My pool pump has sub-panel with a 50A 240V GFI Circuit Breaker.

It was not coming on this morning.

First
-----
The breaker, which also has a GFI, wasn't tripping but I measured no
voltage at the load side.

I looked at the pump wiring which was all fine.

If I pushed the Test button then the breaker tripped.

A little later
--------------
I did nothing, but then the breaker would not trip even pushing the Test
button. Still no output on the load side. The load was still connected.

A little later
-------------
The breaker would trip immediately even with the load disconnected
completely.

Fourth
------
I bypassed the breaker temporarily and the pump comes on (there is still
another breaker at the main panel but not a GFI breaker so it was okay
for a few seconds).

So I wonder if this is just a bad breaker or if I'm missing something.
It's over $100 for a replacement. I ordered one because I can't imagine
what else it could be since it trips with no load connected.

This is the breaker: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PWC17M

Couldn't find one in the SF Bay Area at any price, but I found a
supplier in Sacramento for $102 plus tax and shipping.

I was thinking of putting in a fuse block temporarily with two 50A fuses
while waiting for the new breaker. There would be no GFI protection but
it's no big deal for now. We are not using the pool and no one touches
the equipment but me.

Hey Sailor!
Back in Nam we were trippin' all the tyme.
LOL

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 3:31:56 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
My pool pump has sub-panel with a 50A 240V GFI Circuit Breaker.

It was not coming on this morning.

First
-----
The breaker, which also has a GFI, wasn't tripping but I measured no
voltage at the load side.

I looked at the pump wiring which was all fine.

If I pushed the Test button then the breaker tripped.

A little later
--------------
I did nothing, but then the breaker would not trip even pushing the Test
button. Still no output on the load side. The load was still connected.

A little later
-------------
The breaker would trip immediately even with the load disconnected
completely.

Fourth
------
I bypassed the breaker temporarily and the pump comes on (there is still
another breaker at the main panel but not a GFI breaker so it was okay
for a few seconds).

So I wonder if this is just a bad breaker or if I'm missing something.
It's over $100 for a replacement. I ordered one because I can't imagine
what else it could be since it trips with no load connected.

This is the breaker: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PWC17M

Couldn't find one in the SF Bay Area at any price, but I found a
supplier in Sacramento for $102 plus tax and shipping.

I was thinking of putting in a fuse block temporarily with two 50A fuses
while waiting for the new breaker. There would be no GFI protection but
it's no big deal for now. We are not using the pool and no one touches
the equipment but me.

If by tripping when the load is disconnected you mean
what I think you mean, which is you've unhooked the
two hot wires from the breaker, then yes the breaker is
bad. Only other possible thing there is this GFCI breaker
has a connection to the neutral. Did you verify that's
tight? Doubt that would account for the behavior though.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 12:31:49 -0700, sms
wrote:

My pool pump has sub-panel with a 50A 240V GFI Circuit Breaker.

It was not coming on this morning.

First
-----
The breaker, which also has a GFI, wasn't tripping but I measured no
voltage at the load side.

I looked at the pump wiring which was all fine.

If I pushed the Test button then the breaker tripped.

A little later
--------------
I did nothing, but then the breaker would not trip even pushing the Test
button. Still no output on the load side. The load was still connected.

A little later
-------------
The breaker would trip immediately even with the load disconnected
completely.

Fourth
------
I bypassed the breaker temporarily and the pump comes on (there is still
another breaker at the main panel but not a GFI breaker so it was okay
for a few seconds).

So I wonder if this is just a bad breaker or if I'm missing something.
It's over $100 for a replacement. I ordered one because I can't imagine
what else it could be since it trips with no load connected.

This is the breaker: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PWC17M

Couldn't find one in the SF Bay Area at any price, but I found a
supplier in Sacramento for $102 plus tax and shipping.

I was thinking of putting in a fuse block temporarily with two 50A fuses
while waiting for the new breaker. There would be no GFI protection but
it's no big deal for now. We are not using the pool and no one touches
the equipment but me.

