A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

On 7/22/2015 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


By closing the service valves, you can isolate
the halves of the system. Run it up to some
pressure, close the valves. Wait over night
(system turned off). Connect gages and open
the valves. See if the leak is condenser or
evaporator. Might be a fairly simple repair.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


By closing the service valves, you can isolate
the halves of the system. Run it up to some
pressure, close the valves. Wait over night
(system turned off). Connect gages and open
the valves. See if the leak is condenser or
evaporator. Might be a fairly simple repair.


What is it with the AC system that a simple leak can not be found ? Often
traces of oil will be on the lines. Can't some dye be put in that glows
under UV ? There are several kinds of leak detectors. The ultra sonic, and
the chemical sniffer type. That is not including the very old propane
cylinder type for the R-22.
At 5 years old I would think there would be some kind of warrenty.

Guess it is like most anything else, just a general incompenent service
people. I am not knocking all of them as I worked in a plant as an
electrician and instrument man myself. Some of us were good and some were
just along for the ride.

About 10 years ago I bought a house that had about a 15 or 20 year old heat
pump. After 2 years it started freezing up outside in the winter. Called
the man and he replaced the fan and capacitor. Two days later it froze up
again. I don't know why he would replace the fan as it was running when I
checked it. I was at work when he did the work and my wife was at home.
Seemed to me like it was not going into the defrost cycle. Called him back
out and he mentioned something about a board needed to be replaced but the
sysem was obsolete. Ran him off and had the whole unit replaced except the
duct work. Probably will save money in the long run due to a beter heating
and cooling factor.

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 1:22:55 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


By closing the service valves, you can isolate
the halves of the system. Run it up to some
pressure, close the valves. Wait over night
(system turned off). Connect gages and open
the valves. See if the leak is condenser or
evaporator. Might be a fairly simple repair.


What is it with the AC system that a simple leak can not be found ? Often
traces of oil will be on the lines. Can't some dye be put in that glows
under UV ? There are several kinds of leak detectors. The ultra sonic, and
the chemical sniffer type.

I think they typically use the electronic sniffing type that
detects the refrigerant itself. But how well they work, how
easy or hard it is to find the leak, how long it takes, IDK.
If the leak is in an inaccessible part of the evaporator,
will it find it? Lines are not always all accessible either.

If it were me, I would have gone through the options, like
how much will it cost to look for the leak, and assuming
it's found, what are the range of repair costs, etc. But
then we don't have the experience of the HVAC guys either
to know how it typically turns out, the complications, how
long the repairs last, etc.


Guess it is like most anything else, just a general incompenent service
people. I am not knocking all of them as I worked in a plant as an
electrician and instrument man myself. Some of us were good and some were
just along for the ride.


Certainly the first HVAC guy that never went to look at the
furnace half of the system meet the definition of incompetent.
I think they wound up going with the Trane 16 Seer system.
I recommended they find a Rheem/Ruud dealer and get a quote from
them too, but they were in a hurry.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message

stuff snipped

What is it with the AC system that a simple leak can not be found ? Often
traces of oil will be on the lines. Can't some dye be put in that glows
under UV ? There are several kinds of leak detectors. The ultra sonic,
and
the chemical sniffer type. That is not including the very old propane
cylinder type for the R-22.

Yes, there are lots of ways to detect leaks and I would certainly entertain
one of them before I forked out $5K for a new unit to replace one that's
only 5 years old.

At 5 years old I would think there would be some kind of warrenty.

Precisely. In reading about service companies that rip people off, it seems
a common practice is to replace a unit like that, take it back, clean it up,
and sell it as new. Here's another excerpt from

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ford-homeowner

Still others show the homeowner the contact point on the motor. It is a
spot with a burn mark that stems from the initial start-up. It is normal,
but the scammer will tell the homeowner that the house is in danger of
burning down.
Then there are the creative flim-flam artists.

''They tell people that they can't fix leaks because of environmental
regulations, that they have to get a new unit,'' Safford said.

