about it, reducing the small amount of air in the
container by half can't have a dramatic effect. Yes, every little
bit helps, but I'm not convinced it's the panacea that the youtubers
claim.
I does keep the lid on without the ring.

I save peanut butter jars because they have a seal in the lid.
If you poke a tiny hole in the lid and cover it loosely with
tape, like black electrical tape, you can suck the air out and seal
it with the tape. You need a different kind of interface to the
vacuum pump. The handheld foodsavers work fine. I did some test runs
and the seal was still good after a few months.

Never did anything with it because I keep coming back to the opinion
that vacuum sealing in a jar doesn't do much good.

On 11/22/2015 7:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/22/2015 11:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

There was a manual pump at reasonable price, but I don't recall the name of
it. I suspect they are gone as I can't find any information.

I'm not averse to buying an electric pump/sealing unit. It's the
bags (consumables) that are annoying. How many do you keep on hand
(and where do you keep them) to ensure you aren't caught needing
another "box" -- or, worse, having to scramble to find a new
supplier when your previous source opts to no longer carry them.

[E.g., bags for trash compactors]

Using standard bags is cheaper, but they don't perform as well so evaluate your
use before going that route. Thin bags are more prone to getting perforated in
the freezer, plus, they don't offer as much of a barrier. Thin bgs may be OK
for a month with dry goods, but if you want to keep frozen meat long term, use
the thicker bags. They can be reused too.

The thin bags would most typically replace those instances where we are
manually wrapping items with saran wrap before placing in bags/containers
of similar items. We currently use sandwich bags for nutmeats as a
"cup or two" is about all you can easily fit in such a bag and that,
coincidentally, is about the amount used in most Rx's.

With a vacuum sealer, I could skip the individual packaging and just
dump *all* the nuts (of a given type) into a single large, heavy-weight
bag (e.g., a gallon sized "freezer" bag -- instead of using that bag to
hold all the little sandwich bags full of nuts!) that I could later
open and reseal.

Likewise, put chicken breast portions in sandwich bags that are then
packed in a larger bag/container.

[And, in the normal course of use, that bag would end up getting
discarded -- so I'd not have to later fight with a "failing zipper"
for a bag that should have been discarded BEFORE being refilled,
this time!]

We spend a lot of time "saving money" (?) -- buying in larger quantities
and then repackaging. I typically dread "shopping day" (annoying
chore that competes with more interesting activities). But, on those
days when we buy pork, chicken, nuts, etc. -- anything that has to be
repackaged -- it is *doubly* dreadful! It's like the few hours of
shopping have now been extended by a few more *inside* our home! :

[At least we don't have to fight for a parking space, here! : ]

On 11/22/2015 12:50 PM, Don Y wrote:
But that seems to still use "special" ZIP loc bags. I.e., I wouldn't mind
using *normal* ZIP loc bags -- even if they were damaged (e.g., thermally
sealed) in the process. I just object to having to buy a bag made
*just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to find
them in the future.


I suspect the regular ones aren't strong enough,
nor enough quality control to hold any kind of
vacuum.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 11/22/2015 11:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

The vacuum packing bags are made from plastics designed as barrier resins.

Air, moisture, carbon dioxide etc. permeate plastics.

You'll notice for example that there are zip lock bags for food and zip
lock bags for freezer. That means the plastics are different.

Maybe a regular bag is just polyethylene, which is the worse barrier
plastic, but polyethylene sandwich with poly ethylene/vinyl alcohol is a
good barrier.

Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 3:35 PM, Bob F wrote:

FWIW, meats can be stored for months in a cold freezer if you first
freeze them solid individually, then spray them with cold water
using a trigger sprayer to coat them with a good layer of ice. That
ice will protect the meet for a long

This is how we protect the citrus trees on exceptionally cold nights
(i.e., coat them with a fine water mist that covers everything with a
thin layer of ice.). Depending on how cold it gets, this may limit
your loss to *just* the fruit (no "wood")


I always wondered why they did that - thanks.

time. You can just put the iced chunks into ziplock bags. If the ice
eventually sublimates away, the coating process can be repeated. As
long as the meat is completely covered with ice, it won't get
freezer burn.

I think that would be harder to achieve and maintain. E.g., we buy
steaks in lots of a dozen or more, chicken breast in 20 lb lots (and
cut each breast into 4 or 5 small pieces), etc. You'd need a way of
arranging and keeping them in a single layer while they were freezing.

I just arrange them on cookie sheets to freeze.