I just replaced a bad GFI outlet that was in an outdoor fixture. It
would trip within a second even with no load connected. When I got it
back inside to look at it, I could see it was full of whispy white
spider webs. Every hole (3 per outlet) plus the holes on the back
where the wires attach were white.

On 5/28/2015 2:41 PM, Pat wrote:

I just replaced a bad GFI outlet that was in an outdoor fixture. It
would trip within a second even with no load connected. When I got it
back inside to look at it, I could see it was full of whispy white
spider webs. Every hole (3 per outlet) plus the holes on the back
where the wires attach were white.

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday. The breaker for
the pool pump at the main panel is only 20A anyway so the 50A GFI at the
sub-panel was a little over-kill. Pump is running and I didn't get any
shocks.

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

My pool pump has sub-panel with a 50A 240V GFI Circuit Breaker.

It was not coming on this morning.

First
-----
The breaker, which also has a GFI, wasn't tripping but I measured no
voltage at the load side.

I looked at the pump wiring which was all fine.

If I pushed the Test button then the breaker tripped.

A little later
--------------
I did nothing, but then the breaker would not trip even pushing the Test
button. Still no output on the load side. The load was still connected.

A little later
-------------
The breaker would trip immediately even with the load disconnected
completely.

Fourth
------
I bypassed the breaker temporarily and the pump comes on (there is still
another breaker at the main panel but not a GFI breaker so it was okay
for a few seconds).

So I wonder if this is just a bad breaker or if I'm missing something.
It's over $100 for a replacement. I ordered one because I can't imagine
what else it could be since it trips with no load connected.

This is the breaker: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PWC17M

Couldn't find one in the SF Bay Area at any price, but I found a
supplier in Sacramento for $102 plus tax and shipping.

I was thinking of putting in a fuse block temporarily with two 50A fuses
while waiting for the new breaker. There would be no GFI protection but
it's no big deal for now. We are not using the pool and no one touches
the equipment but me.


I don't know your exact situation, but you may not need the 50 amp breaker to be a GFCI. You can put in a regular breaker and change the load breakers to GFCI or change the outlet(s) to GFCI.

It's possible that the insulation on the wire is breaking down and moisture is causing a ground fault. My guess though is a bad GFCI breaker.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:37:00 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

When I was young, I used to do that with junked electonics, like old
TVs. I save all the parts. Spend hours removing them. I still have
containers full of those old parts, mostly all are from the tube era.
I'll probably never use any of them.!!!

On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:


This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

I agree, the breaker is bad.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/28/2015 2:41 PM, Pat wrote:

I just replaced a bad GFI outlet that was in an outdoor fixture. It
would trip within a second even with no load connected. When I got it
back inside to look at it, I could see it was full of whispy white
spider webs. Every hole (3 per outlet) plus the holes on the back
where the wires attach were white.

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday. The breaker for
the pool pump at the main panel is only 20A anyway so the 50A GFI at the
sub-panel was a little over-kill. Pump is running and I didn't get any
shocks.

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.
Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:52:07 -0400, wrote:

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

He said he disconnected the wires.....

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:52:07 -0400, wrote:

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

He said he disconnected the wires.....

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 7:30:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:


This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

I agree, the breaker is bad.

The circuit boards in those things are protected by a conformal coating to protect the sensitive components, which detect the tiny leakage currents, against moisture. Most of the failures I've seen with ground fault breakers and outlets is due to power surges and or lightning. Hard wired surge arresters usually take care of that sort of problem. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 7:52:05 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/28/2015 2:41 PM, Pat wrote:

I just replaced a bad GFI outlet that was in an outdoor fixture. It
would trip within a second even with no load connected. When I got it
back inside to look at it, I could see it was full of whispy white
spider webs. Every hole (3 per outlet) plus the holes on the back
where the wires attach were white.

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday. The breaker for
the pool pump at the main panel is only 20A anyway so the 50A GFI at the
sub-panel was a little over-kill. Pump is running and I didn't get any
shocks.

