After a big rain, I see holes in bare spots in my yard - an inch or so,
sometimes 8 - 10" and quite deep.

Just wondering where the dirt goes? I have no tunneling animals like moles
or gophers that I'm aware of so it doesn't go in their lairs.

Has me curious.

Sink holes are likely a much larger form of the same thing but I know
nothing about them - never even seen one, just read a little about them.

TIA


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 9/25/2015 10:46 AM, KenK wrote:
After a big rain, I see holes in bare spots in my yard - an inch or so,
sometimes 8 - 10" and quite deep.

Just wondering where the dirt goes? I have no tunneling animals like moles
or gophers that I'm aware of so it doesn't go in their lairs.

Has me curious.

Sink holes are likely a much larger form of the same thing but I know
nothing about them - never even seen one, just read a little about them.

Here, holes that aren't caused by burrowing critters (always brings
the image of Bill Murray as groundskeeper to mind! : ) are
usually the result of decayed/decaying roots.

I've felled most of the large trees in the yard. Those that I did early
on were limited to just removing the bulk of the trunk and root crown.
Over time, I started noticing "soft spots" in the yard -- walk along
and your foot "falls" 6 inches into what you thought was firm soil!

As the larger trees had very extensive root systems, I started
removing much more of the "tree" when felling more recent trees.
The most recent tree I cleared an area for 12 ft in each direction
and to a depth of 4 ft to clear the soil of the bulk of the
"buried wood" (many of the roots were still thicker than my thigh
at that distance from the trunk -- lots of "volume" that can disappear
when decay sets in!)

Yesterday, I noticed a largish void developing by the (below grade)
water meter First thought that came to mind was a water leak that is
slowly eroding the surrounding soil. (this may, in fact, actually
be the case, but...) On opening the meter vault, I noticed it
*full* of soil (which shouldn't be there as it is *above* the
level of the pipes). So, I now suspect it may be some critter
thats found the soil in that area easier to manipulate (because it
had previously been excavated for the plumbing, then refilled) than
the hard-pan/caliche that lies elsewhere.

On 25 Sep 2015 17:46:56 GMT, KenK wrote:

After a big rain, I see holes in bare spots in my yard - an inch or so,
sometimes 8 - 10" and quite deep.

Just wondering where the dirt goes? I have no tunneling animals like moles
or gophers that I'm aware of so it doesn't go in their lairs.

Has me curious.

Sink holes are likely a much larger form of the same thing but I know
nothing about them - never even seen one, just read a little about them.

TIA

You are probably seeing erosion. IIRC you are in AZ, very unlikely you
have sink holes, like you might see in Florida. Flash floods can
erode soil in a short time. The soil is like talc powder, so it cannot
absorb water, in desert regions.

Don Y wrote in news:mu4240$839$1@dont-
email.me:

Here, holes that aren't caused by burrowing critters (always brings
the image of Bill Murray as groundskeeper to mind! : ) are
usually the result of decayed/decaying roots.


I doubt that's the case here. Only one tree in the yard, a rather small one
- 7" diameter trunk, cut down some 20 or more years ago. Its stump is far
from where the holes appear. So it's possible but not likely.

Any other trees have not left a stump and would have been removed well over
30 years ago, before I moved here.

Thanks for the idea though!


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

Don Y wrote:

Yesterday, I noticed a largish void developing by the (below grade)
water meter First thought that came to mind was a water leak that is
slowly eroding the surrounding soil. (this may, in fact, actually
be the case, but...) On opening the meter vault, I noticed it
*full* of soil (which shouldn't be there as it is *above* the
level of the pipes). So, I now suspect it may be some critter
thats found the soil in that area easier to manipulate (because it
had previously been excavated for the plumbing, then refilled) than
the hard-pan/caliche that lies elsewhere.

I have to line the bottom of my meter and valve boxes with concrete board or
bricks to keep moles from filling the boxes with dirt.

On 9/25/2015 12:11 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:

Yesterday, I noticed a largish void developing by the (below grade)
water meter First thought that came to mind was a water leak that is
slowly eroding the surrounding soil. (this may, in fact, actually
be the case, but...) On opening the meter vault, I noticed it
*full* of soil (which shouldn't be there as it is *above* the
level of the pipes). So, I now suspect it may be some critter
thats found the soil in that area easier to manipulate (because it
had previously been excavated for the plumbing, then refilled) than
the hard-pan/caliche that lies elsewhere.