The fraudulent companies also specialize in replacing units with old ones
taken off other houses.

''They'll paint it, and people think they're getting a new unit,'' Herrick
said.

In Mount Dora, a longtime customer of Jimmy's Electric fell victim to a scam
last month, said Jane Stoothoff with the Mount Dora company.

The customer, an elderly woman, was persuaded to buy an air conditioner for
nearly $3,000 - even though the unit she had was only five years old. It had
just been checked and found to be in good working order, Stoothoff said. The
parts were still under warranty.

Stoothoff said the elderly customer ''thought it was us.''

''They scare these old people to death,'' Stoothoff said of the phony
companies.

Ed Touey, a spokesman for the state Department of Business and Professional
Regulation, said customers should check to see whether the contractor has a
license before hiring him.

''Older people, they come from a generation that was trusting, and it's just
not like that anymore,'' he said

--

Bobby G.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:37:43 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:


''Older people, they come from a generation that was trusting, and it's just
not like that anymore,'' he said

Let's not romanticize the past. Chimney shakers and other scam
artists have always been with us. My ma sicced the States Attorney
after a chimney shaker 50 years ago. Got her money back too.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:37:43 -0400, "Robert Green"

''Older people, they come from a generation that was trusting, and it's
just
not like that anymore,'' he said

Let's not romanticize the past.

FWIW, I didn't write that, just quoted it.


Chimney shakers and other scam
artists have always been with us. My ma sicced the States Attorney
after a chimney shaker 50 years ago. Got her money back too.

Why am I not surprised that you come from a long line of "siccers" who can't
be conned easily (or for long). Good for her. As yes, I have no desire to
go back to the past. It was a whole lot worse in almost every dimension.
Remember the hippie era when so many people took off to live in communes?
I'll bet very few exist because people just don't seem to take to
anarchistic socialism naturally.

--
Bobby G.

On 2015-07-22, trader_4 wrote:
A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.

Makes me sooo glad I live in a part of the country that requires no
AC.

nb

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 07:22:17 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

Dateline NBC investigates air conditioning repairmen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK_rkvZeXdU

Angie's List HVAC Contractor Scams (advice)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Wk_O3C6i0

As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

thats a great idea..

did you wire it up for a fixed speed or have some way to select speed taps or ?

I'd prolly just hard wire it for the highest speed and call it done.

Mark


Mark

On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 1:18:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

thats a great idea..

did you wire it up for a fixed speed or have some way to select speed taps or ?

I'd prolly just hard wire it for the highest speed and call it done.

Mark


Mark

It was the condenser fan and the original was single speed ECM,
so no need to rewire it for speeds, etc.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 22 Jul 2015 07:22:17 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the

One would think.

evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved.

Unless they make a mistake on installation.

If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad

Well, only if you have AC skills.

thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported

Just talked to a friend who lives in Atlanta now. He used to live in a
co-op on East 57th St. in NYC, until earlier this year. Said the room
AC in the living room had been there since 1965 and was still working.

here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

On 7/22/2015 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:

Reminds me of when I went to a different mechanic than I normally went to
and they insisted that to change the fog light bulb on my Honda they had to
remove the bumper. I told them NOT to change the bulb, had my wife drive me
immediately to the shop and yanked my car then and there.

Remove the bumper to change a bulb? I really laced into the shop manager
because such a claim doesn't even pass the smell/common sense test.
Finally, he said "we looked it up and you're right - it takes removing two
Phillips screws from the lamp housing to change the bulb." But by that
time, considering how obstinate the original technician was about needing to
pull the bumper, they could not reclaim any semblance of trust.

Reminds me of the time on the NJ Turnpike where during a gas-up and oil
check I came back to the car very unexpectedly and caught the SOB standing
with a oil can in his hands while he checked under the hood. Seems he was
dribbling oil on the engine to make it seem it was leaking.

Apparently another favorite trick was to take some iron filings and put them
in a place where it looks like bare metal is being scraped away. Or to take
the same oilcan and spray some oil on the shocks to imply they're leaking.

