On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 16:41:51 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:


http://www.horizonservicesinc.com/re...ings-explained

I've been corrected. My misunderstanding. My furnace is a "matching"
system, some how I confused the furnace as being "SEER" rated.
--
"Beatings will continue until morale improves - The Management"

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:42:02 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:

I've been corrected. My misunderstanding. My furnace is a "matching"
system, some how I confused the furnace as being "SEER" rated.

It's ok...it's ok, don't beat yourself up about it!

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 11:05:53 -0800 (PST), bob_villa
wrote:

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:42:02 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:

I've been corrected. My misunderstanding. My furnace is a "matching"
system, some how I confused the furnace as being "SEER" rated.

It's ok...it's ok, don't beat yourself up about it!

Not a chance! Even when I'm wrong, I'm still right.
--
Somtimes you just have a bad day at the dungeon

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:34:00 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 12:25 PM, wrote:

Yep, and the energy bills here are way more than $1000 a year...(gas and
electric combined) was $2500 last year.

Even if only a 10% savings, the furnace will soon pay for itself but it
should be more I hope.


Still amazed that it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I
paid 23 years ago.
Don't be surprised if this new one needs replacement in much ess
than 23 years, either!!!




No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.
All I will say is todays furnaces will NOT run 30 years. Most likely
won't run 20 without expensive repairs. Many don't make it through
warranty without issues. Other than the advantage of going to 96% you
would likely be farther ahead in dollar terms repairing the old one -
Goodman or not.

On 01/23/2015 03:45 PM, wrote:
X



No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.
All I will say is todays furnaces will NOT run 30 years. Most likely
won't run 20 without expensive repairs. Many don't make it through
warranty without issues. Other than the advantage of going to 96% you
would likely be farther ahead in dollar terms repairing the old one -
Goodman or not.




First off, the Goodman has a ten year warranty on parts and I did not
get the extended labor warranty as I can replace anything myself.

Since this furnace will easily pay for itself in energy savings in less
than ten years...if it only lasts that long it will not be the end of
the world. Like I said I may not even be living here then.


Also: I had to get /substandard/ home insurance because my furnace was
over 20 years old...so if for that reason alone...it is not worth it to
me to keep the old furnace.


Other than one company that specifically handles substandard
dwellings.../no one/ would insure a house with an over 20 furnace.
Even the "sub-standard" insurer only did so reluctantly.

Plus...after 23 years, who knows what's going to go next?
The exhaust motor is pretty burned looking and then...who would trust a
23 year old blower motor?


I am a firm believer in fixing rather than replacing
but this time I am glad I'm getting a new one.


After it's in I will see if I can get a reduction in my home insurance
from a normal insurance co.


BTW: My experience with the insurance companies led me to believe they
are /all/ a bunch of ass-holes and part of me says to stay with the more
expensive insurance so I don't have to deal with the other ones.

One of those ass-holes told me that even if I got a new furnace he would
not sell me insurance because he did not like the way the roof looked. I
told him that it was still guaranteed for five more years against
leakage but it does not leak. They do not guarantee the way it looks!
(The shingles look a little wavy but are fine)

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 16:16:42 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 03:45 PM, wrote:
X



No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.
All I will say is todays furnaces will NOT run 30 years. Most likely
won't run 20 without expensive repairs. Many don't make it through
warranty without issues. Other than the advantage of going to 96% you
would likely be farther ahead in dollar terms repairing the old one -
Goodman or not.




First off, the Goodman has a ten year warranty on parts and I did not
get the extended labor warranty as I can replace anything myself.

Since this furnace will easily pay for itself in energy savings in less
than ten years...if it only lasts that long it will not be the end of
the world. Like I said I may not even be living here then.


Also: I had to get /substandard/ home insurance because my furnace was
over 20 years old...so if for that reason alone...it is not worth it to
me to keep the old furnace.


Other than one company that specifically handles substandard
dwellings.../no one/ would insure a house with an over 20 furnace.
Even the "sub-standard" insurer only did so reluctantly.