I have to line the bottom of my meter and valve boxes with concrete board or
bricks to keep moles from filling the boxes with dirt.

Really? I poured slabs (with a small drainage hole in the center)
for each of my irrigation valve boxes. Primarily to keep the interiors
of the boxes relatively clean (the openings into the boxes are sealed
with caulk so dirt won't infiltrate from local erosion).

But, the water meter is a touchy area. Technically, everything up to
(and including?) the meter is the City's; everything AFTER the meter
is mine.

Meters tend to be located in pairs -- two adjacent homes will have their
meters ~1-2 ft apart. ISTR the water line comes *up* from below
to a point between the two meters (i.e., my meter is fed 'from the
left' while my neighbor's is fed 'from the right') at which point
it T's into a horizontal that feeds the two "opposing" meters.

So, to pour a slab under the meter, I'd need to either be very meticulous
(soas not to disturb/damage the meter) *or* get the city to remove it,
temporarily. And, I'd still need to build a "wall" around the slab
(i.e., make a real vault!) to prevent entry from the sides (where the
pipes enter/exit).

I guess I'd want to know, for sure, that this was the problem (i.e., get
my hands around the critters neck!) before taking on a job like that.

I'll try to find a time when the house water use is "none" and photo
the meter indicator, then anotehr snapshot some hours later. If
no visible movement, conclude the problem *can't* be water leakage
(unless it is coming from neighbor's meter -- one of his frequent
guests likes to park *on* the meter box!) and MUST be something else
("Golfers" : )

Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 12:11 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:

Yesterday, I noticed a largish void developing by the (below grade)
water meter First thought that came to mind was a water leak that
is slowly eroding the surrounding soil. (this may, in fact,
actually be the case, but...) On opening the meter vault, I
noticed it *full* of soil (which shouldn't be there as it is
*above* the level of the pipes). So, I now suspect it may be some critter
thats found the soil in that area easier to manipulate (because it
had previously been excavated for the plumbing, then refilled) than
the hard-pan/caliche that lies elsewhere.

I have to line the bottom of my meter and valve boxes with concrete
board or bricks to keep moles from filling the boxes with dirt.

Really? I poured slabs (with a small drainage hole in the center)
for each of my irrigation valve boxes. Primarily to keep the
interiors of the boxes relatively clean (the openings into the boxes
are sealed with caulk so dirt won't infiltrate from local erosion).

But, the water meter is a touchy area. Technically, everything up to
(and including?) the meter is the City's; everything AFTER the meter
is mine.

Meters tend to be located in pairs -- two adjacent homes will have
their meters ~1-2 ft apart. ISTR the water line comes *up* from below
to a point between the two meters (i.e., my meter is fed 'from the
left' while my neighbor's is fed 'from the right') at which point
it T's into a horizontal that feeds the two "opposing" meters.

So, to pour a slab under the meter, I'd need to either be very
meticulous (soas not to disturb/damage the meter) *or* get the city
to remove it, temporarily. And, I'd still need to build a "wall"
around the slab (i.e., make a real vault!) to prevent entry from the
sides (where the pipes enter/exit).

I guess I'd want to know, for sure, that this was the problem (i.e.,
get my hands around the critters neck!) before taking on a job like
that.
I'll try to find a time when the house water use is "none" and photo
the meter indicator, then anotehr snapshot some hours later. If
no visible movement, conclude the problem *can't* be water leakage
(unless it is coming from neighbor's meter -- one of his frequent
guests likes to park *on* the meter box!) and MUST be something else
("Golfers" : )

Clean the box out. A shop vac works well for this. The moles will re-fill it.
They would quickly fill mine enough that the meter reader would have to wipe off
the meter face (They never bothered to put the metal cover of the meter down) to
be able to read it.

Just pull the outer meter box out of the ground after digging it loose around
it. Then slide concrete board, bricks, or heavy plastic under the meter, and
around the pipes coming up from below, so that the box can be set flat on that
layer. Then fill in around the box. Keep any gaps small enough that moles cannot
push dirt though the gaps. A line of bricks under the outside edge can be used
to bring the origional box higher as needed.