--
Bobby G.

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:


Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.


There's risks in any case. Though, replace the entire
system has the most money pay out with the least risk
to the HVAC guys.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:26:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.


There's risks in any case. Though, replace the entire
system has the most money pay out with the least risk
to the HVAC guys.
Except for their massive loss of reputation when the word gets out.
My AC was 40 years old and still working just fine when a 5? year old
system was replaced in the house 2 doors down and the unit literallyu
dropped in my lap. Figured it was as good a time as any to change it.
(same age as my "new" furnace (which I had replaced at the same time
the neighbour had A/C installed).

Ends up they had the furnace replaced and the HVAC guys sold him an
"entire system". His loss, my gain.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:26:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.


There's risks in any case. Though, replace the entire
system has the most money pay out with the least risk
to the HVAC guys.


And the most profitable, considering a fat markup on the equipment
plus the labor.

On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:


Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.



What $1000? I had two refrigeration repairs this year. One was an air
dryer with a 19# charge. That was $640. Leak was easily found and
repaired. The other was an older office AC, similar setup to a home
unit and that was $500. Leak (second time) has not been found and a
sealer was added. Yes, it is a bit of a crap shoot, but $500 and a
chance it is fixed is better than just putting out $5000 with assurance
of no leak.

Customer should have been given the option. Five years is not old. At
15 years I may agree to replace.

You are starting to sound like General Motors. I had a problem with a
heated seat. It was less than 3 years, but over the 36,000 miles. They
wanted $670 to replace the seat because the $10 element burned out.
They suggested I buy a new car. A $35,000 solution to a $10 problem.
BTW, I did eventually buy a new car, but that was my last GM.

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:


Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.



What $1000? I had two refrigeration repairs this year. One was an air
dryer with a 19# charge. That was $640. Leak was easily found and
repaired.

I raised the example of where the leak was a failed evaporator,
which is a common failure.
I would think that could be $1000. First you have to find the
leak. Then you have to recover the refrigerant. Then you have
to replace the evaporator, flow nitrogen through it while brazing
it, then pressurize it with nitrogen to leak test, then evacuate
which takes time just standing there, then recharge it. Besides
all the time, you have the cost of the new evaporator, refrigerant,
etc.



The other was an older office AC, similar setup to a home
unit and that was $500. Leak (second time) has not been found and a
sealer was added. Yes, it is a bit of a crap shoot, but $500 and a
chance it is fixed is better than just putting out $5000 with assurance
of no leak.

Customer should have been given the option. Five years is not old. At
15 years I may agree to replace.

If the above attempt at leak fixing didn't work, would you still
have paid the $600?


You are starting to sound like General Motors. I had a problem with a
heated seat. It was less than 3 years, but over the 36,000 miles. They
wanted $670 to replace the seat because the $10 element burned out.
They suggested I buy a new car. A $35,000 solution to a $10 problem.
BTW, I did eventually buy a new car, but that was my last GM.

I'm only trying to look at it from the HVAC guy's perspective.
After doing all of the above, it could turn out that the system
still has another problem and then what? Who eats all the work
already done? I guess the HVAC guy could just price that in,
that for every X systems where the leak fix works, there are Y
where they wind up eating Z dollars, so cover that by increasing
the price of the repair on all of them.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:--Odna-
On 7/23/2015 9:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green

stuff snipped

Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

What $1000? I had two refrigeration repairs this year. One was an air
dryer with a 19# charge. That was $640. Leak was easily found and
repaired. The other was an older office AC, similar setup to a home
unit and that was $500. Leak (second time) has not been found and a
sealer was added. Yes, it is a bit of a crap shoot, but $500 and a
chance it is fixed is better than just putting out $5000 with assurance
of no leak.

And you know how these systems work. Imagine being a poor schlub that
doesn't know one bit about A/C and has to depend on the technician's word
that what he says is wrong is actually true. One thing's for sure. The
next time a tech comes out, I am going to set up one of my covert CCTV
cameras to make sure he's not up to any hanky-panky.