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.
Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

If he could borrow or rent a megger from somewhere, he could check for electrical leakage of the insulation and equipment. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Fault Monster

On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:40:06 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:52:07 -0400, wrote:

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

He said he disconnected the wires.....
If he removed the load wires right at the GFCI breaker, it pretty
well eliminates wiring issues. If he just disconnected the pump, there
are still wires involved. Not always accurately described.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

I get new batteries for around $12 and I think it's worth it to have small UPS's all over the house with lamps plugged into them. I had the power go out one evening and a 500w backup kept one of my desk lamps with an LED bulb on for 6 hours without running down. I have 750w and 1kw units too and all electronic gear in the house is plugged into a backup. The units provide surge protection and of course everything stays on during power blinks and short power outages. I have a 1kw UPS behind my 23" monitor that keeps my workstations going during power outages along with a 500w unit running the wireless router and cable modem. My LED desk lamps have their own backup power units too so I don't skip a beat when I'm using my computers during a power outage. I'm well aware of the cost to benefit ratio for repairing electronic equipment and since I provide the labor, I find it entertaining to salvage that which others throw away. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Repair Monster

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 10:16:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:40:06 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:52:07 -0400, wrote:

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

He said he disconnected the wires.....
If he removed the load wires right at the GFCI breaker, it pretty
well eliminates wiring issues. If he just disconnected the pump, there
are still wires involved. Not always accurately described.

More often not accurately read by some folks....

wrote in message

stuff snipped

APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.

Amen. This was one of them. I tried two known-good batteries, looked for
blown fuses and burned components and decided that I could probably get a
new unit for not very much more than the price of a replacement battery.

Now that I've replaced all the desktops in the house with tablet PCs, the
built-in tablet batteries act as a UPS so I can afford to just retire the
ones that go hinky on me. That switch saved a lot of money in electricity.
Funny, my usage continually drops, but not my bill. The more I conserve,
the more they charge per kWh. )-:

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

There's great variability in the quality of outside electrical boxes. HD
sells a blister packed outlet kit with lots of foam inserts and even a tube
of sealant. When the outlet flaps are closed the units are pretty well
sealed.

I do recall on a couple of occasions when the weather conditions were just
right that condensation would form inside the outlet box and in gear like
CCTV cameras. It wouldn't take many cycles of that to cause corrosion
troubles.

--
Bobby G.

On 5/28/2015 7:16 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:40:06 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:52:07 -0400, wrote:

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

He said he disconnected the wires.....
If he removed the load wires right at the GFCI breaker, it pretty
well eliminates wiring issues. If he just disconnected the pump, there
are still wires involved. Not always accurately described.

I removed the wires at the breaker. The breaker still tripped instantly.
And prior to that, the breaker would not trip and the circuit was still
open so clearly it's at least part of the problem.

It's only about 15" of wire from the breaker to the timer and another 3'
down to the pump so it's easy to replace all that wire if moisture is
the issue.

I'll know tonight. The breaker is on the UPS truck for delivery.

On 5/28/2015 5:52 PM, wrote:

snip?

Don't be terribly surpriaed if the new one trips too. My bet is on
moisture in the cable somewhere causing a very small ground current to
flow - tripping the GFCI as it should.

No wires are connected to it on the load side.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:57:46 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

There's great variability in the quality of outside electrical boxes. HD
sells a blister packed outlet kit with lots of foam inserts and even a tube
of sealant. When the outlet flaps are closed the units are pretty well
sealed.

I do recall on a couple of occasions when the weather conditions were just
right that condensation would form inside the outlet box and in gear like
CCTV cameras. It wouldn't take many cycles of that to cause corrosion
troubles.

--
Bobby G.

Do you see many 50A GFCI "outlets"?