On 9/25/2015 1:26 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:

I'll try to find a time when the house water use is "none" and photo
the meter indicator, then anotehr snapshot some hours later. If
no visible movement, conclude the problem *can't* be water leakage
(unless it is coming from neighbor's meter -- one of his frequent
guests likes to park *on* the meter box!) and MUST be something else
("Golfers" : )

Clean the box out. A shop vac works well for this. The moles will re-fill it.
They would quickly fill mine enough that the meter reader would have to wipe off
the meter face (They never bothered to put the metal cover of the meter down) to
be able to read it.

Are you just offering this as a way to test if it is moles/critters?
I.e., instead of checking the meter for water consumption (which, I
guess, wouldn't tell me if there was a leak upstream of the meter or
from the neighbor's meter)?

Just pull the outer meter box out of the ground after digging it loose around
it. Then slide concrete board, bricks, or heavy plastic under the meter, and

I could possibly use a large (12"-15") square "paver". There's not much
clearance between the valve box and the concrete curb, on the one side,
and the sidewalk, on the other. A 12" paver might be a bit of a stretch...

around the pipes coming up from below, so that the box can be set flat on that
layer.

I don't think the cast iron (?) box is tall enough to be supported from below
the meter (and still reach grade level). For the irrigation "vaults",
I made a form and just "poured" a short wall around the perimeter of the
slab (with openings for the pipe going in and pipes coming out) and
set the (plastic) valve box atop that. Then, filled the gaps around each
of the pipes with caulking compound to prevent soil from infiltrating through
those openings (the caulk being temporary enough taht I could easily
remove and replace it if I ever needed to open the unions and remove the
manifold assembly for service).

Then fill in around the box. Keep any gaps small enough that moles cannot
push dirt though the gaps.

Aren't moles *really* small? E.g., for the valve boxes, the clearance around
each of the inlet/outlet pipes was on the order of an inch. I'd imagine this
would be *huge* in "mole terms"?

A line of bricks under the outside edge can be used
to bring the origional box higher as needed.

Ah, that would be easier than pouring the walls like I did for the valve boxes!

I'll have to make some time to explore this more carefully. Is there something
that the critters are *seeking* in that area (moisture?) that I could
similarly interrupt (make them NOT want to be there)?

Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 1:26 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:

I'll try to find a time when the house water use is "none" and photo
the meter indicator, then anotehr snapshot some hours later. If
no visible movement, conclude the problem *can't* be water leakage
(unless it is coming from neighbor's meter -- one of his frequent
guests likes to park *on* the meter box!) and MUST be something else
("Golfers" : )

Clean the box out. A shop vac works well for this. The moles will
re-fill it. They would quickly fill mine enough that the meter
reader would have to wipe off the meter face (They never bothered to
put the metal cover of the meter down) to be able to read it.

Are you just offering this as a way to test if it is moles/critters?
I.e., instead of checking the meter for water consumption (which, I
guess, wouldn't tell me if there was a leak upstream of the meter or
from the neighbor's meter)?

If it's moles, the dirt in there will generally be quite loose, since it was
pushed up from below, and doesn't normally get rained on.



Just pull the outer meter box out of the ground after digging it
loose around it. Then slide concrete board, bricks, or heavy plastic
under the meter, and

I could possibly use a large (12"-15") square "paver". There's not
much clearance between the valve box and the concrete curb, on the
one side, and the sidewalk, on the other. A 12" paver might be a bit of a
stretch...

The layer at the bottom merely has to be larger than the bottom of the box.



around the pipes coming up from below, so that the box can be set
flat on that layer.

I don't think the cast iron (?) box is tall enough to be supported
from below the meter (and still reach grade level). For the
irrigation "vaults", I made a form and just "poured" a short wall around the
perimeter of
the slab (with openings for the pipe going in and pipes coming out) and
set the (plastic) valve box atop that. Then, filled the gaps around
each of the pipes with caulking compound to prevent soil from infiltrating
through those openings (the caulk being temporary enough taht I could
easily remove and replace it if I ever needed to open the unions and remove
the manifold assembly for service).