Customer should have been given the option. Five years is not old. At
15 years I may agree to replace.

Agreed. The fact that they went straight to the new system without testing
for leaks pretty much tells me they're out to replace, not to repair.

You are starting to sound like General Motors. I had a problem with a
heated seat. It was less than 3 years, but over the 36,000 miles. They
wanted $670 to replace the seat because the $10 element burned out.
They suggested I buy a new car. A $35,000 solution to a $10 problem.
BTW, I did eventually buy a new car, but that was my last GM.

There's an old IBM joke about flat tires that covers this:

A salesman, a mathematician, and a computer programmer are driving down the
road when the car they are in gets a flat tire. The mathematician says they
should sell the old tire and buy a new one. The computer programmer says
they should drive the car around the block and see if the tire fixes itself.
The salesman says that they should buy a new car.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:13:31 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Customer should have been given the option. Five years is not old. At
15 years I may agree to replace.


My furnace/AC is 17 years old. Day before yesterday I had water all
over the basement floor. It's got 3 drains that go to 3/4 PVC.
I took off the exhaust vent to get at the panel covering the
evaporator and verified the evap trough wasn't draining.
Nice and clean in there. Surprised me.
Cut the PVC on the vertical and taped a hose to it leading to the
sump. Fixed. I'll replace most of the PVC later.
There's about 35' of it.

You are starting to sound like General Motors. I had a problem with a
heated seat. It was less than 3 years, but over the 36,000 miles. They
wanted $670 to replace the seat because the $10 element burned out.
They suggested I buy a new car. A $35,000 solution to a $10 problem.
BTW, I did eventually buy a new car, but that was my last GM.

GM has been very good to me. Never bought a new one and I never
bought one with heated seats. Only one I didn't grow fond of was a
'72 Nova.
Otherwise I've run them to 150-180k miles with minimal issues, and
never had one strand me. They all rusted out.
But if I was a new car buyer, I'd probably go Hyundai. Three of my
daughters bought Santa Fe's.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 23 Jul 2015 06:05:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:53 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:


Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

He shouldnt' have done all that work without knowing it would work when
he was done.

He should have explained the problem to the customer and told him the
customer has two choices, A) For the repairman to put enough
refrgerant in the system so he can test the system. If it tests good,
he'll be able to re-use what he uesd when he evacuates it and then puts
it back in. The customer will owe for the refridge and fixing the
leak. $m

If it tests bad, the customer has to pay for the refrirgerant and the
service call. $n Or he can go ahead and fix whatever else is
broken. $p

Or, he should tell the customer at the same time, B) I can just fix the
leak I found, but the system might not work because of other problems.
I'll tell you what's needed then and you can decide whether or not to go
further If you say no, then you'll just owe for my fixing the leak, and
recharging, which is $m, like above.

If you say yes, it's $p.

The expensive complete repair comes out the same price.

The two paths to get there, if not completed, are different prices,

Don't tell me the right choice is to sell the man an AC he doesn't need.

On Saturday, July 25, 2015 at 5:15:51 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:

Suppose you're the HVAC guy, you put all the time into tracking
down the leak, capturing the refrigerant, brazing in a new
evaporator while flowing nitrogen, evacuating for an hour+,
recharging..... and then it turns out there was another problem,
eg the compressor is bad too, and it still doesn't work?
Who eats the $1000? I suspect the HVAC guys have been down
that road before.

He shouldnt' have done all that work without knowing it would work when
he was done.


Good grief. There are all kinds of repairs where you don't
know for sure if it's going to work or if it's going to last.
A repair guy isn't superman with X-ray vision. You could fix
one leak and maybe they know from experience that with the
crap systems today that only last 10 to 15 years, that once
you have one leak, you typically have more in another year
or two. I'm not saying I know that for a fact, just that
just maybe the companies involved may know from experience more
than those of us that don't service these every day. Also, these
systems are greatly affected by the competence of the installers.
If you don't give a damn, contaminate the thing when you
install it, then they are not going to last, have a higher
failure rate, etc. How about the tech sees a tag on the eqpt that
says "XYZ HVAC" and he knows they are shysters and their systems
have lots of problems?



