Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

On 10/28/2015 6:54 PM, wrote:
Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

Don't you also have to protect the garage? Laundry area?
(or were these already covered)

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:19:20 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/28/2015 6:54 PM, wrote:
Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

Don't you also have to protect the garage? Laundry area?
(or were these already covered)
The only things flagged were the outlets with 1.5 meters of the sinks
- kitchen and baths - and outdoors under 2.5 meters above finished
grade. I don't have to bring it up to current code (thank goodness)

Up here in Ontario carports need to be GFI'd, but not attached
garages.
My basement , including the laundry, is totally finished. If the
basement was not finished I might need to protect more.

The one outdoor and the downstairs "powder room" are on the same
circuit so a GFI breaker would work EXCEPT the fridge is on the same
circuit. Can't GFI the fridge. Best way would be to run a separate
circuit for the fridge - but that is a LOT of work, what with the
garage at the opposite side of the house, the panel at the far end of
the garage, and everything finished. I'd need to run the wire up and
over the garage (means adding an attic access in the garage, then
dropping the wire to the basement and across to below the fridge,
then up the wall. If we ever redo the kitchen again, that would be in
the cards - but that won't be happening for the forseable future since
we did a complete reno about 15 years ago - and it is still in
excellent condition.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

expressed precisely :
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

Don't they allow WHOLE HOuSE GFI in Canada?

In AUS whole house including the fridge is allowable and mine was built
into the house when it was built in the mid 1980s, hence any additions
within the load limits are automaticly protected.

--
John G Sydney.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:05:32 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

All of these connectors are scary expensive, no matter where you are.
I assume you are paying some lawyer tax in there,.
I am curious why shipping would be so much. The last time I sent a
box to Canada it was not really that expensive and the tariff should
not be much.

We would be buying an Ideal #65 if you want a wire nut (probably the
same thing)
The 65s are really a toss up. U/L and CSA lists them but the US CSPC
says they will burn your house down. Home inspectors hate them.
OTOH there are millions of houses wired with aluminum here in the late
60s/early 70s that never burned down. I used to have one and my ex is
still there. It used regular devices and wire nuts. (not CO/AL-r)
Workmanship seems to be the biggest factor. You could be a lot
sloppier with copper and get away with it.
I believe if you twisted up the CU/AL joints tight, put on a little
dab of goo and screwed on a live spring wire nut (like the 3M) it
would last until the next millennium but I can't say it out loud.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:14:54 +1100, John G wrote:

expressed precisely :
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

Don't they allow WHOLE HOuSE GFI in Canada?

In AUS whole house including the fridge is allowable and mine was built
into the house when it was built in the mid 1980s, hence any additions
within the load limits are automaticly protected.

The RCD is a 30ma device. US and I assume Canada requires 5ma
protection.

laid this down on his screen :
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:14:54 +1100, John G wrote:

expressed precisely :
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

Don't they allow WHOLE HOuSE GFI in Canada?

In AUS whole house including the fridge is allowable and mine was built
into the house when it was built in the mid 1980s, hence any additions
within the load limits are automaticly protected.

The RCD is a 30ma device. US and I assume Canada requires 5ma
protection.

I believe you are correct but in 13 years my Whole house RCD has
tripped on a few valid faults but never missed one. (Rain water in a
power strip etc).

--
John G Sydney.

On 10/28/2015 8:00 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:19:20 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/28/2015 6:54 PM, wrote:
Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

Don't you also have to protect the garage? Laundry area?
(or were these already covered)
The only things flagged were the outlets with 1.5 meters of the sinks
- kitchen and baths - and outdoors under 2.5 meters above finished
grade. I don't have to bring it up to current code (thank goodness)

This place is ~35+ and the outdoor, bathroom and garage requirements
were in place. Originally, the two outdoor, one garage and one per
bathroom outlets were all on a single GFCI-protected circuit.

Up here in Ontario carports need to be GFI'd, but not attached
garages.

Interesting. Here, a garage is GFCI'd regardless of attached or
carport. In a carport, you might also have to add protection from
"water splashes" (rainfall)

My basement , including the laundry, is totally finished. If the
basement was not finished I might need to protect more.