On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:49:31 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

I get new batteries for around $12 and I think it's worth it to have small UPS's all over the house with lamps plugged into them. I had the power go out one evening and a 500w backup kept one of my desk lamps with an LED bulb on for 6 hours without running down. I have 750w and 1kw units too and all electronic gear in the house is plugged into a backup. The units provide surge protection and of course everything stays on during power blinks and short power outages. I have a 1kw UPS behind my 23" monitor that keeps my workstations going during power outages along with a 500w unit running the wireless router and cable modem. My LED desk lamps have their own backup power units too so I don't skip a beat when I'm using my computers during a power outage. I'm well aware of the cost to benefit ratio for repairing electronic equipment and since I provide the labor, I find it entertaining to salvage that which others throw away. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Repair Monster
I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:51:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:49:31 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

I get new batteries for around $12 and I think it's worth it to have small UPS's all over the house with lamps plugged into them. I had the power go out one evening and a 500w backup kept one of my desk lamps with an LED bulb on for 6 hours without running down. I have 750w and 1kw units too and all electronic gear in the house is plugged into a backup. The units provide surge protection and of course everything stays on during power blinks and short power outages. I have a 1kw UPS behind my 23" monitor that keeps my workstations going during power outages along with a 500w unit running the wireless router and cable modem. My LED desk lamps have their own backup power units too so I don't skip a beat when I'm using my computers during a power outage. I'm well aware of the cost to benefit ratio for repairing electronic equipment and since I provide the labor, I find it entertaining to salvage that which others throw away. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Repair Monster
I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

I haven't had any trouble out of the various brands of units I've put new batteries in to get them working. If it's something other than a new $12 battery, it may not be worth a repair unless I'm simply curious as to what caused the failure. I have a 500w unit that some idiot plugged an electric heater into which caused all the magic smoke to leak out. That particular mode of failure most often happens in offices when one of the gals puts an electric heater under her desk and plugs it into the first outlet she finds. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Burnt Monster

On 5/28/2015 4:37 PM, Robert Green wrote:

snip

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

You lose the bet.

I drilled out the rivets and opened it. Nothing corroded inside. No
spiders or ants or anything like that.

There were a couple of fried components on the GFI PCB but I'm pretty
sure I did that when I jumpered across the GFI breaker from the bus bar
to the load to see if the pump was working. The reason I think the fried
components happened then is that I smelled them burning when I jumpeered
from the bus bar to the load.

There breakers are designed for outdoor use and they go inside a panel
box designed for the outdoors, so critters would have a tough time
getting in. It's very different than a GFI outlet. And outdoor GFI
outlets should be in a box with those spring-loaded covers that have
gaskets on them.

It is quite a complex breaker with all the mechanical and electrical
pieces inside. Springs flew out when I opened it. Not surprising how
much it sells for since it probably cost $20 to make, and wholesales for
$50 and retails for about $100. The $102 I paid was actually somewhat of
a bargain. Home Depot sells them online for $171, and a place in San
Francisco wanted to order me one for $150. I'll willingly pay a little
more to buy an in stock product from a local retailer, but I have no
interested in paying more when they are just going to order it and I
have to wait anyway.

One amusing thing is that when I was looking for one locally I looked up
companies that specialize in breakers. There were four. But calling all
four I found that there were really only two, they just had multiple
business names with multiple phone numbers but the calls went to the
same place.

On 5/29/2015 9:51 AM, wrote:

I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

For the smaller ones, the 7 AH batteries have come way down in price. A
Yuasa NP7-12 is about $23 and lesser brands are as little as $15. I got
some once at Lowe's for even less.

A new UPS with one of those batteries is about $40.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 1:39:24 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 5/28/2015 4:37 PM, Robert Green wrote:

snip

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

You lose the bet.

I drilled out the rivets and opened it. Nothing corroded inside. No
spiders or ants or anything like that.

There were a couple of fried components on the GFI PCB but I'm pretty
sure I did that when I jumpered across the GFI breaker from the bus bar
to the load to see if the pump was working. The reason I think the fried
components happened then is that I smelled them burning when I jumpeered
from the bus bar to the load.

There breakers are designed for outdoor use and they go inside a panel
box designed for the outdoors, so critters would have a tough time
getting in. It's very different than a GFI outlet. And outdoor GFI
outlets should be in a box with those spring-loaded covers that have
gaskets on them.