He should have explained the problem to the customer and told him the
customer has two choices, A) For the repairman to put enough
refrgerant in the system so he can test the system. If it tests good,
he'll be able to re-use what he uesd when he evacuates it and then puts
it back in. The customer will owe for the refridge and fixing the
leak. $m


As reported, he topped it off a month or so ago and it worked
for a month until apparently the refrigerant was gone, again.


Or, he should tell the customer at the same time, B) I can just fix the
leak I found, but the system might not work because of other problems.

And then after $500 or $1000 worth of work, the customer says
"you didn't fix it, I'm not paying". You obviously don't have
experience with how many people operate today. They forget
what was told to them and/or ignore what's in writing. Or you
fix it and six months later, it craps out again. Many customers
are going to be kind of like you..... "Mr. Repair guy, you
should have made sure that it was going to last before you fixed it."
With a new system, you avoid all that.



Don't tell me the right choice is to sell the man an AC he doesn't need.

You're jumping to the conclusion that a new system is totally
unjustified. It's possible the companies have
experience and know what often happens and are basing their advice
in part on that. And I never tried to tell you or anyone that the
right choice was a new system. In fact, in the original post, I said
that if it were my system, I would have insisted they search for
the source of the actual leak and then make the determination.
But on the other hand, these systems
seem to last 10 to 15 years today. This one was already 5 years old
with most of that previous history unknown.
I'm not sure how much more I'd put into it. That
original service call was probably $200+. Fixing a leak, even if
it doesn't involve a new evaporator, etc is going to cost hundreds
more.

Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message news:F8Wdnb7UBL-

stuff snipped

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

Especially one that's only five years old. I am sure they took into account
that she was unlikely to investigate further or that it was unlikely she
knew, as you and many other do, that leaks can be detected IF you use the
proper equipment. Saddens me to see vendors try to rip people off like
that. )-:

Reminds me of when I went to a different mechanic than I normally went to
and they insisted that to change the fog light bulb on my Honda they had to
remove the bumper. I told them NOT to change the bulb, had my wife drive me
immediately to the shop and yanked my car then and there.

Remove the bumper to change a bulb? I really laced into the shop manager
because such a claim doesn't even pass the smell/common sense test.
Finally, he said "we looked it up and you're right - it takes removing two
Phillips screws from the lamp housing to change the bulb." But by that
time, considering how obstinate the original technician was about needing to
pull the bumper, they could not reclaim any semblance of trust.

Reminds me of the time on the NJ Turnpike where during a gas-up and oil
check I came back to the car very unexpectedly and caught the SOB standing
with a oil can in his hands while he checked under the hood. Seems he was
dribbling oil on the engine to make it seem it was leaking.

Apparently another favorite trick was to take some iron filings and put them
in a place where it looks like bare metal is being scraped away. Or to take
the same oilcan and spray some oil on the shocks to imply they're leaking.

Nowadays, ripped off? That is your fault. Most every where they try to
rip you off. I do most maintenance myself even if I have to invest some
special tools. Gives me peace of mind. Only thing I am not good at is
carpentry. Maybe because I am lefty.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Nowadays, ripped off? That is your fault.

Respectfully disagree, Mr. Hwang. To be able to protect yourself from
fraudsters typically requires having a lot of information and education the
average person just doesn't have. It's not just a problem with cars, but
with home repairs, choosing doctors, etc.

Say you're on the NJ Turnpike and you stop for gas and while you're getting
fueled you go to the men's room. When you come back to the car, a mechanic,
acting like a genuine hero, says (after sprinkling iron filings) your fan
belt is going to fail in very short order. If you're the average guy and
not much of a mechanic, you'd think about what happens if your fan fails
somewhere further down the road, or at night and perhaps decide to let him
"adjust it."