The one outdoor and the downstairs "powder room" are on the same
circuit so a GFI breaker would work EXCEPT the fridge is on the same
circuit. Can't GFI the fridge. Best way would be to run a separate
circuit for the fridge - but that is a LOT of work, what with the
garage at the opposite side of the house, the panel at the far end of
the garage, and everything finished. I'd need to run the wire up and
over the garage (means adding an attic access in the garage, then

You can't get *into* the space above the garage?

dropping the wire to the basement and across to below the fridge,
then up the wall. If we ever redo the kitchen again, that would be in
the cards - but that won't be happening for the forseable future since
we did a complete reno about 15 years ago - and it is still in
excellent condition.

Be thankful you have attic/basement! Here, most folks put EMT on the
exterior of the house -- up to the roof, and over. Looks like total
crap.

(Then, of course, you've got the DIYers who just run Romex without
the EMT! :-/ )

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:14:54 +1100, John G wrote:

expressed precisely :
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

Don't they allow WHOLE HOuSE GFI in Canada?

In AUS whole house including the fridge is allowable and mine was built
into the house when it was built in the mid 1980s, hence any additions
within the load limits are automaticly protected.
No such thing as whole house GFI in Canada or the USA. Whole houe
SURGE PRITECTORS exist, and my house is equipped with one.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:13:27 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:05:32 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:21:53 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:54:32 -0400, wrote:

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you.
Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from
Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless
Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in
quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in
brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 -
about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada -
just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least
in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are
conspicuous by their absence!!!

All of these connectors are scary expensive, no matter where you are.
I assume you are paying some lawyer tax in there,.
I am curious why shipping would be so much. The last time I sent a
box to Canada it was not really that expensive and the tariff should
not be much.

We would be buying an Ideal #65 if you want a wire nut (probably the
same thing)

The differenmce between the ideal and the Thomas $ Betts (Marrette)
ACXS65 iand the ideal is the ECS is phenolic instead of the ideals
thermoplastic - which is highly flammable on it's own and is then
LOADED with a petroleum based asnti-oxidant.
The 65s are really a toss up. U/L and CSA lists them but the US CSPC
says they will burn your house down. Home inspectors hate them.
OTOH there are millions of houses wired with aluminum here in the late
60s/early 70s that never burned down. I used to have one and my ex is
still there. It used regular devices and wire nuts. (not CO/AL-r)

My house is 43 years old, with "regular" wire nuts too - never a
problem - but I need an inspection - and I need it to pass, and if I
disturb the connection at all I need to have the proper connectors to
pass. I found a distributor locally with the ACS65s in stock - but
had to buy a box of 100 for $65.00
Workmanship seems to be the biggest factor. You could be a lot
sloppier with copper and get away with it.
I believe if you twisted up the CU/AL joints tight, put on a little
dab of goo and screwed on a live spring wire nut (like the 3M) it
would last until the next millennium but I can't say it out loud.
I agree with you 100%

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:59:47 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/28/2015 8:00 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:19:20 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/28/2015 6:54 PM, wrote:
Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

Don't you also have to protect the garage? Laundry area?
(or were these already covered)
The only things flagged were the outlets with 1.5 meters of the sinks
- kitchen and baths - and outdoors under 2.5 meters above finished
grade. I don't have to bring it up to current code (thank goodness)

This place is ~35+ and the outdoor, bathroom and garage requirements
were in place. Originally, the two outdoor, one garage and one per
bathroom outlets were all on a single GFCI-protected circuit.

Up here in Ontario carports need to be GFI'd, but not attached
garages.

Interesting. Here, a garage is GFCI'd regardless of attached or
carport. In a carport, you might also have to add protection from
"water splashes" (rainfall)

My basement , including the laundry, is totally finished. If the
basement was not finished I might need to protect more.

The one outdoor and the downstairs "powder room" are on the same
circuit so a GFI breaker would work EXCEPT the fridge is on the same
circuit. Can't GFI the fridge. Best way would be to run a separate
circuit for the fridge - but that is a LOT of work, what with the
garage at the opposite side of the house, the panel at the far end of
the garage, and everything finished. I'd need to run the wire up and
over the garage (means adding an attic access in the garage, then

You can't get *into* the space above the garage?

Not without cutting a hole in the seiling or the roof.

dropping the wire to the basement and across to below the fridge,
then up the wall. If we ever redo the kitchen again, that would be in
the cards - but that won't be happening for the forseable future since
we did a complete reno about 15 years ago - and it is still in
excellent condition.

