"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:32:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:Tv-

stuff snipped

Every GM car I bought new needed warranty repairs within the first
couple of months. I've had 3 Sonatas and one needed one repair under
warranty after 2 1/2 years and 57,000 miles.

Don't they have an unsually good warranty compared to US cars? That
would
inspire them to keep overall costs down by building them correctly in the
first place!

Everything is 5 year 60, drive train is 10 years 100,000
I'm on my third one and every body joint is perfectly aligned, good
paint, etc. I'm waiting for the 16's to come out and may get a new
one.

I read this and said to myself "16's"? Sixteen what? What an odd name for a
new car model. Then I realized it's next year. Oy. Brain freeze.

My wife now drives a Honda but wants to trade it in for something more
comfortable. She reported she had read in Autoweek that all the German cars
she was interested in (BMW and Audi) were burning oil right off the showroom
floor. This site claims it's normal because of high heat and thin oil in
modern engines but owners aren't too happy with adding a can of oil every
month.

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...ever-1.5208291

Dear Doctor: I had the oil changed by the dealership on my 2011 Audi A4 at
22,000 miles. Then at 28,000 miles the oil was a quart low. Is this normal?
I'm using synthetic oil and drive about 250 miles a week on highways. Also,
when did we do away with dipsticks? -- Debra

Dear Debra: You are using a quart at about 6,000 miles. A quart of oil
consumption at even 1,000 miles-plus is considered normal. The oil we use
today is very thin. Today's engines run at hotter temperatures. This equals
oil usage. On some vehicles the engine and transmission fluid dipsticks left
us in the early 2000 model years, as did the conventional oil and filter
change every 3,000 miles or 3 month intervals. Some vehicles have an annual
oil change interval while some also hold 9-plus quarts of oil and most
require full-synthetic oil.



Here's the link to the Consumer Reports article referenced by Autoweek:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...tion/index.htm

We focused on 498,900 vehicles from the 2010 to 2014 model years, many of
which are still under their powertrain warranty. Several engines emerged as
the main offenders: Audi's 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder and
3.0-liter V6, BMW's 4.8-liter V8 and twin-*turbocharged 4.4-liter V8, and to
a lesser extent Subaru's 3.6-liter six-cylinder and 2.0- and 2.5-liter
four-cylinders.

Those engines are in models such as the Audi A3, Audi A4, Audi A5, Audi A6,
and Audi Q5; BMW 5, BMW 6, and BMW 7 series, and BMW X5; and Subaru
Forester, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Legacy, and Subaru Outback.

The worst case showed that, overall, owners of BMW 5 Series vehicles with V8
engines were 27 times as likely to suffer excessive oil consumption as
owners of an average vehicle.

--
Bobby G.

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 10:58:49 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Tech did not do leak test B4 recharging? It all depends what the exact
problem is. Leak can be repaired but if it was where another leak could
occur... Tech has to discuss with owner with honesty.

That's the problem. I've been trying to come up with a reliable national
figure for heating and cooling scams, but haven't found it yet. What I have
found is example after example of TV stations investigating and finding
clear examples of fraud.

You immediately jump to the conclusion that it has to be
fraud. How about if the techs know from experience that the
residential systems today are such pieces of crap that once
they have a leak, it's just not worth fixing? That if they
fix it, it's not cheap and the system typically winds up
needing to be replaced soon anyway? Not saying that I know
that's the case, but it's a possibility. People here seem
to agree that while systems used to typically last 25+ years,
today 15 is more typical.



It's just too easy to scam someone who is
completely uneducated in the subject matter. But is it reasonable for a 60
year old widow to be an A/C mechanic? There are also an awful lot of former
employees who tell how easy it is to screw up a customer's A/C so they end
up selling them a new system.

There you go again with further expanding it into deliberate
sabotage, which there was absolutely zero evidence of in this
case.

On 7/23/2015 11:11 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

My furnace/AC is 17 years old. Day before yesterday I had water all
over the basement floor. It's got 3 drains that go to 3/4 PVC.
I took off the exhaust vent to get at the panel covering the
evaporator and verified the evap trough wasn't draining.
Nice and clean in there. Surprised me.
Cut the PVC on the vertical and taped a hose to it leading to the
sump. Fixed. I'll replace most of the PVC later.
There's about 35' of it.