Most every where they try to rip you off.

I wouldn't say most everywhere, but it's getting more and more prevalent as
technology gets more and more complicated. Compare the Chrysler Air Temp
furnance (from the 40's) that was here when I moved in. I could fix it
myself because it was utterly simple. Not so the modern furnace. How many
people (outside of AHR) know what a draft inducer motor is or why such a
(relatively) cheap item could cause total furnace failure?

I do most maintenance myself even if I have to invest some
special tools. Gives me peace of mind.

I used to, too but age has curtailed a lot of my ability to do things like
crawl under cars. Worse, yet, when I watch people work I often shudder at
how poorly they've been trained.

Only thing I am not good at is carpentry. Maybe because I am lefty.

(-; You "sinister" person, you!

http://wordinfo.info/unit/3777/s:and

In the study of origins, it was always better to be "right" than wrong, or
even "left"!
Words associated with the right side are generally complimentary or have
signified something desirable, but those pointing to the left are quite the
opposite. For example, even in modern times, everyone tries to get up on the
"right" side of the bed and hopes to stay on the "right" side of one's boss;
that is, if the person is in his/her "right" mind.

Other languages reflect the same bias in favor of the right and against the
left. In Latin, the word for "right" is dexter, from which has come the
English word dexterous or dextrous; meaning "skillful". This is what a
person who uses the "right" hand is expected to be.

An ambidextrous person should be even more skillful, since he is described
as having two "right hands.

On the other hand, the Latin sinister is the left hand, that is, the wrong
hand. Furthermore, left-handers were thought to be unlucky.

In Roman augury, or fortune telling, birds that appeared on the left side
were interpreted as being bad luck; however, those on the right side
presaged good luck. Now, in modern English applications, sinister means evil
or ominous.

"Lefties" have not been regarded with a positive attitude even in French and
Old English
The French word for "left" is gauche (GOHSH), which indicates awkwardness or
lack of social graces. "A guest who drinks from the finger bowl, no matter
how dexterously he handles it, is still gauche."

English also has favored the right over the left. The word "right" developed
from Old English riht, which meant "to lead straight; to guide; to rule."
Left evolved from Old English lyft, which meant "weak".

English prejudice against the left can be seen in such terms as "two left
feet", meaning "awkward", and "left-handed compliment", which is not
considered as a compliment!

-Excerpts from The Story Behind the Word by Morton S. Freeman;
iSi Press; Philadelphia; 1985; pages 228-229.

"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Nowadays, ripped off? That is your fault.

Respectfully disagree, Mr. Hwang. To be able to protect yourself from
fraudsters typically requires having a lot of information and
education the average person just doesn't have. It's not just a
problem with cars, but with home repairs, choosing doctors, etc.

Say you're on the NJ Turnpike and you stop for gas and while you're
getting fueled you go to the men's room. When you come back to the
car, a mechanic, acting like a genuine hero, says (after sprinkling
iron filings) your fan belt is going to fail in very short order. If
you're the average guy and not much of a mechanic, you'd think about
what happens if your fan fails somewhere further down the road, or at
night and perhaps decide to let him "adjust it."

Most every where they try to rip you off.

I wouldn't say most everywhere, but it's getting more and more
prevalent as technology gets more and more complicated. Compare the
Chrysler Air Temp furnance (from the 40's) that was here when I moved
in. I could fix it myself because it was utterly simple. Not so the
modern furnace. How many people (outside of AHR) know what a draft
inducer motor is or why such a (relatively) cheap item could cause
total furnace failure?

I do most maintenance myself even if I have to invest some
special tools. Gives me peace of mind.

I used to, too but age has curtailed a lot of my ability to do things
like crawl under cars. Worse, yet, when I watch people work I often
shudder at how poorly they've been trained.

I couldn't agree more. I used to do all my own repairs (home, appliance,
auto, electrical, etc.) but can't anymore. Technology has taken over,
and what used to be a simple auto repair takes lots of tech knowledge and
sometimes special tools and meters. I gave up about five years ago. Now
I hire repairmen, and I have to ask myself 'do I trust this repairman, or
not?', and live with the consequences, good or bad.