Be thankful you have attic/basement! Here, most folks put EMT on the
exterior of the house -- up to the roof, and over. Looks like total
crap.

(Then, of course, you've got the DIYers who just run Romex without
the EMT! :-/ )
Really abvious to an inspector driving by - - - -

On 10/29/2015 9:35 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:59:47 -0700, Don Y

You can't get *into* the space above the garage?

Not without cutting a hole in the seiling or the roof.

Interesting. I've never encountered a place that didn't have
*every* attic space accessible (e.g., places where the attic
space above one "wing" wasn't connected to the space above
another) -- usually through panels hidden in closets.

(Then, of course, you've got the DIYers who just run Romex without
the EMT! :-/ )
Really abvious to an inspector driving by - - - -

This is The West -- where the Men are Men (and the sheep are all scared!)

posted for all of us...



Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Call the companies up and ask for the jobbers and dealers or ask for
samples. They may just send them through the mail. I had a company do that
to me. In fact I got a bag of 25 of each of the connectors I inquired about.
I still have 80% left because the sparkys around here use what they have
always used and they ain't changin' now. The ones I have will not work for
you. Do you have Scotchlocks available?

Get in touch with John Grabowski or Greg Fretwell they know the scoop and
will help. I like to volunteer people...

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:49:00 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/29/2015 9:35 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:59:47 -0700, Don Y

You can't get *into* the space above the garage?

Not without cutting a hole in the seiling or the roof.

Interesting. I've never encountered a place that didn't have
*every* attic space accessible (e.g., places where the attic
space above one "wing" wasn't connected to the space above
another) -- usually through panels hidden in closets.

(Then, of course, you've got the DIYers who just run Romex without
the EMT! :-/ )
Really abvious to an inspector driving by - - - -

This is The West -- where the Men are Men (and the sheep are all scared!)

This is a 2 story house with the garage on the main floor, and 2
rooflines. Second story roof over house only. First floor roof over
garage, which sticks out about 4 feet from the rest of the main floor
along with the Foyer, and over the front porch, full length of the
house The "attic" of the garage dead-heads against the wall of the
second story of the house in the staircase, with a small window at the
end of the hall, at the top of the stairs, looking out over the garage
roof.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:56:11 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can
change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority
does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a
pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours,
condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top
"splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to
have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers.
The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI
outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged
boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming
into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line
and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow -
How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their
suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific
stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split
the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of
Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers
- on a GOOD day.

Call the companies up and ask for the jobbers and dealers or ask for
samples. They may just send them through the mail. I had a company do that
to me. In fact I got a bag of 25 of each of the connectors I inquired about.
I still have 80% left because the sparkys around here use what they have
always used and they ain't changin' now. The ones I have will not work for
you. Do you have Scotchlocks available?

Scotchloks are not approved for aluminum up here. The ireal twisties
are, but I won't use them.

I ended up finding a box of the ACS65s at Westburne this morning.
Smallest box? 100. Cost? ^$59.71 plus GST - total $67.48
I won't be running out of them for a while!!! A friend is going to
have to do the same thing on his house, so he'll make use of a few,

Get in touch with John Grabowski or Greg Fretwell they know the scoop and
will help. I like to volunteer people...

On 10/29/2015 2:32 PM, wrote:
This is a 2 story house with the garage on the main floor, and 2
rooflines. Second story roof over house only. First floor roof over
garage, which sticks out about 4 feet from the rest of the main floor
along with the Foyer, and over the front porch, full length of the
house The "attic" of the garage dead-heads against the wall of the
second story of the house in the staircase, with a small window at the
end of the hall, at the top of the stairs, looking out over the garage
roof.

A place I had in Colorado was "4 levels" -- with separate "attics"
above each of them (except the lowest which sat under the "third"
level).

E.g., the attic above the bedrooms (topmost/fourth level) was in no way
connected (nor "connectable") to the attic above the living/dining/kitchen
areas (the "third" level). That, in turn, was not connected (connectable)
to the attic above the family room and office (second level).

Likewise, my childhood home had the attached garage offset (set back 15 ft)
from the main house -- so the "side door" was closer to the street
than the garage's opening (yet one continuous structure). The attic above
the house was entered via a staircase off the kitchen. At the top of
that stair, you could look out a vent and see the roof of the garage
beneath you. I.e., the ridge line of the house and garage were not
aligned. But, you had to enter the garage to enter *its* attic (through
an opening in the ceiling).

