On 11/22/2015 12:39 PM, mike wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 11/22/2015 10:58 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just object to having to buy a bag made *just* for
that particular purpose -- and having to make sure I can continue to
find
them in the future.

When we had a sealer with the "special" bags, we would recycle them -
larger into smaller bags until they were no longer useful. Wash and
dry them well.

We do that with our ZIP loc's, presently. I've been pushing to replace
them
with resealable *containers* -- containers being easier to washout AND
easier
to "arrange, neatly" in the freezer (sorting through a bunch of floppy bags
in a cold freezer isn't particularly effective).

Vacuum sealing depends on exactly what you're trying to accomplish...

Sorry, I'm conflating two different issues. The original post
concerns vacuum sealing *bags* -- e.g., buying nutmeats in bulk
and wanting to "shrink wrap" their storage container (bag); or,
shrink-wrapping individual cuts of meat; or...

The "containers" issue is a different one, entirely. Once you've
vacuum sealed all of those cuts of meat, what do you do with them?
Just stack them up in the freezer? Or, do you put them in some
other container to "keep them together" -- like a zip loc *bag*!

For example, we purchase pork tenderloins in "dual two-packs".
This is enough for 8 meals. If we put each (factory) vacuum-packed
two pack directly in the freezer, we would end up thawing 4 meals
worth of meat at a time.

So, we clean the tenderloins (trim fat, silver skin, etc.), cut each
in half, wrap each half in saran wrap, then place in a zip loc bag
in the freezer. When we want that meal, we remove *one* of these
pieces from the freezer, let it thaw, etc.

We do the same thing with steaks (individually wrapping them in saran
and then tin foil), chicken (clean the breasts, cut into small pieces
that will defrost very quickly, wrap in saran wrap), etc.

So, lots of (floppy) bags full of "individual portions". I'd prefer
these to be packaged in rigid containers (which will be no more or less
"vacuum packed" than the existing zip loc bags) that can be stacked
and labeled (e.g., dates of purchase so we know WHICH bag/box of chicken
to use first) instead of a bunch of bags that inevitably end up
in a messy pile ("No, that's not the bag I wanted. Let me try to cram it
back into the place it previously occupied -- despite the fact that
the adjacent bags have now 'slouched' into it -- and see if I can
find the right bag..."). And, each of us hopes (expects?) the other
to sort out the mess -- cuz "I'm busy right now..."

I.e., the vacuum sealer solves the freshness/preservation problem while
the containers provide "structure" to the storage environment.

What I'd like to be able to do is take the bulk nutmeat, chicken, pork,
beef, etc. purchases and vacuum pack into small (or smallER) servings
and then store those in containers (yet to be found -- they must be
optimally sized to fit in the "baskets" in the freezer) for ease of
access.

Vacuum sealers work by forcing the bag into direct contact with the food.
Moisture can't get out because there's nowhere for it to go.
Oxygen is not present because there's no space for it to reside.
It's about proximity, not air pressure.

Correct. And, moisture *vapor* can't get sealed *in*! So, no risk
of condensate inside the bag "wetting" the foodstuffs as they defrost!

Stick your vacuum gauge onto a typical home vacuum sealer and you'll
find that the pressure is about half an atmosphere. That's plenty
to force the bag up against the food.

But, if you use a rigid container, you've still got half the air
left in the unoccupied space. Not only have you still got oxygen
to spoil the food, but you have also made it easier for moisture
to escape into that open space with reduced pressure.
Loose food is not "packed"
so it's easier for gasses to escape into that free space.

Yes. As I stated above, this isn't a problem, currently, because we
individually wrap the items that we are placing in those containers
(presently *bags*).

However, for some things (e.g., cookies), it's hard to package them
in a way that is "air tight" and evacuates most of the air. Presently,
I use zip loc bags that have been *almost* completely sealed -- with
the exception of a gap just large enough for a soda straw. Then,
pull a vacuum with my lungs to *try* to remove most of the excess
air trapped in the bag. It's not possible (using any mechanism)
to evacuate all of the air as the cookies don't "pack densely"
so there are always voids around them that trap air.

It's not clear that vacuum sealing in rigid containers provides
significant real benefit.

I've asked about that several times in food preservation groups.
The silence was deafening.

I think *true* vacuums in, e.g., canning jars has benefit.
Note, there, you typically ALMOST completely fill the jar
with liquid (etc.) leaving very little volume for air/vacuum.

But, just "sucking the air out" (soda straw) is probably not enough.
There, the primary preservative benefit is that of refrigeration
(as expected, given the amount of butter usually involved)

The other problem with rigid containers in the freezer is that,
if there's moisture that freezes, you run the risk of breaking
the vessel.

True of glass but not as much so of most plastics. OTOH, I've
noticed that repeated freezing seems to "age" the plastic;
remove some of its "plasticity".

I recently found an impulse sealer that's easier to use.
It has no vacuum and opens like scissors.
You can slide the bag off the end of the hot strip and seal all but
a quarter inch or so.
Then, use the foodsaver vacuum pump with the hose connected to something
like a rigid drinking straw to suck out the air and seal it again.
The downside is that the vacuum tends to "crinkle" the bag making
it harder to seal...but you only have to seal the last quarter inch.
It isn't necessary to maintain the vacuum...just keep the plastic
tight against the food.

One of the youtube links from the page of the posted link shows
a sealer with a similar technique. It has a "tongue" that sticks into
the bag for sucking out the air. You can hear the "snap" as it
retracts at the instant of sealing. That's the one I want.

Ah, OK. That's like what I was describing elsewhere (this thread).
I had assumed you could insert tubes that (gradually?) are retracted
as you prepare to melt the bag.

There's always a tradeoff. I have no idea how one might keep
the "tongue" sanitary after it sucked out some juices.

Getting poisoned is even less attractive than spending 50 cents
on a bag to save 25 cents worth of food.

Yup. In our applications, there's seldom much "juice" involved
(blood from the meats, etc. -- but, that's highly "local" to
the actual piece of meat; it's not like you have a BAG of blood
with a chunk of meat in the middle!)

The appeal of "regular bags" vs. reusing the special ones is that there is
an almost endless supply of regular bags -- even when you don't explicitly
BUY them! (e.g., deli meats come in small zip loc bags which could
easily be reused -- cuz the meats are usually wrapped in waxed paper
*within* the bag!)

I worry a lot about the history of a bag. Something designed to help
you pack groceries out of the store may not meet sanitary requirements.
You can pretty much guarantee that the package used to store raw
chicken isn't sanitary.

Of course. OTOH, watching the girl at the deli counter pull a
zip loc bag from a dispenser, wrap my salami in a piece of
waxed paper and then insert that into the bag tells me the entire
history of *that* bag.

I buy cheese in 2lb. blocks. Slice off what you need and keep the
rest in a baggie. Well, bags that came with bread seemed particularly
well suited to that. But, I noticed that, sometimes, there was
stuff growing on the cheese that I had to slice off. Took 20 years
for the light to come on. Bread is made with yeast...DUH!!!

I wonder if it makes sense to stick recycled
bags in the microwave after washing.

I read that microwaving things like saran wrap while still in
contact with food releases carcinogens (? from the wrapper?).
E.g., we now microwave things with a (clean) paper towel
draped over it (to catch splatter and trap moisture) which
can then be discarded.

Perhaps intense UV exposure might be an alternative??

Or, worst case, just run out and buy a box of NEW bags (zip loc or
otherwise)