Long story short...A few months ago, my 18 year old AC was not cooling.
A new fan was installed, but the problem persisted. Then I was told it
was the compressor, and that they could replace the entire system,
including the furnace, for $10K. I called another company in for a second
opinion. The second opinion was that the first company installed the
wrong fan. It turned out they did install the wrong fan. I went back to
the first company, and they had egg on their face. They came out and
installed the proper fan, and it's been cool since.

I complained to their customer service manager, that they almost cost me
$10K, and I asked for reimbursement for the second opinion. They
reimbursed me for the cost of the second opinion, and gave me a 12-month
service contract on both my solar and HVAC equipment, free.

Only thing I am not good at is carpentry. Maybe because I am lefty.

(-; You "sinister" person, you!

http://wordinfo.info/unit/3777/s:and

In the study of origins, it was always better to be "right" than
wrong, or even "left"!
Words associated with the right side are generally complimentary or
have signified something desirable, but those pointing to the left are
quite the opposite. For example, even in modern times, everyone tries
to get up on the "right" side of the bed and hopes to stay on the
"right" side of one's boss; that is, if the person is in his/her
"right" mind.

Other languages reflect the same bias in favor of the right and
against the left. In Latin, the word for "right" is dexter, from which
has come the English word dexterous or dextrous; meaning "skillful".
This is what a person who uses the "right" hand is expected to be.

An ambidextrous person should be even more skillful, since he is
described as having two "right hands.

On the other hand, the Latin sinister is the left hand, that is, the
wrong hand. Furthermore, left-handers were thought to be unlucky.

In Roman augury, or fortune telling, birds that appeared on the left
side were interpreted as being bad luck; however, those on the right
side presaged good luck. Now, in modern English applications, sinister
means evil or ominous.

"Lefties" have not been regarded with a positive attitude even in
French and Old English
The French word for "left" is gauche (GOHSH), which indicates
awkwardness or lack of social graces. "A guest who drinks from the
finger bowl, no matter how dexterously he handles it, is still
gauche."

English also has favored the right over the left. The word "right"
developed from Old English riht, which meant "to lead straight; to
guide; to rule." Left evolved from Old English lyft, which meant
"weak".

English prejudice against the left can be seen in such terms as "two
left feet", meaning "awkward", and "left-handed compliment", which is
not considered as a compliment!

-Excerpts from The Story Behind the Word by Morton S. Freeman;
iSi Press; Philadelphia; 1985; pages 228-229.




This left/thing has always fascinated me. I once heard that left handed
people were on average, smarter than right handed people. I began
observing left handed people, and they were mostly my bosses. I'm right
handed.

On 7/22/2015 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/22/2015 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

If it leaks out in a month, should be a fairly
slow leak. Ought to be possible to find and
fix the leak.

I've got a couple "friends" who had a leaky system.
I'd valved it off, and put in some test charge,
to determine if it was indoor or outdoor leak.
Called several times to follow up. No answer. Met
them later, and they told me they "just had the
system replaced". But aparently, not by me. Some
friends, eh?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:49:10 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 7/22/2015 9:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/22/2015 10:22 AM, trader_4 wrote:
So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed.

My thoughts are not mixed. She got screwed. Put some dye in it that
shows up under a blacklight and come back in a couple of weeks. Can't
find it? Put some sealer in it. Only of those things don't work do you
think about replacing the system.

If it leaks out in a month, should be a fairly
slow leak. Ought to be possible to find and
fix the leak.

I've got a couple "friends" who had a leaky system.
I'd valved it off, and put in some test charge,
to determine if it was indoor or outdoor leak.
Called several times to follow up. No answer. Met
them later, and they told me they "just had the
system replaced". But aparently, not by me. Some
friends, eh?