The same is true of most homes, he garage has an access point and
the other attics have one or more access points depending on how many
"wings" turn off of the main structure.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 11:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 06:08:18 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 11:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I
wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here
(although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the
Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical
wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

They do have a smaller "push in" connector that is getting more
popular. (copper only)

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

Maybe homeowners should just be calling an electrician if the cost of
"piece of mind" is not an issue.

There are literally billions of wire nuts working satisfactorily here.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:19:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

Maybe homeowners should just be calling an electrician if the cost of
"piece of mind" is not an issue.

There are literally billions of wire nuts working satisfactorily here.

I haven't had a wire nut connection go bad personally, but I have seen some.

I've not used an Alumiconn. So just wondering, if space is limited, would it be easier to fit them into a crowded box?

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:12 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:19:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

Maybe homeowners should just be calling an electrician if the cost of
"piece of mind" is not an issue.

There are literally billions of wire nuts working satisfactorily here.

I haven't had a wire nut connection go bad personally, but I have seen some.

I've not used an Alumiconn. So just wondering, if space is limited, would it be easier to fit them into a crowded box?

Short answer, no.

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.
The listing does allow the wires to be put in the nut without twisting
but it is way too easy to have one not being seated right for someone
who doesn't do it all day.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:12 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:19:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

Maybe homeowners should just be calling an electrician if the cost of
"piece of mind" is not an issue.

There are literally billions of wire nuts working satisfactorily here.

I haven't had a wire nut connection go bad personally, but I have seen some.

I've not used an Alumiconn. So just wondering, if space is limited, would it be easier to fit them into a crowded box?

Yes.

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:26:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at the wire nut.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact, it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

I put them back together, exactly straight and exactly the same length, not twisted, before I put the wire nut back on, and it was still doing fine when I moved out several years later.

I concluded stranded wire should always be twisted and solid never, but that's just my personal opinion.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:26:04 PM UTC-4, The
connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires before
putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact, it's
very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

I put them back together, exactly straight and exactly the same length,
not twisted, before I put the wire nut back on, and it was still doing
fine when I moved out several years later.

I concluded stranded wire should always be twisted and solid never, but
that's just my personal opinion.

Working at a large company and installing lots of wire nuts of all sizes, I
never twisted any wires. The instructions for some say they can be
twisted, but not needed. If correctly installed, the wires will twist when
the nut goes on. I never reuse a wire nut. I never taped any except when
installed on motors or something that viberates. Probably not needed, but
just did it sometimes.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:25:59 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:26:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at the wire nut.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact, it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

I put them back together, exactly straight and exactly the same length, not twisted, before I put the wire nut back on, and it was still doing fine when I moved out several years later.

I concluded stranded wire should always be twisted and solid never, but that's just my personal opinion.
Pretwist solid wires too - particularly aluminum. Actually more
important than for stranded - which WILL twist with a nut.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:25:59 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:26:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

No for both but required for stranded.

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at the wire nut.

They probably cracked the wire there.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact, it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

You need the right tool. It is easy to do with electricians pliers.

wrote in message
news

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

No for both but required for stranded.

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it
was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold
water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at
the wire nut.

They probably cracked the wire there.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires
before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact,
it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

You need the right tool. It is easy to do with electricians pliers.


Can anyone show where the companies recommend or require the wires to be
twisted ? I bet not. All that I have seen say not required and the videos
that show them being instlled do not show anyone twisting the wires together
before putting onthe wire nuts.

If done correctly the nuts twist the wires together and will not be easy to
just pull off.

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:03:21 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:19:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 11:12:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?

You could use alumicons for copper if you were rich since they are
listed for aluminum and copper but why would you?

A wire nut is about 9 cents (US) while the Alumiconn is $2.77 at Home Depot.

But the average homeowner isn't going to need more than a couple a year, and isn't going to use wire nuts enough to be sure of getting a good connection, maybe. It might be worth $2.68 extra for piece of mind.

Maybe homeowners should just be calling an electrician if the cost of
"piece of mind" is not an issue.

There are literally billions of wire nuts working satisfactorily here.

I haven't had a wire nut connection go bad personally, but I have seen some.