It is quite a complex breaker with all the mechanical and electrical
pieces inside. Springs flew out when I opened it. Not surprising how
much it sells for since it probably cost $20 to make, and wholesales for
$50 and retails for about $100. The $102 I paid was actually somewhat of
a bargain. Home Depot sells them online for $171, and a place in San
Francisco wanted to order me one for $150. I'll willingly pay a little
more to buy an in stock product from a local retailer, but I have no
interested in paying more when they are just going to order it and I
have to wait anyway.

One amusing thing is that when I was looking for one locally I looked up
companies that specialize in breakers. There were four. But calling all
four I found that there were really only two, they just had multiple
business names with multiple phone numbers but the calls went to the
same place.

When I read that the wires from the breaker were rather short, it made me think of the lightning and power surge damage I've seen that kill the ground fault devices. You should check with your power company about a surge arrester that plugs in between your electric meter and meter socket. That way the power company may pay for that sort of damage to your equipment. 8-)

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...?section=39659

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster

On 5/28/2015 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:


This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

I agree, the breaker is bad.

New one arrived a few minutes ago. Put it in. Works fine.

On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:51:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:49:31 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

I get new batteries for around $12 and I think it's worth it to have small UPS's all over the house with lamps plugged into them. I had the power go out one evening and a 500w backup kept one of my desk lamps with an LED bulb on for 6 hours without running down. I have 750w and 1kw units too and all electronic gear in the house is plugged into a backup. The units provide surge protection and of course everything stays on during power blinks and short power outages. I have a 1kw UPS behind my 23" monitor that keeps my workstations going during power outages along with a 500w unit running the wireless router and cable modem. My LED desk lamps have their own backup power units too so I don't skip a beat when I'm using my computers during a power outage. I'm well aware of the cost to benefit ratio for repairing electronic equipment and since I provide the labor, I find it entertaining to salvage that which others throw away. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Repair Monster
I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

I haven't had any trouble out of the various brands of units I've put new batteries in to get them working. If it's something other than a new $12 battery, it may not be worth a repair unless I'm simply curious as to what caused the failure. I have a 500w unit that some idiot plugged an electric heater into which caused all the magic smoke to leak out. That particular mode of failure most often happens in offices when one of the gals puts an electric heater under her desk and plugs it into the first outlet she finds. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Burnt Monster
I've had plenty that killed the new battery in less than 6 months -
and many more in less than a year. In my book, those are not worth
putting a battery into.

I have others that go 4 years on a battery. They ARE worth putting
batteries into.

My luck with the cheap "back-UPs" model from APC has not been good.

On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:46:21 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/29/2015 9:51 AM, wrote:

I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

For the smaller ones, the 7 AH batteries have come way down in price. A
Yuasa NP7-12 is about $23 and lesser brands are as little as $15. I got
some once at Lowe's for even less.

A new UPS with one of those batteries is about $40.
And if that $15 to $23 battery only lasts 6 months is it still worth
replacing???

And that isn't the battery used in the APC BackUPs 350 They use a
3.5Ah (+/-) 12 volt battery that has reverse from normal polarity, and
should have the F2 terminals. The cheap batteries have F1 terminals -
on the wrong side. The proper battery costs more than the 7AH standard
ups batteries -Last ones I bought were over $30, and both of my normal
battery wholesale suppliers have stopped carrying them. They carry
very limited numbers of the backwards (for the application) F1
equipped batteries, but the only way to use them reliably is to solder
the terminals on.

On Fri, 29 May 2015 15:51:05 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/28/2015 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 15:29:07 -0700, sms
wrote:


This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way.

Is this breaker indoors or outdoors? I find plain GFI outlets dont last
long outdoors, even if they are well protected. I guess moisture still
gets inside.

I agree, the breaker is bad.

New one arrived a few minutes ago. Put it in. Works fine.
Great! Thanks for posting the update. If you have time, take the old
one apart and see if it looks infested by bugs, corroded, or just bad
for no obvious reason.