Plus...after 23 years, who knows what's going to go next?
The exhaust motor is pretty burned looking and then...who would trust a
23 year old blower motor?


I am a firm believer in fixing rather than replacing
but this time I am glad I'm getting a new one.


After it's in I will see if I can get a reduction in my home insurance
from a normal insurance co.


BTW: My experience with the insurance companies led me to believe they
are /all/ a bunch of ass-holes and part of me says to stay with the more
expensive insurance so I don't have to deal with the other ones.

One of those ass-holes told me that even if I got a new furnace he would
not sell me insurance because he did not like the way the roof looked. I
told him that it was still guaranteed for five more years against
leakage but it does not leak. They do not guarantee the way it looks!
(The shingles look a little wavy but are fine)



The secret with insurance companies is to stay with the same one for
years. Been 32 years with the same company and they don't question
anything. Looked at changing companies and will need electrical
inspection (aluminum wiring) to get coverage at all, and replace fuse
panel with breaker panel to get decent price

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:34:07 PM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 01/23/2015 12:25 PM, wrote:

Yep, and the energy bills here are way more than $1000 a year...(gas and
electric combined) was $2500 last year.

Even if only a 10% savings, the furnace will soon pay for itself but it
should be more I hope.


Still amazed that it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I
paid 23 years ago.
Don't be surprised if this new one needs replacement in much ess
than 23 years, either!!!




No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.

You're making the right choice...I worked on a furnace for a friend recently, it's 18 yrs old and hadn't failed until then. It actually didn't totally fail either...it was short-cycling and couldn't make it passed 58 degrees. This thing is a "True Blue 90", say what? They went out of business, but they use standard stuff made by Honeywell. It had a clogged condensate collector...you could hear it gargling from the outside exhaust! This furnace had no blower door access...never saw that before! I'm fairly sure a tech would have told him he needed a new furnace.

On 01/23/2015 06:06 PM, wrote:


snip


The secret with insurance companies is to stay with the same one for
years. Been 32 years with the same company and they don't question
anything. Looked at changing companies and will need electrical
inspection (aluminum wiring) to get coverage at all, and replace fuse
panel with breaker panel to get decent price




I had no choice in the matter, the company I had been with for years
no longer is doing any business in the entire state of Wisconsin.


As much as I hate insurance companies, if I ran one...no way in hell
would I ever insure anything with aluminum wiring...do you know how
dangerous that is.

By all means, no matter what the cost...get that thing rewired.

On 01/23/2015 06:27 PM, bob_villa wrote:
either!!!




No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.

You're making the right choice...I worked on a furnace for a friend recently, it's 18 yrs old and hadn't failed until then. It actually didn't totally fail either...it was short-cycling and couldn't make it passed 58 degrees. This thing is a "True Blue 90", say what? They went out of business, but they use standard stuff made by Honeywell. It had a clogged condensate collector...you could hear it gargling from the outside exhaust! This furnace had no blower door access...never saw that before! I'm fairly sure a tech would have told him he needed a new furnace.




Here is the latest development with my old furnace. I got tired of
lighting it with a BBQ lighter so I connected a 115 volt cord directly
to the ignitor.

Plug it in and turn the furnace on ...then unplug it when the flame gets
going... turn the furnace off after it's cycled through.
Even though I have to do that about six times a day...I am reminded that
when this house was built...it was coal heat

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:05:47 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 06:06 PM, wrote:


snip


The secret with insurance companies is to stay with the same one for
years. Been 32 years with the same company and they don't question
anything. Looked at changing companies and will need electrical
inspection (aluminum wiring) to get coverage at all, and replace fuse
panel with breaker panel to get decent price




I had no choice in the matter, the company I had been with for years
no longer is doing any business in the entire state of Wisconsin.


As much as I hate insurance companies, if I ran one...no way in hell
would I ever insure anything with aluminum wiring...do you know how
dangerous that is.