On 11/23/2015 10:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 3:35 PM, Bob F wrote:

FWIW, meats can be stored for months in a cold freezer if you first
freeze them solid individually, then spray them with cold water
using a trigger sprayer to coat them with a good layer of ice. That
ice will protect the meet for a long

This is how we protect the citrus trees on exceptionally cold nights
(i.e., coat them with a fine water mist that covers everything with a
thin layer of ice.). Depending on how cold it gets, this may limit
your loss to *just* the fruit (no "wood")


I always wondered why they did that - thanks.

The ice acts as a sort of insulator -- keeping the 15F temps (for example)
from directly affecting the plant. Putting water in the ground is
another helpful measure. And, "moving the air" so the cold air doesn't
settle on the branches/leaves/fruit.

I've installed lengths of galvanized pipe cast in large concrete
blocks around the perimeter of the trees. The (evantual) goal is to
erect "misters" on poles inserted into these supports, tied into
the regular irrigation taps. So, in cold weather, turn on the
irrigation for the citrus "zones" periodically throughout the
evening to keep a coating of ice on the trees when it looks
like temperatures would otherwise threaten the wood.

time. You can just put the iced chunks into ziplock bags. If the ice
eventually sublimates away, the coating process can be repeated. As
long as the meat is completely covered with ice, it won't get
freezer burn.

I think that would be harder to achieve and maintain. E.g., we buy
steaks in lots of a dozen or more, chicken breast in 20 lb lots (and
cut each breast into 4 or 5 small pieces), etc. You'd need a way of
arranging and keeping them in a single layer while they were freezing.

I just arrange them on cookie sheets to freeze.

We *heavily* use our freezer. E.g., recently purchased 50 pounds of flour
(in 5# sacks) which are stored there and retrieved as I need them
(about 3x5# every 2 weeks at this time of year). Sometime in December
(earliest -- depends on how quickly the nights turn cold) or January
we'll start juicing the Valencias. So, that'll be 7 or 8 gallons of juice
that will need to be frozen. We've already got 1.5G of lemons juiced
and another 1.5-2G remaining to be juiced (it's rough on the hangs
holding in place them on the juicer).

Add to that marinara/bolognese sauce made in 16qt batches, fresh dates
(for date nut bread), pecans, walnuts, "specialty flours", several
pounds of butter, "fresh" blueberries, salmon fillets, battered cod,
etc. And, you've not yet touched the chicken, pork tenderloins, flank
steak, hamburger patties, ribeye's, etc.

Or, any of the "holiday treats" temporarily stored there (until I've
finished baking everything for the neighbors, etc.).

When power fails, we don't worry about the refrigerator, furnace,
ACbrrr, computers, etc. -- we worry about the *freezer*! :

On 11/23/2015 6:19 AM, Frank wrote:
On 11/22/2015 11:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
There are "specialty" products that can be used to vacuum-pack
(e.g.) foodstuffs. But, AFAICT, they all use "special" media
to do so -- special bags (that you are now dependent upon
for continued use of said product).

Does anyone make a vacuum sealer that can be applied to
more generic media? Or, does the medium need special
characteristics (e.g., air channels) to be useful?

E.g., when shrink-wrapping to a "card", you draw air
*through* that card (perforations) to pull the plastic
film down onto the card (and "set" it with heat).

Could you, for example, have a device that just took regular
plastic bags (Ziploc, "baggies", etc.) and use them for this
function?

The vacuum packing bags are made from plastics designed as barrier resins.

Air, moisture, carbon dioxide etc. permeate plastics.

Correct. Different types of plastics have different permeabilities -- to
moisture *and* oxygen.

E.g., I wrap steaks in saran wrap and then "tin" foil. Steaks don't
leave the freezer very often (SWMBO isn't fond of beef) so they need
to hold up for longer periods than chicken or pork.

I do the same when shipping biscotti as they will experience temperature
and humidity changes between here and "there" (damn near everyplace is
wetter than here!) and it is imperative (for taste) that they remain
dry and crisp/crunchy -- during transit as well as when "stored" in
the recipient's home

You'll notice for example that there are zip lock bags for food and zip lock
bags for freezer. That means the plastics are different.

I suspect a lot of the difference has to do with durability -- of
the bag's body as well as its "zipper". AFAICT, the (ziploc)
"Freezer" and "regular" bags are both LDPE.

Maybe a regular bag is just polyethylene, which is the worse barrier plastic,
but polyethylene sandwich with poly ethylene/vinyl alcohol is a good barrier.

Don Y wrote:
You'll notice for example that there are zip lock bags for food and
zip lock bags for freezer. That means the plastics are different.

I suspect a lot of the difference has to do with durability -- of
the bag's body as well as its "zipper". AFAICT, the (ziploc)
"Freezer" and "regular" bags are both LDPE.

The freezer bags are basically - thicker.