Pat

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 8:03:22 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:51:46 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 19:49:31 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:13:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 18:36:13 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 6:52:15 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
"sms" wrote in message news:mk84pe$9f1

stuff snipped

Since I needed the pump running right away (I just put in phosphate
remover yesterday and it needs to be filtered out) I ran out and found a
240V 20A breaker at the surplus store for $3.25. No GFI but it'll be
okay until the GFI breaker arrives tomorrow or Monday.

That's quite a jump, then to $104 plus S&T. I wonder what makes them so
expensive?

This is not an outlet with any real openings for anything to get into
but I guess after ten years the GFI circuit failed in some way..

I hope you are going to do a post-mortem, Dr. Scharf? I would be
curious if there was any visible damage inside the case or infestation or
water damage. We anxiously await the results.

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

Anxiously awaiting the autopsy.

I only bring this up because I recently promised my wife that I would no
longer save things for parts or break them down for spare parts. I retained
the right (-: to take things apart to see if they can be repaired or to
analyze why they failed.

I just scrapped an APC UPS and I mostly complied. Only saved the cord, the
breaker, the big transformer and the metal copper strips that make up the
outlets. Bypassed juicy components that needed desoldering and testing.
Saved all the heavy wires with crimped and insulated ends.

There was a time I would have desoldered even the LEDs. Arthritis took care
of that. )-:

--
Bobby G.

I repair APC and other brands of UPS units that people toss in the trash when all that's needed is a new SLA battery. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle UPS Monster
APC Back-Ups aren't worth replacing the batteries on many times.
Smart-Ups likely worth the effort.
Net-Ups usually worth trying.

I get new batteries for around $12 and I think it's worth it to have small UPS's all over the house with lamps plugged into them. I had the power go out one evening and a 500w backup kept one of my desk lamps with an LED bulb on for 6 hours without running down. I have 750w and 1kw units too and all electronic gear in the house is plugged into a backup. The units provide surge protection and of course everything stays on during power blinks and short power outages. I have a 1kw UPS behind my 23" monitor that keeps my workstations going during power outages along with a 500w unit running the wireless router and cable modem. My LED desk lamps have their own backup power units too so I don't skip a beat when I'm using my computers during a power outage. I'm well aware of the cost to benefit ratio for repairing electronic equipment and since I provide the labor, I find it entertaining to salvage that which others throw away. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Repair Monster
I didn't say UPS were not worth while - just certain models of
certain brands are less worth attempting to fix than others. And some
cook the batteries out faster than others - to the point they are not
worth wating batteries on.

I haven't had any trouble out of the various brands of units I've put new batteries in to get them working. If it's something other than a new $12 battery, it may not be worth a repair unless I'm simply curious as to what caused the failure. I have a 500w unit that some idiot plugged an electric heater into which caused all the magic smoke to leak out. That particular mode of failure most often happens in offices when one of the gals puts an electric heater under her desk and plugs it into the first outlet she finds. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Burnt Monster
I've had plenty that killed the new battery in less than 6 months -
and many more in less than a year. In my book, those are not worth
putting a battery into.

I have others that go 4 years on a battery. They ARE worth putting
batteries into.

My luck with the cheap "back-UPs" model from APC has not been good.

I get the bulk wholesale price on 12 volt AGM SLA batteries with the 1/4" faston terminals, not the smaller terminals which many folks make the mistake of getting. The AGM batteries last longer than standard SLA batteries. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Battery Monster

wrote in message

stuff snipped

When I was young, I used to do that with junked electonics, like old
TVs. I save all the parts. Spend hours removing them. I still have
containers full of those old parts, mostly all are from the tube era.
I'll probably never use any of them.!!!

That's the conclusion I've come to. I should photograph some of this stuff
and post it to show just how old it is. IN34 diodes as thick as pencils
with paper tubes and big end caps. What hurts the most is to ditch all that
stuff and then, the next week, realize what you had thrown out last week
would be all you needed to repair a current problem.