By all means, no matter what the cost...get that thing rewired.
It has the "second generation" aluminum wiring and all of the devices
are the upgraded co-alr devices made for use with aluminum. Properly
wired, second generation aluminum is no worse than copper. The earlier
stuff was BAD - it cracked if you looked at it the wrong way - it was
too hard,and too brittle. The second generation aluminum behaves very
much like copper - it is soft and flexible.

There have been NO electrical issues in the house in 43 years. My Dad
was an electrician, and he wired most of the houses in this
subdivision. Before his recent death he said there is nothing wrong
with the wiring but recommended installing the co-alr devices, which I
did.
When the panel is replaced this spring the ESA inspection will be
performed, and with the certification the new insurance company will
insure the house.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:12:22 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 06:27 PM, bob_villa wrote:
either!!!




No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.

You're making the right choice...I worked on a furnace for a friend recently, it's 18 yrs old and hadn't failed until then. It actually didn't totally fail either...it was short-cycling and couldn't make it passed 58 degrees. This thing is a "True Blue 90", say what? They went out of business, but they use standard stuff made by Honeywell. It had a clogged condensate collector...you could hear it gargling from the outside exhaust! This furnace had no blower door access...never saw that before! I'm fairly sure a tech would have told him he needed a new furnace.




Here is the latest development with my old furnace. I got tired of
lighting it with a BBQ lighter so I connected a 115 volt cord directly
to the ignitor.

Plug it in and turn the furnace on ...then unplug it when the flame gets
going... turn the furnace off after it's cycled through.
Even though I have to do that about six times a day...I am reminded that
when this house was built...it was coal heat

And likely without the "automatic fireman" which kept the fire stoked
and banked.

philo wrote:
On 01/23/2015 06:06 PM, wrote:


snip


The secret with insurance companies is to stay with the same one for
years. Been 32 years with the same company and they don't question
anything. Looked at changing companies and will need electrical
inspection (aluminum wiring) to get coverage at all, and replace fuse
panel with breaker panel to get decent price




I had no choice in the matter, the company I had been with for years
no longer is doing any business in the entire state of Wisconsin.


As much as I hate insurance companies, if I ran one...no way in hell
would I ever insure anything with aluminum wiring...do you know how
dangerous that is.

By all means, no matter what the cost...get that thing rewired.
Hi,
My third house was built during copper wire crunch. 12 gauge Al with all
Cu-Al fixtures and connectors. Lived there for ~19 years. Never had a
single problem. I think it is all matter of doing it right first time.
But that Al wiring always bothered me.

On 01/23/2015 10:33 PM, wrote:
X

Here is the latest development with my old furnace. I got tired of
lighting it with a BBQ lighter so I connected a 115 volt cord directly
to the ignitor.

Plug it in and turn the furnace on ...then unplug it when the flame gets
going... turn the furnace off after it's cycled through.
Even though I have to do that about six times a day...I am reminded that
when this house was built...it was coal heat

And likely without the "automatic fireman" which kept the fire stoked
and banked.




I have no idea what the coal furnace was like here...but the basement is
still all full of pulleys. There is still a coal shovel in the basement
and I once found a lump of hard anthracite off in a corner somewhere.

To this day I'm still finding 'clinkers' in the yard

philo wrote:
On 01/23/2015 10:33 PM, wrote:
X

Here is the latest development with my old furnace. I got tired of
lighting it with a BBQ lighter so I connected a 115 volt cord directly
to the ignitor.

Plug it in and turn the furnace on ...then unplug it when the flame gets
going... turn the furnace off after it's cycled through.
Even though I have to do that about six times a day...I am reminded that
when this house was built...it was coal heat

And likely without the "automatic fireman" which kept the fire stoked
and banked.




I have no idea what the coal furnace was like here...but the basement is
still all full of pulleys. There is still a coal shovel in the basement
and I once found a lump of hard anthracite off in a corner somewhere.