I haven't had one actually fail, but I opened a receptacle box while splitting my garage off of
the basement circuit and found the wire nut for the hot wires melted and deformed. These
were the feed wires for the garage.

I had to cut the wire nut off since it had melted around the wires and wouldn't spin off. There's
no way to know when it got hot enough to melt the wire nut. That was the first time I opened the
box after living there for about 5 years.


I've not used an Alumiconn. So just wondering, if space is limited, would it be easier to fit them into a crowded box?

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:58:35 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
news

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

No for both but required for stranded.

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it
was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold
water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at
the wire nut.

They probably cracked the wire there.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires
before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact,
it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

You need the right tool. It is easy to do with electricians pliers.


Can anyone show where the companies recommend or require the wires to be
twisted ? I bet not. All that I have seen say not required and the videos
that show them being instlled do not show anyone twisting the wires together
before putting onthe wire nuts.

If done correctly the nuts twist the wires together and will not be easy to
just pull off.


It is not required nor is it prohibited. Bear in mind these
instructions are made to professionals. I see them made up both ways.

As for twisting the wires, it depends on the nut. The hard "Ideals"
will tend to twist the wires but the soft, live spring models don't. I
have taken them apart and found the wires straight and neatly bundled
in the spring, that will come out of the cup as often as not.

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 6:26:03 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:26:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at the wire nut.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact, it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

I put them back together, exactly straight and exactly the same length, not twisted, before I put the wire nut back on, and it was still doing fine when I moved out several years later.

I concluded stranded wire should always be twisted and solid never, but that's just my personal opinion.

I always twist the stripped end of the stranded wire more so the strands are packed more tightly before making a connection. It makes it easier to properly connect it to solid wire because it will behave much more like a solid wire when the two types are connected with a wire nut. In my experience, a "wire-nut" should always be use when stranded wire is involved because wire-nuts have a round wire spring that won't cut the strands unlike a "wing-nut" which uses a square wire spring which has sharp edges which work better for solid wire. The manufacture's instructions may say different but I've seen square wire spring wing-nuts cut the strands of small stranded wire used in light fixtures and on dimmers. The last wiring job I was involved with, I used the newer push-in connectors. When connecting fixtures with small stranded wire to #12 or #14 solid, I used Wago Lever-Nuts because they're removable and very easy to install, remove and reuse. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page... %20Connectors

http://tinyurl.com/o63keas

[8~{} Uncle Wire Monster

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 8:54:18 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
news

This really comes down to workmanship. A properly made up wire nut
splice will last forever but if you get one of the wires a bit short
and it does not engage the spring, you will have a bad connection.
For your average homeowner, I suggest stripping about an inch of wire,
twisting them up tightly (clockwise), cutting off all but the last
5/8" or so, looking it over carefully to be sure it is uniform, then
screwing on the wire nut.

That's for stranded wire, right?

No for both but required for stranded.

The one failure I saw was on my hot water heater replacement. Since it
was a rental I didn't do it myself. But I came back to a house with cold
water and a burnt smell in the utility room. The wires had burned off at
the wire nut.

They probably cracked the wire there.

The connection was on #12 solid, and the mechanic had twisted the wires
before putting on the wire nut, but they didn't make good enough contact,
it's very hard to twist solid wire tightly enough.

You need the right tool. It is easy to do with electricians pliers.


Can anyone show where the companies recommend or require the wires to be
twisted ? I bet not. All that I have seen say not required and the videos
that show them being instlled do not show anyone twisting the wires together
before putting onthe wire nuts.

If done correctly the nuts twist the wires together and will not be easy to
just pull off.

There's a little video on this page showing installation of wire-nuts. I believe it's on the wrong page but it's under the illustration of the Push-In connectors. ^_^

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-10-...391S/202911032

http://tinyurl.com/puwr4lu

[8~{} Uncle Nutty Monster

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

There's a little video on this page showing installation of wire-nuts. I
believe it's on the wrong page but it's under the illustration of the
Push-In connectors. ^_^

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-10-...391S/202911032

http://tinyurl.com/puwr4lu


They also show using tape which should not be needed. Not sure who made
the video, but go here to the company that makes the connectors for the way
they recommend doing it.

http://www.idealind.com/products/wir...st-on/tip3.jsp

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 10:51:28 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

There's a little video on this page showing installation of wire-nuts. I
believe it's on the wrong page but it's under the illustration of the
Push-In connectors. ^_^