I just finished taking apart the last of the big DC250 tape cartridges
(that's 250MB - can't back up much today with that!) to recover the nice big
thick aluminum plate that they're made with. Makes great heat sink
material.

--
Bobby G.

"sms" wrote in message
...
On 5/28/2015 4:37 PM, Robert Green wrote:

snip

I am betting the cause is critters (like Pat reported) or corrosion from
condensation. Sometimes it's both. The GFI circuitry runs hotter than
a
passive or semi-passive safety device. I have found insect spoor
inside of
outdoor CCTV bullet cams with superfine threads and "O" ring seals. They
still got in somehow, probably at the cord grommet.

You lose the bet.

Wouldn't be the first time! (-;

I drilled out the rivets and opened it. Nothing corroded inside. No
spiders or ants or anything like that.

Well, thanks anyway for the remote post-mortem. Always good to know what's
up when something fails.

There were a couple of fried components on the GFI PCB but I'm pretty
sure I did that when I jumpered across the GFI breaker from the bus bar
to the load to see if the pump was working. The reason I think the fried
components happened then is that I smelled them burning when I
jumpeered from the bus bar to the load.

That's bound to have an effect on the post-mortem analysis. Is it possible
it got fried in a surge and what you smelled was "reheated leftovers?" At
least when that happens you can say to yourself: "Now it's REALLY dead."
Sometime's that a good thing because it keeps you from wasting time trying
to track down a problem that can't be readily solved.

There breakers are designed for outdoor use and they go inside a panel
box designed for the outdoors, so critters would have a tough time
getting in.

Bugs still get my vote when it comes to getting in where they don't belong
and causing the failure of outside equipment. I even had wasps "extend" the
engine of my Volvo 142. The began building their mud nest by following the
contours of the front of the engine block, which they did with remarkable
detail. When I opened the hood of this very rarely used vehicle it looked
like the front of the engine was made out of mud.

Now I agree that an old 4 cylinder Volvo engine is pretty damn easy for bugs
to access - a lot easier than an external GFCI - but it still impresses me
to this day how they just took a human fabrication and extended it. It took
a while to figure out what happened because my first thought was "how did
all that mud get on the engine." And then "how did it get so precisely
patterned? And finally, HOLY GOD THERE ARE WASPS FLYING OUT IT AND RIGHT
TOWARDS ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's very different than a GFI outlet. And outdoor GFI
outlets should be in a box with those spring-loaded covers that have
gaskets on them.

Mine were, but as I noted, outdoor boxes (and outlets) vary greatly in their
protection against intrusion and most will allow intrusion in a strong rain
if there's anything plugged into the outlet.

It is quite a complex breaker with all the mechanical and electrical
pieces inside. Springs flew out when I opened it.

That's surprising. From what I've read about GFCI's they operate
electrically and not mechanically which is what IMHO a spring implies. I
always *hated* it when springs went a poppin' when trying to repair
something, especially something that you didn't expect to be spring loaded.

Then there's always the repair that somehow winds up with a screw left over.
I don't feel as bad about that since God/Nature has the same problem with
leftover parts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermoid_cyst

"A dermoid cyst is a teratoma of a cystic nature that contains an array of
developmentally mature, solid tissues. It frequently consists of skin, hair
follicles, and sweat glands, while other commonly found components include
clumps of long hair, pockets of sebum, blood, fat, bone, nails, teeth, eyes,
cartilage, and thyroid tissue." . . . "Such is the case of Canadian Football
League linebacker Tyrone Jones, whose teratoma was discovered when he blew a
tooth out of his nose."

Not surprising how
much it sells for since it probably cost $20 to make, and wholesales for
$50 and retails for about $100. The $102 I paid was actually somewhat of
a bargain. Home Depot sells them online for $171, and a place in San
Francisco wanted to order me one for $150. I'll willingly pay a little
more to buy an in stock product from a local retailer, but I have no
interested in paying more when they are just going to order it and I
have to wait anyway.