Not that you asked, but....

Some times, you can blow the crud out with
air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to
seal where the air gun goes in.

It's wise to make a way to pour your own water
in, and once or twice a year to pour in hot
water with a bunch of bleach.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 07:58:57 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 7/23/2015 11:11 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

My furnace/AC is 17 years old. Day before yesterday I had water all
over the basement floor. It's got 3 drains that go to 3/4 PVC.
I took off the exhaust vent to get at the panel covering the
evaporator and verified the evap trough wasn't draining.
Nice and clean in there. Surprised me.
Cut the PVC on the vertical and taped a hose to it leading to the
sump. Fixed. I'll replace most of the PVC later.
There's about 35' of it.


Not that you asked, but....

Some times, you can blow the crud out with
air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to
seal where the air gun goes in.

It's wise to make a way to pour your own water
in, and once or twice a year to pour in hot
water with a bunch of bleach.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind before I do anything else.

On 7/24/2015 10:59 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 07:58:57 -0400, Stormin Mormon

My furnace/AC is 17 years old. Day before yesterday I had water all
over the basement floor. It's got 3 drains that go to 3/4 PVC.
I took off the exhaust vent to get at the panel covering the
evaporator and verified the evap trough wasn't draining.
Nice and clean in there. Surprised me.
Cut the PVC on the vertical and taped a hose to it leading to the
sump. Fixed. I'll replace most of the PVC later.
There's about 35' of it.


Not that you asked, but....

Some times, you can blow the crud out with
air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to
seal where the air gun goes in.

It's wise to make a way to pour your own water
in, and once or twice a year to pour in hot
water with a bunch of bleach.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind before I do anything else.


Might be easier. And who knows, the new PVC might
clog the same way, next year.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Some times, you can blow the crud out with
air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to
seal where the air gun goes in.


When the pipe plugs I usually use the shop vac to suck out the line. Just
easier to get to in my case.

Robert Green posted for all of us...



"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:32:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:Tv-

stuff snipped

Every GM car I bought new needed warranty repairs within the first
couple of months. I've had 3 Sonatas and one needed one repair under
warranty after 2 1/2 years and 57,000 miles.

Don't they have an unsually good warranty compared to US cars? That
would
inspire them to keep overall costs down by building them correctly in the
first place!

Everything is 5 year 60, drive train is 10 years 100,000
I'm on my third one and every body joint is perfectly aligned, good
paint, etc. I'm waiting for the 16's to come out and may get a new
one.

I read this and said to myself "16's"? Sixteen what? What an odd name for a
new car model. Then I realized it's next year. Oy. Brain freeze.

My wife now drives a Honda but wants to trade it in for something more
comfortable. She reported she had read in Autoweek that all the German cars
she was interested in (BMW and Audi) were burning oil right off the showroom
floor. This site claims it's normal because of high heat and thin oil in
modern engines but owners aren't too happy with adding a can of oil every
month.

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...ever-1.5208291

Dear Doctor: I had the oil changed by the dealership on my 2011 Audi A4 at
22,000 miles. Then at 28,000 miles the oil was a quart low. Is this normal?
I'm using synthetic oil and drive about 250 miles a week on highways. Also,
when did we do away with dipsticks? -- Debra

Dear Debra: You are using a quart at about 6,000 miles. A quart of oil
consumption at even 1,000 miles-plus is considered normal. The oil we use
today is very thin. Today's engines run at hotter temperatures. This equals
oil usage. On some vehicles the engine and transmission fluid dipsticks left
us in the early 2000 model years, as did the conventional oil and filter
change every 3,000 miles or 3 month intervals. Some vehicles have an annual
oil change interval while some also hold 9-plus quarts of oil and most
require full-synthetic oil.



Here's the link to the Consumer Reports article referenced by Autoweek:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...tion/index.htm

We focused on 498,900 vehicles from the 2010 to 2014 model years, many of
which are still under their powertrain warranty. Several engines emerged as
the main offenders: Audi's 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder and
3.0-liter V6, BMW's 4.8-liter V8 and twin-*turbocharged 4.4-liter V8, and to
a lesser extent Subaru's 3.6-liter six-cylinder and 2.0- and 2.5-liter
four-cylinders.