Then fill in around the box. Keep any gaps small enough that moles
cannot push dirt though the gaps.

Aren't moles *really* small? E.g., for the valve boxes, the
clearance around each of the inlet/outlet pipes was on the order of
an inch. I'd imagine this would be *huge* in "mole terms"?

1" is about the size of their holes they push the dirt through. You can cut a
ring/washer of plastic with a hole to match the pipe out of plastic, like the
bottom of a clorox bottle. Cut from the outside to the inside of it, then flex
it over the pipe to form a barrier. Put it on the outside of the box/floor and
the dirt will hold it in place.


A line of bricks under the outside edge can be used
to bring the origional box higher as needed.

Ah, that would be easier than pouring the walls like I did for the
valve boxes!
I'll have to make some time to explore this more carefully. Is there
something that the critters are *seeking* in that area (moisture?)
that I could similarly interrupt (make them NOT want to be there)?

They love an easy and safe (from cats?) place to get rid of their dirt.

Moles eat critters in the ground like worms. Trapping, or cats are a couple of
ways to get them, but neither is quick. Check out the following site.

http://themoleman.com/

On 9/25/2015 3:36 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 1:26 PM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:

I'll try to find a time when the house water use is "none" and photo
the meter indicator, then anotehr snapshot some hours later. If
no visible movement, conclude the problem *can't* be water leakage
(unless it is coming from neighbor's meter -- one of his frequent
guests likes to park *on* the meter box!) and MUST be something else
("Golfers" : )

Clean the box out. A shop vac works well for this. The moles will
re-fill it. They would quickly fill mine enough that the meter
reader would have to wipe off the meter face (They never bothered to
put the metal cover of the meter down) to be able to read it.

Are you just offering this as a way to test if it is moles/critters?
I.e., instead of checking the meter for water consumption (which, I
guess, wouldn't tell me if there was a leak upstream of the meter or
from the neighbor's meter)?

If it's moles, the dirt in there will generally be quite loose, since it was
pushed up from below, and doesn't normally get rained on.

There's a LOT of soil in the box! The meter is essentially buried.
In the past, it was always visible/easily read.

Just pull the outer meter box out of the ground after digging it
loose around it. Then slide concrete board, bricks, or heavy plastic
under the meter, and

I could possibly use a large (12"-15") square "paver". There's not
much clearance between the valve box and the concrete curb, on the
one side, and the sidewalk, on the other. A 12" paver might be a bit of a
stretch...

The layer at the bottom merely has to be larger than the bottom of the box.

Understood. The metal box is pretty large. It is definitely longer
than a 12" paver's length. It might be just wide enough to fit on a
carefully aligned 12" paver *width*. The problem will be getting clear
of the curb and/or sidewalk to position the paver (or anything else
that I try to slide under it)

I just learned that my neighbor (adjacent water meter) called the
city to complain of a "high bill". So, it could be that his meter
is leaking which might be compounding the problem.

Then fill in around the box. Keep any gaps small enough that moles
cannot push dirt though the gaps.

Aren't moles *really* small? E.g., for the valve boxes, the
clearance around each of the inlet/outlet pipes was on the order of
an inch. I'd imagine this would be *huge* in "mole terms"?

1" is about the size of their holes they push the dirt through. You can cut a
ring/washer of plastic with a hole to match the pipe out of plastic, like the
bottom of a clorox bottle.

Ah! Good idea! I opted for the caulking compound for the irrigation
lines as it's easy to fit after-the-fact (the pipes lay *on* the
cement slab that I poured so getting around/under them is a problem...
but, easy to just pump a boatload of caulk on/around them!)

Cut from the outside to the inside of it, then flex
it over the pipe to form a barrier. Put it on the outside of the box/floor and
the dirt will hold it in place.

Understood.

A line of bricks under the outside edge can be used
to bring the origional box higher as needed.

Ah, that would be easier than pouring the walls like I did for the
valve boxes!
I'll have to make some time to explore this more carefully. Is there
something that the critters are *seeking* in that area (moisture?)
that I could similarly interrupt (make them NOT want to be there)?

They love an easy and safe (from cats?) place to get rid of their dirt.