To this day I'm still finding 'clinkers' in the yard
Hmm,
Must be pretty old house, maybe older than I am. I lived in a war time
built small house with gravity fed furnace once. I had supervised total
renovation of my daughter's main house built in 1912. This house is rock
solid with mostly all original wood work. Location is worth $$$, she
insisted on buying/fixing it up to modern standard. VERY seldom a
house comes on the market for sale in her neighborhood.

On 01/23/2015 10:53 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
p

I have no idea what the coal furnace was like here...but the basement is
still all full of pulleys. There is still a coal shovel in the basement
and I once found a lump of hard anthracite off in a corner somewhere.

To this day I'm still finding 'clinkers' in the yard
Hmm,
Must be pretty old house, maybe older than I am. I lived in a war time
built small house with gravity fed furnace once. I had supervised total
renovation of my daughter's main house built in 1912. This house is rock
solid with mostly all original wood work. Location is worth $$$, she
insisted on buying/fixing it up to modern standard. VERY seldom a
house comes on the market for sale in her neighborhood.


House was built in 1898 and through city records got a lot of info.

The good news is that it was not electrified until 1932 so it does not
use knob and tube.

Only a few circuits are original though...most has been added on.

The house today is worth about six times what I paid for it...but it was
completely "trashed out" when I bought it.

There was a light switch in the shower stall!!!!

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 00:05:39 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 10:53 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
p

I have no idea what the coal furnace was like here...but the basement is
still all full of pulleys. There is still a coal shovel in the basement
and I once found a lump of hard anthracite off in a corner somewhere.

To this day I'm still finding 'clinkers' in the yard
Hmm,
Must be pretty old house, maybe older than I am. I lived in a war time
built small house with gravity fed furnace once. I had supervised total
renovation of my daughter's main house built in 1912. This house is rock
solid with mostly all original wood work. Location is worth $$$, she
insisted on buying/fixing it up to modern standard. VERY seldom a
house comes on the market for sale in her neighborhood.


House was built in 1898 and through city records got a lot of info.

The good news is that it was not electrified until 1932 so it does not
use knob and tube.

Only a few circuits are original though...most has been added on.

The house today is worth about six times what I paid for it...but it was
completely "trashed out" when I bought it.

There was a light switch in the shower stall!!!!

Some houses wired as late as the mid-late '30s still used knob and
tube. but by 1932 there was an option.

On 01/23/2015 10:31 PM, wrote:




snip
It has the "second generation" aluminum wiring and all of the devices
are the upgraded co-alr devices made for use with aluminum. Properly
wired, second generation aluminum is no worse than copper. The earlier
stuff was BAD - it cracked if you looked at it the wrong way - it was
too hard,and too brittle. The second generation aluminum behaves very
much like copper - it is soft and flexible.

There have been NO electrical issues in the house in 43 years. My Dad
was an electrician, and he wired most of the houses in this
subdivision. Before his recent death he said there is nothing wrong
with the wiring but recommended installing the co-alr devices, which I
did.
When the panel is replaced this spring the ESA inspection will be
performed, and with the certification the new insurance company will
insure the house.




I never heard of 2nd generation aluminum wiring but if you say so , I
believe you.


The insurance companies that came out here made their assessment by
interviewing me and by a look at the exterior of the house.

If I had a newer furnace and the roof "looked" better I could have
gotten insurance. Since they never looked inside, I could have had cans
of gasoline stored next to the furnace for all they would have known.


One funny thing though:

I have a 2nd story porch with a very make-shift stairway going down to
the ground. I figured they'd want me to remove it...but they did say "Oh
good, a fire escape". So now I can leave it.

On 01/23/2015 10:42 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
p

I had no choice in the matter, the company I had been with for years
no longer is doing any business in the entire state of Wisconsin.


As much as I hate insurance companies, if I ran one...no way in hell
would I ever insure anything with aluminum wiring...do you know how
dangerous that is.

By all means, no matter what the cost...get that thing rewired.
Hi,
My third house was built during copper wire crunch. 12 gauge Al with all
Cu-Al fixtures and connectors. Lived there for ~19 years. Never had a
single problem. I think it is all matter of doing it right first time.
But that Al wiring always bothered me.