Those engines are in models such as the Audi A3, Audi A4, Audi A5, Audi A6,
and Audi Q5; BMW 5, BMW 6, and BMW 7 series, and BMW X5; and Subaru
Forester, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Legacy, and Subaru Outback.

The worst case showed that, overall, owners of BMW 5 Series vehicles with V8
engines were 27 times as likely to suffer excessive oil consumption as
owners of an average vehicle.

German cars have over engineered expensive parts.

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:51:24 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Some times, you can blow the crud out with
air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to
seal where the air gun goes in.


When the pipe plugs I usually use the shop vac to suck out the line. Just
easier to get to in my case.


Agree. You can also make a tool: Diyvac.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyvPR7yMqbk

Or purchase a flexible tool: SpeedClean.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dO7kTdmaMA

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 23 Jul 2015 06:05:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:


Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

He shouldnt' have done all that work without knowing it would work when
he was done.

He should have explained the problem to the customer and told him the
customer has two choices, A) For the repairman to put enough
refrgerant in the system so he can test the system. If it tests good,
he'll be able to re-use what he uesd when he evacuates it and then puts
it back in. The customer will owe for the refridge and fixing the
leak. $m

If it tests bad, the customer has to pay for the refrirgerant and the
service call. $n Or he can go ahead and fix whatever else is
broken. $p

Or, he should tell the customer at the same time, B) I can just fix the
leak I found, but the system might not work because of other problems.
I'll tell you what's needed then and you can decide whether or not to go
further If you say no, then you'll just owe for my fixing the leak, and
recharging, which is $m, like above.

If you say yes, it's $p.

The expensive complete repair comes out the same price.

The two paths to get there, if not completed, are different prices,

Don't tell me the right choice is to sell the man an AC he doesn't need.

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 5:15:51 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

He shouldnt' have done all that work without knowing it would work when
he was done.


Good grief. There are all kinds of repairs where you don't
know for sure if it's going to work or if it's going to last.
A repair guy isn't superman with X-ray vision. You could fix
one leak and maybe they know from experience that with the
crap systems today that only last 10 to 15 years, that once
you have one leak, you typically have more in another year
or two. I'm not saying I know that for a fact, just that
just maybe the companies involved may know from experience more
than those of us that don't service these every day. Also, these
systems are greatly affected by the competence of the installers.
If you don't give a damn, contaminate the thing when you
install it, then they are not going to last, have a higher
failure rate, etc. How about the tech sees a tag on the eqpt that
says "XYZ HVAC" and he knows they are shysters and their systems
have lots of problems?



He should have explained the problem to the customer and told him the
customer has two choices, A) For the repairman to put enough
refrgerant in the system so he can test the system. If it tests good,
he'll be able to re-use what he uesd when he evacuates it and then puts
it back in. The customer will owe for the refridge and fixing the
leak. $m


As reported, he topped it off a month or so ago and it worked
for a month until apparently the refrigerant was gone, again.


Or, he should tell the customer at the same time, B) I can just fix the
leak I found, but the system might not work because of other problems.

And then after $500 or $1000 worth of work, the customer says
"you didn't fix it, I'm not paying". You obviously don't have
experience with how many people operate today. They forget
what was told to them and/or ignore what's in writing. Or you
fix it and six months later, it craps out again. Many customers
are going to be kind of like you..... "Mr. Repair guy, you
should have made sure that it was going to last before you fixed it."
With a new system, you avoid all that.



Don't tell me the right choice is to sell the man an AC he doesn't need.

You're jumping to the conclusion that a new system is totally
unjustified. It's possible the companies have
experience and know what often happens and are basing their advice
in part on that. And I never tried to tell you or anyone that the
right choice was a new system. In fact, in the original post, I said
that if it were my system, I would have insisted they search for
the source of the actual leak and then make the determination.
But on the other hand, these systems
seem to last 10 to 15 years today. This one was already 5 years old
with most of that previous history unknown.
I'm not sure how much more I'd put into it. That
original service call was probably $200+. Fixing a leak, even if
it doesn't involve a new evaporator, etc is going to cost hundreds
more.

"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Nowadays, ripped off? That is your fault.

Respectfully disagree, Mr. Hwang. To be able to protect yourself from
fraudsters typically requires having a lot of information and
education the average person just doesn't have. It's not just a
problem with cars, but with home repairs, choosing doctors, etc.