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-10-...391S/202911032

http://tinyurl.com/puwr4lu


They also show using tape which should not be needed. Not sure who made
the video, but go here to the company that makes the connectors for the way
they recommend doing it.

http://www.idealind.com/products/wir...st-on/tip3.jsp

I wish I could find the information on the square spring wing-nuts and the warning about using them on stranded wire. I did find a video that has a pair of goofy frakers made about my favorite connectors that I use in light fixtures but they work for any electrical connections in a dry area. ^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsZQkA2Fh_A

[8~{} Uncle Wago Monster

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
I wish I could find the information on the square spring wing-nuts and the
warning about using them on stranded wire. I did find a video that has a
pair of goofy frakers made about my favorite connectors that I use in
light fixtures but they work for any electrical connections in a dry area.
^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsZQkA2Fh_A

It is going to be interisting in the next few yers to see how well those
connectors and another type called Wall Nuts hold up. It seems they just
rely on the friction on the connectors, just as the recepticls that have
the back stab type connections do.
The sockets seem to have gotten a bad reputation over the years. Maybe by
some inexpensive knock offs of the origional.

One thing I have mixed feelings about is the WAGOconnectors have a slot in
them. Good for checking voltage, but bad as something could get in that
slot and cause problems with a short.

I did see a vidio on using a lot of them in wire racks. With the type of
mounting, I did not see how the wires could be removed if needed without
lots of problems. Working at a company that used lots of instalations like
that makes me want a connector the wires can be removed and reconnected
without any problems.

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 10:20:23 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

It seems they just
rely on the friction on the connectors, just as the recepticls that have
the back stab type connections do.

Part of the problem with the back stabbers was the lateral stresses
put on the connection when you were pushing the device back in the
box. That is one reason why they lifted the listing on 12 ga wire,
There is less stress (bending force) with 14 ga.,
With the splices, it is less actual stress on the connection because
you can guide the wire itself while stuffing the box.

On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 9:15:43 AM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
I wish I could find the information on the square spring wing-nuts and the
warning about using them on stranded wire. I did find a video that has a
pair of goofy frakers made about my favorite connectors that I use in
light fixtures but they work for any electrical connections in a dry area.
^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsZQkA2Fh_A

It is going to be interisting in the next few yers to see how well those
connectors and another type called Wall Nuts hold up. It seems they just
rely on the friction on the connectors, just as the recepticls that have
the back stab type connections do.
The sockets seem to have gotten a bad reputation over the years. Maybe by
some inexpensive knock offs of the origional.

One thing I have mixed feelings about is the WAGOconnectors have a slot in
them. Good for checking voltage, but bad as something could get in that
slot and cause problems with a short.

I did see a vidio on using a lot of them in wire racks. With the type of
mounting, I did not see how the wires could be removed if needed without
lots of problems. Working at a company that used lots of instalations like
that makes me want a connector the wires can be removed and reconnected
without any problems.

I've used a lot of the push-in connectors made by different manufacturers and have never had a problem with them. I've had no problems out of the Wago Lever-nuts either. I started using them 10 years ago after the connectors had been around for a few years. Of course there are guys who don't understand the connectors and will cut them off rather than lift the lever and remove the wires. I used them in light fixtures because a small solid wire from the ballast can slip in one hole and the #14/#12 solid or stranded slips in the other hole with both holes accepting any sized wire within the designed range making a good connection. The lever operated connectors make replacement of a ballast a quick job because it can be done safely with the circuit energized especially for those not equipped with a fuse holder. ^__^

http://www.wago.us/wago/press/press-...etail-1122.jsp

[8~{} Uncle Wago Monster

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:55:59 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

There's a little video on this page showing installation of wire-nuts. I
believe it's on the wrong page but it's under the illustration of the
Push-In connectors. ^_^

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-10-...391S/202911032

http://tinyurl.com/puwr4lu


They also show using tape which should not be needed. Not sure who made
the video, but go here to the company that makes the connectors for the way
they recommend doing it.

http://www.idealind.com/products/wir...st-on/tip3.jsp


That's fine with only 2 wires. What about 3 or 4?? And even with 2 -
one being stranded and one copper, they "admit" they are just wrapping
the stranded around the solid - which would allow the solid to be
pulled out of the joint if the nut was to loosen AT ALL.