No cats, here. Though "death from above" would be pretty common for
anything that crawls on the ground and is smaller than a human infant.

Moles eat critters in the ground like worms. Trapping, or cats are a couple of
ways to get them, but neither is quick. Check out the following site.

http://themoleman.com/

Thanks! Now that the rain is out of the forecast, I can poke around in
there.

In ,
KenK typed:
After a big rain, I see holes in bare spots in my yard - an inch or
so, sometimes 8 - 10" and quite deep.

Just wondering where the dirt goes? I have no tunneling animals like
moles or gophers that I'm aware of so it doesn't go in their lairs.

Has me curious.

Sink holes are likely a much larger form of the same thing but I know
nothing about them - never even seen one, just read a little about
them.


Just a guess on my part, but one possibility may be along the lines that Don
Y mentioned -- buried brush, trees, construction debris, etc. from years ago
when the land was cleared and the home was built. I know of a condominium
complex not too far from me in New Jersey that had a similar problem 10 or
15 years ago. The land between the buildings was caving in due to prior
construction debris, brush, and trees being buried when the property was
built. Similarly, in Philadelphia PA here was an area where row homes were
built on ground that had poor fill underneath and the homes started settling
and collapsing. I think it may have been called the Tioga section of
Philadelphia, or Tioga homes, or something like that -- not sure.

Another guess would be if the water table under your property is being
depleted by water usage and causing the ground to settle.

And, finally, maybe some kind of broken pipe or water leak in a water pipe
that leads to your house but before the meter so you don't notice a high
water bill?

Are your neighbors experiencing anything similar in their yards?

Don Y wrote:
....

for trapping moles we use a loop type that gets
them most of the time it is set off but the traps
are not easy to set (must be at the proper depth
and on a regular run). you need some hand strength
too.

however, once you've found a run they use you can
usually trap them within a day or two (they eat
several times a day and so must travel their tunnels
looking for food).

if you are into tanning hides moles have the most
remarkably soft fur.


songbird

In ,
TomR typed:
In ,
KenK typed:
After a big rain, I see holes in bare spots in my yard - an inch or
so, sometimes 8 - 10" and quite deep.

Just wondering where the dirt goes? I have no tunneling animals like
moles or gophers that I'm aware of so it doesn't go in their lairs.

Has me curious.

Sink holes are likely a much larger form of the same thing but I know
nothing about them - never even seen one, just read a little about
them.

. . . . . Similarly, in
Philadelphia PA here was an area where row homes were built on ground
that had poor fill underneath and the homes started settling and
collapsing. I think it may have been called the Tioga section of
Philadelphia, or Tioga homes, or something like that -- not sure.

My mistake. It was not the Tioga section; it was the Logan section. And,
the poor fill that was used was "ash" and not construction debris, brush,
trees, etc.


http://philadelphianeighborhoods.com...fter-25-years/

On 9/26/2015 8:02 AM, songbird wrote:
Don Y wrote:
....

for trapping moles we use a loop type that gets
them most of the time it is set off but the traps
are not easy to set (must be at the proper depth
and on a regular run). you need some hand strength
too.

I was looking for something simpler -- like filling a hole
with some toxic substance and waiting for them to
traipse through it.

however, once you've found a run they use you can
usually trap them within a day or two (they eat
several times a day and so must travel their tunnels
looking for food).

if you are into tanning hides moles have the most
remarkably soft fur.

Oren wrote in news:8f3b0bdmriksa4lmjnjppmu38i7qqums7g@
4ax.com:

IIRC you are in AZ

Congratulations! Good memory. Much better than mine.


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 26 Sep 2015 16:53:51 GMT, KenK wrote:

Oren wrote in news:8f3b0bdmriksa4lmjnjppmu38i7qqums7g@
4ax.com:

IIRC you are in AZ

Congratulations! Good memory. Much better than mine.

G Do you have a land Tortoise? (Gopher) Maybe one looking for a
place to tunnel so they can hibernate over winter...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoise

Don Y wrote:
....
I was looking for something simpler -- like filling a hole
with some toxic substance and waiting for them to
traipse through it.

never seen that sort of thing for moles, but they
do have poison worms or grubs that supposedly work.


songbird