Say you're on the NJ Turnpike and you stop for gas and while you're
getting fueled you go to the men's room. When you come back to the
car, a mechanic, acting like a genuine hero, says (after sprinkling
iron filings) your fan belt is going to fail in very short order. If
you're the average guy and not much of a mechanic, you'd think about
what happens if your fan fails somewhere further down the road, or at
night and perhaps decide to let him "adjust it."

Most every where they try to rip you off.

I wouldn't say most everywhere, but it's getting more and more
prevalent as technology gets more and more complicated. Compare the
Chrysler Air Temp furnance (from the 40's) that was here when I moved
in. I could fix it myself because it was utterly simple. Not so the
modern furnace. How many people (outside of AHR) know what a draft
inducer motor is or why such a (relatively) cheap item could cause
total furnace failure?

I do most maintenance myself even if I have to invest some
special tools. Gives me peace of mind.

I used to, too but age has curtailed a lot of my ability to do things
like crawl under cars. Worse, yet, when I watch people work I often
shudder at how poorly they've been trained.

I couldn't agree more. I used to do all my own repairs (home, appliance,
auto, electrical, etc.) but can't anymore. Technology has taken over,
and what used to be a simple auto repair takes lots of tech knowledge and
sometimes special tools and meters. I gave up about five years ago. Now
I hire repairmen, and I have to ask myself 'do I trust this repairman, or
not?', and live with the consequences, good or bad.

Long story short...A few months ago, my 18 year old AC was not cooling.
A new fan was installed, but the problem persisted. Then I was told it
was the compressor, and that they could replace the entire system,
including the furnace, for $10K. I called another company in for a second
opinion. The second opinion was that the first company installed the
wrong fan. It turned out they did install the wrong fan. I went back to
the first company, and they had egg on their face. They came out and
installed the proper fan, and it's been cool since.

I complained to their customer service manager, that they almost cost me
$10K, and I asked for reimbursement for the second opinion. They
reimbursed me for the cost of the second opinion, and gave me a 12-month
service contract on both my solar and HVAC equipment, free.

Only thing I am not good at is carpentry. Maybe because I am lefty.

(-; You "sinister" person, you!

http://wordinfo.info/unit/3777/s:and

In the study of origins, it was always better to be "right" than
wrong, or even "left"!
Words associated with the right side are generally complimentary or
have signified something desirable, but those pointing to the left are
quite the opposite. For example, even in modern times, everyone tries
to get up on the "right" side of the bed and hopes to stay on the
"right" side of one's boss; that is, if the person is in his/her
"right" mind.

Other languages reflect the same bias in favor of the right and
against the left. In Latin, the word for "right" is dexter, from which
has come the English word dexterous or dextrous; meaning "skillful".
This is what a person who uses the "right" hand is expected to be.

An ambidextrous person should be even more skillful, since he is
described as having two "right hands.

On the other hand, the Latin sinister is the left hand, that is, the
wrong hand. Furthermore, left-handers were thought to be unlucky.

In Roman augury, or fortune telling, birds that appeared on the left
side were interpreted as being bad luck; however, those on the right
side presaged good luck. Now, in modern English applications, sinister
means evil or ominous.

"Lefties" have not been regarded with a positive attitude even in
French and Old English
The French word for "left" is gauche (GOHSH), which indicates
awkwardness or lack of social graces. "A guest who drinks from the
finger bowl, no matter how dexterously he handles it, is still
gauche."

English also has favored the right over the left. The word "right"
developed from Old English riht, which meant "to lead straight; to
guide; to rule." Left evolved from Old English lyft, which meant
"weak".

English prejudice against the left can be seen in such terms as "two
left feet", meaning "awkward", and "left-handed compliment", which is
not considered as a compliment!

-Excerpts from The Story Behind the Word by Morton S. Freeman;
iSi Press; Philadelphia; 1985; pages 228-229.




This left/thing has always fascinated me. I once heard that left handed
people were on average, smarter than right handed people. I began
observing left handed people, and they were mostly my bosses. I'm right
handed.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:26:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.


There's risks in any case. Though, replace the entire
system has the most money pay out with the least risk
to the HVAC guys.


And the most profitable, considering a fat markup on the equipment
plus the labor.