It happens a lot. There seems to be some kind of dynamic going on
where people don't like to see a friend making money if it's "off
them". My Dad was a RE Broker and told his friends if they were
buying a new house to go thru him and he could get them half the
commission back. A few would but most would just go straight to the
Home Sales Office and cut him out and also cut themselves out to the
tune of thousand$ in lost commission they could have split. A lot of
the time they's day 'Oh we didn't want to bother you" as if anyone
would be bothered by spending a couple hours to make a couple
thousand... not to mention the people themselves were also losing out
on a couple thousand.

On 7/23/2015 10:03 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:49:10 -0400, Stormin Mormon
them later, and they told me they "just had the
system replaced". But aparently, not by me. Some
friends, eh?

It happens a lot. There seems to be some kind of dynamic going on
where people don't like to see a friend making money if it's "off
them". My Dad was a RE Broker and told his friends if they were
buying a new house to go thru him and he could get them half the
commission back. A few would but most would just go straight to the
Home Sales Office and cut him out and also cut themselves out to the
tune of thousand$ in lost commission they could have split. A lot of
the time they's day 'Oh we didn't want to bother you" as if anyone
would be bothered by spending a couple hours to make a couple
thousand... not to mention the people themselves were also losing out
on a couple thousand.


Some people refuse to do business with close friends,
figures it risks the friendship. One of the men I
consider a close friend, just exactly that. Had AC
put into his house, but not by me.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

Miss Recktum, I've sent you the article below because you are no doubt
fascinated with stories of air conditioning. Let me know how you likes it.
LOL


"trader_4" wrote in message
...

A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:13:35 -0700, "Colon Edmud Jackass Burchese of
Ladyboise, Idaho" wrote:

Miss Recktum, I've sent you the article below because you are no doubt
fascinated with stories of air conditioning. Let me know how you likes it.
LOL


"trader_4" wrote in message
...

A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


Way too long to read, Coloon...use SOUNDBITES! LOLOK

"NEMO" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:13:35 -0700, "Colon Edmud Jackass Burchese of
Ladyboise, Idaho" wrote:

Miss Recktum, I've sent you the article below because you are no doubt
fascinated with stories of air conditioning. Let me know how you likes it.
LOL


"trader_4" wrote in message
...

A friend of mine lives in NC and his GF just had an AC experience.
Started about a month ago, when the central AC was not cooling
sufficiently.
Setup is a condo with a gas furnace in a crawl space, plus 2 ton AC.
AC part is 5 years old. She called an HVAC company, they came out,
diagnosed it was low on charge, never even went to look at furnace
half, probably because it was in the crawl space and they were lazy.
So, they recharged it. In about a month, it was down, not working
again.

So, this time that company plus at least one other, told her it's
leaking, don't know where, not worth trying to find the leak, you
need a new system. So, for $3500 she's getting a new 16 SEER.
My thoughts on this are mixed. On the one hand, you'd think that
they would at least go sniffing for the leak. If it's just the
evaporator, a leaking braze joint, shrader valve, it could be fixed
for what? Less than $1000 I would think. The HVAC guys have big incentive
to sell a whole new system, but I can see other issues too. With
a new system, they know it's solved. If they replace an evaporator,
maybe it still has other problems too, and then what? Who eats
the cost of the failed attempt, etc.....

If it was me, I would have insisted on looking for the leak, which
as significant as it was, I would think would be easy to find. Bad
thing here is that new systems don't seem to last long. As I reported
here a month ago, the fancy ECM condenser fan on my 3 year old system
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


Way too long to read, Coloon...use SOUNDBITES! LOLOK


Hey! These folkses on alt.home.repair are expurts in their fields, ya'
know?

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:09:14 -0700, "Colon Edmud Jackass Burchese of
Ladyboise, Idaho" wrote:

"NEMO" wrote in message ...
just failed. Fortunately I was able to replace it with a conventional
motor for $85.


Way too long to read, Coloon...use SOUNDBITES! LOLOK


Hey! These folkses on alt.home.repair are expurts in their fields, ya'
know?

Hey! That's more like it! LOLOK