Ditto. Places like Amazon have had a pretty serious effect on local small
parts vendors in my area. They are even implicated in the recent business
troubles of Radio Shack.

The retail price range of your external GFCI is pretty impressive though.

One amusing thing is that when I was looking for one locally I looked up
companies that specialize in breakers. There were four. But calling all
four I found that there were really only two, they just had multiple
business names with multiple phone numbers but the calls went to the
same place.

Ever get locked out? I think there's only one locksmith in the area and he
lists under 20 different names. A real giveaway in the Yellow Pages
listings is the lack of a mailing/street address.

--
Bobby G.

"Pat" wrote in message

stuff snipped

New one arrived a few minutes ago. Put it in. Works fine.
Great! Thanks for posting the update.

+1

If you have time, take the old
one apart and see if it looks infested by bugs, corroded, or just bad
for no obvious reason.

I asked him the same thing. Scan for his reply to me. Short answer: no
bugs or obvious causes. Just inherent vice, I guess.

--
Bobby G.

"John G" wrote in message

My guess though is a bad GFCI breaker.

And we have a winner!

--
Bobby G.

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 10:20:24 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

When I was young, I used to do that with junked electonics, like old
TVs. I save all the parts. Spend hours removing them. I still have
containers full of those old parts, mostly all are from the tube era.
I'll probably never use any of them.!!!

That's the conclusion I've come to. I should photograph some of this stuff
and post it to show just how old it is. IN34 diodes as thick as pencils
with paper tubes and big end caps. What hurts the most is to ditch all that
stuff and then, the next week, realize what you had thrown out last week
would be all you needed to repair a current problem.

I just finished taking apart the last of the big DC250 tape cartridges
(that's 250MB - can't back up much today with that!) to recover the nice big
thick aluminum plate that they're made with. Makes great heat sink
material.

--
Bobby G.

A bunch of old long obsolete computers were dumped into the ocean at the missile test range before someone in charge figured out that the damn things were full of gold contacts and gold plated parts. I believe divers were sent down to retrieve the things because the water wasn't that deep. A precious metal recovery program was started after that. 8-)

[8~{} Uncle Precious Monster

wrote in message

And if that $15 to $23 battery only lasts 6 months is it still worth
replacing???

And that isn't the battery used in the APC BackUPs 350 They use a
3.5Ah (+/-) 12 volt battery that has reverse from normal polarity, and
should have the F2 terminals. The cheap batteries have F1 terminals -
on the wrong side. The proper battery costs more than the 7AH standard
ups batteries -Last ones I bought were over $30, and both of my normal
battery wholesale suppliers have stopped carrying them. They carry
very limited numbers of the backwards (for the application) F1
equipped batteries, but the only way to use them reliably is to solder
the terminals on.

When I tested it, I found it strange that I couldn't get the replacement
battery (generic 3.5Ah) to fit with the very short battery wires they use
and I had to lay it on its side to test it with the battery outside the
case. I didn't even check to see if the polarities were in reverse
locations.

It wouldn't even *dawn* on me to look because I assumed that most sane
manufacturers would stick with a universal agreement on location/polarity.
It's that way on AAAA through D's, 9 volt transistor batteries (are they
still called that?) but now that I think about it, I am not sure all car and
wheelchair batteries follow any set convention.

I am so conditioned to do "red to red and black to black" that I didn't
notice the position differences. I am sure I would have gotten it
eventually but since it was doing the same thing on all three batteries
(relay fluttering, unit will not enter backup mode) I just chucked it.

I've held on to a much older APC unit that's in a heavy steel case as a
potential project box for some future endeavor. Sadly my current skill
level at repair is opening a 12VDC trickle charger and pulling and replacing
a triac that had split in half when the unit was connected up backwards.
Big component, big terminals, nothing nearby on the PC board to melt - just
my kind of job these days. )-: I checked the APC UPS board but nothing was
visually out of the ordinary. I did realize after I chucked it that I
didn't try resetting the PB circuit breaker, but I do recall it wasn't
pushed out the way some of them are.

--
Bobby G.