Some of the industrial equipment I worked on used aluminum wiring for
the power transformers. In general it was OK but if there was ever so
much as a slightly loose connection, it would burn.

No matter what, the burned lead could not (usually) be cleaned or cut
back to the point of usability and in most instances the only safe way
to repair the device would be to replace the entire transformer.

I'm totally against the stuff for wiring.

On 01/24/2015 12:43 AM, wrote:



House was built in 1898 and through city records got a lot of info.

The good news is that it was not electrified until 1932 so it does not
use knob and tube.

Only a few circuits are original though...most has been added on.

The house today is worth about six times what I paid for it...but it was
completely "trashed out" when I bought it.

There was a light switch in the shower stall!!!!

Some houses wired as late as the mid-late '30s still used knob and
tube. but by 1932 there was an option.




Fortunately it's hard-wall conduit and decent BX.

The entire house has had two major wiring upgrades and the few original
circuits are just used for lighting.


The kitchen was the biggest challenge but now has completely separate
circuits for the refrigerator, the microwave, the toaster and the coffee
maker.


When I moved in here in 1979 the house had a 30amp 115v main panel!

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 12:43:22 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Some houses wired as late as the mid-late '30s still used knob and
tube. but by 1932 there was an option.

We have a True Value in town that was a Gambles department store...the 2nd floor (only storage now) has knob and tube. The ceilings are probably 15 ft high and have bare copper on the knobs and branch off (with insulated wire) to various fixtures. I haven't found any pictures to show how they were....maybe I should take some!

philo wrote:
On 01/23/2015 10:53 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
p

I have no idea what the coal furnace was like here...but the basement is
still all full of pulleys. There is still a coal shovel in the basement
and I once found a lump of hard anthracite off in a corner somewhere.

To this day I'm still finding 'clinkers' in the yard
Hmm,
Must be pretty old house, maybe older than I am. I lived in a war time
built small house with gravity fed furnace once. I had supervised total
renovation of my daughter's main house built in 1912. This house is rock
solid with mostly all original wood work. Location is worth $$$, she
insisted on buying/fixing it up to modern standard. VERY seldom a
house comes on the market for sale in her neighborhood.


House was built in 1898 and through city records got a lot of info.

The good news is that it was not electrified until 1932 so it does not
use knob and tube.

Only a few circuits are original though...most has been added on.

The house today is worth about six times what I paid for it...but it was
completely "trashed out" when I bought it.

There was a light switch in the shower stall!!!!
Hi,
Actually daughter has a picture of her house when it was built in 1912.
Previous owner passed it on to her. Pretty faded but still in good shape
in frame.

On 01/24/2015 09:27 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:


The house today is worth about six times what I paid for it...but it was
completely "trashed out" when I bought it.

There was a light switch in the shower stall!!!!
Hi,
Actually daughter has a picture of her house when it was built in 1912.
Previous owner passed it on to her. Pretty faded but still in good shape
in frame.



Sure wish I had a photo of this place when it was new. I do know that it
was build by German craftsmen. After renovating the kitchen I found
remnants of a Milwaukee-based German newspaper from 1897 and also left
over from the wiring done in 1932...an empty pack of Lucky Strikes
(green label)

On 1/24/2015 9:49 AM, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 12:43:22 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Some houses wired as late as the mid-late '30s still used knob and
tube. but by 1932 there was an option.

We have a True Value in town that was a Gambles
department store...the 2nd floor (only storage now)
has knob and tube. The ceilings are probably 15 ft
high and have bare copper on the knobs and branch
off (with insulated wire) to various fixtures. I
haven't found any pictures to show how they were...
maybe I should take some!


I'd like some photos. Sadly, they would think
you are government agent, and they would likely
be upset with you.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

They put it in this morning.
Five hours total. The heat had dropped about 8 F by the time it was up
and running ...not too bad.